Honoring the Past, Embracing the Future | Podcast Ep. 150 | Toolbox for the Trades

Khadijah J. Head and Odari Head, you are both the current owners of Head Plumbing Sales and Service in Atlanta, Georgia. Welcome to the 150th episode of Toolbox for the Trades.

Thank you so much for having us today.

I am so psyched to talk to you guys, and thank you again for being my guest for 150. You've got an incredible story, and I cannot wait to dive into it. But before we begin, I'm going to hit y' all with some icebreakers because I love doing that. Khadijah, I'm going to ask you to go first. If you could pick up a new skill instant, what would it be and.

Why a new skill in an instant? I would have to go with the ability to say yes when I want to say yes and no when I want to say no. Let me dig a little bit into that as I say it. It sounds very easy, very transactional. I say yes when I want to say yes. I say no when I want to say no. But I want you guys to pause and really think back. Last year, last quarter, last month, last week, last day, yesterday, today. How many times did you say yes when in your heart or heart you knew it was a no? And how many times have you said no when you knew it was a fixed firm yes? And in my personal life, financial life, and business life, the ability to say yes when your heart is screaming yes, and to say no when your mind, your body, and your soul is saying it's a no, I think that's an invaluable skill set that I would love to have.

Oh, my goodness. And I think just, Odari, you just blew your brother away. He's like, wow, I never thought about it that way. Any thoughts on that, Odari, before I go into it?

Yeah, that's real eye opening if you think about it. Yeah, that's why she's who she is. And I'm the tech guy, so.

Dynamic duo.

Dynamic duo. No, I totally agree with that. I mentioned Brene Brown on the podcast all the time because I think everyone should take a moment and just listen to one of her many TED Talks. She has this concept called I forgot. I don't remember the name, but it was a resentment ring. And so whenever she was asked something she would do, she would turn the ring three times to give herself a moment to pause, and she's like. And that allowed me to say no when I really wanted to say no. And as a people pleaser myself, that's something I really resonate with. So I totally resonate with. With the answer you just gave. I think that's something that, you know, especially powerful women struggle with, for sure.

Yes. Yes. We try to compromise and sometimes make ourselves small.

Yes.

To fit in a box of other individuals.

Well, we're gonna make ourselves both very big today. Khadija and Odari's gonna be just smashed in the middle. So for anyone who is just listening to the audio, I have to say, do yourselves a favor and check out the YouTube feed where the video of this will live. We are in probably the most gorgeous studio I've ever been in recording this podcast, so you'll be able to see me, Khadijah, and Odari live and on this very comfortable couch. So just FYI, check out our YouTube feed. Odari, same icebreaker for you. If you could pick up a new skill in an instant, what would it be and why?

It's kind of hard to follow up to Khadija's answer. For me, it's simply I always wanted to learn H Vac. I think it's close relations to plumbing, and I just like the. The idea of the gauges and, you know, knowing the Freon levels and just the different metrics. I like how it's. I always just found it very interesting just how they come about sizing comfort systems and whatnot.

Yeah. Also, you could add a new service to your business that would allow you guys to diversify and increase revenue.

Yes.

You are a master plumber, correct?

Yes.

All right. That's awesome.

Yes. So I graduated from Tuskegee, the prestigious Tuskegee University, in 2001. And then right after that was I studied for my journeyman's license and got that in 01, and I took my master's three years after that.

Very nice. I could have used you yesterday. I literally was in my hotel room and I turned the tap on my sink and it was broke, and it was full, full, full water pressure. Just going into this thing. I'm like, I'm about to drown this hotel. So I could have used you yesterday. But also great to know that I am sitting next to a plumbing master. We're gonna get into this a bit. But, Khadijah, you are not on the technician side. You are not on the plumbing side. So tell me a little bit about your background and how you found yourself in. What we now know is that. Well, what I know, what now the listeners will know, is this third generation family business that you guys now run together. How did you get into the family Biz.

Absolutely. So I just want to preference it. I know enough to be dangerous, so I know enough not to get myself in a bind, but enough to make the customer feel very comfortable.

So you could have fixed my sink yesterday?

Probably. I could have made the right phone call to get your sink fixed.

Amazing. Amazing. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to cut you off. No worries.

