Paulo Coelho Interviewed by Brendon Burchard - Part One "Manuscript Found in Accra"

Welcome, Paulo Coelho.

Hello, Brando. How are you?

I'm awesome. Great to see you, my friend.

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Well, it's such an honor. And I'm standing here right now with your new book. I got the advance reader edition from you for manuscript found in Accra. And I'm so excited to talk with you about this book because it moved me tremendously. And I know that it's going to do that for everybody listening and everybody who gets to pick up this book. Did you have an organizing goal or outcome that you wanted to communicate in the book or did the story just come out as you were writing it?

Okay, so the first thing is that the book takes place in a square. This is very important because philosophy is born in a square. In the Agora in Greece. People used to go there and discuss daily lives. And by discussing their daily lives, they start asking the meaning of life. And I thought to myself, well, first let me choose a Greek as the main character because he's not Muslim, he's not Christian, he's not Jew, so he can have a broad approach to religion and subjects. And the second thing is basically, well, to think about what is going on now that we did not solve. Because Brandon, you have to realize that, well, when you see Internet and the lack of values and I'm 65 years old, so I'm not going to teach anybody how to behave. Because if there was a brat, bad boy.

Yeah, you haven't been the most behaved in the world either, have I?

Right.

It's one of the reasons for our risk taking.

So I was a hippie, so you can imagine how my life was. So it was totally crazy. Sex, drugs, rock and roll, traveling, etc. And at that time, of course, my parents, they said, oh, you are misbehaving. You don't know the reality of life. And I said, but really I need to live. But during this period, I learned a lot about the importance of other people. Because when you are hippie, you have to count on other people to survive. For example, I was in New York, back to 69, I guess. And I could travel from New York to Mexico City, going to California, going to Yellowstone, going to. You mentioned, I was there in this Greyhound bars that used to cast $99 for one month traveling, you could go wherever you want to go. It was also my hotel. I used to sleep in the Greyhound bars because I did not have money for the hotels.

I remember you'd choose a destination that was six or eight hours away just so you could Sleep overnight.

Exactly. So you could sleep for free. So what is the next bus goes to? Well, give me a trip to a place that takes six hours or eight hours to get there. And I used to sleep there. But the important thing is that I did not speak English by them. I did not know anybody in US And I could travel and I could socialize and I could even have a. And I could even had a girlfriend in California. So because there was this common sense that when people has the opportunity to help each other, they will. So this is something that somehow is lost. And it's not that I want to go back to the 60s, but there are some values that we have to keep. And among these values, the most important one is there is a neighbor. Pay attention to your neighbor, help him and don't be ashamed to be helped yourself, because this is how the world goes.

Yeah, you have the great. There's a great story in manuscript found in Accra about towards the end where a man appears to his neighbor and asks for help. And he sells all his possessions to be able to help his neighbor. And then his wife, he feels bad and. And his wife says, you feel bad because now we're in debt and we're going to be broke and we had to help our neighbor. And he says, no, I feel bad that I didn't know my neighbor needed help.

Yeah, that's powerful. It happens so many times if I know. Because now we are locked in our little small world thinking that we can control everything, think that we can socialize only through Internet or social media, etc. When in fact, if you look outside, beyond the walls of your existence, you're going to see that people are there, people need help, and people can help you in ways that you don't expect. So when people ask me, who is your master? I say, well, my master can be a taxi driver. My master can be a book that I open by chance. My master can be a waiter. That it is there and told me something that I need to hear at that moment. I believe very much. Brenda in Synchronicity and Manuscript found in Accre is a book about that. About how important is to accept, sometimes defeat, to understand that we have enemies. But the fact that having enemies, you cannot please everybody, you can't please everybody.

Right?

If you try to please everybody, you're going to destroy your own life. I remember my ordeal with my parents because they wanted me to be who I who. Who they wanted me to be. But I have my own ideas. So this is basically what we have to Do. Now, I'm not preaching, I'm not saying in this book do this or do that. No, right. What I'm telling this book is basically, if I can summarize, accept confrontation. Confrontation is part of life. Nature is based on confrontation. You know, winter fights against summer and the lion tries to, well, tries to kill the gazelle, etc.

Yeah. You have this beautiful quote, page 16 of my book of. In the cycle of nature, there is no such thing as victory or defeat. There is only movement. And I thought that was so powerful because especially right now, depending where people are in the world because of the economy or something going on, a lot of people, I keep saying they're hiding out or holing up, waiting for the world to change because they are terrified of defeat. And because there's no movement in them, they'll never experience the victory. What are you to say to someone who right now in their lives, they are feeling defeated? They are feeling like there isn't movement? What can they do?

