GA 641 | What Makes a Good Teammate with Eric Reveno

He helps us. So like, that's a valuable role that he helps others. But if he was to be a negative and a problem and the guy rolling his eyes in the back of film room or the guy on the Zoom call who's sending chat messages to somebody else going, "Oh, here we go again." Like the way you deal with those, everybody's watching. 'Cause here's a lesson you learn from basketball and coaching is the players can fool the coaches, but they don't fool each other. And so like, if someone's pulling something over on the leader, the other people know.

Today, I am excited to welcome Coach Eric Revenu. Now, uh, Coach Eric, or I just called him Eric in the, in the interview, but, uh, so he's with Stanford University. And I got to tell you right out of the gate, this is not your typical sort of Lean and Six Sigma, you know, conversation, uh, podcast. Um, but boy oh boy, there's so many awesome nuggets and so much wisdom that we can take from what what Coach Revenu was talking about in this, in this episode. So we really get into just kind of talking a lot about what makes a good teammate. And so obviously he comes at it from— he has a lot of experience from athletics and college athletics in particular. And so we get into that, but we also jump into like, well, what does that mean for us in the business world? And obviously there's tons of parallels between the two worlds. Then we got into the whole idea of NIL. And so he explains what that all is. If you're not a sports person or maybe you don't even live in America, So this is a big thing where college athletes can get paid. And so we talk a little bit about that and we talk about like, what has that done to college athletics? And again, what lessons can be learned as far as, you know, how you, the way you reward people is the way they behave, that sort of thing. So again, from the business world, I think there's things to learn from. And then kind of towards the end, my favorite part was when I said, okay, imagine you're walking into a team, whether it's an athletic team or it's a, it's in a business and they're struggling, like, what do you do to sort of turn it around? And so he has a lot of great wisdom to, to share on that point as well. So really, really good one. Listen to this one all the way through because it was a fantastic episode. So show notes can be found over at gembapodcast.com. This is episode 641. Again, gembapodcast.com, look for episode 641. Okay, enough for me. Let's get to the show. Eric, welcome to the show. How's it going?

Great. Doing great. Thanks for having me. Looking forward to the conversation.

Yeah. Where are you calling in from?

I am in Palo Alto, California, at Stanford University. So the shades are down for the Zoom. It's not a typical summer day. It's a little bit overcast for us. We're very— we stay in California too long, you get soft.

I know, that's what I'm saying. That's a real rough place to live, man, you know.

Yeah, I walked into work today and, you know, you can't figure out whether you should wear the light coat or not. It's a lot of big decisions.

Yeah, no, that's great. That's a beautiful part of the country. So yeah, yeah, awesome. All right, well, Eric, um, as you know, we like to begin all of our episodes with our guests sharing a quote. So what do you got?

I've got, um, "Culture is not what leaders preach, it's what teammates tolerate, celebrate, and repeat." And I've got I don't know where it— I need to find the attribution, but it's— Yeah. That's my quote.

So what's that mean to you?

You know, it's, you know, we like— leaders like to put a cultural thing up on the wall and they like to, you know, even at Stanford here, we walk down the stairs and you put our values, but it's not necessarily— that's not true. It's what we as the members of the team, how we live every day and what we tolerate.

Exactly, 100%. All right, well, hey, uh, Eric, tell us a little bit about yourself. Tell us about, uh, your background and then, uh, the work that you do out there at Stanford.

So I, um, born and raised right here in the beautiful part of the country here in Northern California, uh, came here and played basketball at Stanford, uh, and, and graduated, uh, went overseas, played in Japan, learned a lot of stuff about teamwork and experience there working with the team there, uh, and then I came back to business school, Stanford Business School, graduated in '95. And then I decided I want to be a coach. My wife— I met my wife in business school. She thought she was marrying someone like my classmate who went on to Jeff Skoll helped start eBay, but instead she married a basketball coach. But so, but, and so I've been doing it 30 years now. It's been great. And I'm, I was here and then I was gone coaching, been a head coach at University of Portland. And now at Stanford, I'm associate head coach and I've grown into this new role of general manager, which oversees this new world of college athletics where we can actually pay athletes. So the line between— as, as basketball has become more professional, college basketball has— the line between sort of amateur athletics of college athletics and business has got— gotten even more blurred. And I'm, uh, just excited to have these conversations about the similarities and, and things I've learned along the way and building teams.