No worries. Yeah. So my journey is similar but very different to Odari. And I think that really speaks to our relationship now, especially growing up in a family of the trade where you have siblings. Odari and I are two years apart. Grew up in the same household. He was my very first friend, someone who has known me since day one. But our path to today, they're very different. So I am a glorified athlete. So what I mean by that is basketball has always been my center. I played in the front yard with the guys. I was the only girl growing up in the neighborhood. But my brother, you know, he always made sure I got picked for a team. And then eventually, like when I got good, I made sure that when I was picked for the team that, you know, I could carry my load. So I played high school basketball. I went on to play Division 1 basketball at Murray State. And I want to say that I'm still the all time assist record holder at Murray State University.

Wow.

I don't mean to pat myself on the back, but I'm literally patting myself on the back again.

Watch the video.

Yes, please, watch the video. And from there, I went on to get my master's degree in Slippery rock. University is 45 minutes north of Pittsburgh. And from there, like, I really jumped into my career as a professional Coach. Coached Division 1 basketball for 15 years. University of Arkansas, Middle Tennessee State University, University of Pittsburgh, and last but not least, Kennesaw State University. And throughout that entire journey, I unknowingly was wearing a superhero cape of his plumbing. So very proud of our last name because of the honor that stands behind it and, you know, just failing forward fast. It was always basketball, basketball. And however I could contribute to the business, I did. And whether that was through social media or when I came back home doing different engagements, but I always was like this outside member of the business. And I watch my brother just really blossom into becoming a plumber. And never in a million years would I guess that I am disinvolved in the business. But I will say that unequivocally, it is the best decision I ever made. I wish I would have done it 10 years sooner, but I also understand, like, I had to mature and grow into this version of myself. So as I walk alongside Odari throughout this journey, that we step accordingly, we lead accordingly, and we do everything that our grandparents and our parents did to start this business. And as we prepare the next generation to lead this business, that we're carrying the torch proudly.

Amazing. And I'm so excited to have you on because of your coaching background. I think you're gonna bring a lot of that insight into today's episode. Just for a little background information for our listeners, I spoke with Khadija on the phone, and I was like, I gotta talk to you in person. Cause this background is so fascinating to me and Odari, you too. I mean, 2001, you've been working as a plumber, a journeyman, a master for over two decades now. So you know what you're doing.

Yeah.

Before we get into kind of how the business operates on the day to day level, I would love to know, how did Heads Plumbing start?

You want to take that?

So I will give my version of how Hedge Plumbing get started again. Odari and I have very different versions because I was always an outsider. Our parents always tell a story. It was a. It was one Christmas, we were younger. Our dad got a plumbing call. Our mom was at work, and so we were under someone's house in a crawl space on Christmas day with our parents. Well, with our. With our father, I don't remember that, but I fully believe them in that fact. So the journey of Hess Plumbing. Our father, he worked for another company for 15 years, and then he came into work one day and the chains were on the gate. They said, there's no work. And our parents, you know, it was their aha moment. I think it was a good pivot point for them. It is easy to be an employee. You can go home at night. When you clock out, you clock out. But when you take on the burden of entrepreneurship, it's something that you carry morning, noon, and night and even throughout your dream. So it's always with you. And they decided that the next place that closed down, they'll be the first to know it. 1981. So in the middle of a recession, we are in the heart of the south in Atlanta, Georgia. So it's a lot of tasks and burden to take on our kids. Our parents are baby boomers. They grew up throughout the civil rights movement. And to really know that they manifested and created something out of nothing, it is truly empowering. So to me, that is my version of how Heads Plumbing again, I'll allow my brother Odari.

Yes, it's pretty much the same thing. My dad used to work for Safety Railway and like Khadijah said, one morning he went into work and pulled up and it was changed on the gate and it kind of put you in the time frame of when the recession happened, 2000 and that you know, these large corporations was going out of business at the time Safety Railway was a, it was like Norfolk Southern. It was a pretty big railroad company. And to see something like that shut down and you know you just had. At the time I was three, Khadijah was one. So you got two small children that you got to take care of and got to figure out how you go put food on the table. So he went to what he naturally knew how to do because my grand, our grandfather was also into the trades. He was, he was grandfathered into the plumbing trades. So he would go out and do like hand to man work for actually for H.J. russell. So in Alice Summerhill. So he would go out and do work for him and that's how my dad learned how to do plumbing. So when the railroad company shut down, he naturally just went out and bought him a work service truck and went out. We started, we was walking around, we used to walk around different neighborhoods just passing out leafless. Just some, some weeks we'll just, that's all we'll do like it would. So then sometimes it gets so bad where he'll be looking into help want it as in the newspaper. But you know, we just, he just stayed headstrong motivated and we just kept pushing and you know, you slowly start to see the progress. I wouldn't have thought in a million years that it'll be where it's at today.

Headstrong. That has to be something that you guys are thinking about for your new tagline.