I would say defeat is part of life. What is not part of life is failure. What is the difference between failure and defeat? Defeat is for warriors, for people who go dear and fight and sometimes win, sometimes lose. But failure is when you don't have any more interesting fighting. So you think, okay, what's happening outside, it's not none of my business. I'm not going to fight because I may be defeated. You and I, we've been defeated many times, I'm sure. No, Brand, you've been defeated, right?

Yes, many times. Yeah, I was when I first started as an entrepreneur, had no idea what I was doing and literally went bankrupt. And I had no idea what I was doing. And I was definitely defeated. I didn't fail because one night, I don't know if I ever told you the story, but I was writing life's golden ticket at the time. Totally broke, terrified. The bill collectors were calling me on the phone. I was writing the book on a borrowed laptop that I had to turn in 45 days later and had moved into this tiny apartment with my girlfriend at the time. And she came in one night and didn't want to disturb me. And I was writing, but the apartment was so small that all of my bills, all of my invoices, my journals and my dreams, I laid them out on the bed because there was no desk, it was so small. And so she came in and crawled under the sheets of the bed, trying not to disturb everything. And I looked over and. And I saw my lady sleeping under the weight of my own bills. Literally. And it broke something in me. And I said, you know what, I can't be defeated here. I have to. This woman is worth fighting for. My dream is worth fighting for. Don't give up. Fix this situation, Brendon. Because you have the power to change, the power to do something about it. And that was a defining moment in my life where I overcame. I was defeated financially and career wise. I didn't know what I was doing. And seeing her and wanting to fight for my woman, it did, it raised something in me.

You know, love is the most important or the most powerful, the most powerful thing that we have. Let me tell you also about career wise defeat. When I published the Alchemist Back in 1988, Brazil was living under an inflation, let's say, I don't remember, but could be easily 300% inflation a month.

Oh my gosh.

So.

Good time to launch a book, huh?

That's why I don't believe in these excuses. When you launch a book and the book does not happen, it does not sell, people say, oh, it is the crisis, it is this, it is that. That's not true. Sometimes I have two books that didn't sell well. Two of my books, it is the fifth mountain and the winner stands alone. And it's true. It's not because of the crisis or this and that and that. It was because the book, these two books did not connect with the reader. But back to my defeat. So I was there and then my publisher said the Alchemist I just published to the Alchemist. And he said, this book is never going to sell. I said, but why are you telling me? Wow. He said, because, well, first for him it was easy to put the money of the copyrights of my rights in a bank and have 300% interest rate in one month. And second, the book was not really selling. So I went to the Mojave Desert in 88. So I said, what shall I do? Because now I'm lost. And I went to. I decided to spend 40 days in the desert with my wife Christina. And there I said, my God, I have to find another publisher because this one will not publish my book. He does not trust. And I start knocking doors. When I went back to Brazil after 40 days in the Mojave desert and a door opened because I knocked, of course. And then the book was published. And little by little, word of mouth, the Alchemist first became the best selling book in Brazil and then now it is the fifth best selling book in the world.

Overall. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's amazing. It's Incredible. I love that.

But it was defeated. You understand? It was because I was defeated. And I have no way to go back. I had burned my bridges. I wanted to be a writer. That was my dream since I was 15 or 16. And then I was. At the time that I wrote the Alchemist, I was already 41. And I said, if I go back, this life will be destroyed. I'll be a failure. So I may be defeated many times from now on. Eventually, I may not find a publisher for the Alchemist. I will not fail because I'm going to fight till the end of my days for my dream. And my dream was to be a writer. And here I am talking to you.

I love it. And I'll tell you, we're here because I read the Alchemist at a very critical point in my life after an accident I had when I was in college. And it just inspired me to find something, just find my own personal mission, whatever it was going to be, because I was kind of lost and confused. I didn't know. And the idea to go and seek treasure and to believe in my dream, it really spoke to me. And I love what you're saying about defeat. You have this great quote on page 23 of mine. It says, defeat ends when we launch into another battle. Failure has no end. It is a lifetime choice. So powerful because it is. Failure is something you choose and you have and you own and you integrate, and that's directing your days. But defeat says, you know, I know I can be victorious at this next thing. And then you follow it up and you say, dreaming carries no risks. The dangerous thing is trying to transform your dreams into reality. What about that person, Paula, who has a dream to be a writer, or has a dream to do something entrepreneurial, or has a dream to do something new in their life, but turning it into reality, it just brings up too much fear. Because your central themes in some of your books, the reason why we're friends, is because you're always talking about that. Between courage and cowardice and fear into personal power. What do you say to that person who's really struggling to figure out and move towards their dreams?