Yeah, I want to— I actually want to dive into this whole NIL topic a little bit. It's not a normal topic that we would have on this podcast, but I feel like there's some really interesting parallels to to that and what you're dealing with and what those of us in the sort of the business world are dealing with as well. So I think there's a lot of parallels. But maybe to open up with though, I wanted to see if we can— again, you got a lot of coaching experience and a lot of leadership experience. So I'm wondering if, you know, I've heard it said that leadership is overtaught and that teammate behavior is undertaught. So first of all, what do you think about that? Do you think it's true? And then if so, like, what's up with that?

Yeah, I definitely 100% think it's true. I mean, here you are at Stanford, and if I was to go into our course catalog and look at leadership courses, go to the business school leadership, and I think some of the leadership courses do talk about what it means to be a good teammate. But to me, there are certain values of being a teammate, like helping, I have a STORM, this STORM acronym that has 5 pillars and includes things like showing up with energy and taking care of your teammates and owning your power and raising others up. And, the last one is mission, being mission-focused and everything. These are all responsibilities of being a good teammate. So, if I help a teammate out, I don't like when we'd say, "Well, he's a good leader. He helped Joe solve that problem." Joe on the line there, Joe was having trouble with something and he helped him out. That's not what leaders do. That's what teammates do. And I think the bar of being a good teammate has been lowered over time. And our responsibility to like that I'm responsible for the results of. So, if we don't meet our numbers, instead of all looking at the leader and saying, "Oh, what are you going to do, Mr. Leader? How are you going to solve this?" Like, what can I do in my lane, in my space, in my role? And I think the difference with a leader, for me, a difference with a leader is as leader, you're responsible for who's on the team. You make those decisions. You could do it by vote if you wanted to, but you're going to hire somebody. You're going to select someone for the team. That's the biggest responsibility. Then you're going to decide what role they have in your strategy that you choose. And you're going to get feedback from the team and you're going to be, that's your leadership style, how you work with the team and how that morphs together and how you get feedback and what you listen to and what you don't, who you listen to. That's your leadership style. Style. But at the end of the day, you're going to come up with a strategy and a role for those people. And then as a team member, you're trying to do the best you can in that role. You can push back on the leader and say, you know, hey, I want to be doing more, you know, I want to be doing more this and that, budget management, whatever it might be. You might have want to do more things, but the leader decides those things. And I think too often, the leader is given that whole list. That whole list of things, you know, like, and so like people walk into a, you know, get on a Zoom call and they sit there and they're low energy and they're saying, okay, we could have got this done with an email, for God's sake. For us, we go into a team meeting, you've got a very critical audience of 19 to 20-year-olds who've been in class all day and you start talking in video and you start talking in team video and you've got to make it enjoyable for them and you've got to make it sort of meet their goals. But they also have a responsibility to show up with energy and to sit, you know, to give energy to the speaker and have a team responsibility to it. So, those kinds of things I think is where the difference is between the teammate and the leader thing. I think we just sort of lump everything into leadership. And so, if a team culture is wrong because maybe they aren't getting to know each other, people aren't getting to know each other and they're not really trying and it's a leader's responsibility to all of a sudden have some offsite and get everyone to know each other. Well, you don't need an offsite to get to know your teammates. You can do that.

Hey, so I got a wild question. It literally just came into my mind. So I know we sort of talked a little bit ahead of time what we're going to discuss, and so I'm going to throw you a curveball right now. But it just got to thinking about who you are and your role. And so I gotta, I gotta, I gotta confession to make to you, and you might want, might want to hang up now when I say this. But so I grew up— I mean, I live in Texas now, but I grew up in Ohio.

Yep.

And I am a hardcore, hardcore Ohio State Buckeye fan. Okay.

And like, the Ohio State.

The Ohio State.

