The Breathwork-Cold Plunge Debate, When You *Shouldn’t* Do Wim Hof Breath & What Happens When 1 Million People Breathe Together

My name is Ben Greenfield, and on this episode of the Boundless Life Podcast.

And the doctor told me, you're not going to walk normally again, your career's fucked. That was the beginning of my journey into breath. I am trying to get a billion people breathing in perfect sync. This is my mission. It's my best guess on how to make the world a better place. You'll have a lot of fun and you'll find a lot of benefits.

Welcome to The Boundless Life with me, your host, Ben Greenfield. I'm a personal trainer, exercise physiologist, and nutritionist, and I'm passionate about helping you discover unparalleled levels of health, fitness, longevity, and beyond. Let's talk ketones. The whole drinkable, eatable ketone category has become very noisy. A lot of products marketed as ketones are not actually delivering ketones directly. They're delivering ketone precursors that your body still has to convert first, which creates a very different experience physiologically and from a performance standpoint, a recovery standpoint, and all the reasons that you'd want to use ketones. My ketone of choice has become Tekton, T-E-C-T-O-N. They use something called R3-HBG, which is technically bioidentical D-beta-hydroxybutyrate. That's a mouthful. It's essentially the same ketone molecule your body naturally produces during ketosis. No precursor conversion, no ethanol byproduct, and in my experience, a much cleaner and more stable effect compared to the other ketone products that have saturated the market. And what makes this stuff especially interesting is the science on the regulatory side. First of all, Tekton's molecule is the first ketone ingredient recognized by the FDA as a new dietary ingredient. That's actually a very significant differentiator in a category that frankly lacks a lot of transparency and standardization. The founder's background has also caught my attention. The founder, Mike Chesney, spent decades in US Army Special Operations as a Green Beret combat medic. He began developing this ketone technology after dealing with a traumatic brain injury at TBI himself. So, this wasn't just built as another trendy supplement brand. Tekton came from a much deeper performance and recovery need. It gives me super clean cognitive support. They have different varieties. They have a variety of caffeine with lion's mane, with 5-HTP, and it tastes great. Single shot, knock it back, and you basically drink yourself into ketosis, which is pretty handy, especially for things like my morning fasted workouts or going out to eat, not wanting a raging appetite when I get to the restaurant. You can go to tektonketones.com, T-E-C-T-O-N, tektonketones.com/Ben, and use code BEN at checkout for a whopping 16% off your first order. That's tektonketones.com/Ben. Drinkable ketones. Use code BEN for 16% off today. What's quantum energy? Well, it's the energy that exists in everything. Every unit of matter contains quantum energy and every person constantly interacts with other quantum energy fields. And, your energy field can be affected, some say disrupted, by a lot of the toxic stress that is thrown at our bodies every day, in many cases with modern technology that creates electromagnetic pollution. EMFs are something you may have heard of. And no, I'm not telling you to throw away your phone and move to some pristine Himalayan mountaintop, but you can look into this thing called the Quantum Upgrade. They documented a 29% increase in ATP production when comparing the use of the Quantum Upgrade in the presence of electromagnetic pollution versus not having it there. Now, I'm no quantum scientist, but I do know that quantum entanglement isn't limited by distance or time. So, you can use this thing anywhere you'd like at home while traveling, New York, Tokyo, you name it. You have your own login and this dashboard where you get to choose the frequencies, you get to choose the type of quantum experience you desire. And if you're skeptical, you can actually try this for free. You get a 15-day free trial when you go to quantumupgrade.io and use the code BEN15. That's quantumupgrade.io. Use the code BEN15. I've been running one on my my home. I think I'm going on about 2.5 years now and my phone and my body. And it's very, very interesting and it's definitely worth exploring. So, quantumupgrade.io with the code BEN15.

My guest on today's show is Nick Sweeney. He made an app called Coherence. It's kind of like a breathwork coach in your pocket. He has this super unique form of breathwork called Vortex, which I've done a few times as you'll hear in this show. He's leading this global breathwork movement with the goal of a million people doing synchronized breathing together. And you can access all the shownotes, grab his app, everything else at BenGreenfieldLife.com/NICKpodcast. That's BenGreenfieldLife.com/NICKpodcast. Let's go talk with Nick. Alright, Nick. So, I actually did my homework for today's show. I did not just one but two of your breathwork sessions in my sauna over the past week just like the ones you have on YouTube. First of all, they were great. And there was some new stuff in there like this whole vortex thing where I was counting down from 13 all the way down to 1. You explain it in greater detail. But before we jump into your backstory and how you got into this in the first place, how do you describe this whole vortex breathwork thing to people?

