GA 633 | Be Curious and Seek Knowledge with Andy Olrich

I don't know what the right tension is for where you are now in your career if you're listening to this, right? But yeah, there's got to be some book knowledge, but there's got to be the hands-on. And anytime you think you're going really well and you're all over it, you need to immediately go and ask 3 other people how you're making them feel with the way that you're trying to get them to work, or how they're observing your work.

Today I am very excited to welcome Andy Ulbricht to the show. Now, Andy, as you'll hear, has a much, much cooler accent than I do. He, uh, as you you'll immediately identify, he is from Australia. So he's got that, that awesome Australian accent. And, uh, but we had a great, great conversation. Um, so, uh, so yeah, Andy's been at this lean thing for, for quite some time, and it's got a lot of experience, worked in a lot of different industries, and, uh, does some consulting now. And he's also a fellow podcaster, him and Patrick Adams, on a fantastic podcast. So we'll get everything linked up in the show notes, so go check, check all those links out. But, uh, but today we really just sort of get into sort of Andy's story and his journey with continuous improvement and really kind of start at the beginning and hear how he sort of learned. And we even had a fun conversation on like, what should you learn? Like, should you kind of go tools first and then people second, or people first, tools second, or does it matter? So actually had a really fun conversation, and I even pushed back on him a little bit, you know, at one point. So that was great. And then we get into just real talk as far as like, you know, what are some things that you should not do if you're trying to build and develop a strong Lean culture? Like, what are some, some things that you definitely want to avoid? So again, Andy's got a lot of experience, so he had a lot of good wisdom there. And then towards the end of the show, we had a really interesting conversation. Andy does a lot of work with younger, like even high school age students, and sort of teaching them this, this whole STEM program and, and really bringing Lean and continuous improvement to these young people. And so we sort of talk about that and talk about how, how, how important it is really to sort of start pouring into our youth and teaching these principles at a young age. And don't wait until you're old people like me, me, like me, and probably you listening, right? Like, we— it'd be much better if we could have learned these things in high school, right? And how much better the world would be. So anyhow, great conversation. I really enjoyed this one. Show notes can be found over at gembapodcast.com. Just look for episode 633. Again, gembapodcast.com and look for episode 633. Okay, enough for me. Let's get to the show.

Andy, welcome to the show. How's it going? G'day, Ron. I am so happy to be here. It's an honor. Going really well, mate. How are you?

Great. I'm great. Sounds like you might be from like Boston or New York or something like that.

Oh, you picked that up? Yeah. Yeah, just a little bit south. Southeast or west, depending on which way, right?

Yeah, we were saying before we start recording, so we're recording this on a Friday in Texas at 2 o'clock in the afternoon, but then in Australia, I understand it's what, 5 AM on a Saturday morning, something like that.

So that's correct.

Going back to the future or whatever.

I'm coming to you from the future, Ron. So it's a pleasure to be here.

Yeah, that's great. That's great. Well, I'm excited to have you on. So, Andy, I know you've listened to the show and you know how we like to start things. It's with our guest sharing a quote. So what do you got?

Yeah, so this one, in all of the things that I've learned in my time, and there's some fantastic quotes out there, but I throw back to one that my grandfather used to say, and it was, there's no point bending your back if you're not going to use your head. And he was a farmer. And that for me, it was like, yeah, you need to work hard, but you gotta think about it too. So, and I carry that with me right through to today. So that, that's mine if I had to land on one.

Oh, that's a good one, man. I've never heard that. That's fantastic though. Those grandpas, man, they got wisdom.

For sure. Yeah.

Well, good. All right. Well, Andy, hey, tell us a little bit about yourself. Tell us about your background and how you first got involved in all this continuous improvement stuff and what you're up to these days, including this other podcasts that you do, rival podcast of the Gemba Beta.