Yeah, yeah.

To the point of— now it's not like this anymore, but there was a time, and I'll even say in my adult life, my wife would be embarrassed for me to even say this, but like, I might not have been able to eat on game day until like after halftime and we were ahead by 30, you know. So, so I am like, I, I've all about like college football and just that, that whole world that we live in. Not everybody in America, but a lot of people, right, in, in America. And just college sports, basketball, all of it. I'm wondering like, what is that, you know? Because like, for example, the World Cup's about to start when we're recording this here in early June. But, uh, and I actually got a, an email from a European colleague and they were like, hey, what do you think about the World Cup? We were thinking in our newsletter and Full disclosure, my daughter played college soccer and we played soccer all the way up, but I'm not a big soccer guy, right? I'm just not, right? And I'm like, well, I'll probably watch the World Cup a little bit, but I'm not, you know. But like, what is it about like sports and that sort of thing, like in our culture, that enthralls us so much? Like, what do you think that is? Like, even from like a behavioral, human behavioral perspective?

You know, great question. I'm reading this book now called Belonging, and it's talks a little bit about the need to compete and tribes and these things like that. And I think it's on to something at a very fundamental level of how we operate as groups and associations with people. I think it's a, you know, to use a cliché, it's a safe place, you know, like you and I, you know, we can have— we can become friends over our love of college basketball. And I could text you about, you know, Stanford might play Ohio State in the NCAA tournament or Ohio State gets a big win and we can have this bonding thing. It's a topic that people get passionate about. But you're right, it can be visceral. And I think it's good. And there's a study out there and I'll say, you know, I should share it. It's on my LinkedIn that talks about how good sports are for building community. And so, like, you look at the New York Knicks now, like, there's people out there, like, there are, you know, watch parties in on the street, you know, and it just sort of pulls people together and you're cheering alongside of people that don't— you're not having a conversation that can be too divisive. And I think those are— but I think that there's something about that. But the study said— I'm sorry, the study said that people that are avid sports fans are more likely to have challenging conversations, more likely to to give blood, to vote in elections, to volunteer. Like, there's something good about sports. And I actually, to be honest, like here at Stanford, you know, I try to make that point on campus that like us being good in sports is good. Like, I think the Ohio State, like, that's good for the community. You think about pulling people together and like the, you know, and a lot of the great schools in the Midwest area and even Texas, you know, in terms of building community. How much do you want to— you probably don't want to hear much more from Longhorn fans or, you know, right. But, but, you know, and I was growing— I grew up when the San Francisco 49ers were really good, and that brought the area together with Joe Montana and Jerry Rice. You talk about it, you talk about it in school. So I think there is that powerful, powerful element of sports.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So let's, let's dig in now to this whole idea of the, of the NIL. I think it's, uh, again, it doesn't necessarily relate directly to most of our audience listening, but indirectly I think there might be some parallels. So first of all, like, again, maybe explain just for you— some people might not even live in America and they're listening— like, what is NIL? And then, and then how has that sort of changed, you know, college sports? And really, in particular, just the whole idea of like a team culture, because, you know, 15 years ago, you know, a team's culture was built one way. And today, I got to imagine, although I'm not on a, you know, as connected as you are, I got to imagine things are a little bit different.

