From COO To Solo Founder | Authenticity Inc. Podcast Ft. Rhe

All right, welcome everybody to, uh, which by everybody I of course just mean, hi mom, uh, to whatever the heck this show is called. Um, my name's Luke and this, I'm Marie.

I am a professional organizer and a baby entrepreneur. Is that what you call it?

That's right.

Yeah.

Baby entrepreneur.

Started my business 6 months ago, 7 months ago. So still very, very new.

So it's July. So you started in January. January. Okay, great. So for the new year. So you started in January and what were you up to? And like, tell me about the transition between like, I was doing this and then this is the stuff that I liked. This is stuff that I didn't like. A lot of times when people hear these stories, it's like, I used to make minimum wage and now I'm a trillionaire. And like, bitch, there were a couple of things that happened.

Yeah, you did a few other things.

Yeah.

So before I was a COO of a small payroll company, about 30 employees, I have 20-ish years in accounting and payroll. Experience. And honestly, what made me start thinking about doing something else was a really bad day at work. Really?

Okay, so there is a story.

Yes, there is a story. So December and January, anybody who's ever worked in payroll, they're terrible trying to close out the year, do W-2s, all of that. Everybody wants everything done first, immediately. So I had a really, really bad day at work and I came home and said, I don't know if I want to do this. Forever, which previously had been what I thought I was going to do forever. And my husband said, what would you do? Okay. And so I started really thinking about it. What would I do? Because it had never really been a— never really seemed feasible that I could actually do something else on my own. I'd been doing this for so long.

And you honestly were like, I'll just do this until I retire.

Yes.

You weren't like, I thought I'm miserable for 20 years. And it's like, you just had a You just had a shitty day.

Yeah. Okay. I liked what I did. I liked my job. Like I said, I've been doing it for 20-ish years, so I enjoyed that type of work. It's very structured. It's very orderly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like people would be like, oh, do you like math? That's not math.

No, that's just—

I'm not doing trig. I'm assigning things where they go, categorizing things. Okay. So, you know, it kind of goes with my personality type. I like that stuff. OCD. Yeah. So, um, yeah, I never really thought that it was feasible to do something else because I had went back to school as an adult. Okay. So I started— you want my whole life story?

Please, let's do it. Yeah, we got time. I got gigs and gigs a day on this thing.

Yeah, yeah. So my whole life story, I first went to school right out of high school and did the stupid thing of I'm going to get an associate's degree and that'll be enough, and I'm going to get married at 19. Okay. So that's what I did.

Okay.

And then I ended up divorced at 23. Okay. Found myself a single mom at 26 and was like, oh, I can't live, I can't survive.

Yeah.

So I went back to school. My daughter was 8 months old when I went back to school and graduated when she was 4.

Okay.

So, wow.

So 3 extra years. Good God.

Okay.

Yeah.

I went back with the intent of being a CPA at that point. Like, I did all the requirements.

Yeah.

And so the whole accounting thing kind of happened by accident. When I first graduated with my associate's degree, I got a call from an advisor at school that's like, there's somebody looking for a bookkeeper locally and I recommended you because you're awesome. I'm like, I don't want to do that, but okay, I need a job.

What did you, what kind of calls did you think you were going to get? Oh, you weren't interested in accounting at all?

This was forever ago. This was like when I was like 22.

But your associate's, was it in accounting?

No, no, it was like just in business and office.

Oh, okay.

From like Southeast Kentucky community.

Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I had, God, I'm going to like have therapy in here. Yeah, I had a full ride to Lincoln Memorial University in high school, squandered it and went to community college.

Why did you— what do you mean you squandered it? Like, you—

I did one semester and said, I don't know what I want to do, so I'd rather just pay for college and go somewhere worse. And then later I went back and paid them $20 grand a year.

Yeah, this, this is an interesting thing. Oh, you went back to Lincoln Memorial? Oh man, it's so bitter. It's such a bitter taste.

I'm like, can I get that scholarship from 2002 again, please? Can I have that back?

So So, so let me clarify, because this is something that I've sensed about you that I'm like, understanding what people get paid and what they're worth and like raw intelligence, my ability to tell you fewer and fewer words.

Yeah.

And you to understand the implication of those words and the downstream effects of those words. Like, I don't have to turn my brain on because I trust that your brain works well enough to answer a bunch of questions.

I made some really stupid decisions.

Yeah, no, I'm not talking about your life choices. I'm talking about your IQ, bitch. So like, it sounds like you must have gotten good standardized test scores. What was the deal?

Were you like— Yeah, I was a really good student.

Yeah.

I was a really good student, like 4.0. Yeah.

Were your standardized test scores good as well?

Yeah, like ACT and stuff was good.

Okay, correct.

Yeah, I think that's actually what my scholarship was based on.

Was based off, yes.

ACT.

'Cause any idiot can be like, I got a 4.9, you know? Yeah. It's like, Jesus.

Yeah, I took AP classes and I didn't do it on the ACT.

Okay, great.

And then nobody in my— so nobody in my family went to college.

Okay.

Like, I grew up fairly poor.

Yeah.

Bell County, Kentucky.

Yeah.

How familiar are you with that? There's nothing there besides coal and drugs. Yeah.

Yeah. Actually, who's the guy that's like the king of Bell County?

I think Matt Jones, the Kentucky sports radio.

Oh, okay.

He's from there.

Well, there's also a dude that's— who's the king of coal in Bell County? He like, He employs— it's not Jim Host. He just owns a whole bunch of companies. We inducted him into the Kentucky Entrepreneur Hall of Fame.

I don't even know.

Yeah, the most famous.

I mean, Cole's pretty much dead now.

I understand that. But he was—

I guess there's the Ho guy that makes the like Ho of Kentucky, you know, Ho of Kentucky, the homeowners.

What he is.

No, no. His last name is Ho. H-O-E. H-O-E. You've got one in your parking lot.

Oh really?

Yeah, it's like the little manhole cut version. They all say "hole of Kentucky." I found really funny when I was a teenager.

Well, which is exactly how anybody from Eastern Kentucky would pronounce the word "hole." Yeah, "hole of Kentucky." Just put it in the hole.

Just put it in the hole.

Put her out there in the hole.

But no, it's his last name. Wow. One of them was named Harry Ho, but that has a whole different meaning. That has no relevance.

We are in middle school, are we not?

Okay. Harry Ho.

All right, so you were a full ride at Toledo Law, you went for a semester, said, I don't know what to do with my life. Then you were married at the time.

I got married, yeah.

You got married in that—

At 19.

At 19, great. And then you went to community college for a—

Like a general office.

General office thing.

Like I had no idea what I wanted to do, so I just had—

So you're the smartest motherfucker in community, like probably, what'd you get on your ACT?

32.

Goddamn.

Yeah, at least 30.

I don't remember now. Better than me.

A long time ago.

Yeah, sure, sure. But like, so you're the smartest son of a bitch at this community college, and then you are— then you finish community college and you were just— you got a phone call about accounting type thing. Yeah, that sounds like it sucks, but whatevs.

I was working at JCPenney selling jewelry and trying to find something better at that point.

It sounds like a step up.

Yeah, it was a step up.

And let's bookmark this for the kind of negotiations that you're going through right now at this stage of your business, what you will say no to, what you won't. Yeah. So that again, there are 19-year-olds that are looking at you at 41, 42, 43, or 41. Yeah. And they're like, and here's— please don't— yeah, I mean, 20, 42 in a few months. That's right. So they're looking at you and they're like, oh, well, they could potentially judge themselves by comparison. So hearing this story is going to really help them understand the choices that you made to get where you are.

Yeah, I made a lot of really stupid choices, as most of us do.

But I think if you were to talk to, if you were 20 and you were looking at this 41-year-old, you know, you're just finished your associates and like, I don't know what I wanna do. Like, I want them to understand how far you have come. And so that they don't, one of the things that happens a lot of times is some billionaire, I mean myself, not a billionaire, but way richer than I used to be, may be talking about these are the problems that I'm solving in life right now. These are the things, these are the people that I don't allow into my life. These are the opportunities that I say no to. This is what my day-to-day looks like, and it's drastically different than what I did a long time ago. And so I don't want people to take whatever advice you're giving eventually about what you did here and be like, oh, well, I'm 20 and I don't have any options and I'm pregnant and barefoot or whatever situation you were in and think, I'm gonna do what Ree said. Like, I want them to have enough context to know what applies.

Yeah, there's a lot of steps there. A lot of steps. It doesn't just happen.

Doesn't just happen. So you're 20-ish, 21.

20-ish, I think 21.

Yeah, got your bookkeeper job.

Got my bookkeeper job. Have a kid. No, not yet. She came later. So just married at that point. It's like I'm an adult. Yeah, we've been together. It was my first real boyfriend at that point. Yeah, we got married and it was a poor choice. And it turned out we had nothing in common besides being in law school. Yeah. So, okay. Okay. So anyway, got the bookkeeper job and I was like, hmm, kind of like this. Okay. I like this. It's nice.

It's organized.

Yeah. And they were doing all sorts of stuff. Like they had like the big green ledgers, which granted, this was 2004. I know, but they had like everything on paper and I'm like, how about Excel? You guys ever use Excel? They're older. They're like in their 80s now.

Oh, wow.

So they like, basically I went in and found all these ways to make what they were doing way more streamlined than what they were doing, even though I'd never done this before.

Yeah. Yeah.

So they owned two Fazolis. So it was like all the bookkeeping, the payroll, all of that for their Fazolis, accounts payable, everything. Yeah, all of it. So I was like, oh, I like this. And the lady, it was a husband and wife that owned the business. The woman decided I was her daughter.

Okay. And she just took you under her wing. Yes.

And she was like, you need to go back to school. Like, she was like really prompting me. You really need to go back to school. You need to get an accounting degree. You need to do more, basically, even if it means leaving me.

Oh, that's so thoughtful of her.

Yeah. So she actually eventually talked me into it. So I started working for her in 2005. It was like the beginning of the year, 2005. Yeah. And then in 2007, I went through a divorce.

I was 23.

Okay. And she managed to get me a job at her accounting firm in London. So it's kind of—

so she owns Fazoli's and she owned an accounting firm?

The accounting firm that did her taxes.

Oh, okay.

Not her accounting firm.

Okay.

So accounting firm she used.

She used. Okay, cool.

She called them up and she was like, you need to hire wherever you can. They did an interview with me, and I guess I didn't know that I came that highly recommended, so I thought I bought it, you know. I was like, I got to get this job. I was up on that. And I was in the middle of a divorce, so I was like, I really need this job. Yeah, like, I really need it. And so then they told me later, like, they recommended you and they're super hard to place, so we knew you had to be good.

Oh, the lady that recommended you? So we're like, you're— they were like, the interview is a formality.

Yeah, it's like, please. And they said you were amazing, so we knew we were gonna hire you.

Okay, you didn't really need to go. You could have just walked onto the job and we would have figured it out.

Yeah. So that was O7.

So I think there's an important lesson here, like connections. Connections is not what I'm thinking. Like your interview. So if 20-year-old you is listening, she's at a job and her boss kind of sucks or like things are kind of shitty. It's like your interview is happening that day for the next job or the next opportunity. Like who you are, not at the job interview, but like on a day-to-day basis is really like the the skill that you're bringing or the asset that you're building. You are the asset you're building in the marketplace. So like, how good are you with shitty bosses? That makes you a more valuable employee. You know, how good are you with good bosses? Like, everybody can be awesome with a good boss. But assuming this person is hard to please, which—

I didn't think they were.

Yeah, I thought they were great.

I had no issues. But then I found that out later. They're like, oh, they were really hard to please. So they thought you were amazing. We knew you had to be great. Yeah, they're hard to please.

I think they're to just ask. No problem.

Okay.

So like, yes, I think it is, it's connections, but it's also like you are the result or you are the gift that you're giving yourself as you're building your skills and your reputation. Right. Yeah. That's just an interesting thing for you to have. Like if someone could have told you like, hey, you already have this job.

Yeah.

You've been interviewing for it for 2 years.

Yeah.

Like it pays down the risk and for you as you're starting to hire people, like, it matters a lot if I'm like, they already worked with me for 2 years. If you can get a real conversation— legally, you're not allowed to as an employer. They call and say, this person sucked. You can't be like, yeah, they're terrible. That's why I let them go. You could just confirm like, these are the dates they worked.

This is when they worked.

That's it. Yeah. But anyway, that's an important thing that you did not know at the time of like, oh, I've come so highly recommended, I can relax in this interview.

Yeah.

Because honestly, you probably would have done better in the interview.

Yeah. Oh, for sure. I went home and I was like, oh, that I did not do.

Oh, okay.

That was like my first real, like, full-time big girl job.

Yeah.

First, because that was a part-time bookkeeping.

Oh, okay.

That's what I was looking for.

Full-time. A real.

Yeah. Full-time benefits.

Yeah.

Divorce. Yeah.

All you needed.

Yeah.

And you didn't have a kid this time.

No.

Okay. All right.

No, that's a whole separate story. We will— Sure.

We will skip whatever part you want to skip.

Yeah. So yeah, that was '07. And then she started really pushing me more, go back to school. And then she offered to pay for me to go back to school. Oh, cool. So she actually did pay my tuition. I still had to pay other things and ended up having to get like babysitter, like, yeah, yeah, there was all those life expenses with going back to school and not being able to work as many hours, blah, blah, blah. So that lady's name was Donna Smith.