Absolutely.

Okay, good. We're going to talk about the rebranding in a second. And Khadija, I love that you talked about the difference between working a job and then being an entrepreneur gives and takes to it. Right. Because when you work as a just a service tech somewhere, which is totally fine, you work your 9 to 5 or your 9 to 9 or whatever and you go home, you don't have to worry about anything. But when you're an entrepreneur, you have all of this shouldering your responsibility. But on the other hand, like what Odari said, you are the first one to know if stuff is going south or if things are going out of business and you have more Autonomy to change the direction of the business. So I think just in your both answers, that was such a great summary of what we talk about here on Toolbox is like, the risk of entrepreneurism, and then what happens, what you're allowed to do when you take that risk and when you go into it. So thank you for that.

Absolutely.

You mentioned that your grandfather was grandfathered into the trade. So, Khadijah, can you tell me a bit about that?

Absolutely. So, again, our parents, they grew up in the civil rights era here in Atlanta, Georgia, and it was a huge stigma about being African American in the South. It was a time in American history where there were things that our parents could and could not do, our grandparents had to do or could not do. And the fact that my brother is a master plumber, the fact that our father is a master plumber, and the fact that our grandfather, he had the skill set, the knowledge and the experience to have that same honor and to know that when he went to say, hey, I'm qualified, matter of fact, I am overqualified. Hand me the piece of paper. I'll fill it out. Give me the test. I will show improve. And for my grandfather to literally fill out the application, do every single step that he needed to do, only to walk away and not even make it out of the door and see his application torn up. So in the timeline of his plumbing, he will always be a master plumber. A piece of paper is great. It shows to the outside world that you're qualified. But the skill set that both our grandfather and our grandmother possessed was the core foundation. Our grandmother, she was the first voice of the company. Our grandfather, despite his application to sit for the test, literally to be torn up in his face, and in spite of, we are able to sit before you guys today. It is, you know, it is something that we stand proud on.

Yeah. I mean, and also, you're in Atlanta, Georgia. You know, I've been telling your story to a lot of my friends and family. I'm going to Atlanta. I'm talking to Khadijah and Odari about this really incredible story of their family business. And I tell them the story about your grandfather and how he got the master plumber test torn up in his face. And everyone's like, but isn't Atlanta like a primarily black city? Like, isn't that the way it is? And I just appreciate that you're talking about this because so many people wouldn't assume that that was an issue that he went through. But you're telling me that in 1981, when your father and grandfather started this business, your grandfather technically was not a master plumber because he was not allowed into the trade.

Absolutely. Absolutely. And the fact that, you know, when we look at our clientele, Odari gets to go in the coolest place. So when the king birth home, when they have a plumbing issue, they dial our number. 44696, 3175. When Zoo Atlanta has an issue, they dial our number. The video commentary that Odari sends me, I'm like, can I post it to social media? He's like, nah, you can't do that. But it's amazing to see the level of access that we have.

Really, it's really incredible. I actually did a bit of research, which, you know, I'm not a researcher, so everyone take this. As you know, I looked on the Internet and I verified it with several sources, but According to the U.S. bureau of Labor Statistics, only 8% of plumbers are black and only 2.5% of plumbers nationwide are women. So it's kind of incredible that I am sitting here with you two and about to talk about how awesome your company is. Absolutely. Also, Khadijah, first time anyone's ever dropped their business number on the podcast. So thank you for that toolbox. For the trades first.

Seize the moment.

So I want to get into the company rebrand because that's a really big foundation of the story I want to tell today. But before we do, tell me a little bit about the kind of customers you guys serve. So I know when Khadijah told me about your business, Odari, she said that we're your plumber's plumber. So tell me a little bit about the type of work that you guys do.

We do about 90% service and repair, and most of that 90%, about 85% of is residential. The rest is commercial. But that's our niche. Service and repair, we don't do, we don't do any new construction. If we do do some new construction, it's going to be for people that are trying to finish out their basement. Another thing that we do, we do a lot of work for non profits in the area. House Proud Atlanta, Meals on Wheels and Atlanta Habitat. And I really like doing work with them because we actually get to work in the community that we grew up in. So it's always I find pride in giving our community the quality of service that they deserve. So that's one of the real highlights of, of being an owner, being able to work with these non profits.

That's super cool. Anything you want to add, Khadija?

Yes. So my brother is. He undersells himself. So I am going to over deliver on his skill sets and talents. Again, my knowledge of the actual work of plumbing is very, very limited. I changed out the handle on my toilet in the middle of COVID and you could not tell me anything. I was ready to sit for the master plumber test myself.