Yeah, no, I think you, you teed that up well because those are— that's the big thing. It's, it's changed. So we used to build teams focused on— we used to work in a space where we could say, hey, we're going to help you be the best you can be, and you're gonna— and we're gonna work to build a championship team, and we're all gonna get this together, uh, do this together. And then there were some court cases that changed two real fundamental things. One is they allowed players and athletes to be compensated for their name, image, and likeness. So there's NIL. And so the school now has money that they can pay them. We put players on billboards and they bring— they drive ticket revenue and TV revenue so we can pay them a certain amount. It's, you know, there's a— and then that's kind of capped. And then there's third-party NIL. But it's going mainly to football and basketball. And then third-party NIL, which is a local business wants to use an athlete who's famous, they can pay him and compensate him. And they're trying to establish a lot of mechanics around determining market rate. But that's a tricky thing. And that's being— we're working through that process now. So we're in this transition. I think we're at version 2.0 of the transition to this thing. And I don't think the final resting place is probably not till version 5.0. And I wish I was smart enough to figure out the best way to get there. I take optimism in this fact that we're moving along this journey of figuring it out on how to have a balance. But the challenge is, and where I think it's relevant, is that now all of a sudden we have a locker room full of guys that are getting paid. Oh, and then another court case said that they can transfer. So let's take a nice rival of Ohio State. Let's go with Indiana and Coach Bobby Knight, you know, back in the day. You know, like he didn't have to worry about players transferring, you know, and he didn't have to, you know, guys, this was, they kind of signed up and that was their deal. And, and so, uh, now we've got players that can transfer, so it's not much different than the job market where that, you know, someone else offers them more money, pay, can pay more opportunities. So the Ohio State can say, look, you come here, we're going to be able to offer you more third-party NIL than another school, you know, uh, Akron, and, uh, um, and And so you can— so that's an opportunity for you. And so then all of a sudden you're having those kinds of conversations. And I think we are constantly now talking about this element of culture and trying to find players that want to be here, that want to get better, that are still about the right things. So like if you're making decisions on hiring and retaining people, like, do you— like we just lost a player to UConn. And we could have, you know, do you match their offer? Do you do that? Is that going to— is that going to— is he about the right things? And he's just trying to get his market rate, which is a very American thing to do and nothing wrong with that. But he deserves more and he brings us that value. Or, you know, are we going to be about that? And so having those conversations, I would say the difference is we're having those conversations with 18 to 22-year-olds and being the father of a 20-year-old male. I sometimes am not too sure if their brains are fully developed.

The prefrontal cortex thing is not done, man.

I'm hoping not. I love the guy. He's my love. Trust me, Andrew. Andrew, if you're listening, I love you, buddy. But I'm telling you, I don't think you're done yet. Whereas his wife does it. My— his wife— he's not married. My wife, his mother, doesn't quite get it right. But I'm saying, look, he's— he's—

he's—

he's— our daughter was farther along. Like, he's going to get—

he's going to really do go faster. The girls' brains.

Yeah, right. So, so we're having these conversations with these guys in this age group, like, hey, here's, here's a lot of money. And I know they're offering you more money, but let's stay here because we offer you a Stanford degree, the sunny weather, and we're great guys and great coaches, and you still want to coach them hard, right? So you still want to help them. You got to find guys about the right stuff. So I think there's a lot of parallels there.

Yeah, man, it's super fascinating, man. Fascinating. So talk a little bit. Now, you obviously got a lot of coaching background and you've seen a lot over the years. What do you think when you talk about like teammates? And even I'm thinking about even colleagues here in the business world, like what makes a great teammate? You know, what does that look like on a sort of like on a day-to-day basis?

To me, you know, the number one thing that we all talk about is like showing up. So like, do you show up and do you like have energy and do you, you know, you don't— you do the best you can with where you're at and you have trouble. You're, you're, you're, you're family members sick. You got struggles at home. Home, you know, and you still, you know, you're still trying to do the best you can and you don't— I'm not telling you— and if you need help and you reach out for help just so you can be that for that person. But you also, you're also take— this is one that I'm not great at is also like you invest in relationships just for relationship's sake. So like as a coach, I tend to be very— I don't want to use the word transactional, but I tend to be very like bottom line, moving to the next thing. Okay. You know, hey, Ron, we're going to get this done. Here's what we need. You're here to help. Let's boom, boom, boom, boom. And maybe I don't slow down enough sometimes and really, and really invest in that and really sort of say, okay, what's, what's, what's wrong about here? What's, what's going on here? What— this person's not doing a great job. I don't really know them, but they should just do a good job. Maybe I should invest in that thing. So slowing myself down, trying to help other people. I think if a good teammate sees that, like, if you do well, if, you know, it's not— everything's not a zero-sum game. So if you do well, then I'll do well. We want to win together. And so there's a fundamental— a good teammate has to believe in teams, I'd say. And part of the answer to that question, like, if you don't believe in teams, that you're not wired that way, it's really hard. You got to like people, believe in teams. And so that's the big thing. And then, you know, and just sort of— and then take responsibility, because if you do that, then you'll take responsibility for the outcome too, because you value being a member member of the team. And I think then you can teach them like, okay, like the team's really important to you. You really care about it. And we talk about this with certain players. Certain players are more committed to the team than they are to the game. And so like, like I'm thinking of a player now who he's going to put a really good effort in because he doesn't want to let his teammates down. Then there's another player who's going to do a really good effort because because his need to be successful is really important to him. So, he wants to get the accolades and he wants to win and he wants to be the star. And I think that's okay too, as long as there's enough balance of the team. So, the guy who's a hard charger and wants to win the sales award, that's probably okay too, but as long as it doesn't cross a line. And the guy who just wants to be a great teammate, but still under— but if you're the teammate, you got to understand that Like the guys that want to, are just a good teammate, they gotta realize that how they do personally and how they're prepared to do their job is important too. They can't just be worrying about everybody else. So it's interesting.