Yeah. Well, first and foremost, thank you. I'm honored and it's a pleasure to be here because when I lost my ability to walk in a biking accident in college, I read your Boundless book from front to back. And was a walking textbook. And so good, good portion of that is why I'm here today. And so I wanted to extend some gratitude first and foremost. Secondly, the vortex is an inward spiral pattern that follows the Fibonacci sequence that you see in nature that comes from— you see it in galaxies, you see it in vortex mathematics. You see it in 369 mathematics and sacred geometry. And without getting too woo-woo, the vortex breath is a throttle on your nervous system where it slows you down. You're forced to slow your breath down and make it extremely intentional. And so 13 in, 13 out, 8 in, 8 out, 5 in, 5 out, 3 in, 3 out, 2 in, 2 out, 1 in, 1 out, hold. Is you hitting the reset on your nervous system in terms of slowing that breath down and using your core to barely move your nose hairs and barely move your breath. So it is a centering breath. It's balancing the different branches of the nervous system. And it's something that came to me a few years ago, and I had never seen it done before, and I started applying it to my practice. As a way to finish and enter into meditations. And I found it to be very effective. So, not a lot of scientific literature on that. In fact, it's like zero at the moment. I know your audience likes the evidence, but that is the tip of the spear, if you will.

Yeah.

Show me the PubMed. Okay. So, 13:13, 8:8, 5:5, 3:3, 2:2, 1:1, like 13 in, 13 out. 8 in, 8 out, 5 in, 5 out, et cetera. Why those numbers specifically?

So that is the specific 1.618 ratio mathematic sequence of the Fibonacci. And you see that in the seashells, you see that in different things, but that is also something that, that mathematic sequence is in our bodies. It's in our bronchial tubes. It's in the way that our heart vortexes as well. And so there was just this pairing of this mathematic idea and this physiological mechanism of the breath, putting those two things together. And there is a specific unique effect that happens there, but those are just simple numbers and you can actually go from 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 5, 5, 8, 8, 13, 13, 21, 21, 34, 34, 55, 55, all the way up.

You could do 55 count in, 55 count out, like on one.

I'm struggling and I do not look composed when I'm doing it, but I have done it.

Yeah.

And it is really powerful. There are techniques where you're doing breathing for a minute in, a minute out. And this is a more fun way to train it and also more sequential way to train it. So you can keep challenging how many numbers up the sequence you can go or how far you can go from the top bottom. You can go 84, 84. I haven't done that successfully. 84, 84, 55, 55, 34, 34, 21, 21, 13, 8, 5, 3, 2, 1. Hold.

Yeah. Yeah. I know we jumped right into the nuts and bolts and I want to get back to your story and even hear more about this bike accident, but back to the nuts and bolts. If somebody was going to do that, just counting aside, let's say you were going to take a one-breath inhale and a one-breath exhale, how do you describe to people how you're even controlling everything to go that slow? A few minutes ago, you mentioned using the core, but what's that? Look like or feel like?

It feels like physical torment to, to a degree because you are so acidic in your body. If you're trying to do slow breathing, that is training a specific mechanism, which is your cardiovascular fitness, frankly. And so the more cardiovascularly fit you are, the less oxygen you are using on a second-by-second basis. Which allows you to breathe longer and slower than other people. And so when people are cardiovascularly out of shape, their breathing is faster, more rapid, more shallow. Their body is trying to breathe. And so slow breathing is an indicator of health in general. And training your ability to elongate your breath is training your cardiovascular fitness. It's like going for a run without breaking down your muscles.. And this requires a ton of concentration, patience, and endurance. But when you do it consistently, day after day, your heart is learning to become more fit. Your brain's becoming more fit. Your entire body is using oxygen in a more efficient way. And that is the— it's a powerful mechanism for longevity. A powerful mechanism for parasympathetic dominance and allows you to become more attuned to your breath. But the longer you can breathe, the slower you can breathe, and the more in control you are, the more cardiovascularly fit you are. And so this is seen in people with lower heart rates, resting heart rates, or higher HRVs. They are breathing less breaths per minute.. And this is a great indicator of how long they're gonna live.

Yeah, that reminds me of, I think it's Patrick McCallen's book or books about kind of the low slow breathing. The, I get the cardiovascular piece and how you're gonna get better at it as you get more cardiovascularly fit and you're able to, to control things from a respiratory standpoint a little bit better. But to me, Even when I was doing the 13:13 on your breathwork program, I felt like I was having to contract my abs a little bit more. Are you kind of using the core to slow things down?

Yes. So, your lungs are not muscles and the slow breathing is training your diaphragm muscle, which is like an umbrella underneath your rib cage in that general region. And the intercostal muscles in between your ribs. Those two muscles predominantly are what drives your breathing. And when you apply conscious control to those muscles, you are controlling your breath, you have a greater degree of control over your breath. And so that is the main focus, is using your abdomen, using your diaphragm and your intercostal muscles to slow that breath down from a muscular standpoint, from a mechanical standpoint. And breathing is mechanical. It's the number one primary mechanic of movement in the body. And so when you get a greater degree of control over that mechanism, you can find that control in moments of stress. So it is a physical endeavor. And breathwork, I like to see it more as an active recovery workout rather than a meditation. And, it's easier for me to get into it when I see it that way. But ultimately, yes, you're using your abdomen, you're using your diaphragm.