No, there's no rival. Yeah, no, none of that. No, thanks, Ron. Yeah, so I had a trade background. I actually started out fixing appliances when I first left school. I was kind of done, but I couldn't leave until I got a job. So I started out in a trade and as an electrician, and then I've gone on to do some other trades and engineering and then worked in various maintenance and operational leadership type roles going through, but was fortunate to work for a couple of organizations that had formal Lean and Lean Six Sigma programs. And that's where I was, got some good training and, and, uh, was really stepping into that, oh, this is what this stuff is. So fortunate to have worked in those organizations and done it as part of my role, I guess, and then started to step into some formal trainer assessor type things. And then picked up a, a job that was specifically in process improvement, and on we went. So I've, I've worked in, um, I've worked as an underground coal miner, I've, I've done stuff with health, local government, and rolling forward now, I've, I've started my own independent consultancy in the last couple of years. And now I go into organizations and, and help them solve problems. So it was I've been on a bit of a journey, and as I said to you before we got going, got a long way to go. So, but yeah, that's, that's really the background.

So I gotta ask, tell me a coal mining story, because I don't know if I've ever had a coal miner on the podcast in all the episodes that we've ever done.

All right, so I was an electrician in a production team, so we were underground cutting the coal seam basically. So I was there, all the, all the equipment down there pretty much is electric plug-in type stuff. So, uh, for those who have met me in person, yeah, I'm not the tallest. So I guess for me, when I was— that was the— it's probably the most, in some ways, dangerous and challenging environment I've worked in. You know, it's very dark. There's a— everything's about— I'll talk in imperial— it's about a foot too high for me to reach. So I had to kind of step up everywhere. But, uh, I always say to people, like, yeah, things could go wrong pretty quick down there if you didn't have the right systems, processes, and in particular standards in place. But best team environment I've ever worked in. Like, we couldn't even have a radio or a TV down there because of the explosion risk. But I think for me, yeah, so I was getting dragged around putting roof bolts in and, you know, falling in the mud and all those sorts of things that people do. But obviously it's a really highly skilled and challenging work environment. So that was really great from a culture perspective. I found that that was really strong that if we didn't get on or raise our issues and get to them quick, that could really fester into something. But I think for me, you know, there was always this piece around safety with, as I said, the explosive gases that can be produced in a coal mine. And I'll never forget, it was my first shift when I went underground to go into production, and we did a toolbox talk on the surface. So we'd stand up and look at some metrics, and this is where we're cutting today, and you go here and you do this, and et cetera, etc. And that was all fine. Anyway, when we got down, we'd drive down underground, we'd have a little chat at the crib hut, which is where you'd have your, your meals and things, a little area where we'd all sort of meet and park up. And, and Robbo, who was the deputy, uh, he said, right, everything's fine, this is Andy, Andy's new in our team, so let's, let's look after him, and he's going to pair up with, with, uh, Duke was the guy. But he turned to this fella and he said— I won't say his name— but he said, have you got a problem with me? And it was, I was like, oh dear, what's happening here? He said, it's come to my attention that maybe you're not the biggest fan of the direction I'm giving. And before we walk around that corner, we need to take a moment to sort that out. So tell me what's on your mind. And I thought, oh no, I'm this, where is this going? But that was just one example of when I said from a cultural perspective, didn't matter what we were doing during that shift. Our deputy— so he was the team leader, I guess— any sort of a whiff that he got that the culture wasn't right or someone wasn't clear on the instruction, they'd hit it there and then. And as I moved forward out of that underground, there's all those stories of things falling, you know, rock falling down and machines, you know, catching near— catching fire and all that sort of stuff. But for me, that was— there was no room for any sort of disconnection or undertones that may put someone's life at risk. So for all of my coal mining friends out there that might be listening to this, I think you'd connect with that because yeah, there was nowhere to, um, it's nowhere to hide down there if you weren't connected and getting on and knew what you had to do and how to do it safely. So that's maybe a story, Ron, but for me, that the cultural piece is what I, what it took for me.

I just can't imagine. That's got to be just as a— you mentioned the first time you went under, like, it's just That's got to be a weird feeling, man, you know, like just sort of like leaving— well, you're not leaving Earth, you're just going into it, you know.

Well, you're going— yeah, it was about, uh, we were 300 meters directly under a lake, right? It was just weird that we were cutting away and I used to go water skiing on this body of water above me and I'm going, I wish no one told me I was— that's where I was, because you kind of go down and you disappear and And but yeah, they, you can't be scared of the dark there. But it was, it was an interesting time. And as I said, I started out, I left school and was fixing washing machines in people's laundries, right? And then here I am with, you know, moving tons and tons of coal and the dust and the steam and all that sort of stuff going around, just thinking, wow, how did I kind of get here? But it was just, I was an electrician.