I just watched a little bit of a documentary on Michael Jordan. You've probably seen it. It's been on before. Like what do you think of a guy like that? Like literally the best basketball player that ever walked the earth, like in my opinion, right?

At least we're not gonna argue. At least we're not gonna argue about that. That's good. We agree on that.

Yeah, but, but what, what do you think, what kind of a teammate was he? You know, like when you're that good, like literally the best in the world at something ever, and probably, well, maybe someday there's some kid will be better, but, but like, like what kind of teammate was he, do you think?

Um, and like, is it harder for someone like Michael Jordan to be a, a great teammate I think, and this is debatable, but I think like great teams aren't for everybody. So, the goal with being a great effective team is not having a culture that accepts everybody. So, like the Chicago Bulls, great teams, he was such a force of nature, literally a force of nature, like generational force of nature. Should be studied like we're talking about him. We're studying him. I'm just trying to figure out how it made him tick, how he worked. And I think he then drove and impacted that culture of that team. And it was built around him. You know, it's like a Steve Jobs type culture where Steve Jobs personality, like in order to be on Steve Jobs executive team, you had to be built a certain way. And I think to be on Michael Jordan's team, you had to be built some way. And so I don't— the answer to your question is I don't think he was a good teammate for some people. People, you know. And like my Bobby Knight thing is I could have played for Bobby Knight when I was a senior, but not when I was a freshman. It would have broke me, you know. So like it wasn't for everybody, right? So I think that culture, that Jordan culture was for the right guy. And so then if you're the GM, was it Krause, whatever that was, those characters from that time.

Yeah.

Those characters. Bill Krause or something like that. Yeah. But so he had to find guys that could play with Jordan and culturally would fit. And like, and then those, you know, like Steve Steve Kerr, and like Steve Kerr stood up to him and had a, you know, had an interesting dynamic. And then Phil Jackson being the type of coach, probably because he was— he, he was— he, he could, he could make it all work, you know, with his—

his master.

Yeah, yeah. With his bendable style, right? So I think— yeah, but what I— so what— and in big universities and places, what they tend to do is big organizations tend to try to be accepting to everybody, and I think that's really hard. So I think It's just like, because then all of a sudden you just, you're just about, you don't have a strong defined culture. Like I was up in Portland living as head coach at University of Portland. We had a great relationship with Nike, you know, and that culture there, it was interesting watching people go there because there was people with Nike swooshes on their, get tattoos and they would get a swoosh tattoo and you go work for Nike and there's Adidas campuses up there in Portland too. And Nike was such a strong culture and you thought it was like the best thing. But then all of a sudden someone would cycle through and be there 18 months and it wasn't for them. You know, it's just too like—

I think I'm tattooed.

Yeah, well, no, it just— it was too obsessed. It was too much. Like they're not looking for that environment from their workplace, you know, like the guy at the Bulls who just wanted to go to practice and shoot and was just trying to make money and move on. Like Jordan would break them. And so you had to have the right kind of guys.

Yeah, yeah.

