Dynorphins, Heat Shock Proteins & The Healthiest, Hottest Sauna On The Planet, with Luke Chapman & Owen Buchanan

My name is Ben Greenfield. And on this episode of the Boundless Life Podcast.

The last year I was there, I got exposed to mold. Am I going to die? Like, what's happening? That's what led me to get in the sauna every day and just start getting that stuff out of me.

That's actually one of my favorite parts about the sauna is the—

There's very great detox potential for a sauna.

It's the best reset.

Welcome to the Boundless Life with me, your host, Ben Greenfield. I'm a personal trainer, exercise physiologist, and nutritionist. And I'm passionate about helping you discover unparalleled levels of health, fitness, longevity, and beyond. I remember kind of like I heard this about bone broth, but then I also heard about this stuff that it brings back the dead or something to that effect. Like, bone broth brings back the dead. So, I heard that also about this stuff called black seed oil. And it's like this mystery in the whole supplements industry, but it goes way back. I mean, it has a ton of just like ancestral wisdom and modern research behind it. And what I didn't know about black seed oil that I recently found out is that it helps with cortisol management and stress based on recent research. So, there's this little capsule that has black seed in it. Some people don't like the taste of black seed oil. You can swallow this capsule and not even taste it, but it's called Phymoquin. Thymoquin has been clinically studied for its ability to support healthy cortisol levels and help your body adapt to everyday stress. And then you just get the host of other benefits for the immune system, for antioxidation, et cetera, that you get from black seed oil. Because that's what Thymoquin has in it. Now, what sets this apart from other black seed oils is it's the only black seed oil product on the market that meets US Pharmacopeia guidelines, which is a significant differentiator in a category where quality varies dramatically. This stuff has been proven to have the exact high-quality, well-treated black seed oil that you're looking for to help out with sleep quality, with mood, energy, mental clarity, recovery, overall well-being. I'm actually doing a podcast on black seed oil too. I just think it's so interesting. I'm going to do my podcast with the same guy that makes this thymoquin stuff, Dr. Michael Murray, one of the most respected names in natural medicine. He spent 4 decades researching evidence-based approaches to health. He's written over 40 books, and he's a fan of this thymoquin also. So, if you want to check it out, you can go to his website, drmurray.com, D-O-C-T-O-R-M-U-R-R-A-Y.com/Ben, and use 25% off code BEN25 at checkout. That's drmurray.com/Ben, and use code BEN25 at checkout. And the product is called Thymoquin. So, I don't know if you've heard of Manuka honey before. It's honey that's taken from the Manuka tea tree. So, bees gather nectar from this tree, the Manuka tea tree. And, Manuka honey is packed with bioactives that give it 3 times more antioxidants and prebiotics than regular honey. And perhaps more importantly, just as importantly, it's got this rich creamy complex flavor.

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So, I don't think it's any secret that I am a huge fan of thermal stress. Hot-cold contrast, sauna, cold plunging, and the like have been an integral part of my own wellness and sanity protocol for years. I recently invested in a new sauna. It is a custom-built dry sauna that is tricked out to the max. Low VOC, air that circulates throughout, the floors are grounded, Himalayan salts lining underneath the benches, The Works. And, the guys who built it are based out of Idaho. They have a very unique approach to saunas and I thought it would be fun to talk about all things sauna from custom saunas to prefab saunas to what to look for in a sauna to things you can do from the grounding to the salt to the tricked-out heaters. So, it's all in this show. And, as a part of this show, I'm also going to put in the shownotes my YouTube video with my personal sauna mobility protocol, which I do in this sauna that we're talking about on the show, as well as the Western Soul website.

Western Soul is the name of the company built this sauna, owned by Luke and Owen who I'm about to interview.

So, all the shownotes are going to be at BenGreenfieldLife.com/SaunaPodcast. That's BenGreenfieldLife.com/SaunaPodcast.

Let's go talk to Luke and Owen.

Alright, guys. So, first of all, welcome to the show. And second, When we were visiting after you built the sauna in my backyard, Luke, I think it was you who was telling me that you actually got into this whole thing in the first place because you were sick.

Totally. Yeah. Yeah, it was not like a planned out thing. I grew up in Idaho, but I was living in Hawaii.

Wait, did you grow up in the good or the bad part of Idaho?

That's debatable. I don't know. I would say it was pretty good. Very well-rounded place.

For those not familiar with the Idaho debate, you know, I think Luke's south, I'm north, but I forgive you.

But yeah, so Idaho's home. I love all of Idaho, but Boise's a good area. And then I actually graduated high school in 2020. Had like no clue what I was going to do. Ended up traveling, going to Hawaii. I did this like mission school with YWAM. And that's kind of what brought me to Hawaii. Met a bunch of cool people, ended up staying out there, and then, you know, was on pen and paper living the dream for a while, surfing, working. But the last year I was there, I got exposed to mold and didn't figure it out for a while, but just like was not getting better. Owen and I both have like a background in construction. So in between like construction jobs, I was like, all right, let's build one. The doctor said I should be in the sauna every day.

And then by the way, just backpedaling just a second, that's like common in Florida also. Is it the humidity you think that, that contributes to the mold issues?