What's a PPE scene looking like in the coal mining world?

Yeah, so hard hat, hi-vis, obviously a lot of reflective stuff you've got to wear. So the belts that you have to wear would have like a— you had to have a— it's really great stuff. You've got to wear this self-rescuer, so if something gets going and you can't breathe, probably got to put this thing on that they said. And look, it'll probably cook your lungs, but at least you'll live. I'm going, thanks, Tiger, that, that really inspires me. So you've got all this equipment on your belt, and people wear gas detectors, um, Of course, you know, steel cap boots, gum boots, whatever. Yeah, it's just rock and mud and all that sort of stuff. I do see a lot of videos of some of the, like I could stand up, the roof was quite high in this seam that we were chasing. But I see a lot of some of the coal mining over there in the US, for example, where they're like crouched right down and the seam's only about, you know, it's only about 4 foot high and they just down like that all day. So I was never in that space. I was fortunate I had a bit of room, but it's, uh, yeah. And safety glasses, so you got to wear them, but they fog up because of the water and all that sort of stuff going around. And you should wear a mask, but you put that on and it fogs your glasses up. So it was always this little constant piece of following the rules, right? But also, and trying to keep yourself safe. But I mean, if you can't see and you can't breathe, it's, uh, it's hard to follow that rule. So there was a bit of, uh, People get creative down there when no one's looking. But I always, uh, there was a saying. So being an electrician, they had a bit of a— back in the day, apparently the electricians just used to sleep during the shift, right? So whenever there'd be 3 or 4 of us walking in a group of electricians, the operators, or the feds we'd call them, would say, oh, here comes a coma of electricians. So that would be like the collective noun for, for what we were. But I learned very quickly, and someone said to me, if you want to know the, the best way to do something, ask the laziest fed. And that was one around— well, they've been there a while, and we used to sit there and think of all these amazing ways we were going to do a job, and they'd just walk around the corner and say, what are you trying to do? Oh, we just need to get this from here to here and then move that round to there. And he's like, why don't you just— and we'd go Oh yeah, we'd— as, as we do in this world, right? We overthink it, we want to look smart, all those sorts of things. But can't buy experience. And, uh, going back to my grandfather, when people like that had been down there a while, said something in a, in a way that you knew was trying to be helpful, you'd, you'd need to check yourself and have a bit of a listen, right? So yeah, good times. But I'm— yeah, I did that for about 4 years, and then I wanted to go on and do some engineering type studies and I was working 5 nights a week permanently, and that's just, that's tough. So out I went.

Yeah. Hey, so when you think about just like your journey with Lean and discontinuous improvement in general, I'm wondering, like, was there ever sort of like just a, I don't know, kind of like an aha moment that really sort of struck you? And if so, what was it?

Yeah, I love telling this story. And when I thought I'd been around Lean or Lean Six Sigma in the past. And one of the companies I worked for, they launched a global program and they sent a gentleman, g'day Wes, they sent him out from the US and it was on day 1. And I at the time was a maintenance supervisor. So lots of things were going wrong, equipment failures, all those sorts of things was popping up and people challenges in my team. And I think it was about the 4th or 5th slide that Wes put up, and it had that Taiichi Ohno quote that pops up, uh, "No standard, no improvement." And I looked at that, and honestly, when they talk about the aha moment, I looked at that and I went, hang on, Wes, can you— he said, I'm going to get to it. But he talked through what that meant really, and I went, my goodness, we don't have anything We don't have anything really documented. You know, we are just so all over the place, but we're getting better. And I talk about, oh, things are getting better. Yeah, I feel like it's getting better. All of those sort of weasel sort of words. And that was it for me. I went, yeah, this isn't about some— I'm getting— going about to get buried in statistics for the next 2 weeks or whatever. It's like, yeah, we don't have a standard. And that was it. I said to Wes, I am on. I've just had this moment where that's it. What are we comparing it to? How can I have any sort of control about what's happening, not only out there but with myself, if I don't have the standard that people know about? So that was it. I, I remember the date well, in, in— and it was in 2017, so not a long, long time ago. And as I said, I thought I'd been in this space for a bit, but I just That was the light bulb. And then from then on, of course, I was very bought into the program and I was being trained up to be a Lean event facilitator so I could run a Lean event, set up a standard work or a daily visual management board or something like that. But Wes immediately spoke to a few of my leaders and said, I think this guy, because they're wanting to develop what they would call a 3B, which is the trainer, coach, mentor to then train the next batch coming through. He said, I think we should— we'll keep an eye on this guy. And, and that was really what set me on that path. And, and I had knocked back other roles on more money, and I was like, I think this is— no, this is what I want to do, because gosh, I— it's helping me so much. And just the, the whole mindset shift around the people feeling good and, and getting them to create their standards in a lot of places. I was, I was saying, this is— no wonder this stuff doesn't work so much in other places I've been, because we've never We've never been that deliberate with, hang on, what should be happening? Where is it? Have you documented it? Could I look at that and see what that looks like? And we were just running around just going, how many tons have we got out the door? You know, has anyone got hurt? Oh, well, if that's all good and the money's good and they're not yelling at us, just keep going. But it's such a lift back and moment. So that was it. That's that. Thank you, S. And, and that, that quote, I, I use that now, and it's very early in the piece to say Let's just take a moment to think, what does that mean for you?