Yeah, she changed your life.

Yes.

Oh, that's so beautiful.

Yeah, she really— I mean, she's always pushed me. I'm like, when she runs into my mom because she still lives down there. She's like, how's our girl doing?

How's our child? Yeah, yeah, that's beautiful. Yeah, cool.

So they really pushed me a lot. She was like, I'll pay for a baby, like, I'll pay for whatever you need, you're going back to school.

Yeah.

Now I do think she's probably disappointed I'm not a CPA.

Oh really?

Okay. That's what she wanted me to do.

Like, I believe in you. Yeah, I think she'll be fine, uh, once your business is off the ground. Yeah. And it's going to be a minute before she'll see that, which is also— you have a wonderful relationship. I stepped away from medical school to start a business incubator that's 16 years old and has never made money. Even if it did, though, even at this age, I do not think my parents would be like, oh, I get that. That makes sense. Totally see why you did that. Super supportive.

All that stuff. Were they pretty mad?

They were confused. And to be fair, the math doesn't math. Like, because the currency they are using is risk.

Right here.

And money. How much money do you make for how much risk you're taking?

Yeah.

And that is it.

And so— So you're just a total disappointment. I am.

I am. Yeah. So like, I am—

I'm joking.

I know that you're joking, but I just— again, there are people that are arguing with their parents right now that are afraid. They don't have the support that they wish that they had.

Yeah.

And I'll be honest, that was the hardest part about stepping away from medical school was I knew that my parents did not understand it, didn't approve of it. Did not want me to do it. And so in your case, she's like, I, I'm willing to support you in this particular way.

Yeah.

And if you're not as attached to it, but like, she will not get it potentially until it works. And in some cases, I think with my parents, they will not get it even if it does, does work, because they'll say, oh, I'm glad that that worked, but just because you won the lottery doesn't mean it's smart to play the lottery, right?

So yeah, obviously medical school isn't safe.

And I went back and all that stuff. But so wait, you—

this isn't about me, but you went to medical school, left, and then went back to medical school?

Yeah. So I did the first 2 years of medical school, started Awesome Inc. during my second year.

Okay.

And then took a year off, lived in the garage of Awesome Inc., and then went back to medical school and had to retake my second year. It took me 6 years to get through a 4-year program. Because I started a business that is really cool, makes a big impact, has filled my cup spiritually in a lot of ways, and has made me— well, it's paid for my cell phone bill for 15 years. So maybe, but it also cost me again. Yeah, I don't think I've broken even on the business. Yeah.

But it had other investments.

It had other bits of other currencies that were valuable to me. And we will get into what's valuable to you as you're making some of those changes in your Very, very early 40s. Yeah, very, uh, extremely early.

Barely even in my 40s.

You're basically 39.

Yeah, pretty much. So basically the moral of the whole story is everybody makes decisions that people are like, what are you doing? And almost everybody— some people follow like a little path and do the right thing, but most people—

only you know the algorithm that is happening in your brain about the decisions that you make. And one of the things that I care about happening for you and for anybody else that I would know and influence is they would conscious and accepting of the algorithm that they are using. Yeah, that's it. So you are 27 now, you've gotten your accounting degree, you've worked for this accounting firm.

It took me a little while to go back and get my accounting degree. Okay, took me a little prodding. Okay, so yeah, I started there in '07, uh, working full-time, and I actually—

'07, you were not 27?

Okay, yeah, '07. I don't know how old I was. Yeah, what is that, 23, 24?

23, 24.

I was born in '83, whatever.

Okay, that's helpful. Me too, I was born in '83.

Whatever that math comes out.

Okay, sure.

So I was working for them and I was also still doing the bookkeeping part-time.

Part-time. Okay.

So I was working full-time at one job, part-time at another. Got divorced. Everything was fine. Had an apartment, lived on my own. I was good. Yeah. Fast forward a couple of years, ended up having a baby. Not by choice. I'm not— I wanted her, but it wasn't planned.

Yeah, it wasn't unplanned for sure.

It wasn't a plan. Sure.

Yeah.

Yeah. And so then I was a single mom and I was like, oh, shit.

Yeah, yeah.

I can't afford to live.

Yeah.

And that's when I really started like thinking, okay, I'm going to go back to school.

So I went, oh, that's what pushed you over the edge.

So she was born December '09. I went back to school August of 2010. So she was 8 months old.

Okay.

Okay. And that's what really did it because I was like, I can't keep doing what I'm doing.

Even with a full-time and a part-time job.

Yes. Wow. So at that point, my bills came out to $800 more a month than I made.

Okay.

And I was like putting groceries on credit cards, and I was like, this is not sustainable.

It's a full-time and a part-time job.

I didn't make very good money.

Holy shit. No shade to your employers, but also living wage, bro.

Yeah.

And you didn't live somewhere nice.

You lived— I lived in a single wide. Yeah. Yeah.

And you had a full-time job and a part-time job, and you were— where physically did you live?

Like, in London?

In London, Kentucky. My point is Not downtown London. So if we're talking about like, oh, living in Lexington, Kentucky, which is nice, living in Cincinnati, which is higher expenses, or living in a lower cost of living, living in a real city, as someone might claim, like Austin or, you know, or whatever, it's like really, really tough. Or at least, yeah, you were, you were getting fucked pretty good.

Yeah. So I was like, I can't keep living like that. I'm racking up credit card debt for consumables, like not making bad choices. I just have no money. Yeah.

Yeah.

So I actually— oh my God, I'm telling you my whole life story. That's wonderful. This is not anything I'm afraid of talking about.

You can skip any part you want to talk about.

It's not anything bad. It's just, it really all does work together. This is the stuff I tell my 15-year-old. I'm like, people make bad choices because she's like, what am I going to do when I grow up? I'm like, most people don't know that at 15.

Yeah.

Like, we expect 18-year-olds to have their whole life planned out and they're still children. They really are.

Yeah. Well, this is also helpful. Again, like, if someone's watching this and they're like, I am 21 or 31 or whatever, or 41, you know, and they're like, I want them to see like you are an impressive human. That's why I'm talking to you, why you work with me. Otherwise I would just find someone. Actually, I would have still hired you. I wouldn't have invested as much in this relationship because you were impressive. And so people can be impressed by you. They— and I immediately want to— once they have you on a pedestal, I want to start closing the gap of what happened there. And so you have, again, made foolish choices. And that way they're like, well, I can't, I can't have my own business because I'm also 41, but I've made bad choices in life. And you're like, bitch, you don't have a monopoly on shitty decisions.

Yeah. Oh yeah, I made some pretty stupid— I mean, I've never been like, never did drugs, never went to jail, anything like that.

Other dumb stuff you can do.

I've done plenty of other stuff.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, completely derailed my life.

Yeah.

So let's see, where was I?

You're going back to school now because you, because you had this kid and you couldn't afford to feed a single woman living in double wide trailer. Sorry, single wide, not a double wide.

Single wide trailer.

Uh, despite having 1.5 jobs and living in fucking nowhere. Yeah, that sucks.

Actually, I'm sorry, at that point I only had the full-time job. I couldn't juggle both.

Oh, okay. All right, so only one full-time job, and it was a semi-talent-based job, like you had to know something.

I didn't make a lot.

Well, I know, but the point is, typically the more complicated, higher skills. Yeah, the higher skills.

Wasn't like I was working at Walmart or somewhere, which So many people do.

So I don't know what the hell they're doing.

Like, I don't know how they make it.

There's a level of struggle that like I am detached from because I went to college that my parents paid for.

Yeah.

Then I went to graduate school, which was paid for because I got scholarships. Then I just took out loans for 6 or 7 years, honestly, probably 10 or 8 or 9 all in. But like, when I got out, The money is so weird. You know, I made so much money so quickly and normally you gradually would go up. And so I just don't have—

You were able to— Yeah, you didn't have to struggle.

Well, I didn't have to.

I haven't even gotten to the real struggle.

Yeah, we're not even there yet. So I'm just kind of comparing to like realizing I don't know what it's like to be in your shoes, which is a silly thing to say out loud. But like, even though my economic reality was I don't make any money. I'm living off loans.

Yeah.

It's going to be years before anything good happens.

Yeah.

And I went from negative $50,000 to then like about $50,000 with hundreds of thousands of like $300,000+ of debt. Like the first year that I worked, I went from $50,000 to $500,000. And that's just not— you make $50,000, then you make $60,000, then you make $65,000.

Right. Yeah.

That's normal.

$70,000. Yeah.

And so I'm just, just it's landing on me how disconnected I am.

Well, I mean, it's the whole privilege thing. Like, people are like, no, there's no privilege. Yes, sir. I mean, I have privilege because I'm white. Yeah, you know, you have privilege because you're white and a man and you had those economic things. That's just how it is.

I wouldn't deny that.

It's not to say that you didn't work hard. It's just to say I also got help.

Yeah, I worked hard and I got help. You know, like, I also— it's funny because, like, I, as an athlete, I was Mr. Hustle, like, on the basketball team, whatever, and I was the worst player. Like, I worked hard and I didn't get anything for it. Yeah, it was terrible. And I've also worked hard and whatever, I've gotten something for it. So yeah, so you're— so you're working this job, you go back to school.

Yeah, so I actually— that's where the real struggle comes in.

Oh, tell me about that.

I don't know how— I don't know how I'm going to do this. Okay, how am I going to go to school with an 8-month-old baby? She was not an easy baby. She cried all the time. She had terrible reflux. She sleep. We didn't sleep for like a year. I don't even know how I survived. Like, I actually passed out once from exhaustion. Like, woke up on the floor.

Oh my God.

Like, we slept less than 2 hours a night for—

me? I mean, she and you?

She and I.

All by yourself?

By myself.

Full-time job and full-time student?

Wasn't a student yet.

Okay.

I was like, how am I going to possibly add that in?

Oh, so you're—

everything—

you are literally passing out.

Yes.

It's just a job.

Okay. Yes. I'm like, how am I going to do this? So what I ended up doing at that point, I lived in London in my little single wide trailer. This is where the real struggle comes.

Yes, get us to the, to the actual most inspiring part of your story. Yeah.

So in July of that year, so July of 2010, I put in my notice at my job and told them I can't keep doing this. Like, I can't, I have to make a choice. Like, I have to do something and I can't keep doing this. I moved into a shed. Okay. And my parents, they didn't have any extra room, but they had an outbuilding. Oh, was it an out shed? Yeah, it's like a tiny home.

Yeah, yeah.

It had, um, cold running water. It didn't have hot water. Okay. And it had like a mounted heater and a window space heater. Yeah, like open window air conditioner. Didn't have a bathroom. I had to walk to their house, which, I mean, it was in their backyard.

Sure, sure.

Yeah, so I lived in a shed. Uh-huh. I moved in there and, uh, let's see, I went back to school full-time and I worked part-time again for the people who had pushed me to go back to school. Like, she was like, we'll pay you. Yes, we'll pay you. You just work as you can, basically around your school schedule. Yeah. And I got help from the government, which I was so against.

Really?

Yes, I was very against it.

Like, where did that belief come from that you shouldn't get help from the government?

I guess my family, like, we grew up without a lot, but we never really got help. Like, we qualified for all of it, but my dad was very proud about it. I remember filling out the paperwork for school where it's like, what's your income? Because you might qualify for free lunch. Yeah. And he was like, don't fill that out, it's none of their business. And like, I look back and I remember at one point seeing something he filled out and there was 5 of us. This would have been '97-ish and he made $17,000. Oh my gosh. Yeah. So we qualified for it.

For all of it.

Yeah. Everything. And they didn't get any help. Wow.

Yeah.

So I just had it in my mind like, I can't do that. And then we— I did get WIC with my daughter because her formula—

Women, Infants, and Children, right? Yeah. Yeah.

Her formula, when I found out like she had reflux and she had a milk protein allergy and a soy protein allergy. Oh, like we had to go see like a GI doctor and she was on formula that cost $600 a month., and I paid for it and I made about $1,200 a month.

Oh my gosh.

I was like, oh, I have to take help. Like, I have to. So I did that first. And then in order to go back to school, I got like, she was on Medicaid. I got food stamps. I ended up getting HUD housing. Like, I did all of that. I've paid all of that back many times. What's that?

HUD housing? You paid it all back?

They pay your rent.

Okay.

So like, you have to get certain houses. They have to be approved through the government. And I paid $80 a month. For rent based— it's income-based.

Income-based.

Yeah. But it's not like the housing authority, like apartments. Like I rented a house. Yeah. Yeah.

So is there— this is so interesting.

Yeah. You didn't know any of this.

Super inspiring. I was like, holy crap, you are a bad bitch. This is wild.

So you're living in a shed and—

Yeah. So you're living in a shed.

Yeah. It's funny too, because I was living in this shed.

Sorry, I interrupted.

I was living in the shed and I would go look at these HUD houses or these houses that weren't on HUD and they were like, oh, we can't approve this. They need to replace the carpet. I'm like, I'm living in a shed with a I don't have a toilet and hot water. I'm fine with this dingy carpet.

Yeah, yeah.

Please help me get this out.

Wow. How long were you in the shed? Let's see.

August to January.

So 5 months.

Yeah. Yeah, it was a long 5 months. I bet.

I bet. And so you had in terms of— so I want to articulate who was helping you.

Yeah.

Like your parents watched your daughter a little bit?

Yes, she watched her while I went to school and I had class and when I went to work.