Yeah, I mean, all of Idaho, pretty dry, right? So like growing up here, haven't really heard of that. You know, like if anything, it's super rare, but like had no clue it could affect your health. I just thought like, oh, you had to fix your home. But yeah, I think it's the humidity. I was living in like the jungle too in Hawaii, so. Super rainy out there.

And so what, what were you feeling when you went to the doctor as far as like symptoms?

It was like anything and everything, honestly. It was kind of a perfect storm too. I think like, I don't know if I had COVID or what, but I, my immune system was down. I was kind of sick. I flew back home for Christmas and was snowboarding, ended up like slamming pretty hard. I don't know if I got a concussion or not, but like took a spill, had to rest for a few days. Was also run down and sick. And then when I flew straight back to Hawaii, I was already run down and then went into that same like moldy space, which I didn't know it yet. But then like for months I was not getting better and then eventually found the mold, got the air tested, got my blood and urine tested and like started to catch on to it. And I was like, oh, what am I getting into here? Like, this is kind of scary. That's what led me to like get in the sauna every day and just start getting that stuff out of me.

Yeah, it's weird. That perfect storm is something that you hear about a lot. A guy named Neil Nathan, I think that's his name, he has a book called Toxins, and it talks about cell danger response and how if you're in a certain state of sympathetic nervous system stimulation and your terrain, so to speak, is kind of set up to be on red alert, that encountering a toxin or mold or something like that, that your body might not normally freak out against can cause like an over-exaggerated sympathetic response if you're already in a scenario where you're compromised.

Totally. Yeah, I felt that. And then it was like a phase there for a while where I felt like the fear didn't help at all. Like my body wasn't in a state to heal yet 'cause I was like, am I gonna die? Like what's happening? And that like made it worse for a while until I got to a place, and the sauna was a huge part in that where like I had my safe spaces to detox. I was living in a clean house. All of those things like allowed my body to actually detox and, you know, reset from there.

Okay. All right. So, so, so get into the sauna piece. What— where'd the sauna fit in?

Yeah, so I mean, that's how it started. And then the background in building houses, Owen's dad, our grandpa, our uncle, they've all built custom homes, houses, apartments. So Owen and I did a lot of that helping out growing up. And then after high school, we built a custom home each year. And so it was kind of natural to like build our own instead of like trying to buy one because it sounded like a fun project. And then Owen joined in shortly after I moved back to Idaho to just to like reset, get better help with my health. And that's where I really built the first one. And Owen started helping me with that when he wasn't working. And then his work slowed down and I was like not ready to jump back into the family business or anything, like kind of taking my time. And, um, shortly from there, we just were like, you know, flipped one song on Facebook and we're like, I think there's something here. You know, it was 2023, so all the wellness stuff is just ramping up. And, um, we're like, I think there's a market here. We're passionate about building. And I was now passionate about like a non-toxic lifestyle and just being the best me. And, you know, right, right away he was in.

So yeah, you guys should probably be sending like Rhonda Patrick and Andrew Huberman and Joe Rogan royalty checks for helping you make Sauna popular for the past 3 years. So, we were talking before we started recording and you guys just got back from Europe. You were in, what, freaking Estonia, Sweden, where else?

Portugal, and then I was in Italy.

I think that's kind of a good illustration of what you're doing that's unique in the sauna space because You guys weren't just over there dicking around, you were actually doing research or sourcing materials or something like that?

Exactly.

Yeah, yeah. That's where we source all our materials from. So, even in the very beginning stages, the very first sauna we ever built on that shop in Star when Luke first moved back from Hawaii, we sourced all the wood from Idaho just because it was close. But, that's where we kind of started to run into the problems with cedar wood.. And we're like, okay, is there any other better options? Like we want to build the best sauna possible.

So what's the problem with cedar?

So cedar's just a weaker wood overall. So it's great. It's the only wood that's naturally antibacterial, antimicrobial, antifungal, lasts outside very well. The thing is, it's just once you get into, you know, year 3, year 4, especially it being outside, is that cedar, when it expands and contracts, the sun is getting hot and then it's cooling down, sun is getting hot, cooling down. So all that temperature change is going to cause the cedar to warp and bend over time. So that's where we found these guys in Estonia who thermopress all their wood. And not only that, it's made with aspen and spruce, which is 3 times stronger than cedar wood. So that's what gives our wood that darker color to it.

Interesting. And what's that mean for it to be thermo— you say thermopressed?

Yeah, absolutely. So it's just, it's just heat. It's just heat. So no chemicals whatsoever. Yeah.

It's an organic process where it's like they're keeping the wood, the wood. But it's like the cool thing about it and really why we switched is because it's exposing it to a much higher heat than your sauna's ever going to experience. So it's like around 400 degrees, you know, your sauna can get up to 212. So it's already been in like much harsher conditions. So when it hits that 212 mark, it's not going to start to warp. It's already been there. So that's a pretty cool thing. And it's like, you know, would be awesome to like stay in Idaho and like, you know, source from there, which we use it. We use some lumber mills in Idaho, like for the exterior of your sauna, because it's a great exterior wood just with the high heat of the sauna. It actually like resists the heat better too. So like your benches aren't going to get as hot. All those little things where it like added up to like, well, we're going to use the best possible materials, the best heaters. And so, that's why we've pivoted to that ThermoWood.