I'm wondering though, so you've been at this for a little while, got a lot of experience, Andy. Like when you think back to those early days and now you think about where you are today, present-day Andy, like is there, I don't know, any examples of maybe how you changed your tactics or your approach or your thinking, you know, as it relates to Lean?

Yeah, and I think some of our listeners might have done the same. I was all about the tools. I was, when I, when I was getting started early, I was, I felt great that I had been shown how to use the tools properly, right? So I went, I basically spent 2 weeks with this amazing group of people from all over, and someone said he's come back, he's taken the blue pill type stuff. And I was, I was like, oh, We've got this 8-step problem-solving tool, we've got all these things. So I was very heavy on the tools and thought the more tools and colors and things I had around—

learning to see around, mapping everything that you—

yeah. And I, I was just like, yeah, if I can, if I can put a few of these A3s up in front of people and that, that they'll think I know what I'm doing and, and we're doing lean. Uh, rolling forward now, yeah, I learned along the way that it's the tools come later. It's the head and the heart piece that the two— I say to people, the tools are easy. It's the cultural piece and the leadership in particular around, are they even connected to what I'm talking about? So the early days—

I'm gonna argue with you now. So, just kidding. I'm not gonna argue with you. Go. Because if someone asked me that question, I could say and have said exactly what you've said, Andy, because I feel like all of us really, if not all of us, but the vast majority of people who have been at this for a little while, we did start with the tools. We did read all the LEI books and followed the steps and we mapped out value streams annoyingly and all the rest of it. And then, yeah, then we kind of figured out, oh, wait a minute, people run when I come around the corner. That's not good. But I guess my question though is, and I'm pushing back and also on myself is to not beat ourselves up too much is like, had we started with the people side of it for whatever, really whatever that means, like, would it have been better, do you think? Or like, if you didn't know what 5S was, you didn't know what the wastes were, you didn't know how to map a value stream, you know, like, like, would you have been as effective? You know what I'm saying?

No way I would have. And that was the follow-on, was I absolutely— to have that depth of where I feel I am at this point in my journey, I needed to go through that. And, and that's, that's where I said, like, I think a lot of our listeners would connect with it, is I had to— we had to bring some sort of standard and structure to how we were working. And best practice tools and method, it just got us capturing and communicating and working through things in a consistent standard way. Absolutely. If I didn't have— and the way I am, if I didn't have a couple of shiny things put in front of me, I would have been, oh yeah, kumbaya, and oh yeah, it's all about leadership and caring, respect for people, and yeah. But I have got a forge press back there in Newcastle where I am that's breaking down every day. I need something. I was always being an electrician or from a trade background, if I didn't have my tool bag in with me, I wouldn't even go and look at what was going on, right? I'd do, oh, I've got to go back to the workshop and get my tools. So absolutely, and that's learning through trying to apply the tool in the wrong scenario and learning what that's like. And I think when I— for me, the most rewarding part of training someone is when they turn around along the way and say, I know what not to use that for. I'm like, yes, I you're seeing that it's not about— they use the golf club analogy a lot, right? It's you've got a bag of golf clubs and depending on how far you want to drive the ball, well, it's a different club. And that's kind of the speed there. But yeah, I do now— I give people— if I don't promise some sort of tool set during and after the, the training, they're, they're, oh no, well, that's not really the right thing for us. But yeah, if you're in that space now listening to this, yeah, you've keep going because it's just something you've got to, um, I guess, wrestle with. So I really appreciate that, that pushback, Ron, because it is— if I didn't have the tools and then the experience going on, yeah, I wouldn't be sitting here today so passionate about it. So yeah, I appreciate that.