Okay. The, the government helps. Let's just talk about the government services. So like HUD, which $80 a month apartment versus what, $800 or whatever it would have been.

Yeah, probably like $600 at that time. Okay. Sure. They paid a lot.

So Women, Infants and Children program, which was to pay for your formula.

Formula.

Yeah. Right. Food stamps.

Yeah.

Which was to pay for like actual food.

Actual food.

Medicaid was to pay for any form of health care.

And I couldn't get it on me. I just had it on her.

Just on the—

I didn't have insurance.

You didn't have insurance at any time.

And that's it.

Is that— that's it.

That's it. Okay.

This is just such a beautiful story. You're impressive. That's why I'm interviewing you. You had a full fucking ride and you're not lazy.

Yeah.

And you're not— you're not on drugs, right? You just had a child with a man that was not— couldn't Yeah, whatever.

And he's still like, he's in her life, but we were never married. It was not planned. And I was mostly about—

yeah. And he wasn't like there to be there. So this is a great—

he would come visit.

Yes. This is obviously very similar to my own dad, uh, but really, absolutely. Yeah, left when I was 2, uh, gave me up for adoption to my stepdad. Oh, because, you know, whatever. Um, and so, and my stepdad, very reliable, yada yada, uh, pay for him, but like This is a beautiful example of like, I'm so thankful for the taxes that I pay.

Yeah.

I'm so thankful to pay for you.

People who are doing those things.

All of the stuff that you were doing. Yeah. That is like, I will raise my taxes all day long.

Yeah.

For that.

Yeah. I went from being like hardcore conservative to not so much during that time because I was like, there's a lot of people out here who are really trying. I'm going to cry.

Yeah.

Who are really trying and not doing anything wrong and they're struggling. Like, so it made a change for me, like, and how I looked at everything. Because I also saw how hard it was to get some of that. Like, it is not easy to get some of that help. Like, you had to go to all these appointments. Some of these people don't have cars. How are they doing this? Like, I had a car.

Step away from their job.

Exactly. I had a flexible job. Somebody that was working with me, you know, in a school schedule. It was mostly evenings. So I would have to go sit at the food stamp office for 3 hours.

And parents—

And parents to wait and sit. Yes.

So this is such a beautiful example. I listened to an Andrew Tate interview yesterday for like an hour. Again, he's this bad guy and women are subjugated to men and all this shit. And he's like, your job as a man is yes, women shouldn't get to vote, they should do whatever a man says, they should be obedient. Andrew Tate. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So he's not popular. Yeah, he's like, and in exchange for women, like, not, like, not having to work, like, women get the benefit of, like, just raise the kid.

Yeah.

And do what I say. Yeah, that's shitty. Yeah, that's not woke. That's not liberal. That's not all the things that are offending you right now, right? He's like, yeah, but you know what you would have gotten if you would have gotten an Andrew Tate? Like, if his— in his worldview, he'd have been like, that motherfucking man that impregnated you, his— like, he should be literally starving.

Yeah.

Like, he should be skipping meals for days on end for you and your family and what he had built. And so, like, it'd be nice if females had more power and also the shit. But he literally even used the example. He's like, as the man, like, I don't have any authority. Yeah. Over my wife to tell her you have to do what I want. You know, you have to stay home, you have to take care of the kids. Like, I will go hunt. You stay here and do what the fuck I say. He's like, I don't have the authority to do that.

Yeah.

And so why should I then have the responsibility of all of it?

Yeah.

If I don't have the authority to own my household.

Yeah.

Which is super offensive to women these days, then I shouldn't have the responsibility. And he literally said, and so, you know who does have the responsibility? The government.

Yeah.

And so fine, I will like impregnate every woman that is interested and that I'm willing to impregnate. Yeah, I am willing to support them.

Yeah.

And be there, like, to financially and resources and all that stuff and a little bit of attention, whatever. But he's like, but if they are not willing to get on my fucking program, I don't feel obligated because I also pay my goddamn taxes. And apparently that's the society that we live in. Because also, if both sides of that—

yeah, for sure.

And I never— this is such an interesting thing to hear what you're talking about because It is what happened in your life. Yeah. And so he's like, if I can't— if I don't get the response, if I don't have the benefits, then why do I have the responsibility?

That's exactly what I talk about when we get to why I left my job. Oh, that's so awesome. Benefits and responsibility.

Yeah. And so he's just like, I'll just, again, impregnate who is down with it. If they're down with the program, great. If they're not, he's like— because the other thing that he says screws men As he's like, let's say I, I do get married, which he's not married to anyone. He's like, if I then get married to that person, then the government says that they get half of everything I've sacrificed forever for. And like, she didn't have to make any of the sacrifices that she made. She gets half of what I've done. So like, yeah, I'm never getting married because it's a terrible deal for me. Yeah, you know, so it's not the best deal for women either. Tell me about it. Yeah, give me, give me your, your side of it.

Have you not heard, like, there's like this great shift basically And so it's kind of like I'm happily married, so I'm good with mine, but I have an actual partner. So there's a lot of women who, you know, the man wants that deal, but he doesn't want any of the bad parts of that. He doesn't want to work. He doesn't want to sacrifice.

Oh yeah.

He wants to be able to tell her what to do.

Oh yeah.

He wants her to do 100% of the stuff around the house and 100% of the stuff with the kids, but also work for him.

Yes.

While he does nothing.

Yeah.

A lot of women who are like, screw that, I'm not interested in that. I don't need another child to take care of.

Yeah.

There's like a whole shift towards women are like getting divorced, not getting married, because they're like, what's the point of this? So I feel like there's a disconnect from both sides because I can see both sides of that. Yeah, for sure.

And I hear Andrew Tate, he would just be like, yeah, women should marry men. Yeah, like his definition of what a man— what is an alpha male? Like, you should marry an actual man.

Yeah.

And get the benefits and the drawbacks of that. And I what society might say is like, that guy that's like, doesn't— is demanned by Andrew Tate's, like, whatever, would be like, yeah, well, he's probably like a really good listener. He's probably so in touch with his emotions and he's probably like really playful with the kids. And Andrew would say he's a beta male simp. Like, you didn't marry a man, you married another woman. That kid has two moms. Yeah. You know, he's like, and so like, yeah, you maybe get the benefits of he's more emotionally available. He might listen to you when you cry. And Andrew Tate's just like, deal with your fucking emotions, bitch. I've already paid for the house. Yeah, I'm off to like build and conquer more shit. Yeah. But I, I had not— the other woman that was there was a sex worker and they were— thought they would kind of argue. They agreed on a lot of stuff. She did not bring up what you just did of like— and you are an exception to this rule because your husband's awesome. Yes, they are.

But if— yeah, but there's a lot of women who are in that position. I have friends and family who— they both work full-time. The woman earns basically what the man earns. And the man comes home and kicks his feet up and has a beer and watches TV, and she cooks, does homework, takes the kids everywhere. He doesn't even know what size clothes they wear, who their doctor is, who their teacher is. She does it all. Yeah. And then he wants to know why she's tired.

Yeah. And, and, and that does happen a lot. I agree. And it's so interesting, and you just wish people could like see it.

Yeah, just see it.

Because I have friends who wake up get up before their wife does, make breakfast for the kids, take the kids to school, do all that stuff, then go work a 12-hour day, then come home while the kids have been at school. And their wife's not interested in sex. Yeah, because she hasn't had a— I don't know what is— what bad things have happened to her that day, but I'm sure it wasn't an easy day, whatever. But the kids were at school for several hours.

Yeah.

And then also, in addition to not being interested in sex, are like, just sweep the damn floor and like have food, you know. So it's like, and And so then they come home and then they made dinner. So it's literally the same thing. Yeah. And it's like, can we decide that there's like—

like a happy medium, a happy medium, a splitting of roles?

So I have another friend that's like, the wife wants it to be equivalent in every way.

That's almost impossible.

Yeah. So, and but again, he's like, she stayed home, he got a whole bunch of degrees and increased his earning power. So he's just like, the dude, Even if I wanted to go backwards, honey, like you can't make more than $30,000 a year, right? I can make, let's just say, $200,000 a year. So would you rather make $0 and I bring in $200,000 and then all of that money goes to support the living of our family? Yeah. Or should I make $100,000 so that you could make $15,000? Because they both would have to be part-time-ish jobs. Yeah. And then you—

Exactly.

You vacuum half of the living room and I'll vacuum the other half of the living room.

Yeah.

That is equality in the amount of work that they're doing.

But it's not—

it's not an equitable division of labor. Yeah. Yeah. So the thing that's interesting about all of this—

we've been down that whole rabbit hole.

We did. And I didn't expect this. And again, I'm watching this Andrew Tate thing being like, man, I disagree with some of the things that he's saying. I agree with some of the things he's saying. I see how this would play out and I see how rational actors with certain levels of consciousness and certain levels of awareness could make the decisions that they do.

Yeah.

Because if you don't have levels of awareness, then you're making just the same type of stupid decisions you made when you were 20. Like, yeah. And that I made when I was 20.

Yeah. You know. And I also know women who are in that situation that they do say, okay, like, I won't work, I'll take care of it. And they do. They take care of everything around the house.

Yeah. Yeah.

And then the man is out cheating on them or abusing them or treats them like just generally like shit, and now they're stuck. They've got—

because they've given up their earning power.

They have no earning power. They have multiple children. What are they gonna do? Where are they gonna go? So I don't think that's the solution.

Well, I mean, and the answer is— and this is why it's like, if men would just fucking— again, putting my Andrew Tate hat on.

Yeah.

If men would just be men.

Yeah.

And women would just be women, which is not a very woke thing to say.

Then like—

and they— and, and more importantly than man being a man and a woman being a woman is they had the maturity to communicate what they wanted.

Biggest thing.

Yeah. Like more important than like, I want to go make bread and I want to go make bread. You know, analogy or the metaphor there.

Bears or whatever.

Yeah. Bears. Yeah.

Like the communication is huge.

Yeah. Well, actually, but it's awareness of what you even want to communicate because someone could be like, I'm telling them what's going on. Like, bitch, you don't even know. You're lying to yourself.

Yeah.

And I say bitch, I mean man and woman.

Yeah.

Term of frustration. So, um, you said women are fucked too.

Yeah.

Oh yeah, well, that's the idea behind divorce, is that she could say, I get child support, I get alimony. I just had another friend in here yesterday on this whiteboard calculating how much money am I going to have to give up, how many— like, they bought houses. Yeah, exactly. Like, she gets half of all of my assets, plus she gets child support, plus she gets alimony, which is pretty rare, which is alimony isn't as common anymore. Well, she didn't work at all and he makes $200,000. And so it's some percentage times some amount of time that they've been together. Yeah. So like, so that is their outlet. The thing that sucks about that is that like in order for her to get that deal, it's going to take a year or a year and a half. It's going to be a huge pain in her ass or anyone's ass, which is why, like, yes, I get why, like, that law goes to protect women that are in that exact situation.

Yeah.

It would be way fucking easier if their husband would just be less of a dick.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Which is partially also a lot of unpaid labor in that the women do too. I'm going to sound very woke now. Like, okay, so you have this man, you have the woman who's not working. Yeah. Let's say that they're doing what they're supposed to.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The woman is being a woman.

The woman is fucking cleaning, taking care of the kids, making sure things are good at home. She is allowing that man to have the earning power that has by doing what she does. If he was a single dad, he couldn't do that.

Yeah.

And I actually have a friend that her husband said, you don't contribute anything because she made less money. She was like, what would you do if I wasn't here? Yeah, you'd have to leave work earlier. You would have to leave for work earlier. You would have to come home earlier. You would have to go to the parent-teacher conferences. You would have to do all of this stuff that would reduce your earning power.

You would have to pay someone else to do all of the stuff that I'm doing.

Daycare. Yeah. Which is basically quantifiable costs.

Yeah.

So, I mean, it goes both ways.

This is such a great— this is such a great conversation to be like, because not only is the woman doing something— so let's say he's like, yeah, bitch, that's only worth like $40,000. Like, I could pay for all that stuff. And what is happening in my life is I am— I don't have a girlfriend. I don't have a wife. I don't have a partner at all.

So you have to do all those things.

So I hired you. Yeah. Put all my shit away.

Yeah.

And I hired Andrea to make my food and clean my house. Yeah. I hired Tracy to fucking deal with all my other bullshit. And that's outside of, like, all the people that I have.

That's just my personal life stuff. Yeah.

And so however, the argument that she could make to be like, I'm only worth $40,000. She's like, bitch, you would have had to— you would not have been able to afford to go to medical school for 10 years to invest in yourself as the asset. So I should be splitting the asset of your education.

That is where some of that comes in.

And I could—

yeah, you do have the opposite. You have women who never supported, they never helped, they never did anything they were supposed to do. And now they have for nothing. Yeah, you know, you have bad people on both sides.

Well, I would say that what I'm learning in my own life, or what I'm deciding in my own life as much as possible, is to say, um, we are all unaware to greater or lesser degrees. So when you say like there are bad people on, on either side, like, I don't think that your ex-husband is a fundamentally bad human being.

No, he wasn't.

He has a level of maturity, a level of intelligence, a level of awareness, that, like, that he has, period, you know. And so I see the intention— actually, this is beautiful that we're stumbling across— the government's trying to protect the woman. Yeah, to protect the man, to protect the kids. Like, less the man.

They're really sad at most of it, but yeah, but it's such a hard reasoning for— it's such a hard choice. Yeah.