So, one of the programs that I did of yours, I think it was an activation routine. Part of it I was pretty familiar with. It was kind of like a Wim Hof breathwork in multiple rounds with the exhale hold and the big inhale where you're pulling energy up to the top of your head. And then, it finished with your vortex, the 13:13. 8-8-5-5-3-3-2-2-1-1. At the end, is that— because I haven't done that many of your breathwork sessions, but is that always how it goes? You do a regular breathwork session, then you finish with vortex, or do you have different ways of using that vortex breath?

Most of the breathwork patterns that I deploy for clients and my audience end on the vortex for a very specific reason. And that is when you're doing breathwork, especially cyclical hyperventilation, Wim Hof style breathing, you are activating your sympathetic nervous system, you're activating your body. And so many of us in modern-day life, many of your listeners, we're battling this cortisol in our life. There's stressors all over. And what I found was if I just Wim Hof'd right after a workout right before my workday, I'm just carrying this stress. My body's not actually getting the signal of like, you're safe. And so the Vortex, and again, not a ton of PubMed on this, but the Vortex feels like this on-off switch. Switch off, switch back on. Now I'm intentional with my energy once again. I'm not burning like a bonfire into my workday after my workout in the morning. I'm more of a flamethrower. I'm more concentrated. More coherent.

So, when do you tend to do your breathwork? I know people do in the sauna, people do it before they do a cold plunge, before workout. I'm personally these days more like a mid-afternoon as a way to break up my day type of guy when it comes to breathwork for 10, 15 minutes. But when do you do it and why?

There are so many ways to breathe and for so many different physiological outcomes. I am breathing intentionally as often as I can throughout the entire day. And I will be—

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Taking what I, uh, have on the docket for that day, let's say I have a podcast with Ben Greenfield later this day. Well, I'm going to breathe in a certain way in the morning, get my energy right, and then I'm going to make sure that I'm in a parasympathetic, relaxed way before the podcast. I'm very tactical, very specific for specific people, specific nervous systems, specific outcomes. So for example, I will wake up and I will do some gentle coherence breathing, 6 in, 6 seconds in, 6 seconds out, to wake up, to get into my body.

Like, well, like when you're, uh, when you're still in bed?

Yeah, right when I'm still in bed, feeling, feeling the body, getting, getting woken up just gently. And then I will go and I usually do a workout. Oftentimes it's, uh, jump squats. So I will inhale as I squat down, exhale as I jump up explosively. And I'll do that 100 times. And then I will sit down and I will do cyclical hyperventilation, like Wim Hof style, do a breath hold, inhale once, exhale, hold breath hold again, really push my breath hold. And then I will come into coherence with coherence breathing and a vortex. What this does is I go and I get out of my mind into my body with a workout. Then I sit myself down. Do some Wim Hofing to flush lactic acid, to load up on energy, to cultivate some energy. And then this breath hold resets my nervous system, resets my brain. I will get into coherence where I'm circulating that energy, and then the vortex is concentrating that energy. So in general, I wake up and I'm doing big breathing, lots of energy moving, flushing out the cobwebs, and then I'm getting into a circulation. Moving that energy through my body, and then a concentration. And that is the Vortex Method, and we can get into that later. But that's how I start my mornings most days. Then I will be tactically breathing. Right before a workout, I'm gonna, I'm gonna boost up. Let's say I want to do a long cardio or something like that, I'll boost up with some hyperventilation. After a workout, I'm going down. Before a meal, I'm doing downward breathing to get parasympathetic so I can digest my meal. And then maybe I want to focus for work, I will do some breathwork that balances the branches of my nervous system. So, it's very tactical, it's very specific. And whether someone's feeling or wanting to get over burnout or wanting to perform at the highest level, there's an answer, there's a pattern for them. The fun part is finding out which one is for you.

Yeah, for sure. The thing you mentioned, the Vortex Method, is that different than just the Vortex breathwork that we talked about?

Yes. So the Vortex breath is something that my brother and I just stumbled upon, this Fibonacci sequence of breathing. The method is something that actually I, I lived, and that is my story, where in college I was cross-country ski racer at the highest level, won NCAA championships, and was gunning for big things. But I got in a bike accident and I couldn't walk. For 10 months and the doctor told me, you're not going to walk normally again. Your career's over. Good luck. That was the beginning of my journey into breath and my journey into Wim Hof. And so the first part of the Vortex Method is Wim Hof because that's what I lived first. I was Wim Hofing. I got myself to the point where I could walk again without pain using Wim Hof style, using cold thermogenesis. Run again in 6 months, and then a year later I was at Olympic trials doing what I love to do again. And that was through the breath. But then I concussed myself doing Wim Hof and passed out, slumped over, hit my head.

Oh man.

Uh, and I, I learned a lot and I learned that after, after that happened, I had a psychosomatic story in my body that said, when you do Wim Hof breathing, we might get injured. And my body was scared, and I was suffering from autonomic dysregulation. Just nervous system was fried.

So what you're saying is, like, even if you could be, like, surrounded by super soft meditation woo-woo cushions and everything, and, you know, wrapped in your little nest doing Wim Hof, your nervous system is still freaking out because it remembers that you got concussed doing it?