Yeah, yeah. And it's not one or the other, obviously, it's one and the other, right?

And yeah, yeah.

And Yeah, I mean, we've all been excited about— we write a new book and we wanted to experiment with something and we were that annoying person who was just going to do it, right? Because we wanted to practice and maybe it wasn't even the right time to do that A3, but we did it anyhow. But I think that's an important part of really anybody's journey, right? Is getting out there and practicing and learning. But yeah, never losing sight of the human side of it, right? Because in the end, It's people that— well, at least for right now, it's people, you know, maybe AI will take over for better or worse.

Yeah, yeah. I say to people, for better or worse, this is such a human experiment, right, what we're doing. And yeah, if, as I said, the tools for me, I say to people respectfully that, look, at the end of the day, the tools are easy. It's how we connect them and, and stick to them instead of trying 100 different flavors just because the pressure's on and someone's watching. Yeah.

So along these same lines, I'm wondering, again, just thinking about with all of your experience and all of the lessons that you've learned over the years, is there anything that you've seen along the way that comes to your mind as far as like, don't do that because it's gonna sort of kill your culture? Like, have you seen something like that?

Yeah, and I'll, I'll lead with humility here. I— it was me. I'll— I've seen— yeah, I've, uh, I've seen many examples of where a leader's said, oh yes, I, I support this, you go on and do it, yeah, off you go. And us, can you— are you going to join us for the training? Ah, no, no, no, no, no. Straight away, if anyone else hears that, they're, well, this is kind of it's us against the world, or, well, they don't— if they don't know, how am I going to do it? But coming back to my example, uh, so we're in a, in a factory, and this is when I'd had this amazing training, and I was just absolutely dialed in, and, and I was motivated to get the rest of the team because there was a few tough nuts to crack, and one in particular who was a bit of a top dog in one of the shifts who kind of unless he agreed, then the rest of the team wouldn't play along. And I was doing some simple pieces, trying to get them involved in some, some light-touch training, or trying to stand up some metrics and stuff. And I went into the control room this, this one morning after a really bad night of breakdowns and stuff, and, and there was this $2 analog clock sitting on the control desk. That was normally up on the wall. And I said to this guy, I said, oh, what's going on with that? And he said, oh, can you buy me another one of these? And I went, are you serious? I said, we've got so much going on and you're whinging to me about this $2 clock? Like, what is going on here, mate? What are you thinking about? And then I looked down at the clock. So he stormed off and said, oh, well, don't worry about it. Because I'd said things like, look, you've got 5 computer screens here with clocks on them. You've got a run chart there. Like, how many clocks do you need, mate? I was just on fire. And I I really dropped below the line because I was under pressure. And why aren't these people getting it? You know, why aren't they feeling like I'm feeling now and we're still making the same mistakes, et cetera? So I was just really, I guess, I don't know how he'd say it there, but in Australia, we'd say the guy was kind of up himself. Like I was feeling like, oh, I was the lean Jedi, which I wasn't, still not. And then I noticed that he'd actually started to draw some lines on this clock face. In Texta, and it wasn't the standard, you know, 15-minute for the daily meetings and things that I'd seen. And I sort of had a look at this clock, and then I went back out and I said, I'm really sorry, mate, I didn't mean to sort of go like that, but I want to talk to you about this clock. And he said, oh, don't worry about it. And I said, I just want to understand what you're doing here. And what he was doing that night, there was a couple of little moments getting— they were doing hour-by-hour charts And as they were getting close to the hour, there was a couple of little things where they'd seem to forget about it and putting them down and filling out the sheets. He was actually starting— he'd spoken to others in the team and said, look, I don't mind how they put the lines on the clocks in there. Why don't we do that with ours for the hour-by-hour charts? So they were on their way. All he was asking me for was another clock to put in front of the sort of near where they're looking out into the factory. And have these little markers on it. So it was a bit of a cue to them because there's buzzers and alarms going. What a fantastic simple idea, right? Visual, simple visual management. Although he was gone then, he was actually just starting to step through, and here I come in and just drop the ball. And as I said, I was more about, why aren't you— I just wasn't— I was so— what I felt at the time was frustrated because this seems so simple to me now, why aren't you getting it? And I killed it. So that he, I reckon even 12 months later, there was still that little bit of tension whenever I'd pull a Lean tool out or something like that, he'd kind of deliberately shut it off. So that I'm sharing that is in the moment, he was actually, for me, was really embracing what this was about, was just, hey, what's a simple visual way that our team connects that helps us be be more accountable, not forget the simple thing. So that was me, and I forever kicked myself and apologetic about it. But that— I killed a lean culture in that control room that morning. So that was, that was me.