Could you write every law to make it as fair as possible for all the different situations just you and I who haven't practiced any law, they don't know shit about government. We're just like, I've got a few friends, like, well, I got a few friends.

Yeah. I'm like, well, anecdotal evidence.

Yeah. With the 9 people we have between us, the 9 different situations, and we're like, well, the laws don't really help.

Yeah. Like, well, uh, how do they help everyone?

How they— like, we're gonna take this and turn it into 9, you know, 9 million or whatever it is. Like, I'm not gonna make it fair.

Yeah.

Um, but anyway, just in hearing your story so far, I'm like, hey, I'm a little more cool with tax money going to shit, going to help, going to certain, going to certain things.

Yeah.

And I also am more in line with Andrew Tate than I ever thought I would be because he's like, yeah, he thinks that your husband is a piece of shit. That is, that is, that is not— that has walked away from his calling as a man. And there is nothing else. What? Sorry. Yeah. Your ex. Sorry.

Actually, we weren't married. Yes, you and her dad were not married.

Sure.

Yeah.

But yeah, your husband's awesome, actually. He's great. But like, your ex is a piece of shit that is like breaking a covenant with God.

Yeah.

And this is where, like, you get that level of like, oh, wow, that does make sense. That is beautiful. That's like, what a holy, wonderful thing. If you would just step up.

Everybody does what they're supposed to do.

Well, supposed to do by according to God, right? And it's like, oh, and then we're going to use God and what he calls us all to do, to do the most heinous things that humans have ever done to each other, you know? So like, wow, is there like a super sharp edge onto the sword, onto the side of the sword.

There he is. Yeah.

Let's jump back into your story. Where are we at? So, yeah, so you're living in a shed. You moved out of the shed. Did.

Moved out of the shed. Got a HUD house. Yeah. That was a whole adventure because first I rented a house. The day I rented my house, a tornado hit. Oh my God. Tornado in Middlesboro, October 26th, 2010. I rented the house.

And a tornado, like, Sorry, is that the right year?

Sorry, that's the wrong year. No, that's the right year. So I rented a house in October.

Yeah.

And a tornado hit it. Freak tornado.

Like, drove, like, ripped it in half.

The car— it had like a carport and it collapsed. And then it had random roof trusses from other buildings, like, driven into the brick. So it was like insurance claim. Like, I got my deposit back. It was literally the day I paid the deposit.

Like, were you— I had hers.

Yeah, I was going to move some stuff that day and I did.

Wow.

Thank God. I did.

Yeah.

So then that one fell through, obviously. Yeah. And it took 3 more months to find somewhere to rent. Okay.

So that was January.

January. Yeah. I moved in the middle of like a snowstorm with a broken foot. That was— oh my gosh. I broke my foot the week my daughter learned how to walk.

How inspirational, guys. How inspirational.

It was real fun walking around with a broken foot. Yeah. Bobbling. So, so yeah, I went back to school. I finished when she was 4. I got remarried when she was 20 months old. So I told you a little bit about me and David. Yeah, we've been friends since we were 15.

Love this guy. So salt of the earth, motherfucker.

And I love him, obviously. Married.

Yeah, exactly.

Well, so we've been married almost 14 years.

Yeah. Love, by the way, to be clear, love and marriage not necessarily correlated.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's awesome. My best friend.

Yeah, so such a cool guy.

He sees this one day.

Yeah, exactly. It's like, you're my best friend, I love you, babe.

Yeah, so we, we met when we were 15 online. We were friends from 15 until 28 and never met in person.

Wow.

And we don't even look like even— yeah, yeah, like we had talked on the phone, we were like nice face friends, then Facebook friends. Yeah, you remember ICQ?

No, what's that?

Was that chat thing before MSN and AOL and all that?

Before those? Wow, different.

Wow. So we talked through all of that. Okay.

Oh, You went through all those experiences.

We, yeah, like we went through all beautiful. We were friends. Yeah, we were friends, but we both kind of had feelings for each other off and on, but like he would have a girlfriend and then I got married and then I had a baby.

And did you, and you admitted your feelings for each other?

Couple of times. And we would go through times where it's like, I can't talk to you anymore because I can't be friends, like, and you're not available. Yeah, so we would like go like a year or more without even speaking, and then we would, you know, like I would be on MSN or whatever, it would be on, I'm like, hey, how have you been?

So, okay, okay.

So finally, when we were 28, I had an almost 2-year-old. He had just gotten out of a long-term relationship. I was single. It was the first time we had ever been single at the same time.

Okay.

So he literally texted me on August 30th and said, are you sure I can't come see you this weekend?

And meet you for the first time?

For the first time.

Oh man, what a love story.

Yeah, it's a good one.

Love story.

We thought we were talking about business.

I know. Yeah, we're going to talk about like—

Generals.

Yeah, generals and love story. Yeah, exactly. And at some point we're going to start talking about profit margins. Yes.

So he texted me that and I said, don't tempt me because I had nothing going on that weekend. And so he looked up planes. He was in South Dakota and I was in Middle Tennessee. He was in Sioux Falls. You guys. So he was like, plots are actually really cheap for Labor Day. So he came down. We met in person for the first time. He flew back a week later. I should remember this.

Yeah.

With an engagement ring. So we got engaged.

You guys did not fuck around.

No. And my whole family thought I'd lost my mind. Yeah, because I just don't make decisions like that.

But I was sure.

We had known each other for a long time. I felt like, like, okay, everything is what I thought it would be.

Yeah, we just want to make sure that in person everything that translated translates is the same. Yeah, and it was.

So then we got married in October. So we met September 2nd, got engaged September 11th. Oh my God, September 11th. Wow, it was the 10-year anniversary. It was September 11th, 2011. And we were like, we probably could have waited a day. A day? That's his fault.

So He's not trying to fuck around.

Yeah. And then we got married October 28th. So 6 weeks. Wow. That was 2011.

So cool.

It's worked out.

Hell yeah, it has. Yeah. Okay.

I don't even remember how we got on this.

No, that's beautiful. All right, so. So then he moved to Kentucky.

Yes. He quit his job, moved to Kentucky with an engagement ring.

Okay.

Totally. Like, and I was still on assistance at that point. Okay. So combined income, obviously. Became a lot easier. Oh yeah. So I was able to get off of everything, finish school. I worked part-time most of the time through school, and then I graduated school in 2013.

Okay.

So he was with me the first couple of years, last couple of years of me.

Okay.

School.

Okay.

And let's see. Yeah. So then I went to school. I went to work for an accounting firm because that's what I had been doing.

Yeah.

And I was going to get my CPA.

Okay.

And it was a horrible job.

Terrible. Oh, really?

And I was like, I don't want to do this.

How come? What, like, would you like— because you were like, I'm— you went down that road because you're like, this is better than I thought it would be. I didn't even want this job at first.

It was a toxic environment. Okay. Basically, I lasted a year. I actually walked out of that job, which I have never done anything like that in my life. I left them a resignation letter and took my stuff and went home. Uh-huh. Like, I was like, I can't take it. Like, it was like abusive.

So can you tell me a little bit? Like, um, because again, like, one of the things that I want I talk about a lot is that like relationships are the same. Like, like our relationship is non-sexual, it's non-romantic, right? But the principles that we apply, we have to communicate and have boundaries and all that, and all that stuff. And you have to do that with your kids, you have to do that with your husband, you have to do that with not just, uh, customers or clients, with your boss or employees.

So yeah, um, so it was, I mean, it was, there was like somebody there who kind of called the shots and she like gossiped about everybody. It was just a toxic environment and it just kind of trickled down to everything.

The reason that I'm asking is because he gaslit me, or this relationship is toxic, or is not as helpful.

Yeah.

Or even if you are trying to give that advice to someone else, like, hey, you're gossiping, or you're racist, or you're a dick.

Yeah.

Like for Mosey, who I have a, I have a, uh, a thing in here right behind the camera, um, talks about with the Crocs. Yeah, with his Crocs on, chunking down language. To be specific about like, she was a dick, she was a dick, she was a bitch, or whatever your phrase is. Like, what was she doing? Yeah, specific behavior. And like, have you seen someone do that specific behavior in a better way or solve that particular problem?

And I'm pretty sure she just wanted to stir the pot. Like, she would go around to different people's offices and whisper about other people. And like, we had somebody new that started and they let it slip to me She was like, she said, she said not to trust you. I've never had a problem with her. What is she talking about?

So what do you think she was getting out of that? So the specific behavior was saying shit about other people to— Yeah, maybe attention. Yeah. It's your guess.

I think that was— Yeah. Cool. So it just kind of— nobody kept it in check and she kind of called the shots.

So when you say kept in check, so again, chunking down language.

Yeah.

And she would come to someone and say, hi, I want to talk shit about Reid.

Yeah.

That person would not say, paper. I'm not willing.

I'm not, I'm not going to have this discussion.

Yeah.

And then the people in charge knew it was going on and they just said— well, I went to my boss about it once.

Yeah.

And he said, just let that roll off your back, it's no big deal. I'm like, it is a big deal because she's pitting everybody against each other.

Yeah.

And it— I mean, it, you know, it's not specific to say toxic, but that's what it came down to. It was like you could feel the tension. Everybody was miserable.

Well, I guess the reason I keep pushing for specificity is because if someone is watching this or someone's in a toxic whatever and they go to complain to their boss or whatever, and the boss says, "Say it's toxic." "It's toxic. She's a bitch. She's talking shit behind other people's backs." Which is better? You could say, "This person told this person this thing and it is affecting me in this particular way." And so therefore I'm able, and this is how you could potentially communicate more effectively to your bosses, is to say, I'm less able to make you money. Yeah, because this person said, yeah, I am unable to focus on my screen where money comes out that I put into your pocket because of buttons. This person said this, and this is also— and so there are 10 of me. Yeah, so if it is affecting me by 20% and I'm supposed to make you $100,000 and I have now making $20,000 less, You multiply that by 10, that's $200,000. I don't know what you're paying this woman, but she's costing the company in addition to her $100,000 a year salary, an extra $200,000. That is how you speak. And I give this to— That's how you actually talk to a boss.

Productively.

Productively speak. Because then they're like, oh, I can tell her, hey, you need to not do XYZ thing.

Yeah.

Or they can decide—

Or I'm gonna have to leave.

You're gonna have to leave. And they are ready to pay the price because you put it in language that they are speaking. 'Cause all they're doing is allocating resources. And their own time and energy as well as the money of the company.

Right.

So, yeah, that's pretty much the gist. The gist. Sure.

I lasted a year.

Okay.

I walked out. They talked me into coming back, gave me a raise. They really needed me. Okay. I came back. I was there like 3 days and was like, oh, I've made a terrible decision. Nothing is fixed. I got money, but nothing is fixed. Yeah. They made it clear they're not going to fix anything. So I ended up putting in my notice. Working my whole note, then at least instead of leaving. But yeah, that is not a thing I would normally do.

Sure. Yeah.

To walk out like that. But yeah, the moral there is most of the time, if you're that unhappy in a job, a couple dollars an hour is not going to fix it.

Which is— yeah. So if you are the boss—

on the thing that they throw money at it, but it doesn't fix it.

And that's funny because the company that I started has a great culture, the one in medical school. So we pay people a lot less than they can make elsewhere and they stick around for a lot longer than they should because of the culture. Because it's awesome. It literally is. The name is awesome. You know, we try— we're going to— we're going to pack a summer camp in a couple of weeks for a bunch of 28-year-olds.

Yeah.

And we're going to talk about how to help other people grow their business. This— we're going to do this, you know? And they're like, yeah, sure, I'll make $50,000 instead of $60,000 to do this.

Oh, I mean, they're in barley. Work. It's huge. Yeah, it has such an impact on your well-being.

Yeah, yeah. So you left?

So I left, and I was like, I don't think I want to be a CPA. Like, it like soured my whole experience, so I don't want to do that. And I actually did have like 2 years that I went and worked in a bank. I did credit analysis, so I analyzed tax returns. I still use the same stuff, but like, I helped decide if loans were good, pretty much. That was kind of nice because I didn't I have to do. It's probably the easiest job I've ever had. Yeah. But I started kind of missing the, I guess the, I can't think of the word. I've completely lost the word.

Camaraderie?

No.

Orderliness or something?

No, it's more like using my brain, I guess. It was so easy. I just plug numbers into software. Like this line from this tax return goes here and then spit out a report.

It sounds like this. Software probably does this job now.

Probably.

You just feed it in and it just knows how to read the papers.

Probably. Yeah. So it was like brain dead. Yeah. Which at first was nice because I'd been so slammed and then I was like, I'm bored.

Yeah.

And we didn't have enough to do. It was a smaller bank.

Okay.

So like, but you weren't allowed to talk to people. You weren't allowed to be on your phone. You weren't allowed to read. You weren't allowed to be on your computer.

So you just like—

So I shuffled papers on my desk and my boss would come in and be like, what are you doing? And I'm like, I'm like, nothing. I have nothing. You're in charge of the loans here, you know I have nothing. What? Please, can I do anything? I'm so bored.

Oh my God.

So that— I left there and went to my last recent job. So now we've walked through my entire history.

So now you sit here at 30-ish years old, almost 30.

How old was I? I was 34 when I—

oh, okay.

After all—

oh yeah, yeah.

So then I started working for a payroll company, and I'm like, I'm crazy because I'm going back into all this chaos.

Oh, that's gonna suck.

Yeah.

And it didn't suck at first.