I think he's the best teammate ever for the right kind of guys. It's just people, he wasn't gonna bend for anybody.

When I think, you know, some of the best companies that I know of are very similar, you know? I mean, it's, you know, each company has a culture and sometimes you're a fit for that culture and sometimes you're not, right?

Right. My daughter now is, I mentioned my son, he's 20, my daughter's 24. And talking to her about that, like trying to figure out, I think that's a tough challenge for people like young people figuring out what culture they fit in. And, you know, like you're still figuring out who you are and then trying to figure out the flip side of the puzzle. You're a piece in a puzzle and you're trying to figure out like this culture, like, and you can go with what just feels good. As we were talking, I thought of Dennis Rodman. I mean, how about like that character? Like, like Jordan could live with Rodman because Rodman, when it came to that, like all Jordan cared about was that competitive fire that showed up.

Maximum effort and get that rebound.

Yeah. You can paint your nails, color your hair, and dress how you want and and, and get home at 3:00 AM. I would not come home. I don't care, just show up and get that rebound. So exactly.

Yeah, exactly, exactly. Hey, so what do you think about, um, seems to me from what I can, I can gather, like thinking about sports, these kids, they're just wildly talented. I mean, just like just oozing with talent. And so these rosters are super talented wanted. But I don't know, and maybe it is this whole NIL thing or the money thing or whatever it is, but they sometimes— it seems like they're not as connected as back in the day, you know. But you're like, do you agree? And if so, like, what's up with that?

I agree. And I think for basketball, I think, um, and this would be interesting, like, for you talk about making the connections with business, like where you hire from. Our basketball culture in this country is kind of broken. Broken, you know, like it starts early and earlier. I'm worried about the kids we get and their ability to process these distractions and things that take them off their core values and kind of cloud decision-making. TikTok. Yeah. Well, yeah, no, so exactly. So like all of a sudden now it's in junior high and all of a sudden they're worried about posting highlights in high school, like junior high. Like if I had been able, like I wouldn't, if I had been able to post highlights and stuff in 8th grade, like would I, you know, like that's just a distracting thing that I wasn't And, you know, it just wasn't. So I don't think I'm that much like back in the day. And I think so these outside influences and the way we parent and all this stuff has affected kids. And I think so when you have that talented team, you still want to make sure you're trying to— you really got to work hard. We used to try to work hard to develop roles for guys that were besides just scoring points because everyone kind of likes to score points, you know, and that's kind of the thing that your parents and your friends talk about. How did Johnny's game go? 2 points. They don't say he took 3 charges and some loose balls. Well, in the Midwest they do. You guys are a little bit different, you know, back in the day, you know, like that kind of player. But like, you know, and you talk about regional, like Southern California has always been kind of about athleticism and like it's just sort of regions of basketball as a sport thing. But like trying to reinforce the things about the game that you want become like hypercritical. And I think a leader can do that. But I think and if you're talking about teammates, teammates, like, I think, like, there's teammates that, that are about— when they're about the right thing, that too can be contagious. When your best player— we had a best player, he's going to be Abouka Akori. He's the first going to be— he was all ACC, led the ACC in scoring freshman, and we lost— we're going to lose him this year. He's going to be drafted, will be drafted in the first round, uh, and, and, and he was about the right things. And so that ripple effect for him— he was our leading scorer, but he was our hardest worker. He was a good teammate, a little bit quiet as a leader and not a vocal leader, but he was a really good teammate and about winning and not about getting accolades for himself. And that has a ripple effect. So, I think when you have the, like some talent you maybe just have to take because they're so darn good. And then, those marginal decisions, what are you emphasizing? You know, to let someone on your team, like in this role, we just need a really good glue guy, you know, the proverbial glue guy and the character person that's going to make those, you know, be a good influence on on the, the everybody else. So, um, yeah, so that's, it's interesting that the all, a lot of talent's an interesting problem to have too, and I think it is getting harder.

Yeah. So to wrap things up, I'm wondering if, imagine that you're walking into, um, into a group of people. It could be a sports team, athletic team, it could be a business, and they're struggling for whatever reason. Either they're losing a lot of games or business isn't as profitable as they want to be. What would you address first and why?