First, what is inside this person is that if I don't follow my dream, I can blame someone else. So in his eyes or her eyes, they will not be a failure because they can say, oh, I'm not doing this because of my children. I'm not going to do this because of my wife, of my boss, etcetera, Etc, etcetera. So these are people who are very Reluctant to do something right. Because from the moment that you take your destiny into your hands, you are responsible for everything. You cannot blame anybody else. So what I would tell to these people, yes, you can spend your life blaming other people for not fulfilling your mission. You are bliss, you are personal legend. But what is the point? One day you are going to face God. I believe in God. And if you don't believe in God anyway, at the end of your life you are going to look up to yourself and say, how did I spend my life? And then you're going to realize that you spend your life blaming. So I don't want this destiny for me. I don't want this destiny for this social entrepreneur or for this entrepreneur who is now thinking, sitting there and said, shall I? And the answer is yes, absolutely yes. Because you always will have support from someone. As I said at the very beginning, when I start traveling U.S. united States, I did not know anybody. But then, when you rely yourself, your life, your well being in other people's hand, you're never disappointed. Well, out of 10, 100 times, one person can betray you, but the others will help you. So am I to talkative, Brendan?

No, this is great, Paulo. The world wants to hear you talk clearly.

Because I am this person that's totally open. But I love that people ask me, but how can you be open? You know, you meet a lot of people and you discuss. And I said, well, the other choice, it will be totally close than thinking that celebrity and fame is safe, which is not to begin with, could be very boring if you close yourself. And out of many, many years meeting people, new people, I can say that one or two or three tried to take advantage of my celebrity, so to say, but the other 300 did not. And this is what makes my life meaningful. It is because I'm open to people. And by being open to people, I'm open to love.

Well, I love that too, because it shows a faith in humanity too, because I've been blessed to travel around the world doing these speeches. And I always ask my audiences, how many of you are scared to take action in your life more because you're scared of rejection? And everybody raises their hand. And then I ask these series of questions that basically ask them, well, how many times in your life have you been rejected in a way where it really hurt your identity, altered your real core feeling of who you are, and adjusted the course of your life? How many of you have been rejected like that? And everyone raises their hand. I said, how many of you been rejected like that two or three times, and everyone raised their hand. And I start going up 4 times, 5 times, 6 times, 7 times, 8, 9, 10 times. I asked them, the average around the world, Paulo, is seven. The people have been rejected in a serious way seven times. And I say, well, how many of you have ever met with or interacted with known 100 people? And everyone raises their hand. I said, how about a thousand people? Everyone raises their hand. And I say, so you wait, you've met with, interacted, or known over a thousand people. It went well with them. They let you be, you, you were happy, everything was okay. But you're steering your life out of fear based on seven out of a thousand. If you mathematically, if you look at it, those seven people by mathematics are the freaks, they're the oddities. The seven are not the norm. And so drive on the. If you knew the thousand people, if you had a thousand people at your wings, you could storm those seven people. Get over it.

Great metaphor. When I was a child, a child, a teenager, I think I had my share of being rejected. I was too skinny, I did not pay for football, I was too ugly, etc. Etc. Etc. So there I was rejected on a monthly basis, let's say girls did not want to look at me, etc. I did not have money also, so. And it was then that I start writing to express my feelings. And then when I start writing, I could. I could. I could share. I realized that the problem was not with my friends, it was because they could share football, they could share other things. I could not. But I had poems to share with them. So we start to belong to the same level. We are not naive. We are not telling other people, don't be naive. We are not naive, but we know that we had so many, so many defeats that you know how to manage our sword. You see behind me there is a bow.

Yes, I see it.

You can see there. There are my arrows. And you learn that when you shoot an arrow, every arrow is different, but you have to repeat and repeat and repeat and try and try and try and. And then somehow you become the bow, the arrow, the hand, the target. You become embed in everything. And then chances are that you are not going to be betrayed or defeated.

I love that. And I was saying right before we got disconnected, that this quote on page 153, therefore, what the future holds for you depends entirely. Your capacity for love.

Absolutely.

And I love that. Because what happens with rejection or fear or things like this, what happens sometimes is we're scared so we build up, you know, brick walls around us, or we build up, you know, moats between us and other people. But if you build a big wall to keep the bad guys out, the good guys also can't get in.