And no, it was, it was kind of nice because I was like, oh, I'm busy. Like, busy. I'm using my brain. I'm challenged. I feel useful. Because at the bank too, I also had to work overtime.

But I don't have anything to do.

Like we had mandatory overtime. So like one week of mandatory overtime. Yeah. What was it doing? Just coverage in the branch.

Oh, just in case someone walked in and wanted a loan?

Yes.

Okay.

So like I would be sitting there 6 days one week, 5 days the next. Next, when nothing— or am I freaking awful?

Oh gosh, okay.

So then I went and worked for the small payroll company. When I started there, it was accounting and payroll all in one business. There was 10 of them, and I was hired to do like payroll taxes and help onboard new clients, like the software and stuff. And then it just kind of exploded. Like, they, they partnered with a couple of other CPA firms and took their payroll clients. Okay. So like those firms said, I only want to do accounting and taxes. We don't want to do payroll anymore. You take them. So I moved all of them over and it just kind of snowballed. So by the time I left, there was 30 people on the payroll side and like 20 on the accounting side.

50 people. Damn.

Which I wasn't in charge of anything on the accounting side. They split the two companies.

It went from 10 total to 50.

10 total to 50.

7 years. 7 years.

Yeah. Wow. Yeah. So I worked there for 7 years. I ended up after 2 years there, I got promoted to COO.

Yeah.

Which was wild because I had no management experience. Yeah, it's really like I kind of been in the role like I was kind of like leadership, like I would take the, take the leadership on things.

Sure.

Yeah. And people did look to me for answers.

But in terms of a title.

But I never even had a middle manager title. Yeah. Like, how about COO?

Yeah.

Are you sure? So I had a lot of imposter syndrome with that. Took some time to kind of grow into that. So I did that for 5 years and I thought I would do it forever like I did.

One of the things that's interesting that I get from an entrepreneurial perspective, you will face this, is like naming people matters. So like since I'm the entrepreneur, so I made up the Kentucky Entrepreneur Hall of Fame.

Okay.

We'll get inducted into this thing and I'm like, it's a fake prize, but all prizes were invented by somebody.

Yeah.

The Congressional Medal of Honor. Yeah. Is something we do.

Is this how you got people to talk to you that wouldn't talk to you?

Yes, exactly. So I was like, congratulations, you've got this award that I made up. Well, the Baseball Hall of Fame, the Grammys.

It's all made up.

It's all made up. Yeah. So, so I was like, so I felt some imposter syndrome about this award. But my point is that like, because I'd seen kind of behind the curtain, Grammys, Emmys, Oscars, like I'm less enthralled by that because I know, I see how subjective it is. And I'm like, what was I gonna say? Naming things. I was like, when I'm the CEO or the head of an organization, it's just me and my buddy and then like we get a few more friends. Like, yeah, sure, you're the president. Like, who cares? People do care. They do care.

They care a lot.

And because it actually matters a lot. So when I started the COVID testing company, like we had a few people and I was like, I think corporate stuff's dumb and I want everyone to wear the same outfit when they're out on the testing site. Like it matters to know like, who do I talk to about XYZ just by looking to see what color uniform they have on. And also it matters that like if someone says COO and they're trying to translate that in the corporate world to something else, that means something. Just like if you're a general versus a private versus an admiral, that means something.

Yeah.

So their ability to make, if they were to leave, to go make similar money somewhere else. Like if it said COO versus VP of Ops versus President of Ops versus manager versus middle manager versus assistant manager, and they were doing the same job.

Yeah.

Their ability to negotiate for pay is drastically—

Yeah, it makes a big difference.

So the feedback that I would give to your boss, especially— it's funny, you're like, well, I want to give him a COO role because that's— make him feel good. It's like, actually, if you slowly increase their title, they might actually feel more comfortable, have less imposter syndrome.

Yeah. And you don't got to pay him as much. Yeah.

Yeah, like they could have given you very small raises and title raises.

Yeah. And they were kind of like the, we don't do titles. They didn't even have a handbook. They didn't have policies. None of that. I did all of that.

So. And I would have felt the same exact way because I started with just, I mean, my first business was me selling golf balls by the side of the road in high school.

Yeah.

Like COO, we're making all this shit up.

What are you talking about?

It's like, no, it matters.

It does. Keep that.

All right, so you became COO in 2 years.

Yep. And so I did that for 5 years.

Yeah.

And I liked what I did. Yeah. Overall, like I grew a ton. I had a ton of opportunity. I don't I don't want to say anything negative about them, but basically when it came down to me leaving, like we started this, I had a really shitty day. Yeah. And for me, I had all of that responsibility. Like I would wake up but not thinking about things. And payroll is a lot. Like, because we were in 35 states. So you've got to have some knowledge of all of those states. Sick leave, like all of that. Our clients counted on us to know all of that. You're in sucked. So I'm like, if I'm gonna have like wake up at night in a panic about my job, I would rather be the one to make all the decisions about my job. Because where they had grown so fast, the owners had a really hard time like letting go.

Yeah.

So they were fine to let go to like for me to do the things that they knew I was good with, which was like all the day-to-day operations. But then like we would come down to a choice and I'd be like, I think we should do this. And they would not listen to that. And they would say, no, we're going to do this. And like, you haven't done this in 5 years, you know. Then the bad thing would happen that I said I was concerned would happen. And I was the one who had to fix it every time. So it wasn't like, I don't really blame them for it. Like I can see how that happened. You go from 10 to 50 people in a matter of 5-ish years. It would be hard to let go because it was a company they had started and they had done everything like production-wise.

So You, Rhi, if you are lucky, may have to face the same, the exact thing. Yeah. Hopefully.

Oh, I know it's going to be so hard.

Yeah. Well, and honestly, you can make the choice not to grow.

Yeah.

Which we talked about. We'll get into this here in a second.

Oh, and I don't know how much I want to grow.

Exactly.

I don't know what all I want, you know, because I was reading that book that you gave me, The E-Myth.

E-Myth Revisited.

Yeah. Yeah. And it got into like, you know, having like franchise way of looking at things. Yeah.

Yeah.

I don't know if I want to be that disconnected, but I understand the benefits, you know.

And you don't have— you have the choice, right? If you make a franchise model, you can always organize the closets or bake the pies if you want to.

Yeah.

But if you don't make the franchise model, you may not have a choice. You may have to bake the pies because you don't have the bandwidth. Yeah.

So I was like, oh, well, this is interesting. Yeah.

Well, the dynamic or the dichotomy or the riddle here is that You started your job because you didn't get to have the opportunity for the— your voice to be heard, to get to make the decisions, to have some control. And you didn't have the financial upside, but you had all the responsibility.

Yeah.

Which goes back to kind of what we talked about with men or potentially women.

Yeah. Like, if I'm going to lay awake at night worrying about this place, I want to be the one who makes all the money. And it wasn't that I was like terribly or anything like that. I don't want to say anything bad about that. Sure. Yeah. But I felt like it didn't necessarily match. And then it was usually the, it was the decision-making that was hard because I was kind of treated like, well, you know how this is. You know, you're the visionary. Here's all these ideas. And then here comes somebody to squash them and be like, well, we can't do that because of this, this, and this. I was that person. I was like, but we can't do that because they're not ready for this. These people can't possibly do that.

Yeah, yeah.

Like my boss would have the idea that like anybody could do anything. He was super optimistic. They can't do this. I promise. I've showed them 20 27 times and they are still lost. They can't do it. So like, you're either going to have to get better people in here.

Cost more.

Cost more or you're going to have to let go of that little dream. And so then I would get, I was always in the negative, I guess. Like, it was like, oh, you're a thief of joy. Like, this is the office. You're a thief of joy.

This is safe street. So cool about entrepreneurship and building a business. It is This is creative tension. Yeah, this is what it feels like. This is what like creative energy flow feels like is the tension or the struggle between— I had a phone call yesterday with someone that wants to buy this building potentially.

Oh, that's what you left me missing. Yeah, that's not on my list to talk to you about.

Well, yeah. So and it's a unique situation, but like I was going in a completely different direction. And so when he came in, so he was kind of the visionary in this case and I had to kind of sit It was very difficult emotionally because I've got a lot of momentum going. I'm like, all right, let me sit and be open and truly listen objectively to, does this fit? Does this not fit? Would I want to do this or not? So it's a very difficult thing. So anyway, what I was— where I was trying to go with that comment of like, you stepped away from your job so that you could have decision-making power. And in order for you to be successful in your new job, you have to give that decision-making power up all over again. In something that you have way more vested interest. Yeah, because mine, because it's yours. Because before you're like, hey, yeah, and like, you're making them, you're signing the checks, it's your fucking company, you have to make payroll whether we have customers or not. So like, I can relax a little bit, or you could make the argument, I can relax a little bit about not getting to make all the decisions. You said, fuck that, I'm too stressed, it's not worth it. Yeah, but now you are, it is yours. All of those things, you have to be all those things, part of that book, you have to be all of those things.

I don't know that. Or in the manager.

And you have to give up way more, like decision-making power than you had to give up in the other opportunity. So again, you got to decide how much decision-making power, but that by definition gives up your ability to grow, which is why I hired you. And I'm just like, hey, I want this awesome place. Here's a conversation. And if I was in there working with you on all those decisions, like I would be able to get all the other shit done that I've done.

Exactly.

So I'm giving it up to you.

Yeah.

You are worthy of that decision-making. Right. So good luck. Yeah.

It's a very hard thing to balance. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, back to the whole beginning of all.

Yeah, sure. So I had a bad day and things— so things weren't terrible. I mean, it was my house.

I was going to be there forever.

Like, I lost it. Literally one off.

Yeah.

Holy shit.

I love the people I worked with. I overall, like, I enjoyed what I did. Like, I was stressed. Yes, there were certain times in the year that were really stressful, but overall, like, I was happy. It wasn't like I was miserable. Okay. But I had this really bad day that just kind of spiraled, and it wasn't like it was a rash decision. That was in early January, and I left in May. And I had had those thoughts. I mean, who doesn't?

Who doesn't?

For somebody like, I'm gonna leave, I'm not gonna do it.

The grass is greener. Like, people can see other lawns. Yeah. Like, they've got Instagram or whatever.

So I'd had those thoughts before, like maybe I'll leave. No, I won't. Like, I've got it good here. Like, I love— like, I do miss the people I worked with a lot. Yeah. So, um, I did love them. I don't want to get emotional about them. I cried when I told them I was leaving. Oh, but yeah, they cried too. So I think we're— I mean, we were close, and some of those, they had been there the whole time I'd been there, so they had been through all of the growth, and it's almost like a trauma bond. Yeah, bro, that—

oh, of course.

Yeah, yeah. Like, we hired somebody new. And she's like, it was the first year in. And she goes, you weren't— you weren't kidding. You weren't kidding. I feel like I've done a tour of duty with you. Oh yeah, we told you, yeah, it sucks. Yeah. So yeah, I mean, it was a hard decision, but like, yeah, my husband was like, what would you do? Okay, what would I do?

Here we go.

I had never really—

you just knew this job sometimes sucks.

Yeah. And I never thought like, what would I do if I could anything. And I'd never been in a financial position to even think, you know, and we were in a position that we could at least look at things and be like, could we do— like, could we get by with only one steady guaranteed income? Could we do that? So we did that, and we're like, yeah, we actually could.

Did the math.

Yeah, yeah, we sat down and about 4 times mathed it the hell out. Yeah, I had like a budget spreadsheet, and then I would wake up in the middle of the night and I'm I'm like, we gotta look at that again. He's like, oh my God, we've looked at it so many times. But I didn't have any plans necessarily at that point. I was just like, I want to know I can do this. So like, we had some bills that we were paying down, like we were throwing like kind of like the Dave Ramsey, like everything at this to get it paid off just to have one last month.

Yeah, yeah.

Um, so that was in January. That week I came up with the business name. Okay, with the logo. Okay, started a social media page.

This is in January.

January.

Okay, great.

Within like 3 days of my bad day, like, it was like, oh wow, okay, yes. Came up with like the color scheme. I've always loved pink and I've always worked in male-dominated fields. Oh yeah, you're in pink.

You told me so.

I can have pink. It doesn't make me any less smart or anything. Yeah, yeah, I can like pink, it's fine. Yeah, so, uh, that was in January. We were taking those steps just in case, but I had no idea what was going to open.

So did you know even what you wanted to do? You're like, I guess, okay, I wanted to do the professional organizing. So when did that— where did that come from? Like, how did that happen?

Came up like within a day of my husband saying, what would you do? And I'm like, oh my God, this is like a light bulb. I have always loved this. I got to do it for people for free.

Yeah, yeah.

I love organizing things. I love putting things how they go.

Yeah, yeah.

Like, I've always enjoyed that. I'm like, is that even viable?

Is that a thing?

Is that a thing?

People give money for that?

Is that a thing?

Yeah, yeah. Oh my It's a thing. People—

there's actually like a membership.

I saw you've got it on your, on your, um, your signature of just like, I'm a professional organizer member association.

Like certain courses and pass them, and then once you have a certain amount of hours, you can take an exam and actually be a CPO, which is a Certified Professional Organizer.

Oh wow, okay. Talk about something people made up. Gosh, I wish I would have been the entrepreneur that made that shit up.

Yeah, yeah. And you gotta pay.

Of course you gotta pay. You got a business model.

Yeah. So I'm like, oh, this is —people do this. This is a real thing.

People do it every day.