I'll put pictures, by the way, for people who are listening or watching. Just go to BenGreenfieldLife.com/Sauna.

This is a ThermoWood modified Aspen too right here.

Yeah, go to BenGreenfieldLife.com/SaunaPodcast and I'll put photos of the sauna that Luke and Owen built for me also because they do prefabs and they do customs. I had a prefab before you guys built mine and it wasn't a bad one as far as reviews and everything. I mean, we're talking a $12,000 prefab sauna, but it was significantly warped within 2 months of use.

Made of cedar, yeah?

Yeah, yep.

And, that's like everyone loves the smell, but yeah, the warping is the hardest part. When we built the first one, we milled all of it by hand. And it was cedar, but it's like if the board's not perfectly straight, you're stacking and stacking and it's going to make it easier and easier to warp.

So, it's kind of a paradox because people use the sauna to sweat stuff out. Obviously, there's very great detox potential for a sauna, not so much for microplastics. A lot of people think microplastics, they're almost too big of a lot of them to get through sweat pores, but for a lot of other stuff, metals, anything that's been conjugated in the liver, et cetera. The skin is a major detoxification portal, but then a lot of sauna wood from what I understand, and I think this was the first thing that landed me on your guys' website, a lot of the sauna wood is high VOC or high chemical.

For sure, yeah. Yeah. And, that's a huge thing we've seen with infrared. Because you're using, you know, more of those plastic or glued, because it's a much lighter, smaller sauna. They're like, okay, we can just glue this together. Everything we're using is like, it's bigger wood, it's heavier, it's more of a process to build it. But in turn, we can just use screws and nails on the exterior to lock everything in. And so the inside, you're left with literally just wood and then your heating elements. And then if we ever add any color, we're using waxes and things like that. That are totally like— they're designed specifically for sauna. It's just like wax and pigment, you know, to get like the black colors or whatever.

Okay. So, so even, even the paint, like the treatment that you do after—

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The thermopressing and everything, like, that's all low VOC also.

Yeah. It's literally food grade. You can eat the paint if you want to.

Yeah. Debatable.

Good to know I can go Willy Wonka in my sauna, Willy Wonka walls.

Well, and you don't have any color in yours, so you don't have anything, but yeah.

Yeah, just the black on the outside. I want to talk a little bit more about the engineering of the sauna, but before that, I know that you guys, you're not scientists per se, but you know a little bit about the effects of heat. There were two things beyond just what people are probably familiar with, detoxification and sweating and maybe some cardiovascular stuff that I came across on some articles that you have on your website, which are also linked in the shownotes. One was heat shock proteins and the other one was dynorphins. I think people are maybe a little bit less aware of what those two things are, what they do. So, do you guys feel like you could explain those?

Yeah, totally. And that's another one to shout out Andrew Huberman and Joe Rogan again because they've educated a lot of people on that as well. And then, like you said, we have a bunch of studies on our website from, you know, all the seminal pieces on saunas. And that was a huge reason of going to Europe and doing all that was just to go to like the motherland of where all that research is done and where they've been around forever. But because traditional saunas have been around forever, the infrareds are a little newer, so the research is a little newer. So that's pretty much everything on our website is on traditional saunas and the That's really where you're gonna get the heat shock proteins is in that high heat. Like I think the studies say like above 179, 180 is, is a good zone. And so that's basically just like, you know, it's controlled, controlled stress on your body and triggering your cells to create these proteins that can go and repair, you know, the misfolded proteins. It can help with recovery. And I mean, there's, there's endless things and Like you said, we're not doctors or scientists, but it's been pretty cool to read about it and hear about it, but then also see it. When we sauna frequently and are on a good schedule and routine, it's like you recover faster, you feel better. And then Owen can touch on dynorphins, but—

Yeah, it is true. I think a lot of people think maybe that's just blood flow, right, with the sauna or with hot-cold contrast, and that's why you recover faster. But, You touched on it, the heat shock proteins actually assist with repair of DNA and cellular damage due to their ability to support the natural folding that occurs with proteins in your body. It'd be like you are scrambling and then somehow unscrambling and reassembling an egg. That's kind of like what a heat shock protein could do for you. And, by the way, you mentioned infrared. I think you could take a lot of the what's called the photobiomodulation research, on PubMed and make a case that the light exposure you're getting in an infrared has a host of benefits. But you are right, like the lion's share of the studies out there have been done at like 175°F plus in a dry sauna, you know, European style.

And you know this better than anyone, but it's like, I think often a marketing thing that gets confused is like there's two types of infrared. One is the infrared light and the other is the infrared heat waves. And that's where there's also some studies showing like, you know, if you want the true red light, like you have all the red light panels, a lot of those absorption rates die off at a super high heat.

Yeah. Well, yeah, at 175. Yeah.

And it's like, that's where you want the heat shock proteins. And so it's like, yeah, it's, it's a super tough one to educate people on, but that's what we're, we're definitely working on and trying to stay up to date ourselves.