Can I say I want to. If you could like take your confidence and enthusiasm and like bottle it, you'd become a billionaire. I would buy it.

She's like this every day. Every day. Seven o' clock in the morning.

Okay.

Every day.

Every day. Every day it's like this.

Yeah, it's a great. With a yin and yang is perfect. And I think that's what makes it work for us. But like, when I think about. All right, so what is a plumber? What is a master plumber? What is a plumbing business like? I hear my brother engage with our technicians. And I know coaching, I don't know plumbing, but I know greatness when I see it. And I see greatness when my brother works. Whether he's in the field or, you know, he's sitting behind the desk and his technicians call him. He's like, oh, just FaceTime. And he's like, all right, just move the camera. Okay, you see that little button at the bottom? Just click that. And it's like something that they have struggled with for 20 minutes. He can pop on FaceTime. And it's like, okay, what else do you have? Or the incoming phone calls we get from customers. We get those phone calls where our customer said, I had a plumber out.

To my home plumber in air quotes.

Watch the YouTube episode well Worth it. But like our customers, they. Any customer, let me preface it. Any customer, you don't know you had a bad plumber until you get a good plumber. Because it's something where you live with. You call with a problem, problems seemingly fixed, and you don't know until it. It reoccurs in the worst moment possible. And I've seen my brother literally play superhero. Whether it's in the office, whether it's with the dispatch board, whether it's in the field, he always has an alternative. He makes a way when to the novice, it seems like there is no way. So when I think of a plumber, you know, I hold my brother and my father to the highest level. To me, they are the master plumbers. They're not just master plumbers. Because anyone can sit for a test. It's your ability to apply that skill set in the real world when all of the variables are against you.

Wow. It's very different than what Odari said.

This is why she's divorced.

Oh. Actually, I just want to make sure we clarify that. So you started the company. This company was started with your dad and your father's father, and then your mother and your mother's mother. Right. Your mother's mother was the original voice of the company.

Absolutely, yes.

So she was the one who was picking up the phone. She was the one that was wooing.

The customers, beeping our dad on his beeper. And then when we got cell phones, you know, the big cell phones he had in his car. Like Zach Morris from Saved by the Bell.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Eventually the Nextel. Remember Nextel?

Absolutely. All of that.

All right. And so I think we've kind of made it clear. But just in case, Odari, you handle the field, and Khadijah, you handle the office.

Correct.

Is that basically the division of labor?

Yes.

Yes.

But you do both are essentially co owners in the business?

Yes.

All right, fantastic. Well, co owners, you've got a really big job ahead of you. You're in the process of rebranding. So tell me the story about how you decided, you know, it's time for us to rebrand. You guys have been successful up until this point. And actually, can you tell me a little bit before we even get into the logo, can you tell me a little bit about how the company's grown since your parents started it in 1981 and where it is now in 2023?

Of course. So in 81, we was, of course, we was in the house working out of the basement. And I think around 2008, we purchased a location, which was the first which where we're currently at now. At the time, it was just me and my father and one helper. Now we're up to eight trucks. We got office there. We started off with just my grandmother answered the phone. Now we have three office personnel. We have grown from, I think when I first started doing them, I think we might have been doing maybe 500,000 a year. Now we're over 2 million. So. And we're constantly trying to improve and grow. And service Titan has played a big part in helping us grow. We've also added septic to our list of services. We started doing, offering accepted service about three years ago. We got more involved into drain cleaning solution, trenchless technology. Just trying to offer our customers a different variety of plumbing solutions.

Very Cool. Very awesome. So you guys have grown, right? 500,000 to now you're 2 million. You're adding new services. The two of you have been work. Khadijah, you joined the business three years ago, right?

Yes. In 2021.

In 2021. Okay, so almost three years. So why now? Why change the logo now? It's been the logo since 1981. Why change it now?