Yes. And I think it was— it remembers— it remembered that it got concussed doing a specific thing, doing a specific breathing pattern. And I had to unwind that story with breath holds and coherence breathing and Buteyko breathing. So it's some more of that Oxygen Advantage stuff. And that is phase 2 of the Vortex Method. So phase 1 is cultivation, Wim Hof. Phase 2 is like breath holds, slowing it down, coming into coherence. And phase 3 is later in my life. I used this Vortex Method and started to really concentrate my energy. So cultivation, circulation, concentration over the course of 3 years. But that breath empowered me and allowed me to go from unable to walk to racing at Olympic trials, to teaching people and seeing people heal in real time through similar injuries, at least at an accelerated rate. And that's why I live and breathe this. I'm so passionate.

Yeah. What was the mechanism of action of the concussion? Were you like doing the breathwork standing up? Were you just like sitting down, slumped backwards, slumped forwards? Like what happened exactly?

So, I was doing specific breathwork while I was on a run about a month before Olympic trials. And I was inhaling 2 seconds, exhaling 2 seconds, holding my breath. I did that, but then my foot started to like really hurt in an odd way.. And so I went and I sat down on a bench and I decided to do 30 breaths of Wim Hof. So I did pretty powerful hyperventilation. I exhaled, held my breath until I was generally uncomfortable, inhaled, held my breath, squeezed all my muscles and slumped over. And that was the mechanism, was the inhale, hold breath, squeeze muscles. And I've actually passed out multiple times doing that. So, don't recommend it.

Yeah. Oh, well, while we're in confessional mode, both me and my sons have all passed out, me multiple times. We're always in a pretty safe place, usually in the sauna. I mean, I've been doing father-son breathwork with them since they were literally 4 or 5 years old. So, I remember the first time it happened. River, who's the older brother, saw Terran just kind of go limp. Again, I know this makes me sound like a horrible father, but I really am paying attention to these guys. And he's like, "Terran's sleeping, Dad." I'm like, "All right." So yeah, but they're tough boys and they're still alive. They're not dead yet. So anyways, now that I'm going to have all the social workers writing in in the comments section scolding me, I want to move on. And I noticed you have some videos about mobility and fascia, and that is a huge passion of mine. I just put out a big YouTube video about my own routine. But for you, tell me a little bit about the mobility and the fascial practice and what that looks like and how you might incorporate breath with that and what your routine is.

Yeah, the fascia is something that I believe is misunderstood. And it's funny because it seems like if you just mention the word fascia online, it just goes viral. And I love that it's becoming more popular term and people are wanting to understand it because I do believe it's really important. And to boil it down simplistically, I believe that fascia is you and you are your fascia and your fascia is you because your nervous system is innervating the fascia and your nervous system is just you, just your brain spread throughout your entire body. Again, I'm not an expert here, but this is the conclusions I've come to. And fascia, if there's a certain story where you're pushing your fascia over and over and over and it keeps recoiling and you keep overriding that fascia telling you, stop, I don't want to do this anymore, then it's going to cause problems and create pain for you. And this is what's happened to me in my right diaphragm area, colon area, gallbladder area, upper ascending colon area. I've had pain there for like 2 years. I'm over the hump. I've learned so much and part of why I had so much pain there was because I had this fascial spiderweb that was collapsed in that area. And fascia is interesting because if it really is you, then it knows you and it knows when you're trying to do something and it doesn't fully feel safe enough to release. So everyone's obsessed with releasing their fascia. Getting out of chronic pain. But if you come at it from an approach of force, it's just going to recoil back because that— it doesn't feel like it can trust you. And I know this might sound a bit esoteric, but for me it was learning to find safety and use my breath gently to unwind this fascial spiral mechanism. And the last thing I'll say is that when I was— we harvest elk and deer in the fall, and I was elk hunting this fall. I got a bull elk for the first time, and we're cutting this elk up in the middle of the night in the woods. And I'm just in awe of how it's held together by this fascia, this triple collagen helix structure, whatever you want to call it. It is the elk, and it is harnessing all of the muscles, the structures. And I believe that if you work with the fascia in a gentle way with your breath and a consistent way, that's how you can move through it, whatever chronic pain may have arisen from it. And, uh, there can be a deep psychosomatic conversation around this, but I'll leave it at that.

Okay. I've seen some, like, combinations of breathwork and fascial work where you're using whatever, like your fist, your fingers, a mobility ball, a foam roller, the handle of a kettlebell, you name it, and pinning a certain area and kind of breathing into that until that area relaxes. Is that what you mean by combining breath and fascia or are you doing something else?

I'm doing those types of practices, but more what I've been doing is finding the point where I'm meeting resistance in my fascia. So for example, let's say you have a shoulder injury and it's painful if you move your shoulder up and it's painful if you move your shoulder down, but your shoulder, if you were to just do the movement that you can reliably do without pain. So let's say I'm, I'm doing this for my shoulder. I'm not going to hit that point of impingement. I'm not going to hit that point of pain. I'm just going to fluidly move it. And hydrate it. And then as I'm doing this, I'm in a state where I'm breathing slowly. And so my theory that, again, would love to have some science around this, is that the slower your brainwaves are, the more relaxed your fascia is, the more adaptive it is, the more available it is to release, move, and change. And this is because I believe this because the fascia is this interesting compound of liquid and solid and malleable material that if you can relax your brain enough and let your body feel safe enough to change the way that it moves, the pattern that it moves in, then you are available for release, for a release of tension. And so the way that I use the breath is to get my brain into a theta brainwave state. And then I'm doing these gentle movements.