I could put red lights in this sauna that you guys built for me, but I would only be running them if I had it set at 175°F or less. There's no reason somebody couldn't do that, but folks should just know if you're going to outfit a dry sauna with red light, only use the red light when you're 175°F or under. I guess I say that, but it's not going to hurt you. If you're just using it for aesthetic purposes or for mood lighting, that's fine. But if you're trying to do the light for the physiological benefit, make sure the skin temp and the room temp isn't too hot. What about dynorphins? What are those?

Yeah, dynorphins, they're essentially, it's like a natural opioid peptide that's occurring in your body and they only get released during stressful situations. So, when you're doing something you kind of don't want to do, something that's uncomfortable like being in a super hot room, That's when these flood out. So it sounds a lot like the word endorphins. Those are more like associated with pleasure. Dynorphins are associated with uncomfortable things. That's actually my, one of my favorite parts about the sauna is the mental aspect of it, of challenging yourself and, you know, being in there where the only thought going on in your brain is get me out of this place.

Yeah.

But you know, you, you, you stay in there and that's where the true benefits come in is when you're in that controlled stress state. That's when a lot of these benefits come in is like, you know, you're in the sauna at the beginning and it's really nice and relaxing, but actually the benefits don't come in until you feel like you're dying and you're kind of in those beginning stages of heat stroke where you're really pushing yourself.

So here's some people talk about like how you don't feel a shark bite or a shark attack after the first bite because your body just floods with these endorphins to help you to feel good. Not to be gross, but basically in a sauna, your body has to figure out a way to feel good because it's so freaking hot. And, if you are staying in there at the correct temperature or at a high enough temperature for a long enough period of time, that's when you get that dynorphin effect. And, that's one of the reasons you feel so good afterwards. I mean, I was telling my wife besides our pickleball court, I think getting in your sauna and then getting out and swimming back and forth across our pond, which is kind of my protocol for the past few weeks, is incredible. There's nothing else that makes my afternoon, and I do this at 4 o'clock in the afternoon and then get back to work. So, yeah, it's great.

It's the best reset.

Yeah.

I want to get back into the sauna, kind of like the engineering. We talked about the wood choice. So, you use a thermopressed aspen, low VOC, low chemicals. What else are you doing, if anything, in the actual sauna itself from, from like a health standpoint, I guess.

Yeah. Well, the cool thing is like the heaters, you saw it, it's circulating all the air. So you want to have proper ventilation. We have vents in your sauna, but then also with the, you know, the Saunam sauna heaters, it's actually increasing the oxygen cuz it's pulling fresh air from the ground level and vents. It has an air intake, which is a super cool thing. They have a patent on it. There's no other saunas that can do that. And when we came across those, we tried it at the manufacturing site. That's also who we were visiting in Estonia. And it, it's just a game changer. It's probably the one thing in sauna that's like, it really is the number one issue changed is like now you can have it oxygen rich.

Yeah. It's moving hot air through the sauna. I, I have a friend who has like little mini fans, like USB-C powered mini fans in his sauna at the top to kind of blow the hot air down. And this thing, I think the way you guys described it to me is there's nowhere to hide in the sauna. The whole thing has this hot air circulating through it.

Yeah. And so, that's cool. I always tell people it feels more like a hot tub, your feet are hot and your head's hot. But then also, it's genuinely a healthier sauna because most saunas, it's just all that hot air is getting collected and trapped at the top, and this is cycling in fresh air. You know, it, it's like, I think you have to change the air in the room like 6 times to keep the oxygen levels like at the original state. And so it's like you're not, you know, breathing that CO2 and like having a completely trapped room. It's like circulating air the whole time, but it's circulating the same temperature air. So you're not like losing the heat. 'Cause you could open your door in a regular sauna and get some airflow, but then you lose all the heat. So it's just a super cool thing they do. And it's like, it also has the health benefits as well.

Yeah, it is brutal though because I, I do, I exercise in the sauna sometimes and I'll drop in front of that thing and do pushups with the hot air circulating, literally like pouring over my body as I'm cranking out pushups on the floor of the sauna. So it, it definitely warms things up.

And another thing to your point about like what we've done in the sauna for the health benefits is like the salt walls. So the, the Saunam heater actually has salt rocks in there, so it's gonna catch that humid air and pick up the salt ions, put it in the air, and then we have 9 feet 3 times in your sauna of salt rocks which are super thick. So, your whole room, you're getting some of that salt therapy which can release those negative ions, give you that ocean-like environment.

So—

Ben Greenfield: Talk to me a little bit more about that, what that means for people. I mean, people have probably seen salt caves or heard of salt therapy, on this idea of negative ions, but get into that a little bit more for me.

Yeah, so it can help like reduce inflammation. You know, a lot of the research I think is newer, so hopefully we'll get more and more on that. But, you know, along with also like, you know, you go to the ocean and other places, like it's kind of like the grounded floors. It's like you just feel good. Like I'm being outside. It's like one of those elements, like the grounded floors, the salt, the big window with natural light. It's like getting you into that calm state where you can actually heal and recover. And then, also, it can purify the air and help your lungs detox even further with that salt in the air. So—

Yeah.