Yeah, well, I mean, I think that we've all— we're all probably guilty of that. Even, even I just think about even like raising kids at home, you know, how many times your kid comes to you with something or whatever and you just shoot it down and you know, because you're having a bad day or whatever it is. And, and, you know, they never, never had a chance to, to flourish. And you just don't, just don't know. So I think, yeah, got to do the best we can to keep open minds and, and, uh, you know, try to help people learn their way forward, right?

If I had got that crew on board, every, every other crew would have followed sooner instead of the thing that needed to be pushed down quite often was, this is the way you're going to work around here, and if you don't do it, this isn't the right place for you. Whereas this would have been such an organic, hey, what can we do next? Or them showing us. I learned so much from so many people who, in inverted commas, don't know about Lean. I have people who work in a very strong customer-facing business when they're in high school. And they say, oh, I don't know anything about this stuff, Andy. And I say, well, where did you used to work? 'Ah, nothing special. I used to work at McDonald's.' 'Oh yeah, oh, okay. I think some of this might connect a bit more than what you think, mate.' So, and they do, and they go, 'Oh yeah, we used to have those sheets where— yeah, there, the standard worksheet. Yeah, okay, well, we called them—' So yeah, there was a— there was some really good green shoots about to grow, and I just trampled all over them. So yeah, don't do that. And I've got plenty more examples of what not to do. But yeah, I won't throw shade at executives and all those things that we commonly hear. Oh, leadership, you know, management, they don't care, they don't listen. Well, you know what, it was really on me, and I stamped that fire out before it even got a chance to get going. So I'll own that one.

Yeah, yeah, got it. Well, so Andy, I know that you work a lot with the younger generation in particular, looking at sort of like STEM programs and figuring out possibly how lean and continuous improvement can play a role. Tell us a little bit about what you're doing and with these young people.