That's the problem with China. You know, the emperor who created this, the Great Wall, it was also an emperor who decided to burn a lot of books. Six books were saved. Among them the AI King, I, Ching Taote King. But at the end of the day, China became totally isolated from the world, right? So every time that you build a war, you have to take this into consideration. Having said that, I think that our worst fear is to be hurt in love, Right? Don't you think so?

I agree.

So. Oh, my God.

Yes.

I'm not open to love because I may be hurt. Everybody else is irrelevant when we compare to love. So what we need to understand is that every love is a different one. It leaves a scar, but in a different place of your heart. And don't repeat the same experience of love. It's not like training archery. Papa Pah. That you are shooting and shooting and shooting. And one day you do this instinctively. Love is like. It's totally different. So I've been hurt many times by women that I loved, but this not impede me to try to find the next love of my life. And finally I found my wife. We've been married for 34 years together. She is the one who supports me. She has her career also as a painter, and she has her bliss, her personal legend to follow. But, well, I only found her because I was not afraid to love, even if I've been hurt many, many times.

You were willing to keep looking and staying in the. I love this quote you have about. And I feel this about you so much. When I finally got to meet you in Geneva, I was so excited to see what you were like in real person. And you're the same way you are on video right now. I hope I am too. You know, one of the things I love about you is when I had the opportunity to come to Geneva and meet you, you know, I knew that you would be a very present man. And you were. And I knew you'd be very loving, and you were. But you also had this incredible enthusiasm for life and for learning. And you have this quote in manuscript found in Accra that says, enthusiasm is the sacred fire. And I love that so much because to me, everything I write about and believe in is about that too. About feeling fully charged and enthusiastic for life and for tomorrow. And I remember at one point at dinner, you took a picture of us at dinner and you tweeted it out to 6 million people or something like that. And you looked at it later on the phone and you had 30 people had favorited it. And you go, Brendan, oh, six people have favorited. And you had all this enthusiasm. How have you kept that enthusiasm? Burning that sacred fire inside? Because that also allows us, I think, to look for love when we don't have it, or look for success when we don't have it. That enthusiasm to get up during the day and live our lives. How have you kept yours?

Well, first I have to tell you, Brando, you should be more present on Twitter. You are lousy Twitter. You should be dear. Because such a wonderful person. Platform. Thank you. Having said that, sometimes I ask to myself, am I wrong? Because I have anything that a man can dream of. Theoretically, no. So I have money, I have the love of my life, I'm doing whatever I want to do that it is. I'm a writer and I'm never satisfied. I'm always trying to see new worlds, new seas, new universes. Why? I think that it's not. Well, I see that God is present everywhere, but there is this curiosity. I try to keep my soul as the soul of a child. And as I said before, as a child can teach us a lot of things. Among them the fact that. That a child is never satisfied, right? She or he always want to do something else. Etc. And a child knows how to demand something that. That she or he needs. So to keep your soul as a child, you see the universe, you see the world, you see every day as a different one. And then you are open to the most important thing in life, that your daily miracle. And I talk about this also in the manuscript found in Accra. I say that Lord, give us today our daily miracle and forgive us if we are unable to recognize it, which is very important, Brando, that you see each day as a different one. So today I'm talking to you, tomorrow I may meet you, whatever. Thanks to a lot of connections, we were able to sit down here in Geneva and it was a fantastic moment. And not only that, but people, when I post the picture, people start recognizing, oh, this is this, this is that, this is Brando, etc. So this is what makes my life interesting, you know, the fact that today is not like it was yesterday and it will not be like tomorrow. Right.

It's funny because, you know, a lot of what we've learned in neuroscience in the last couple years have validated a lot of what we, you know, you and I both tell people of that, that you wrote about it in Aleph as well, about the necessity of getting out and exploring the world and seeing the world and not getting caught in your routines or your existence as it has to be. Because in neuroscience, they found that the more we fully engage in the moment and the more that we experience new things, we release more dopamine, the hormone and molecule of dopamine in our brainstem, which makes our reward centers light up, which makes us feel happy or satisfied. And that comes from experiencing new things and fully engaging in them. And so you say, well, if you want to feel happy and fully satisfied, fully engage in the moment and do new things. It's kind of an easy equation. But, you know, people get so cautious. You have this great quote in manuscript found in Accurate where you say excessive caution destroys the soul and the heart because living is an act of courage. And an act of courage is always an act of love. And you love every moment. I think that's where that sacred fire comes from of enthusiasm. You really love the moment and love what you're doing. And I just hon honor you for that because it's inspiring.