Then, the negative ions, those are the same things you would get if you're walking on the beach or next to a waterfall or in a salt cave. Not a lot of people have a salt cave, so we just kind of built one. But basically, the sauna is lined with these Himalayan salt blocks And then, I could probably find a picture of this, maybe you guys do and I could put in the shownotes. In the heater where the air comes out from under the heater, there's all these little salt balls so that the air coming out from the heater is catching those also.

Yeah. And, the humidity is cool too because it really helps pick it up. It gives it something to attach to.

Talk to me about the water on the rocks because you go to a lot of gyms and they say, "Don't pour the water on the rocks. That'll destroy the coils." I had one kind of like an older cheaper one, one of the Hume heaters, catch on fire and some of the coils and that shattered. How do you pronounce the name of the heater? Solana?

Sauna.

Yeah.

Sauna, but U-N, Sauna.

Okay, Sauna. So, with the water, whether it's the Sauna or anything else, what is the rule or what's the take on putting water on the rocks?

Yeah.

So that's a part of the traditional Finnish sauna culture is, I believe it's loyly, it's spelled L-O-Y-L-Y.

Löyly, the spirit of the sauna.

You can say it crazy. I say it the American way. But anyways, that's been a part of the culture for the longest time is a perfect mixture of steam and heat and humidity. So we encourage it and especially with the Saunum, And a lot of other saunas, when you pour water on the rocks, that steam immediately rises to the top by your head and it's a really harsh steam. That's also what the Saunam does great is it filters that steam. So it's really mild on you and it doesn't burn your nose when you're trying to breathe it in. So it's a really nice experience for your lungs as well, especially if you have the essential oils in there. We like to put some eucalyptus, maybe a little peppermint type oils in there. Yeah. So really just, it's really nice to breathe for the aroma. And also I enjoy the humidity because it allows your body to heat up quicker. So, that's why it feels hotter when it's humid. It's a denser heat and it allows your core body temperature to raise faster than if it was just dry.

Yeah. Have you guys been in those saunas before or at, I guess, a spa or whatever where they whip you with the branches like birch branches to drive that humidified air even closer to your body?

Yes. Yeah.

Yeah.

We just got done with that in Estonia.

Yeah.

Yeah.

In Estonia, we, we found a traditional Finnish sauna house where, you know, the local people all come and it's communal. There's a men's and a women's one. So obviously everyone's completely traditional naked in there. And we rock into this sauna and it's like 6 levels up. And the— it's, it's one of the hottest saunas I've ever been in. It was hard to even sit down. The wood was so hot. When you put your feet on the ground, it was so hot. And these guys in there are just whipping themselves with birch and eucalyptus leaves and we're getting just pelted with mixtures of their sweat and everything. We're just in the culture. It was amazing.

That's right. Well, heat is antibacterial. With the rocks for this sauna, the Saunam, you told me I think that you could literally spray the thing down with a garden hose and it's still not going to destroy the coils.

Yes. So, that's the safety rating on this one.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This, like the, some of the other heaters, you, they like encourage you not to, or like you gotta be super careful. Obviously, like if it's wood-fired, you're pretty safe with like any brand, you know? But this brand specifically, like Owen talked about with you, it's like they test it by like spraying every angle. And so it's a super safe, like they claim it's the safest heater on the market and they're, they're UL listed, all that. They run their own test as well. And so yeah, it's a, it's a super safe heater. And actually, when we like build it for you, the like packaging on it, it just says like made for steam, and you have to like take that off before you put it on, which is pretty funny. Like they're encouraging it too.

Yeah. So they go one step higher than the, the Hume. You were saying you had the Hume heater before. That one, they're saying the safety standard that that passes is there's only like 3 directions, is like from the front, from the top, and from the side is where they sprayed it. But the Sonnen In order for their settings are a little higher. And so, theirs was literally every direction underneath, behind, 360 degrees, they sprayed it with a hose and it didn't short out. So—

That thing churns it out for sure. Speaking of shorting, this was something, it's kind of like I forgot we talked about it and then you guys showed me when I showed up from being out of town and you already well into building the sauna. My backyard. I don't think it's any secret for people who have seen my home tour that I got super into the EMF, like low EMF, hardwired ethernet. I mean, you guys stayed here, you're in the guest room, you know how it is. But I grounded the floors. Every floor that you're on is as though you're barefoot outside. And then, it turns out you guys actually can do that in a sauna.

Yeah.

No, it was pretty cool because we We're obviously talking with you for a while. We've, you know, seen the house videos and like how you guys built it and like, you know, we're also builders and then into wellness. And so like seeing how you guys constructed your home with, you know, every little detail, I was like, what can we do like for Ben and his sauna to like, you know, make it an extension of his house? And then it just like dawned on me one day. I'm like, I think we could figure out a way to ground his floors and like you know, have continue the theme, like every room in your house is grounded. So then we started playing around. Wood is alone, like you talk about it, it's kind of like wood chips. It's not like the most conductive surface, but I started playing around with the grounds in our house and like milling channels in the bottom of our wood with like thick copper wires. And if you use a thick enough copper wire, which we used in your sauna, and then mill it close enough to the surface of the wood, it's conductive and obviously we tested that for you and you can see your voltage leave the body when you step on the sauna floor.