It's been amazing. So a shout out to Brian and Alison DeVries over there in Michigan. They have developed a fantastic— I call it early STEM if you look at it in one lens, but it's a program called the Big Thinking Box where the first time I saw it, you probably gathered by now, Ron, that I don't mind a chat and I may get a little bit easily distracted. So when they were sort of stepping through this program around critical thinking, courage, and curiosity, but how it kind of shapes in, especially for the younger generation, I was just I was just immediately in, and I said, I wish I had this as a kid. So what it is for me, the key things and how it ties in so much to what I do now is just really when I go out to schools and we run this program, what I love about it and what I love about the work that I do now is everybody's different. Uh, we all have different ways of thinking and different places we've come from or where we're going. This kind of lifts you up into a space where it's about just being authentic, asking the right questions. And when I say the right questions, I mean in the moment that gets us there sooner. But this other thing around tri-storming, okay, there's a particular outcome in the challenges that you do, but there's no real rule around it apart from you just have to stay in certain areas. And the kids, when, when, and then when you go and run a few of these activities with adults or professionals, right, the kids absolutely dominate it. And, and so it's about, for me, this program and, and the STEM support that I do is we didn't have a lot of it when I was at school. We had science and technology and stuff like that, but this is such a— there's more of a personal connection. And these STEM programs that are around the region that I live in now and support and play in is, you know, when you're in school, you've got the sporties and the academics, and they usually, they kind of sit at the top of the tree. And then you've got all these other, like what I refer to myself as a roughy or an also-ran that I don't— I used to sit back or I wouldn't say anything because I didn't want to look silly, or, oh well, I'll just pick those kids because they can run the fastest. This absolutely changes the game with these sorts of things. And it totally turns those traditionally, you know, let's go back 30-odd years ago, what was seen as the, the ones to beat. They're looking over going, oh wow, what did you do there? And hey, I really need someone like you to help me in my team. And, and it really early on builds that culture around everybody knows something you don't. And if you don't have diversity in the team, than if it's everyone's just kind of thinking the same thing or whatever. And it's forcing us not to have to walk through that stencil that we get pushed through during school. You must go through and do it like this. It's like, hang on, the only thing that we're born with competitive advantage against the robots is our creativity, right? And this absolutely gives them a forum. We align it to the school curricula and the syllabus, so it's not just a fun sciencey experimenty thing over here. It's actually plugging into the formal learning programs that they need to do, but it's just such a fun, out-of-the-box— pardon the pun— sort of way to do it. And the kids teach me so much, and, and the teachers even say they're like, wow, it's just amazing. If you give them the right sort of environment and kind of take the shackles off a bit, I can't believe what they're coming up with. And so that— it's, it's not, you know, as I say to people, it's not going to pay the mortgage off doing this sort of stuff, but it is just incredible. And then when you walk into a room full of, um, adults and professionals and they're really struggling with it, it's— I was with a group of primary school kids yesterday and they don't overthink it. It's, does it just need to go from there to there, Andy? Yep, have a go, and if it fails, write down what happened, okay? Reflect. So maybe your mates don't do that next week. Just in business, we just seem to be so torn up and we don't take that time to do a good lessons learned and write down what not to do. And it's so exciting and good on them because the programs like that, as I said, we use it with adults as well. and we kind of break away from that, just being continuously curious. And so when I, when I use those examples in the, in the space where I work professionally now, it's absolutely about that. There's got to be a better way. We're constantly thinking of, even competitively, like, well, what's another way we could do it? But there's still some structure and framework and making sure that you really celebrate the diverse skills and talents of those in the room and, and make sure that we keep that healthy, right? So, yeah, it's so good. I love it.

I love the story with the, with the kids, you know, because, gosh, their, their brains are so plastic, you know, at that age. And it is almost their unfair advantage, I would say, compared to, you know, going into a room of grown-ups and trying to get them to, you know, adopt some Lean thinking principle that they've never heard of, right? Like, it's harder, right? Literally, for for adults, right? Because our brains aren't as plastic, right? We just can't learn as well and as quickly. Like, my 12-year-old daughter Molly, she learned how to do this Rubik's Cube, you know? And I couldn't do it if my life depended on it. And she can like literally solve a Rubik's Cube. You mess it up as much as you can and she can solve it for sure in under 30 seconds. And she's like trying to— I think it's something crazy like that. Maybe I— it's super fast, right?

Just, you know, and she's like, oh, it's just the algorithm, Dad.

And I'm I'm like, oh yeah, the algorithm, right? You know, but their brains just— it's just so powerful. And, and I think that we, we do a disservice to our kids today, you know, when we allow them to just blankly stare at their stupid phone all day long or whatever. Like, you know, you know what I mean? Like, they need to be doing Rubik's Cube, they need to be thinking and learning and experimenting and trying things, right?