Yeah, it kind of makes sense. It's a little bit related to how you were talking about how you'd breathe yourself up in a fight-or-flight sympathetic sort of way pre-workout is if the fascia releases and is relaxed when you're in, let's say, more of a theta brainwave relaxed state, then if you were going to go do something for which you'd want tight springy loaded fascia full of kinetic energy or stored energy, then you'd actually want to be in a more activated maybe beta brainwave state. So, it kind of works both ways, right?

Absolutely. I used to be doing stretching with my breath in a Wim Hof pattern, and I did not get many places doing sympathetic breathwork while stretching. But, if I do parasympathetics, slow breathing, I go way farther and release much more tension.

Yeah. That actually relates to something I wanted to ask you. So, falling asleep, you hear about 4-count in, 8-count hold. You hear about 4-count in, 7-count hold, 8-count out. You hear about the coherent breathing that you just talked about, 5 to 6 seconds in, 5 to 6 seconds out. You hear about box breathing, right? Forehand, forehold, forehand, forehold. Everybody's got their version to help you fall asleep faster or fall back asleep when you wake up at night. What is your go-to?

So, my go-to actually starts in the shower where before bed, I'm going to take a warm shower and I'm going to have no lights on in my bathroom. It's going to be pitch black dark. And I will do the physiological sigh, number one science-backed breathing pattern for stress. And this physiological sigh is breathing 80 to 90% in, and then a short pump at the top. And then I will hum, mm, while I'm in the shower, gently relaxing, mm, all the way. And you guys can do it just one more time.

Pump.

Mm.

I'm a huge fan of humming. Physiological sigh, dark shower, sensory experience, my eyes are not getting the stimuli anymore. I'll go into bed and I will do the 4-7-8. I mean, it's just pretty powerful for me. I have not found a better technique. I wish I had, but 4 in, 7 hold, 8 out. And if you do that, at first it feels uncomfortable.

It does. Yeah, you're right. It feels like you're running out. And I've heard this from multiple people. It's like, I heard this was supposed to be relaxing. This stresses me out. I feel like I'm running out of air. And then, I think once you get several days in, it starts to get easier. But if you just do it for a night and then give up because it feels weird, you're not giving yourself a chance to kind of get that respiratory training done.

Yeah. And I would say challenge your viewers, try to do it for 5 to 7 minutes. And it's going to feel uncomfortable for the first 2, 3, 4, 5 minutes. But if you, if you move through that, you'll just wake up in the morning is what I found. If you move through that point of uncomfortability and do the 4-7-8, and I even like to do humming on the exhales of the 4-7-8, perhaps put my legs up on the wall to begin for those first 2, 3, 4 minutes, 4-7-8, legs up on the wall, put the legs down. Do it another 5 minutes, and I wake up in the morning personally. And so that would be my number one recommendation is the 4-7-8. 4-4-8 is good as well. I did that for my 89-year-old grandpa and he was sleeping a lot better at altitude. So the, the final thing I would say is that some people, to sleep through the night, it can be extremely beneficial to do some weighted breathing. So do 4-7-8 breathing, but put a few books on your abdomen and your chest. And this activates that diaphragm, diaphragm, and intercostal muscles before you go to bed. So now my breathing muscles are activated, they're ready, and then I can breathe much slower, smooth my brain waves out, and then I'm, I'm zzz.

Okay, cool. Yeah, I've heard about the, uh, like the tie the string around the belly button type of trick, but yeah, placing something on top of the chest. Probably doesn't even need to be heavy as long as it's something that you can actually feel. It's more like the proprioceptive sensation of feeling as though you're lifting something than it is the resistance, right?

My pro tip is lay on your stomach and do 10 breaths with your head to the left, 10 breaths with your head to the right. My diaphragm's activated. I'm ready to go to bed.

That's a great tip. I love that. So, When it comes to the idea of thermal stress, I talked about breathwork in the sauna. You talked about combining things like Wim Hof breathwork with cold thermogenesis during your recovery. How do you think people should combine, if there is a should here, or what do you do when it comes to the combination of sauna, breath, and cold? What's the tactic you like, if any?