And it was all a financial thing. Like, could we do this? Can't we do this? And we started looking and I'm like, we can. And I'm, you know, I'm still not sold on leaving my job.

Oh, that's right. You're still there.

Yeah, I was still there. So we just started kind of part-time, like, working towards it.

Like, so what did that look like? Part-time working towards it? What were some of your first steps? Like, your first steps were, I'm going to come up with the name, the logo, the colors, which is like all the fun part and none of the actual work. None of the actual work. Yeah. Which is very common. But Yeah, yeah.

You know who I am. And of course you have this moment where you're like, oh my God, everybody's going to be like, wow, this exists.

I don't give a shit. No, they couldn't overemphasize how many people do not care, how little people care.

Yeah. So doing things for free for people. I would take before and after pictures of friends, family, neighbors. Like, hey, can I come to your pantry? I won't judge. Let me take pictures. Yeah, yeah. Let me take pictures. Write me a review. Basically, that's all I'm asking.

Just— and that's how you started? Yes. Oh, that's great.

And then my very first paid job, she actually saw me— like, the county puts out like a monthly new businesses for Laurel County. And I thought you had to turn yourself in, but apparently they just go looking for like new pages. Oh wow. Because I hadn't formed an LLC or anything, and suddenly I'm on this video. And I thought my husband did it.

I said, did you turn— did you try that?

No, I thought you did. I'm like, no, I wouldn't have done it yet. I'm not ready.

I said, I don't have my shit together.

I would have waited a few months before I did that. I got a call the next day, so somebody saw it and that was my very first paid job. She didn't know that. She still doesn't know that.

Yeah, I guess she won't. She might now.

Yeah, I doubt she will. Just one guess.

You don't think so? No.

Okay. No. So that was— I did her kitchen and like the way I felt doing that, like I came home and my husband was like, I've never seen you so excited about anything you've done. In 14 years. Like, this is what you need to do. Wow. Like, I couldn't shut up. Like, I did this and I did this, and she had this expired food, and I helped her come up with a system. And then I was like making documents, like how to maintain this stuff, just to help. Oh yeah, like I did make quite a bit of that stuff.

Yeah, SOPs. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So like, I was so energized by it that I was like, I think I'm meant to do this.

This is the thing I'm supposed to do.

Yeah. But that was in February. Okay. So my first paid job. And then I had a couple other people reach out, like small jobs. And then you happened.

Yeah. So what, before you met me, what was your like, what did you think your plan was going to be to grow this business?

Very, very, very slow. Like what my plan or what my need was. I was like, if I do like 2 one-day jobs a month, I will be— I'll have enough money that we can pay our bills. Like, obviously I want to do more. Sure. Yeah. Yeah.

That's what it would be. Jobs would be what, like 2 8-hour jobs.

So 16 hours a month.

16 hours, which at $7.50 would have been what? Alexa, what's $7.35 times 16? $1,000-ish. $1,000. Okay. Yeah. Great.

$1,200. That was how much money we needed in addition to his income. So I was like, wow, a lot less than what I was making. You know, I'm like, but I need to make $1,000 a month.

Well, yeah, okay, wow, that's great.

So you're making some spending money, like, I mean, because we have like a very detailed— I bet you did. Crazy detail. Yeah, it's pretty deep. Oh, it has multiple tabs.

Um, yeah, it's amazing. So, so you said, all right, $1,200. Yeah, 2 days before I— like, when I quit, that's what I have to have.

That's what I have to have.

And when you met me, how many jobs had you done at that time? 3 or 4, maybe 5? 3. 3. Okay. All one-day jobs. Yeah. Okay.

One was a 2-day, but yeah.

So when you met me, you were like, I'm nowhere near where I need to be. And I think you're ready to quit your job. No. Because you're like, I don't have 2 months. I don't have these.

I don't know how. I'm panicking. And my husband, of course, David's like, you could work DoorDash and make that. Like, there's things you can do if it doesn't take off. And I'm like, but I'm not comfortable being that. I don't want to be poor. I don't want to be like, oh God, we don't have anything. I've done that. I did that.

I lived in a shack. Oh yeah. Yeah. So you were— oh, when you quit, it was hard. Or before you met me. Just thinking about it was scary. This is another thing.

Like, I don't want to be that insecure again about money. Great.

This is another point. Some other women might be looking at you, men, people being like, I'm not as brave as she is, or as big of a risk taker. And you are the most conservative motherfucker. Like, and now, like, at this stage in your life, you took other risks at earlier stages of your life, but like, you're like, I am extremely risk averse.

Worse.

And so, um, that's just a helpful thing to point out. So you were like, I will quit my job when I have a steady stream of 2 things lined up. How were you planning on getting those things?

I had really just started like actually trying to market, so I was going to start going out just talking to people, basically knocking on doors, basically knocking on doors, mostly going to businesses, leaving cards, just talking, letting them know I existed.

Yeah, yeah, pretty much let people know about your stuff.

'Cause nobody even knew I was there. Of course. Yeah. It's brand new. And there are no other professional organizers in that county.

I'm sure within 10 counties surrounding, there are no professional organizers. No, there isn't. Here. Relaxing. Wow. We're an hour away, aren't we? Yeah. Yeah. That's definitely close. Yeah. Yeah. Hell, like you could go to, you could go 45 minutes in every direction and not be one person that's gonna organize your garage.

Although I didn't see one pop up the other day. Oh, you got a dead? Buy, sell, trade. Oh, okay. I'm like, mm-hmm. You got, yeah. It's the same font that I'm using. I'm like. Which is exactly the font you used—

No, I didn't copy their font, I just copied their—

everything else. Yeah, that's great. So yeah, okay, cool.

Um, so actually that's another helpful thing. So like, how'd you come up with your pricing?

Looking at other people's products. Exactly.

And just saying, I want to be competitive in the same market, which is, uh, there's a pricing— so, and it's being AI. Okay, so Hormozy is coming out with a money models book, and it's— and it's part of that book is going to be about how do you price. Because what happens is people do exactly what you just did. They're like, what do I charge for this? They're like, well, I'm going to see what everyone else charges and I'm going to charge a little bit less for and give a little bit more. Yeah. And then they're— then your competitor charges a little bit less, give a little bit more until you guys have both priced each other out of the market. So one of the things that we didn't really get into, actually started to get to with your subscription thing, which we'll start talking about here in a second, is one of the ideas that I probably gave you because I'm so smart. You did. Yeah. Is how to avoid that trap of everyone, a whole bunch of people that don't know what the fuck they're doing, competing against each other, their own shitty business models to get rid of any amount of margin that they had. Yeah. So that catches us up. So you get a call from me, you got your pricing model from competitors. Yeah. You got your leads from by accident, essentially. By accident. Okay, great. You don't know that word of mouth. A little bit. Yes. You've done 3 jobs at the time you got me, and then you got an email from me.

Yes. So you filled out the form. I think Andrea filled it out. Okay. Filled out a form of like our online lead form. We have been working on the website. That was some of the stuff we were working on the website. We were running Google Ads. Sure. Yeah. But okay. Trying to get the reviews. We ran a couple of Facebook ads. Those seem to be useless though. So planning on joining the chain, like planning on doing all these little things and just doing some networking just to kind of get the word out. And, you know, I wasn't looking to be full-time doing this. So we can make this work, you know, but we weren't there yet. So then you happened and you reached out and we had a call and you were late. And I was like, well, that figures because he's a doctor.

Oh, I looked you up. Oh, you know, I didn't know.

I had to make sure you weren't, you know, some crazy psychopath. Yeah. Like, well, he's a doctor. It's probably—

I was late on a phone call.

Was that what it was? Yes.

Like an hour late. Oh, really? Holy shit.

Okay. This has to be a Zoom. And you didn't show up. So I texted you and told you never mind. Basically, I was like, screw this.

Oh, really? Here again? Yeah. Okay. And was my—

You called me right after you were in some meeting that ran over. Oh, okay. So you called me and I only had a few minutes. Okay. And so we talked and you wanted me to come in and do like 4 hours to like a— you wanted me to come and a couple other people to come and see who you like the most. Yeah, yeah.

And pieces of the building that I was going to like block off. Yeah.

And then like the next day, a couple days later, you were like, I think we're just gonna dive in with you. Because obviously it's because I'm so amazing. And actually, nobody else answered or had availability.

That was shitty negotiating on my part. I should not have told you. Like, the other people didn't even show up.

That's how low the bar is. You just tell me till later. Oh, okay, good. Yeah, tell me till after I'd already came and worked. And you're like, oh, you're actually really good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, and you just told me you were gonna dive in with me. And so like, we I was like, is this because I'm like a new business and he's all passionate about it? Oh yes. You know, like he's just excited to help me. Or was this just off of a phone call though?

Like all we'd done was a phone call.

We had a FaceTime. Yeah. Okay. But I didn't tell you like how new I was.

Okay. I probably did. Yeah.

Yeah. I think you were getting pretty pumped.

I collect entrepreneurs like straight on. Yeah. Like, woo! Yeah, I was happy. Yeah.

So I was like, maybe that's why. Yeah. But then later I found out it was the other. Don't worry about that. But whatever. That's true. Take whatever you can get. Yeah. So I did the first day. And then you asked me to come back. Actually, I think you said, when can you leave your job?

Yeah, that's totally right.

To book you through the month of May. May. The end of April. So I was like, oh, I have a choice to make. Like, I have to stop right now because I can't do both. Yeah. You know?

Yeah.

So I actually put in my notice that next week. So you kind of forced my hand.

Yeah.

And it gave me the runway. Like, I was banking on $1,000 a month. And so I was able to make more and we've just been hoarding that basically. Like, what if I don't get anything for a few months?

Yeah.

I've been putting it in a business bank account and, you know, using it to like advertising, like we're running some ads and stuff, like targeted ads online. What else have we done? Did some flyers, you know, various little things. But like, if I don't have anything for several months now, I'm okay. Like I can keep working on it. So you made that happen.

Thank you. So let me clarify something. If you don't have anything for several months, I am going to not make payroll in about 45 days.

Okay. Yeah, but it's just me.

Well, I understand that. I'm just, again, like, yeah, so, and I'm not saying that I'm right or that you're wrong, but the, there can be a perception of the swashbuckling entrepreneur that it takes a bunch of risks. Elon Musk was like Tesla has been weeks, single-digit weeks away from bankruptcy. It's a bajillion-dollar company. I said on multiple occasions. Yeah. So like, I'm not saying that that's right, but he's the most famous entrepreneur on the planet right now. And people are like, well, I don't want to be weeks away from not making payroll. So I guess I can't be or shouldn't be or am not an entrepreneur. And you're like, bro, I could get zero jobs for 5 months.

Yeah.

And I would be fine. And be fine.

I mean, I would be panicking internally.

You'd be panicking, but I would pay my bills. Yes, that would be, you know, emotional. Yeah. Math would still be math for those 5 or 6 months. Yes.

Yeah, that's great. So that really, I mean, you hiring me gave me that freedom to make that choice, which is still not an easy choice. Like, it was hard for me to make that choice because it was like an abstract idea. Like, and then it was like, oh shit, I have to actually, like, I need to do this because you booked me. Like, I'm like, yeah, okay, in 2 weeks I'm one day I will start.

Yeah.

And I'm like, I have to— like, my hand was kind of forced. Yeah. Which was good. That was good for me because I don't know how long that would have taken me to actually feel comfortable.

And it's— I could kind of sense that, like, so this is— you were an investment, right? I gave you money. I want to get value in return. And so, like, it was a pretty brief amount of time that, like— and I want to get back to our first conversations, but I said, here's a clause It, make it look nice. I gave you on purpose very little direction and I said, let me know if you have questions. And I left you alone for however many hours. Yeah. And I came back and it was like, holy shit. So I was raised by the other person I've met that's as organized as you, which is my mother. And so I know what excellence looks like in that department. Yeah. And I was like, oh, this is, this is what excellence looks like. And so I was like, you had paid down the risk. And so I was like, I know that I'm going to get value, like I'm going to get my money's worth. So now it's just like, great, how good of a deal can I get? Yeah. And that's where you start negotiating terms. Yeah. Yeah.

And that's where you get into all of the rest of your questions. Exactly. So things did you do? Like, yeah, gave me like all kinds of ideas that, yeah, to me were not even on my radar. Yeah.

So what do you remember from that first conversation? Because I literally was like the first or second time you were here, I sat you down and I just like for like an hour, I just told you, like, I drove home like the I gave her like 3 books. I just handed them to her.

Give me 5. 5? Yeah, I haven't even read them all yet. Of course you haven't read 5 books. Yeah, 5 books.

What the hell? I just couldn't help myself.

Yeah, read like 3 of them.

That's amazing. That's— yeah, but I drove home like this.

I was like rapid blinking the whole way. I'm like, I'm not ready for any of this. What is he talking about? This dude's crazy. I think I actually called that. I was like, he is crazy.

He's fucking crazy.

No. So good. So yeah, I mean, like, you thought of all kinds of things as a business person, as someone who does this that, you know, I knew were things, but like, they were, you know, like hundreds of years away.

Yeah. I hadn't even considered it. Not your fourth customer.