So as a leader, I think assuming that the leader is going to be able to discern a competent strategy. So a leader's got to have a strategy that's going to work. So like if I walk in as a coach, I'm saying I know how to win basketball games. I just need the right pieces. So assuming strategy aside, like I'm not going to look at strategy and I know if it's a different market, I don't know how to be effective. I got to figure out the strategy that's going to make this work. And then, you know, figure out where we're going, how we're doing. But assuming that's taken care of, I'm looking just at the people that work on the team. I'm going to want to address, is everybody about the right things? Does everyone want to be here? Is there someone that doesn't fit? Like, are they— is this— where's the points of resistance? And just sort of have, you know, the get to know, like, just to figure things out. Like, where's the energy giver and the enthusiasm and the people like, like winning is hard, like, like being successful in a business or winning, winning basketball games is hard. So who's on board here? Where are the resistance? And if so, why? And address that because, and especially if that person's charismatic in a locker room, if there's a charismatic Cancer, for lack of a better word, that someone that's like, you know, undermining things and has people's influence because he's a really good player. So leaders develop in locker rooms in business because because they're, one, they're talented, the highest paid guy, the most successful. If he's a Cancer, then that, how are you going to handle that is going to be important to address. And you've got to sort of take that on a little bit because if you make the decision to live with that, even though he's undermining things in terms of the strategy, then that's going to be, that'll be a problem. And the other way people take on, get influence in a group is just by virtue of the personality. Some of us are more fun. Some of us are, you know, you know, we got a guy in our locker room who's just a really— luckily he's got a really good attitude. He doesn't play a ton, but he's just a good guy. People like him. He's got jokes. He's fun. He works pretty hard. He's— he helps us. And I— so like, that's a valuable role that he helps others. But if he was to be a negative and a problem and the guy rolling his eyes in the back of film room or the guy on the Zoom call who's sending chat messages to somebody else going, oh, here we go again, again, you know, like those, like the way you deal with those, everybody's watching. Because here's a lesson you learn from basketball and coaching is you can, the, the, the players can fool the coaches, but they don't fool each other. And so like, if someone's, if someone's pulling something over on the leader, the other people know. And so you got to sort of find those.

Yeah. Oh man, this is good. Great stuff, man. I'm so glad that we had a chance to catch up and talk. We, again, this is not our typical, you're not our typical guest, Yes, I was gonna say, but, uh, man, it was fantastic.

And I think there's so many— I'm honored for that. I'm honored for being outside your lane a little bit.

Yeah, but it was so many parallels and, uh, and, and, and awesome stories. So, um, hey, um, any final words of wisdom, um, that you wanna leave with the folks? And then also, if folks wanted to connect with you, uh, what's the best way? Like LinkedIn, something like that?

Yeah, LinkedIn. I'm trying to get a little Substack going, uh, you know, the Coach Revenaud on Substack to then LinkedIn, just Eric Revenaud on LinkedIn and trying to build that up and trying to have these conversations. Because, you know, I've just become so passionate about teams. And I think, like you say, there's a little bit of momentum toward us questioning our leaders and us being cynical, you know, us thinking a lot of our problems have to do with our leaders. And we We all know leadership's hard and there's issues that are there, but we all as team members can have an impact. And I think it changes your future. I think everyone's true agency and true ability to change their future and create the world they want, it lies in their ability to be a great teammate.

I don't know a better way to end than that. Fantastic. Yeah. All right, Eric, this has been a lot of fun, man. I appreciate you.

All right, thank you. Nice talking to you.

All right, take care. Thanks for joining us today. We know the path to continuous improvement can be challenging to walk alone. That's why Gemba Academy exists, not just to provide training, but to be your partner in problem solving. Whether you're just taking your first steps or leading a global transformation, our goal is to help you bridge the gap between knowing learning and doing. Beyond our library of Lean and Six Sigma resources, we're here to coach and guide you through your journey, whether that's through personalized support or joining us for a live training to get that immersive, hands-on experience. To learn more, go to gembaacademy.com.