Yeah, so the tactile, that's what I love about it. It's paper straws, and I won't give away too much, but it's all very tactile. And again, with Lean, the power is in the pen. I know, and but absolutely, with digital transformation is part of it. But just that moment where a Level 1 operator is coloring in a box on a Pareto chart and then writing, and it mightn't be 100% right, but they're writing down what they believe as a team is going wrong, root cause, if they're doing a 5 Whys below that, right? It's such a— you could ask them, or you could ask them what they know, all right? And they could try and tell you, or you can actually see them in real time filling these things out or doing these hands-on activities. You immediately start to calibrate yourself on, okay, well, I can see some strengths in here, or here's a coaching opportunity over here because That's not how you do a 5 Whys. Yo, it has to be, or holy cow, I've never seen, that's a great way you do that. And if I didn't give them that place to put it, that's what I like about the tools is you're giving them a canvas but with some structure is, that's how we learn, right? And it's, where did you learn that? And as I said, one of the most creative Lean people I've ever worked with in a previous life before he became a the role he's in now, was a pastry chef. And when we were going through doing introductions when he first started in this team, they called him Bill the Baker's Man and, and had a bit of a laugh. But he was about mixtures and recipes and the way that you fold things in your hands. Like, he's such a tactile— and would— he could smell if something wasn't going right, even though that $20,000 oven should tell him when things— he would he was just, uh, canary in the coal mine with a lot of that stuff. So having that— we had a room full of engineers and very technical people in that space. He just had this way of going, well, yeah, we could do it like that, but I'm just thinking of who comes through here next, or the leaders who've had none of what we've done in this training and, and haven't been in this room as much as we have. He said, do you think anyone outside this room is going to understand that? I'll know how to do it sooner rather than later. And he was really good at bringing us back to— and they used to have a laugh and say, well, hey, if the croissant maker can do it, anybody can. And, and he was a, he was a dead set champ. He took it in the, in the best fashion. But it's so true, if we get too mystical with the tools and you can only talk to these people if you want to even try some of those things, people just, they'll just go back to doing their job, especially So yeah, simple.

Awesome. Oh, Andy, man, this has been a lot of fun, man. I appreciate you coming on. And do you have, I was wondering if you have any sort of final words of wisdom or parting thoughts that you want to leave with the listeners?

I would just say if anybody's curious about getting started in here, obviously Gemba Academy's been, and sorry if this is a shameful plug, but has been really great for me to have a look around at some of these things. And I— and that's— that was definitely one of the things I got plugged into early in the piece. But just be curious and, and seek that knowledge from many different places about this stuff. But there's— it can be a bit overwhelming. I've, I've buried myself in books and tried to kind of, you know, I haven't— if you haven't read that book yet, you're not a lean person, and all this sort of stuff. Look, I don't know what the right tension is for where you are now in your career if you're listening to this, right? But yeah, there's got to be some book knowledge, but there's got to be the hands-on. And anytime you think you're going really well and you're all over it, you need to immediately go and ask 3 other people how you're making them feel with the way that you're trying to get them to work or how they're observing your work. All right, because it's a really good, uh, catch point. There are no experts in this space. Anyone who tells you they are I run the other way. Just stay curious, keep listening if there's something in here that has stood out for you. But as I said, there's no point bending your back if you're not going to use your head. But also, I add that you've also got to use your heart and lead with that as well, because I've fallen down many times, but I just think that there's such a great community out here. We're all— we are all here to help and support each other. Yeah, just don't go too hot in one, in one way with the technical before you can try some things yourself, because that's the only way you're going to learn.

Awesome. Good stuff. Hey, and if people want to connect with you, what's the best way, Andy?

Yeah, so I've got a LinkedIn profile, Andy Olrich, A-N-D-Y-O-L-R-I-C-H. I also co-host the podcast with Patrick Adams, so the Lean Solutions Patrician's Podcast. And thanks for bringing that up earlier, Ron. But, and just reach out, I'm always, uh, keen to connect and share.

I have everything linked up in the show notes, so awesome. So go, uh, go check out Andy. And, uh, yeah, you guys do a great job on the podcast, and, and, uh, Patrick is fantastic, one of my favorite people.

Yeah, no, thanks again, Ron. It's, it's, as I said, it's an absolute honor to, to be on the show, and you have done so much to to help people like me and others in the lean and continuous improvement space. Appreciate you, mate, and I hope things go well for you.

All right, okay, well, have a good rest of your day, okay? I'm getting ready to go to bed, so a little bit— I'm just getting started, it's Saturday, let's go! All right, man, all right, take care, cheers! See you, mate, good on you. Thanks Thank you for joining us today. We know the path to continuous improvement can be challenging to walk alone. That's why Gemba Academy exists, not just to provide training, but to be your partner in problem solving. Whether you're just taking your first steps or leading a global transformation, our goal is to help you bridge the gap between knowing and doing. Beyond our library of Lean and Six Sigma resources, we're here to coach and guide you through your journey, whether that's through personalized support or joining us for a live training to get that immersive hands-on experience. To learn more, go to gembaacademy.com.