You're like, you need to hire somebody. And I'm like, I barely have anything. Yeah. And I haven't actually hired somebody like full-time employee. Yeah. But I have done some contract labor. I've done some interviews. Because it's like you mentioned, oh, well, you hire them and you pay them less than you charge for their labor. And I'm like, holy shit, that is actually what every employer in the world does. That's how companies make money. Yeah, yeah. Plus you eventually can get to where you don't have to be the one doing it. And I'm still not 100% sure how big I want to be. Yeah, yeah. Um, but like, it put all those ideas that weren't even weren't even on the periphery. Yeah, peripheral vision. They were not even there. Yeah, you kind of made me think of those. You mentioned hiring.

So yeah, so one of them was like, you need to hire people. Yes. Do you remember why I said you need to hire people like now? Uh, supply and demand. Yeah, so we were about that.

Like you said that I would basically have the demand, but I would not have enough people to do it because it's just me.

Well, and also it's harder in your particular industry. I can knock on— I can walk around the block and be like, do you have some shit? Do you have some shit that you want to not look like shit? And they'd be like, yeah, yeah, how much are you charging? It's just a matter of pricing, right? Like, almost everybody would say that. The difficult part is like, do you want to clean up some shit all day? And not just like, not just like put garbage in the bag, but like organize things and make it beautiful. Yeah, it's a lot harder to find another one of you than it is to find someone that wants your services.

And that is going to be the biggest struggle because like you can hire people and I I have the help and I can say, go do this. Yeah. And like, the people that I've had help, but like, hey, assemble that stuff. I'm like, that was— yeah, yeah, I hate assembling shelves. Please assemble the shelves and fold these towels. Yeah, hold them like this. Yeah. But like, to think like me and stuff, that's where you get into the having to let go. And I'm like, that's kind of scary, like, to, to have my name on something and let people do that. Yeah. I know that eventually I will get there. Probably. Yeah, probably. Unless I decide not to.

You don't have to. You know, if you keep building up your demands, you can just charge more and more and more. Yeah. That's— that limits your demand so that you just work your 2 days a month or whatever.

But I mean, honestly, you scared the shit out of me with that because I was like, I'm not even thinking about this. And I talked to David about it forever and he's like, I think, I think that's a good idea. And I'm like, I know, but like, I'm scared. I know.

Tell me about you being afraid. That's really good. Tell me about this emotion, what was going on.

I guess it's back to the imposter syndrome thing. Like, I can't do that.

I can't—

somebody— I can't— I'm not ready for any of that. This is all brand new. I can't do any of that. That's pretty much where my my brain was. Okay. When I left that day. Yeah. So yeah, it was you.

So what was the first thing that you remember from that conversation? Yes. I know you gave a stack of books and you were like stunned or whatever. Yeah. It was like, I should hire people.

Yeah. Okay. And then you talked about, we talked about terms and you wanted to pay me upfront at a discounted rate, which was obviously a win-win because I had no cash flow and that saved you money in the long run and you had the cash to do it. Yeah. So that gave me a lot of security in knowing I've got this money already. Like, obviously I owe you labor for it, but I've got this. And yeah, if I don't get anything else for a while, I have this lined up. So yeah, that really helped a lot.

So employers' terms. So if you're thinking about starting a business, like having the ability to pull cash forward is not just good for stress levels.

Yes.

You also could use that cash then to put back into the business or to hire— to hire those employees. Yeah. So I was like, yeah, take— like, charge me less, I'll give you an upfront amount of money, and then spend that money on advertising for your employees. And actually, I then was like— and also, you were charging $75 an hour, I got you down to $50 an hour, and I said, go find some employees, pay them $25 an hour, charge me $35. Yeah. So you actually even made money on the employees. Made money, yeah. Yeah, like you didn't actually have to go buy a ton of stuff. Right.

Yeah. Yeah. And that's what I did. I had food contracts laid around. I haven't hired anybody full-time yet. So that worked out. Are they still around?

Like, what did you learn from doing that so early? Because that was a thing you would not have done. No. And if someone's watching this, they're like, oh, I'm 5 minutes in, I can't hire someone. Yeah. And you're like, well, hey, maybe your next customer, give them a discount for pulling cash forward. If you want to, you actually didn't even need to do that. But give them— if that makes you comfortable, spend some money on Indeed advertising the position, interview someone. Um, what did you learn through getting— and you had 2 people come work for you. How many interviews did you do?

Well, so one of them I already knew, so she didn't really count. I didn't have to interview her. But she—

but she— has she ever worked for you? No. Great. Well, what did you learn? You know, what did you What did you learn?

Um, the biggest thing I learned was how much more you can get done with two people. Okay. And that, like, yes, I'm good at this, like, because I had already done that. I'd done management. That obviously helped a lot, that I ran the operations of a business and I had managed multiple people. So it was like, I can do this. I can see if you're starting a business and you've never done that, that's scary.

Well, okay, so you were still afraid to do it, which is good. Again, to make people feel less alone, less like, I'm the only one. It's like, you were already a COO, you'd already managed a whole bunch of people. And it's like, you should manage one person for the company.

Like, I can't do that. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Cool. Because it's different because it's my company. Whatever. Yeah, whatever.

Same. You can't. Yeah. Yeah. So what did you learn from, from that experience, from hiring your friend? Yeah. And you had one other person that was— that I didn't know at all.

Okay, great. Yeah.

So you only interviewed one person and that's the person that you gave the shot to. And then she— how did that go?

I talked to multiple people. She was the only one I followed through and did like a video So tell me, tell me what you learned in all of that. Again, I mean, learning that you can get a lot more done and that like, yes, if I want to grow a lot, this is going to have to be a thing and I'm going to have to teach them what I do.

Like how you think and stuff like that.

And then also there's that little part of you like, I don't want to, I don't want to do that. I don't want to teach you everything I know. You know what I mean?

Like, why don't you? Like you just don't enjoy the process of teaching? No.

Like I just don't want to give that up. Up. Okay, wait, to be mean?

You want to feel special, I guess?

Maybe. I don't know.

You worried that they were going to compete if they were going to go start their own thing?

I think it was more— it's more of like worrying about the risk. Like, what if they suck? Like, what if I'm not around, they don't show up, or they suck, and I'm still going to be responsible? Which you are as a business owner. You're always responsible.

So, and so when you say you don't want to teach, your issue is not I don't want to teach. You don't mind the actual act? I don't mind the actual act. You're like, I don't like the idea of relying on other people, period.

That's great. That's, that's a long-held trauma sort of thing there. Sure. I hate relying on others. Yeah. Yeah. Uh-huh. So that is probably my biggest struggle is like, how much do I want to grow? Do I want to rely on other people? Because I told you initially, you made fun of me because I made decent money at my job. You're like, what else do you want? And I'm like, at first I'm like, well, I want to make this much money. And then the more I thought about it, I'm like, it's not about money. I wanted freedom. Freedom. I wanted to be like, you know what, it's a nice sunny day, I'm gonna go lay on a float in the pool because I don't have a client meeting today. And I couldn't do that when I was chained to a desk 8 to 5. Yeah, Friday and then weekends too sometimes. Take— I was basically always on call. Like I would get calls at 9 o'clock, there was an emergency, you know. Yeah, yeah. And then I would be like, I can't sleep, or you know, whatever. So I wanted freedom. That was the biggest thing I wanted. So trying to come up with like, how much do I want to grow versus freedom is where I'm at right now. Yeah. So I have a few jobs lined up. Yeah. Told you earlier. Yeah, yeah. I think you still have more things you want to do.

I have a monster distillery for you to clean up, you know, in a couple months when it's cool enough or whatever.

Yeah, yeah. So we have that on like, you know, I feel confident about short term. I'm just like, eventually you're going to run out of things I'm like, I don't get any jobs. Yeah, yeah. But I am getting jobs, so I've got to chill. Yeah, I have like my own anxiety. So like there are 4 ways to get—

Elliot, right? Count the what? Yeah, what are the 4 ways? So this is Hormozy here. This is Mr. Hormozy himself. Is this the more and— Yeah, do you know what the core 4? Like what are the 4 ways you can get leads? I'm sure I told you the first day.

Oh wait, I don't know if I do.

How do you get leads? How did you get your first lead?

Lead? That video from what? Advertising.

Okay, uh, we're gonna skip that one. Give me another, give me another one. Yeah, Facebook. Facebook. Okay, social media. So that is— and what did you do with Facebook? Did you run an ad on Facebook or you shared something with your friends?

I shared some, like, I started a business page and shared it, and then it grew, and I ran an ad. I did a giveaway. So like, I did a giveaway so that people would share it.

You're doing all kinds of stuff, girl. Yeah, I've done a lot of stuff.

Like, I've forgotten some things I've done, actually, now Talk about it. Well, let's just talk about— you made any content? I'm like, actually, yeah, I am. Yeah.

Okay, so we'll make some content here in a second. So let's just think about your first, um, your first lead. Uh, and so the quadrants here, they call this the Core Four, or he calls this the Core Four, and this is, uh, uh, one-on-one and one-to-many, anything more than one. 1. And then this is know you and stranger. Okay, so let's go ahead and map your, um, we'll map your leads so far. So, um, you— I'm a stranger. Yeah. And you did not reach out to me individually. You did not cold call me. So this was a website Yep. That I just came across through Google search. Yeah, yeah. So this is Luke.

And I was actually very surprised because I was like, he's in Lexington. I don't even know why I'm showing up for him. I'm far away, but okay, I'll drive to Lexington.

So this is stuff that you do. So this is, this is all you, uh, free. And then free, you can pay others to do the exact same thing. So others, you call these potentially affiliates or, yeah, we'll just call, say others then. This is a shitty marker. Yeah, it's pretty bad. Yeah. So one-to-one, one-to-many, known, cold. So we'll talk about this relationship here in a second, but let's just map what you've already got. This is me. Many. Uh, what was the other one? Uh, it was your, your first one was a stranger. A stranger. Yeah. So you did not know them. Um, and it was started through a, uh, a video. A video. Okay. So this is actually someone else. Yeah. Reached out to someone that they, that was on their mailing list.

Maybe they share it like on, it was Facebook too. Okay.

They share it on Facebook. So they did one-to-many, and let's just say it was followers of their page. So that's people that have opted in for a relationship.

That's right. Yeah.

So that's known. So this is, what was that?

Just call her Jay. Jay. All right.

This is client one. All right, cool. So this is that, that, that the relationship between an employee and an affiliate is kind of like between an employee and a contractor. Okay. Yeah. There's a different business model happening here because like, yeah, there's a different business model, but let's talk about your, your, the two other ones you had before me.

Be? I remember one was known. It was somebody that I went to school with. She was like, I need help.

Yeah, okay. And then how did she find out? Facebook. Facebook, okay. And she followed you on Facebook, I guess. So that's— so they know you. It's one-to-many. So this is number 2. Who does number 2 work for?

I don't remember who the other one was now. Yeah, did I only have— I might have only had 2.

So I might have been your third. I think you might have been.

Yeah, yeah, cuz I did a bunch of free jobs. That was my only two paid jobs. Yeah. Okay. Well, I wanted you to think I was a lot busier.

I know, I knew you're full shit. That's fine.

Yeah, that's fine. Yeah. So that was it.

Okay, great. So there's, there's your, there's your map. Yeah.

So since then I've had—

and so tell me about the ones, the other ones that have come in. So I'm number 3. So this is— I'm gonna just call this number 1. 1, 2. Yeah, yeah. Number 1, uh, number 3. Okay, let's see.

One-to-many is like any social media.

Yeah. So just tell me, like, just don't, don't try to put it in this. Just talk to me about it and then I'll do this.

Okay. So I had one that was somebody that I knew. It was someone in their family that needed help and they referred them. Okay, great. So I did not seek them out or anything like that, but yeah, they helped me.

So, so like someone that was just like connected to— Yeah, affiliate. Sorry. Somehow know them, you know. And actually the way you get affiliates these others. So you— so this is actually how it worked. Uh, you told them, right? Told who? The person that got you number 4. Yeah. Okay, so yeah, they knew number 4. Number 4 was actually— was one of the others. And what they used was one-to-one of someone that they knew. They could have been like, oh, I'm gonna make 5 phone calls for you. That's really rare that that would happen. Yeah, they could have shared it with their their list of friends on their Facebook page. Like, my friend is doing whatever.

And I do have people that have done that. I don't know if I've actually gotten a paid job out of it yet, but cool, cool.

All right, what's your—

what's number 5? Uh, well, I did a giveaway that wasn't actually paid because it was a giveaway, but it was.

Okay, so how did you— how did you—

I shared it on Facebook. Like, I did like a like my page, follow my page, share this, and then I'll draw a name, basically.

So I guess it was shared with your followers. Did the people that Did they already know who you were or not?

No, this was a stranger.

Okay, so since the people that follow the page. Yeah. So that is one-to-many. Yep. And stranger.

Yeah, 'cause they had to share it. Like my followers had to share it. So then I had all kinds of people that I didn't know who were like, oh, I wanna get in on this.

Oh, so they got in on the giveaway. Yeah, yeah. Okay, great. So actually—

I gained like 100 followers from that.

Okay, so this is number 5. So this is another affiliate thing then. So it was someone that followed a person that joined your giveaway. Yeah. Okay, great. So this is number 5. This is cool how this maps. Yeah. So it was a one-to-many stranger that followed your page, then shared it with one-to-many of people that knew her. Yeah. With their own friends. And that's how you actually got your lead.

And I have another one right now that's the exact same thing. Same thing.

Okay, great. So like number 5 and 6. 5 and 6. Yeah. Okay.

5 and 6. So I think I told you I partnered with a realtor. Her. Okay. And she is like, she did a giveaway. So like she paid me and then she gave away the service. Okay. And then to like, they had to follow her page and she's like, oh, these are— I reached out to her. I was like, these are good complimentary things.