That's what we noticed with the water.

Yeah. And then also it being a humid environment, it creates that moisture in the whole room. And when wood is wet at all, it's almost like you're touching the copper wire. It gets super grounded. So that's another cool thing.

Right.

It makes it more conductive. Yeah. Yeah. Why you wouldn't want to touch a telephone pole next to a mud puddle, a downed telephone pole. So, the idea then is that because I'm technically the same as being barefoot outside, I'm basically absorbing even more of the negative ions and that natural PEMF, like that they call the Schumann resonance that the Earth produces, but I'm not even outside. I'm sitting in the sauna and you guys figured out with the wiring how to pull that into the sauna.

Yeah. We had your electricians when they were doing the heater They pulled us an extra ground bar. So like, I'm assuming how you grounded the rest of your house or like anytime you ground an outlet, anything like that, they're like pulling a ground bar. So they pulled a ground bar all the way out by the sauna and then I fed it through the sauna walls. So under your benches, we have a ground bar where all of the, you know, each board we told you is grounded. We tied them all into that ground bar and then tested it and We're grounded.

The big picture window looks out over the pond. And again, I'll put pictures if you go to bengreenfieldlife.com/saunapodcast. Do you guys do anything special with the glass or the windows or anything like that?

It just needs to be really thick.

Sure. Yeah.

And it's tempered glass like a shower door. And then, we did half-inch thick tempered glass for you. So, it's pretty much the thickest glass you can get at that size. And so, it's super strong, super durable, and having that thickness is going to help keep some of that heat in. And then, I mean, anytime you're in a shower, bathroom, anywhere like that, you have to have tempered glass so it doesn't break. And then, it's framed completely with wood. So, you're not, again, not going to have any VOCs, no glues, it's just a wood frame that we sealed off on the outside. So—

I want mine to look a little bit more like my house. And so, the sauna does kind of look like an extension of the house. But then barrel saunas are a thing. I thought you guys might know this. Like, where'd the idea for this, for having a sauna in the shape of a barrel actually come from?

Unfortunately, it wasn't us. It is cool though, but I think it's, from my knowledge, I haven't done enough research on this probably, but like the people always compare it to the wine barrels and how that construction was made.

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Also disperses the heat pretty evenly, so it doesn't give you too much of like the corners to get trapped in. It's also a fairly simple, easy construction. And so it's a way to like avoid using insulation, all those things, because you're just using the staves as the insulators and the finished wood inside wall and the outside wood. Yeah.

All the same piece of wood. So, you don't have to build 2 pieces of wood on each side all the way around. It works.

Now, one of my complaints about a barrel sauna is a lot of times you hit your head against the ceiling when you're in there because there's obviously the shorter ceiling parts. Don't you guys build a big tall barrel sauna?

Yeah, cube shapes. So, we call them our Cube Saunas.

Cube and barrel. But they're both 7'6", so the diameter is huge.

So the actual ceiling on the barrel is 7'6"?

Yeah, the diameter of the barrel is 7'6". So when you're standing up in the middle, it's 7'6". And obviously as you move to the sides, it gets a little shorter. But that's the biggest thing about us as well. There's no claustrophobia, way bigger diameters, and there's also always big windows. So you don't feel claustrophobic. You can always look outside and enjoy the scenery around you.

Yeah. Even if you do no windows, all our doors are glass. We're pretty big on that. So we avoid like the swelling and jamming because wood on wood, it can absorb the moisture. The glass, it's obviously not going to change size. And that also like just allows for a natural light and window.

When you guys built, you know, you had you guys, Luke and Owen, my wife remembers your names by the way, because of the Luke and Owen actor brothers, the Wilsons. Wilfords.

Yeah.

And then, you had a few other guys kind of coming and going. As far as logistics go, obviously you have the prefab option, we did a custom option, but walk me through what it takes for someone to actually build one of these. Well, I have two main questions. If they get a prefab, do they need to hire their own builders, pour their own concrete, et cetera? And then, with the custom, What's the anticipated build time for something like that if somebody just flew you out to their house to do a custom?

Yeah, absolutely. In Idaho, we like to offer a white glove service. That's actually what makes us stand out. A lot of other sauna companies, they'll sell you a sauna, but they're not going to build you one. They're going to leave you high and dry and make you find someone to build it. So, if you're in Idaho, we'll come to your house, we'll build it for you, make sure everything's built the right way.

Another perk of being in Idaho, but just for everybody listening, don't move here. We do not want more people in Idaho, but if you already live here, it's a bonus.

Only people who already live here.

Yeah, exactly.

But yeah, like Owen said, locally, if it's super far, sometimes we'll have to turn it down or say we can do it at a certain date or things like that. Locally, we have a pretty good presence of, there's not too many sauna companies here, so It's easy for us to, you know, like in a couple days go build one and we can come home every night and we don't have to like get a hotel. But really it's like more than just Idaho. It's like as soon as we have to like, okay, we gotta get lodging and travel. Like we still do that. We're doing one in California here shortly. Last year we did a bunch of out-of-state. This year we've mostly stayed in Idaho. And so we've worked around that, you know, like we can find hotels and cheap flights and, and make it happen. But we're also working on a new design right now. It's gonna be hopefully like available for pre-order soon. We're still in the design process, but where the homeowner can actually build this super easily, like you and your wife could build it in an afternoon.