Answer this firstly with my experience healing my foot, which was I began— became obsessed with sending energy to my right foot to the point where after a couple weeks I was able to feel my right foot after a breathwork session, how it was much warmer than my left. So I'm feeling my right foot, it's warmer than my left. Okay, interesting. So I'm, I'm changing the vascularity of my right foot when I'm doing breathwork. I then began to experiment with just an ice pack on that point of injury during breathwork, and this acted as a conscious anchor for my brain and body to just send energy there. That was the command: just send energy, healing resources, flush free radicals, do your thing. And that cold is also, especially on a breath hold or slow breathing, the blood vessels are being opened. They're opening up as you're doing breathwork, and the cold is acting as a resistance against that opening. And so you're strengthening that vascularity by adding a force that's trying to constrict it at the same time. And what I found was Nothing made my foot heal quicker or feel better. And I have since used that on myself and many other anecdotal situations with clients. But just the ice pack on the point of injury is that anchor for your body to send energy there while you do breathwork or meditation. And the broader conversation is nuanced. I believe that ice is really powerful. Sauna is really powerful. I am the biggest proponent of both, and I was able to take my mom from being unable to take a 30-second shower to jumping in the ice-cold river of Colorado this winter with me most every week. And she has overcome so many of these hot flashes and health issues through training that vascular system. I am a huge fan of thermogenesis, cold adaptation. But I also believe that—

I remember kind of like I heard this about bone broth, but then I also heard about this stuff that it brings back the dead or something to that effect. Like bone broth brings back the dead. So, I heard that also about this stuff called black seed oil. And it's like this mystery in the whole supplements industry, but it goes way back. I mean, it has a ton of just ancestral wisdom and modern research behind it. And what I didn't know about black seed oil that I recently found out is that it helps with cortisol management and stress, based on recent research. So, there's this little capsule that has black seed in it. Some people don't like the taste of black seed oil. You can swallow this capsule, not even taste it. But, it's called Thymoquin.

Thymoquin.

It's been clinically studied for its ability to support healthy cortisol levels and help your body adapt to everyday stress. And then, you just get the host of other benefits for the immune system, for antioxidation, et cetera, that you get from black seed oil because that's what Thymoquin has in it. Now, what sets this apart from other black seed oils is it's the only black seed oil product on the market that meets US Pharmacopeia guidelines, which is a significant differentiator in a category where quality varies dramatically. This stuff has been proven to have the exact high-quality, well-treated black seed oil that you're looking for to help out with sleep quality, with mood, energy, mental clarity, recovery, overall well-being. I'm actually doing a podcast on black seed oil too. I just think it's so interesting. I'm going to do my podcast with the same guy that makes this thymoquin stuff, Dr. Michael Murray, one of the most respected names in natural medicine. He spent 4 decades researching evidence-based approaches to health. He's written over 40 books, and he's a fan of this thymoquin also. So, if you want to check it out, you can go to his website, DrMurray.com, D-O-C-T-O-R-M-U-R-R-A-Y.com/Ben, and use 25% off code BEN25 at checkout. That's DrMurray, M-U-R-R-A-Y.com/Ben. And use code BEN25 at checkout. And the product is called Thymoquin. Most events like conferences and expos and stuff that you go to, you sit, you listen, you go home. Very few have you actually getting a chance to test ideas and concepts and fun toys and tools and strategies in real time and have you leaving with a different understanding of how your body actually works. Enter Eudaimonia. This is 3 days in West Palm Beach where you're actually in it. So, you're testing things, talking to experts, trying technologies you've never had access to before, surrounded by people who are just as obsessed with longevity and biohacking and health and all this stuff as you are. I'm talking brain health, hormones, peptides, longevity protocols, gut health, mobility, you name it, the full picture. And not just talks, you get to try this stuff right there on the floor. I will personally be in West Palm Beach at Eudaimonia speaking. I'll be leading a live movement session. And honestly, the people you meet there are just half the value. Serious, curious, already doing the work, and you get to leave with new tools, new ideas, and be ready to add years to your life and life to your years. So, if you want to be in a room where ideas are actually tested and applied, this is the room. November 5th through the 8th in West Palm Beach, Florida. And honestly, It's a pretty good excuse to spend a few days in the sunshine there in November. Save $100 when you register at BenGreenfieldLife.com/Eudaimonia. Should you need help, Eudaimonia is E-U-D-A-I-M-O-N-I-A. BenGreenfieldLife/Eudaimonia. Come curious, leave calibrated, and I'll see you there.

You know, on the internet right now, there's this debate of women shouldn't ice bath at all. Yeah, everyone's dunking themselves in cortisol when they jump in there in the morning, and there is some truth to that, but there's also some truth to living a life of comfort and your nervous system being calibrated to modernity and not used to something that actually could kill you, which is an ice bath, and giving yourself that exposure, and those chemoreceptors are going to adapt to that exposure of something that's really dangerous. And allowing yourself to be calm and parasympathetic in ice bath is a much different scenario than jumping in the ice bath, hyperventilating, freaking out, not getting in control of your mind, and then going about your day. If you can extremely in control, calm, allow yourself to be in the ice bath, I believe it's extremely beneficial. And we overlook the fact that Wim Hof was in an ice bath for 80 minutes and kept his body temperature normal.. And I think that we should continue talking about that because I think the medical establishment doesn't really want to highlight how that's possible. And for the sauna, I love doing it after workouts. I love doing the cold plunge before workouts, and unless I'm about to do a race or something like that. So it's very nuanced. I could keep talking, but I'll leave it at that.

Yeah.