So you knew, you knew the realtor? I knew the realtor. Okay, good. So let's, let's call this 7. Okay. This is so great to take a model like this. All right. Because then what you can do if you have it mapped out in this way, and you understand like what's going on, you can be like, okay, you can think, where did I spend time and money and where did I get the biggest return?

Where did it come from?

You could also just make a list, I guess. But having this structure makes it a little bit more clear about what's going on. So number 7 was you knew a person and— She did a giveaway. And then she did a giveaway to who?

All of her followers.

But they were her followers?

They were her followers. Yes. Okay. So she— one-to-many known.

Yeah. Okay. 7. Okay. And then what did she do? So this is an interesting thing that, that, that I've never seen anyone else do. What did she do? She gave this away to her followers.

Her followers. Yeah. Her following, like for sharing her page to their followers.

Okay, great. So then, so this is great. This is what network effects actually look like. This is so cool that we're mapping this out. I wish I had a little more space. Yeah. Well, we'll just, a lot more, but we'll just do this. We'll just say, okay, she said to everyone that she knew, hey, tell people that you know that follow your page to follow mine. So then it did this. Yeah. And she got them in this— in this star, she had her own affiliates of affiliates of affiliates. Yeah. That then went to here, then all the way back to you.

And so that's how I'm booked with one of those people that is like 3 layers. I don't even know.

That's amazing. I don't know her. Yes, we're 7 degrees of separation. Yeah.

Of Kim Mickeywise. And then I haven't even done it yet. Like, I'm booked for the end of month. And she's like, I think I'm probably going to want you to do other things. I think based on like, I've done a lot of that. The realtor person? No, the realtor person, but the connection of the connection, connection of the connection. Because like, I think she was probably impressed with like the questions I asked, because she's like, here's my room, and I'm embar— everybody's embarrassed. That's the thing. Like, you get a lot of people, especially when it's their home, they're like, I don't want you to look at it. And I'm like, this is what I do. Yeah. Yeah, and so it took like 5 messages before she would send me pictures and schedule. I think she was like, oh God, I've made a mistake, you know, this is free. So this is great, this is great.

So, so now what you're talking about— so you haven't done any like— oh yeah, you've done a little bit of like one-to-many with strangers. What you're talking about now, as you get to know your avatar, which is overwhelmed moms, or apparently like whatever the heck you call me, like busy entrepreneurs, um, it's so cool because you're I'm not organized. Like, one of the barriers, one of your sales objections, and the problems with what you do is the shame around your problem. So there are 4 levels of, uh, marketing. There's like, uh, and actually maybe there's 5. One of them is like, uh, uh, problem unaware to problem aware. Okay, so this problem they don't know, it's a problem they do know. Okay, then there is, uh, problem aware, but they don't know a solution. They're just like, I've got cancer, or whatever it is, uh, to then solution aware. Okay, aware. Okay, then there is your solution, because it's like, oh, there is cures for cancer. Yeah. Okay, re-solution. And then there is— so like, I can know about your solution should, but then I still have to buy from you. So there are lots of reasons that I might not buy from you, and you need to know this. This is where the— this is marketing, uh, re— uh, uh, barriers, I guess you call this.

And, and so when I was written blogs about that and stuff, about what?

About being a barrister?

Google about the barriers and about how, like, I just shared a thing, like, basically like, if you need help, like, no judgment, no shame. Yeah, because that is the biggest barrier, is shame. Past money. I mean, if they don't have the money for it— yeah, yeah, they don't have the money for it. Yeah. But people are like, I want you to come in and do this, but I don't want you to look at it.

So this is an interesting—

I have to look at it.

This is so interesting. Like, this would happen in— with, um, I remember as a physician, some guy had something wrong with his butthole, and so like I had to like really look at his anus, and like I, I just wasn't very thoughtful. Like, I I was like, he didn't have any hair. I was like, what's going on with like, are you okay? And he's like, no, I shaved my ass. And I'm just thinking about, wow, that's such a sensitive— you're the most vulnerable you can be. Yeah. Um, and again, I don't know why I wouldn't want to be a doctor. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Um, and so like, in the same way, like women, we talked about roles, like take care of the house. Yeah, I can't fulfill my basic fucking womanly duties, you know, if that's how think. Yeah.

And so, uh, yeah, so your marketing campaigns, like, which there's a lot of like, I'm helpful, I care, I care about people, I understand, like, hey, I'm a professional organizer and stuff still gets out of the way from me. Like, oh, I can't keep up with this.

But that's a big, um, like, so for, for some people, what, what I was going to say here was like the normal progression of the, the levels of marketing or whatever it's called is I didn't even know that I had a problem. So then you have to make them aware of the problem. You don't have that. Yeah, I didn't know that there was a solution. You have to make them aware that there are solutions. People probably know that like there are organizing racks. They might not even know that, but like they might not even know that professional organizers exist. So you have to be like, professional organizers are a solution. Then they've got to get to your particular solution. And then the next step here normally is, do they trust you? Yeah, and normally the trust is like, can you actually deliver on what you say you're going to do.

There's a lot more to it.

For you, yes, there's shame, judgment, are my neighbors gonna know, all that other stuff.

That is like, I'll take pictures, that's what another one, and I'm like, yeah, if you don't want me to, yes, but like, I'm not going to put your name on it, you know. Exactly. They're their names because people do struggle with it.

Yes, yes. And the same thing, it makes me think of, uh, plastic surgery. Like, I've been to some spas and got some Botox or whatever, and like, as I've been there, they're like, oh, we do titties. I'm like, oh Oh, look at some titties. And it's like, of course no woman wants to like— they don't share. Or I mean, less so breasts. It is like facial stuff. Like they will block out their eyes because women don't want to show that.

They got a facelift.

Face lift, Botox are all the things that I'm going in to get myself. Yeah. So I never really thought— and I bet you if you ask ChatGPT like, hey, how do I work around this? Yeah, it really helps.

But I have done a lot of marketing on that. Good. This is no judgment. Like, yeah, all the different things besides just me coming in. When you're talking about going in and do it individual's home, like I just shared something the other day. You asked me about content. I'm like, I haven't really done anything. I've made stuff. Yeah, I have made stuff. And it was like all the different, like, no judgment, accountability. Just having someone there makes them do the things that maybe they wouldn't do. Motivates them to do it. I know. That's beautiful. So yeah, we've had a lot of discussions about those barriers because that is a struggle for people when you're going into their home.

Yeah, it's a little different.

Like your situation, like I said, you're not my normal demographic. Yeah. Yeah. And there's more money in.

But I am richer.

So like I do do more money in you. No offense, but I get most energized by like I have another one that I'm scheduling right now, but she's got like a 19-month-old. Oh, that's so beautiful. And works full time and she's like, I'm so overwhelmed. Down. This is— and I'm like, this is where I get energized because I have been you and I want to help you so bad.

This is so good because again, like, um, if again, if I could move Hormozy's poster around here or any other business guy, he'd be like, you want to pull them over here?

Yeah, that's, that's true.

Let's get some advice here.

One day I came up here to work and he was standing in the hallway. Yeah, yeah, I'm just gonna go back downstairs. Yeah, there he goes.

Here you go. So like, um, that's Right. So what he would tell you is like, find more whales. Yeah. And just do whales. Yeah. But if you're like, I'm not trying just to optimize along getting the most money. I want to feel good about what I'm doing.

Yes. Which I feel good about what I've done for you. Yeah. But like, but you're not like, you're trying to— consultations like, oh, this makes me happy. Yeah. I want to make your life better.

And it's not like you're trying to get rich and I mean filthy being fucking disgustingly rich in the currency that you value, right? And that is— that currency isn't money, right? It's also not just charity work. You could go around doing shit for free or for what they could afford, because you couldn't afford a damn thing at your age. So you'd be like, I would have to, I would love to, I would love to. And if you charge fuckers like me enough, you could go volunteer to all the single moms in Bell County if you wanted to, you know. But, uh, that is think as I'm having these conversations with you or anybody that I talk to, it's like, get clear on the currency that you are optimizing for.

Not always just money.

And crank that shit to 11, whatever it looks like. And so I've been— it's been really rewarding to work with you because not only do you like pick up what I'm saying and you go hire an employee, like, it was awesome. Like, the next day or the next week, you're like, here's my employee, and then here's my other employee. I was like, that's amazing, man. Um, and I knew you were making a margin off of them, and I like like, you know, protected that or whatever. Um, but also your self-awareness to be like, hey Luke, like, you can do this. You've turned me down for support. It's like, that sucks, and I don't have to do it. I don't want to do it.

I don't do it. I would just charge you.

Just charge you. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Like, it's not so bad.

I wouldn't do it, but it sucks a little bit, right? Yeah. And so that was awesome. I'm so proud of you and, and the growth, like, again, around boundaries and barriers and clarity of what you're looking for and, and And that's, I guess, as we wrap this up, like that is the thing that I'm looking for in my own life, like looking in the mirror and looking in the mirror again and just being deeper and deeper and more and more honest with myself about what I want. And then just saying, hey, I'm trying to optimize my life along what's important. What's important to me. And that is not just one thing. It's a collection of things. And yes, there's a trade-off and I am okay with that. And so are you.

I think that's part of getting old. Older. I mean, we're the same age. Yeah. When were you born? You said '83? February. Okay, October of '83. So you were like right ahead of me. March of '83. So I think that like once you hit around 40, I don't know, maybe it's just me, I was like, God, my life's like halfway over. Like, am I happy with what I'm spending my time— yeah, yeah. And then as a parent, like, you start to have like regrets. Like, how many times was I at work when I could have been doing— you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. And And I think it's just, I don't know, women when they get older too, are like, I just give less and less fucks about what people think. And boundaries get a lot easier. Like, I tell my daughter this all the time. I mean, you remember being a teenager. She's like, one day she came out in jean, it was 90 degrees. I said, what are you doing? She's like, I didn't get to shave my legs today. Kill me if she ever sees this. Yeah, yeah. I know. Just give it a— I'm like, don't worry. Who cares? It's just blonde hair. I'm like, nobody cares about your legs. Leg hair. And she's like, but they don't. I'm like, they don't. They don't. I'm like, now I'm like, I went yesterday to donate blood and I was like, I haven't shaved in like 3 days. Yeah, fine. I don't even care. Oh, it's leg hair. Oh God, the world's going to end.

Yeah, yeah.

So I think that you just get older, especially women, and it's like, I'm so tired of caring what everybody else thinks. What do I think? What do I think about my life? My life's halfway over. Yeah, it is. I had a friend say, you're not middle-aged, I'm middle-aged. She's like 10 years older I'm nowhere near—

you're right in the middle.

Don't live to 100. Yeah, yeah. So no, I don't want the rest of my life to be just a continuation of what it was. Yeah. So hard to make those choices. Yeah. Well, thanks for choices.

This was an amazing, amazing bunch of stories. It's so much context about you, and we'll chop this up to so it flows better or whatever. Yeah. Uh, thanks a ton for taking the time and um, now that we have this set up, as we can do at the end, like 6 months from now or a few months from now, you be like, hey, this is the things that I've tried. So here's my empire.

Here's my empire. Or I decided I don't want an empire. I don't—

I have enough. I have 3 clients and they all pay me through the apps, and I spend my free time helping single moms on food stamps living in sheds organize their shed.

I think I have really realized how much I like helping people, and I think a lot of that is— man, this is getting deep. A lot of that is all of my time, like all of the hardships I've been through. Like, um, it really fundamentally changed who I was. Like, I went from being like a person who's like, well, just quit being lazy. And then all it took was having a baby who had very mild health problems compared to babies. I mean, she spit up all the— like 30+ times a day. Like, she spit up constantly. It was disgusting. Yeah, the smell of sour milk is still like, yeah, my baby. Yeah, it reminds me of— it was constant. She didn't sleep. Yeah, but like, I would take her to the GI and there's kids with feeding tubes. Oh yeah, I can't be complaining. There's— yeah, yeah, with holes in their heart. This is just reflux. She grew out of it. Yeah, yeah. But I think just seeing how fast you can go from being okay to being like, yeah, legit, really made me realize like, oh, life is not as simple as I thought it was, you know, in my nice.

So it's interesting to hear that because as I mentioned, like, I collect entrepreneurs like puppies, and it's like really the, the ones that I am most attracted to are talented, ambitious, articulate, exceptional, uh, 20-ish something dudes. Yeah, because I still see myself that way, and I'm just now like starting to transition into like a 40-something-year-old dude that has enough money to not have to grind all day in the ways that I don't necessarily want to.

I don't want to.

And it's just also not the way that I can best serve the world. It's like if it was the right thing, like I lost everything tomorrow, I didn't have access to any funding or anything, then yeah, I'd roll up my sleeves, I'd grab my stethoscope, I'd walk my pretty ass down to Pikeville and I'd say, "Who can I see?" And I would spend the 12 hours. The best. Yeah, it was one of the places. I'd spend 12 hours a day there and then I would spend the other 3 or 4 hours a day like hustling to get my feet back under me in another way. But I'm not in that situation yet. And until I am, you're not gonna do it. I'm gonna keep hiring people like you, keep doing what you're good at. And, and again, my ministry, or whatever you want to call it, is like helping younger versions of myself.

Same as you.

Yeah, cool. Thanks so much for coming.

It was a good time. Thank you.