That's what we're working on while also like, oh, you mean like, uh, like IKEA style?

Yes. But like maintaining that super heavy duty sturdy, it's going to be like hardware, like that you'd see on like beam trusses, things like that to like really keep the integrity and strength, but then make it, you know, not everyone needs a 20-person sauna like you have. So, if they just want something smaller but still to keep that quality, no toxins, no VOCs, they can build it without having to fly us out.

Ben Greenfield: The reason I sprung for the bigger one was I contacted you guys right after I had come back from a trip in Germany and Austria where I visited multiple super cool saunas or I guess hot saunas where I was with a group of people And, on any given evening, pretty much every evening of the trip, we would have 12 to 20 people in there hanging out, having fun, visiting, coming and going. And so, my vision was, well, I mean, I won't beat around the bush, I spent like $75,000, $80,000 in that ballpark on this sauna, but I wanted it to be a place where I could hang out with my kids, my grandkids, have people over and not have what has been the case for a little bit. I'll get 6 guys in the sauna and we're just maxed out and people are shoulder to shoulder sweating on each other. So, I've already hosted multiple parties and masterminds and groups at my house and this sauna is the highlight. Everybody goes out there and just hangs out in the sauna. I'd much rather do that than drink cocktails and drink wine in the living room and then everybody jumps in the pond or in the cold plunge. So, to me, it's like, you guys know the tie between longevity and community, it's like the social, it's a social investment.

Totally. There's, yeah, the community aspect we love. We have people over all the time in our demo sauna almost every night. And, it's something about the community and just enjoying it, but then also as guys, it's struggling together is pretty fun, hitting a hard workout or going to war, playing sports. It's like, I think we all long for that and it's a pretty cool place to do it. And it's like we're all bettering ourselves, but then we also like have a reason to like connect and have a really good conversation. And so we, that's one of our favorite parts.

Yeah. The sauna's like my midlife equivalent of a fancy sports car. I'd rather have a nice sauna. For people who wanted to do like a prefab, and maybe that figure I just named is kind of outside of budget and they don't want to do a custom but they still want the low VOC piece, maybe one of these nice heaters, about how much can somebody expect to spend?

Our saunas range from $9,000 to $20,000. So, we have tiny little 2-seater ones and all the way up to ones that seat 8. So, it really just depends what you're looking for, but that's kind of the price range.

Yeah.

We're definitely high-end luxury. This is the best product on the market. So—

So, question for you guys, and I'm happy to answer this too if it's helpful. Ideal world, no time limitations, you wake up in the morning or you wait until the evening or whatever, for your personal sauna practice, you can include cold, you can include something you might drink beforehand, something you might do in the sauna, what's your gold standard sauna protocol? Wave a magic wand.

That's a tough one. That's tough. There's so many.

Well, definitely the Kona.

Yeah.

Kona Electrolytes.

This is—

I don't know if we're allowed to plug anything here, but cleanest, uh, supplements on the market. Guys from, guys from Boise, but his stuff's really good. So definitely be hydrated before you get in. I like to just pound water if I know I'm in a sauna. Yeah. The hour before I'm sitting there just chugging water.

Yeah, it's crazy like how much better you feel going into the sauna hydrated versus not hydrated. That's like a huge thing is like, you know, we obviously are encouraging saunas, but it's like if you go in there dehydrated, it sucks and it's, it's not fun. But if you're super hydrated, drinking clean water, clean electrolytes, it's gonna benefit you. So that's definitely probably both of we both share that one is like hydrated, you know, we're not drinking beers in there, but okay.

And then by the way, just as, as, as we're exchanging practices here, I would throw any pre-workout like citrulline, beetroot, anything that kind of vasodilates, you will just sweat buckets if you take a pre-workout along with your electrolytes 30 minutes before the sauna.

Yeah. When I was detoxing, I did a little bit of research on that with the beta alanine and stuff and getting all of that, like Owen's saying, bringing all the blood to your your skin where it can actually open the pores more and detox. And, it's a little weird when you get tingly, but I don't know. I probably haven't done enough of it, but I tried it a little bit to detox more.

Okay. So then, once you're in there, talk to me about time, temperature, and whether you're going back and forth to something cold or if you're just doing a long heat sit or what your favorite protocol would be.