Yeah. There's a lot there. I mean, even the Wim Hof thing, of course. Because of issues related to what we were talking about before, risk of concussion, passing out, et cetera. The general idea bandied about on the internet is just like, "Don't do breathwork when you're in the cold." I think that's a little bit kind of black and white, all or nothing baby talk. It's like, well, you actually can do, for example, big controlled inhale through the nose, long and slow, longer exhale, and maintain a pretty relaxed state while you're submerged in cold water without doing some form of rapid breathwork that's going to risk passing out. You can also do Wim Hof-style breathwork in the cold plunge if you have someone standing there watching you. There's a lot of subtle nuances. And I think the solution isn't because you heard somebody had shallow water blackout to never do breathwork when you're in the cold, It's either A, do it under supervision, or B, use your breath to vasodilate or relax your body, but you don't have to go to extremes, right?

Ben Greenfield: Yeah. I am in total agreement with you. And, I believe that Wim Hof-style breathing, more fire-type breathing while you're in the ice is extremely powerful and beneficial given that you're supervised. And frankly, I feel bad. I mean, I was doing some silly things in the pool, but I love breath holding in an ice bath under supervision. I love moving the energy in my body under supervision, and it can be very, very powerful and incite a ton of healing mechanisms.

Ben Greenfield: Yeah, yeah, I agree. It's kind of like we want to be safe, but we also don't necessarily want to embrace the mentality that has put soft mats on all the playgrounds and made kids wear helmets if they're ever going to touch the monkey bars. It's like, well, there's going to be some inherent danger and yeah, you might pass out actually if you're doing Wim Hof breathwork in a cold plunge. And so, you need to know your limits, you need to do things under supervision, but I don't think the answer is like, if you're in the cold water, don't do anything abnormal with your breath. I just think that's a little too extreme. So, the thing that I don't think I've talked about before when speaking with a breathwork practitioner is the idea of the actual air you're breathing in. So, I have a sauna and it actually has Himalayan salt blocks in it. So, the whole sauna is full of these negative ions and electrolytes that are filling the air as the hot water pulls over these salt blocks. Shout-out to the guys down in Boise, Idaho, Western Soul, Luke and Owen down there who built this sauna and put those into the sauna. So, when I'm doing my breathwork in the sauna, I'm getting a lot of these beneficial salt ions breathed in. But then, if you were in your backyard, not to throw them under the bus, but downtown LA doing breathwork, you might be breathing in brake dust and something that might have been sprayed on your neighbor's grass. Or any other number of different toxins or pollutants. So, what's your approach when it comes to breathwork and air quality?

So, one of the first posts that went really fire viral for me online was about this topic, which was the difference between negative ions and positive ions and which ones are ideal to be breathing in. And I always keep a window open, at least cracked open, because although there may be certain things out in the air outside, if you are in a room that's just airtight and the CO2 is going to be continually rising, if you're sleeping in that air overnight, this can be extremely harmful and make you wake up with a horrible headache, or your body does not function in stale air that is full of positive ions. The ideal is negative ions, and negative ions can be found at higher altitudes, near the ocean, near the— near waterfalls. Wherever there may be water circulating, that negative ion charge is going into the air. And for that reason, showers. I love showers and I love doing breathing in the shower. I do Wim Hof breathing in the shower through my nose and mouth at the same time, gently. I'm not supervised, but I'm not doing any crazy holds. I just may be breathing deep, slow, relaxed, not panic.

Yeah, you haven't lined your shower with like used mattresses.

I should, I really should. But then we got a mold problem, so that's not good for the—

Yeah, exactly.

But yeah, the air quality is huge. And if you can get a good air filter, if you are in a place where it's not horrible air outside, keep that air cracked open. Hotels, when you're traveling, crack that window open if you can. I'm the guy that's like taking a— taking one of the knives they give us to like jimmy the window open in the hotel room that's shut out because I just cannot breathe. I feel that I can't breathe. And so it's very important. And it's interesting. I was just in Bali and they have a waste management problem where they're burning microplastics in the air just all day long. They're burning trash and they do it at certain hours of the day and you can smell it. And it's really quite bad. The way I handled that was I tried to keep my windows generally closed during those hours. I try to live near the ocean, and I also take care of my lungs in the sense that I, I want them to be clearing whatever I'm breathing in because it's unavoidable. There's microplastics in the air, there's brake dust, there's whatever in the air. So optimizing my detox pathways as well is the thing that I focus on when it comes to air quality.

Oh, that's interesting. Zac Efron is filming right now down in that area, and as a part of this film about sustainable building, building biology, environmental friendliness of our construction practices. They're doing a massive plastic and microplastic cleanup in Bali. I haven't been there, but I've heard it's just a giant plastic dump. Okay. So, this is maybe a little esoteric, I'm guessing, but we've dropped a few woo bombs already, so we might as well keep going. You told me you're trying to get 1 million people to all do synchronized breathwork at the same time. What's going on there?

Yeah, Billions Will Breathe. I am trying to get a billion people breathing in perfect sync in and out.

Wait, did you say a billion or a million?