I mean, our classic— I guess I can do mine and say his. They're probably a little similar because we sauna together a lot, but I like to start out with a dry session. So you hop in, the sauna's already hot and it's that dry heat. And when you're sitting there, when you're sweating, like when you steam it, you're not sure if it's steam on your skin or sweat. So I just like to start out with a dry session and literally see the sweat coming off my skin first. And that's just a nice way to get into it. And then after about 15 minutes, that's when you start hitting the steam. We like to put essential oils in it as well, usually eucalyptus or some sort of mint oil that's nice on your lungs. And usually go, I usually like to, you know, people go times and whatnot, but me, I'm just more of like, I go with how my body feels. So I go to where I'm at that point where I really, really, really want to get out. And I wait about 5 more minutes. You'll notice the, on the Saunam, the control you have in there, it shows the fan. It's like on a 15-minute timer. So that's usually a good one for me. I'm like, oh, the timer has 7 minutes left on it. I really want to get out, but I'm not gonna get out until that 7 minutes is done. So it's nice to just set a little goal that seems a little bit out of reach, but then you hit it and you're like, dang, I accomplished something. Like I really made it through.

Yeah, I agree that, that the timer on the heater kind of serves like one of those hourglasses. You just automatically know when it's at 15.

Yeah.

Yeah. For me, I would say like, A normal routine, I'm probably hitting it in the evening. If I had a day off, like, I love doing the contrast therapy in like the middle of the day. It's like such a good reset. Very rarely I'll do like first thing in the morning. I, I love that sometimes, like in the winter, especially like if it's dark and cold, sometimes the sauna will wake me up and get me going for the day. But I'd say my typical protocol is at night, like probably, you know, a little bit after dinner or sometimes before dinner if I'm trying to go to bed early, you know, get the body hot and then it's starting to naturally cool down. It helps with your sleep a lot. So that's what I do day to day. And then I don't like to end on cold at night just 'cause I feel like it wakes me up. I used to like do cold plunges every morning and all that, but for now, like I feel better with the sauna. But if, if I have a day off in the middle of the day, I love like a few rounds of cold plunge, sauna back and forth. I feel like it just like spikes your energy. Which is pretty awesome.

Yeah, I think I originally heard about that protocol from Jocko Willink. He talked about it on his podcast, I believe, the idea of going 5 hot, 5 cold, 4-4, 3-3, 2-2, 1-1, and ladder back up. A lot of times I just want to just do the heat and then just do the cold and call it good. And so, that'd be most of the time, 90% of the time I'm doing that. 90% of the time, I am at about somewhere between 3:00 and 4:00 in the afternoon because I use the sauna to split my day in half. So, I've been working all day.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Awesome.

It's a nice mental reset.

Yeah. Around 2:00, 2:30, I'll take a quick siesta but then turn on the sauna before that, get up from a little nap or meditation session, go in the sauna, and then I'll link to the video in the shownotes, but I do a bunch of mobility. I'll do mobility for 15 to 20 minutes. You move, you kind of get the body a little bit hotter because you're moving. In between each of the mobility exercises, I'll just pour a little bit of extra water on the sauna. And, if I've got a little bit of extra time, I precede all of that by opening this app called Othership. And, I've got a heat-resistant Bluetooth speaker and I'll play a 5 to 10-minute breathwork session to really get the blood flowing and get the heart pumping, then do the stretching. And then, for the longest time, I was just jumping in the Morozko Forge afterwards because that's at about 34°F. And now that my pond is clean, I get out of the sauna, I jump in the pond, I swim a few laps back and forth. I'm out there for 5 to 10 minutes. So, for me, it's about start to finish around 25 to 30 minutes. So, typically around 20-ish in the sauna and then around 5 to 10 of just getting cold, toweling off. And man, I finish that and I'm ready to go conquer another 3 hours before dinner of just phone calls and emails and everything else.

That's awesome. Yeah. Owen is asking, how hot have you been using your sauna? What's your sweet spot?

I gave you those 3 modes.

I crank it up to 212. I have to admit, if I would think farther ahead, this probably wouldn't be the case, but I'm usually in there 45 to 50 minutes after I turn it on. So, by the time I get in, it's more in the 185, 190-ish range, which considering I'm in there moving and pouring water on the rocks, it's ample hot for sure.

Yeah. That's when I like to do the breathwork or movement is when it's not quite up to 10. Yeah. You know, sometimes it's hard to do some breathwork or exercises at 212, but if you're sitting there waiting for it to get hot—

Yeah, it was just so random. I think Joshua, shout out to Joshua, my property manager, he's the guy who knew I was looking for low VOC and a bigger sauna. He showed me your guys' website and then I was texting you an hour later, Owen. And then, yeah, you guys built the sauna in 3 days up here at the house. And what I'll do is in the show notes for people who want to just surf around the Western Soul website and check out what Luke and Owen can do, and also if you just want to see pictures of my sauna walkthrough, the mobility video, which I think comes out pretty soon of the mobility exercises I do in the sauna. If you watch that video, that's inside the sauna that Luke and Owen built. So, you'll see that. I'll put all that in the show notes. At bengreenfieldlife.com/saunapodcast. Luke and Owen, thanks so much for doing this, you guys. I think the world needed a good sauna outfit that makes techie engineered stuff that's actually healthy.

For sure, right? Have you dragged that bike into there yet?

No, not yet. I haven't gone full Laird Hamilton, Aerodyne with the oven mitts, but it'll happen. I think that's going to be more of a winter thing.

Yeah.

Okay. That's fair. Alright, guys.

Thanks so much for doing this.

Thank you.

Appreciate it, Ben.

Appreciate it.

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