The milestone initially is a million, but long-term, I want to get a billion because moonshots only. And, the goal here and the general understanding is that we're all connected. And when we influence ourselves and regulate ourselves, we also regulate others. Just like if you walk into a room, um, and you have a ton of energy, you might energize the whole room. If you walk in and you're kind of flat, you might flatten the room. We are connected. And when we control consciously our energy, we can control the field that connects us all. And so the mission is to, with every breath, spread unconditional love and peace together. This is my mission. It's my best guess on how to make the world a better place. It's a way for us to override the antiquated systems that are keeping us stuck and in poverty and unhealthy. And it's a way for us to reclaim our power. We are the tsunami, tsunami tidal wave of power. We're billions and billions of people. And what happens when we go inwards, control our state, control our breath, and give energy to the field? What might happen? I don't know, but I'm hoping that— I'm hoping to find out. And that's my mission. That's the, the essence of coherence is regulating the nervous system of Earth by regulating one person at a time. So, million-person meditation, break the world record is the first milestone, and then we want to get as many people as we can. Billions will breathe.

Okay. What's the logistics of that? Are people going to all be online at the same time?

So, my brother actually created the Coherence app, which is the first of its kind in the sense that you can synchronize your breath with anyone at any time, anywhere in the world. You don't need to be on Zoom. You don't need to be in person. You can be remotely synchronized with everyone. And we're doing these daily syncs for 5 minutes a day, every day. We do syncs. We had one for the spring equinox, summer solstice. We have a fall equinox coming up.

Okay. So, so like if, if my wife had the app and I had the app and we were to open it and we wanted to do breathwork together at the same pace. Is there a haptic cue like a vibration or are you watching a slider bar?

So, there's a sound, there's a haptic, and there's a visual. And you don't even need to be in the room with your wife. If you guys are traveling but you want to synchronize your breath together, you can set this thing.

Right. That's what I'm saying. I'm in whatever, I'm in England and she's home and we pull it up and it's, you know, whatever, noon her time and 8:00 PM my time, we could breathe together.

Absolutely. And you could even be broadcasting your voice to her, guiding her, talking to her. We don't have two-way communication yet, but you can broadcast your voice. And this is a way for individuals, you know, long-distance relationships, you guys can sync up. Friends, family can all sync up. Companies can sync up and regulate the entire nervous system of their remote workforce across the world every morning. And A regulated synchronized workforce is a productive workforce and a couple that's synchronizing their breath together is a couple that's in coherence. And, that's what our goal is.

Ben Greenfield: I like it. I like it. Saving money and relationships around the world. So, a lot of people will hear— people listen to a podcast, they're like, "Well, you told me I was supposed to take this supplement and then I'm supposed to do some isometric training and some blood flow restriction training." And, "Get this kettlebell and this special mask that you wear, blah, blah, blah." And then, they have a list of 100 things they're supposed to do and they get stressed out. And then, they hear us talking about breathwork and it's like, "Okay. Well, do I need to do the thing at night and then the thing in the morning and the fascia work that Nick is talking about and then do the thing in the shower?" So, for people listening, help them understand what's the bare minimum, right? So, if I want to get the benefits of breathwork, but I have a limited amount of time per week, kids, job, whatever. What's an ideal scenario for somebody where they could still be doing enough to feel good about what they're doing?

I would recommend, again, optically implementing breathwork into all your routines. So, do a couple minutes of Wim Hof-style breathing before you work out. Do a couple minutes of physiological sighs after your workouts. Just do that. Like, start to see breathwork as an active recovery workout, not this 30-minute-long meditation chore that you need to do in the mornings. Start to tactically explore and have fun with it. It's your journey, and breath is a mechanism that can take you from this automatic transmission of a car where you have drive, neutral, reverse. Most people live with drive, neutral, reverse, but when you begin to explore breathwork you become a manual where you can shift up to 5th gear. You can shift down to 3rd gear before your meal. You can shift up when you need to get some work or you need to push through a workout and start to have fun shifting up and down. If your breaths are faster, fuller, and longer on your inhales, then you're going up, uh, sorry, sympathetic and energy, heart rate's going up. If your breaths are longer, slower, smoother out, you are going parasympathetic, down in heart rate, down in body temperature. Parasympathetic branch activates. So faster inhales going up, longer exhales going down. Start to play, start to have fun. It's your journey, it's your breath. No one can tell you how to breathe, and no one is you. So get in touch with your intuition and breath and You'll have a lot of fun and you'll find a lot of benefits.

Nick Sweeney, folks. BenGreenfieldLife.com/NICKPODCAST, N-I-C-K podcast is where you can find his stuff. He hooked me up this week with 4 weeks free on that Coherence app. The code for that is BEN30. That's the one that lets you breathe in sync with people. And I'll put all that at BenGreenfieldLife.com/NICKPODCAST. Nick, you reached out to me on socials. You told me about your story. I thought it was super inspiring how, you know, you kind of went beyond the traditional physical therapy and got into the thermal stress and the breathwork and everything else to repair your body. I think you've got something unique going on. So, thanks for coming on and sharing.

Thanks, Ben. It's been an absolute pleasure.

Alright, cool, folks. Thanks for tuning in. Have an incredible week.

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