I think you evolve and grow or you become a dinosaur. Those are the only two options. Our dad says when people complain about growing older, they say, he always says, well, you got two choices. You can grow old or die as a baby. Those are your only two options. And in business, it's the exact same thing. You can stay as you are who you are and be comfortable in that, or you could aspire for more. And when you look at the major brands, everyone does an iteration. The Nikes, McDonald's, Tesla's. Yes, we want to rebrand, and we didn't want to limit it just to our logo, even though the logo is a very important piece of the puzzle. I give you the analogy. If Tesla, I have a Tesla. Love it. Great car company. If Tesla came out with a phone, we probably have an idea of what that phone will look like. But if Hyatt came out with a car, you probably would have no idea what a Hyatt car will look like. Because Tesla has a brand. And it's important for us to really establish a brand in addition to leveling up our logo. Because for so many years, our logo was a mask. It was something that our father hand drew. It was a black and white stencil, very, just like generic safe. A plumber turning a wrench, pipe wrench. See, not a plumber, plumber. And it evolved into, now, all right, let's add some color to it. And you don't think much about your logo or the aesthetics of it. So, you know, logo comes back, oh, cool. Same outline. It has color in it. And then America goes through 2020, 2021, and very conscious of everything that goes around. And we would get a lot of feedback like, you guys are a black owned company, but your truck does not say you're a black owned company. And the reason behind that is again, our parents building and growing the company. We didn't want people to come to us because we're a black owned company. We wanted people to come to us because they wanted quality, professional plumbing services. And then we were also overcoming and tackling that stigma of like what a quality plumber looks like. And that was not Us for no fault of our own.

Well, I just said it. 8% of plumbers right now are black.

Absolutely.

It's majority non black plumbers.

Absolutely.

And your logo, Odari's. The old logo. Odari's wearing it now. It's when they came back in color. It's a white. It's a white plumber. Yeah. Which goes back to what you were saying with the mask. So I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt.

No, and I appreciate you adding that insight because I think that's a very important part of the narrative is that we make things in our name, image and likeness. And I'm sure the person that did it out of no fault of their own, they did it in their name, image and likeness. And now where we stand to know that we are Georgia's oldest black owned plumbing company. And I'm going to challenge the audience again, watch the YouTube video, because I'm literally pointing at the camera. This camera's on me. I would venture to say that we are the oldest black owned plumbing company in the southeast region and from the east coast to the west coast. I challenge you to come forward. If 1981, if you can beat 1981, we will gladly, you know, walk hand in hand with you. But I firmly stand proud that Hedge Plumbing Sales and Service Inc. Is Georgia's oldest black owned plumbing company. And we stand with that proudly. Yes, people come to us because now they Google black plumbing companies and we are the top of the board. When they Google plumbers near me, we're top of the board. But the most important way and the reason people come to us is they understand our body of work. We just happen to be black.

Yeah. But it's important though, because when we first spoke, Khadijah, you told me how the logo was a mask. It was intentional. Because 1981, not that far away from the civil rights movement. And I can imagine it must have been really scary for your dad and your grandfather, your mom and your grandmother to venture out and start this business on your own, knowing that even though you're in Atlanta, even though you're in Georgia, there's, You're still potentially going to hit up some stigma and people may not hire you if they think that you're a black owned business. Yeah, right.

And our, our parents tell us those stories. It's not just, you know, maybe that was the fact. It was their reality. It was people getting in the yellow pages, seeing our number, calling us, and the communication was just audio.

Yeah.

And you hear the Confidence, you hear the intelligence, you hear like, I'm talking to knowledgeable individuals that can perform the task. And when you show up on the job site and everything changes. So in a sense, our parents always carried the level of professionalism. Like when we were on a job site, we knew we had to show and improve. And I'll let Odari kind of share some stories because he was actually in the field experiencing those things, you know, even into the 2000 early 2000s.

Yes. Yeah. When we show up to job sites, my dad used to tell stories about when he was bidding on the first city hall. And this was when they first started requiring minority participation. So him and the guy, they went through the bidding process and long story short, they didn't get to bid. So my dad found another contract, I want to say it was up in Cub, and he told the guy he was bidding with, he was like, I found this other project that we could potentially bid on. And the contractor said, well, it has to be strictly minority participation contract, meaning that if it don't require me to use African American for the services, then I don't need to. So it.

That was not interested in the quality of your dad's work and whether he can put the most bid. It's. He basically said, unless I have to, I'm not going to use you.

The only reason he was using us to be at that city hall contract was because the city required minority participation.

You had to have a certain percentage and your bid was more favorable if you had a black owned company, a minority owned company in a partnership with you. But if that was not a base requirement, I don't need you. Thanks for no thanks.

Thanks for no thanks.

I really appreciate you bringing this story to Toolbox for the trades. I think this is stuff that people need to be hearing about and I think it's part of your story, which goes back into the rebrand and why you guys are choosing to shape this logo. I want to keep on that thread, but I want to go on a little tangent.

Okay.

You know, one of the biggest issues that I talk about, it comes up in every episode, is this not being able to find technicians. So much, I think of representation is because if you don't see people who look like you in the field, you're not going to think that field is for you.

Right.

So let's talk about the fact that there's very little minority, black, specifically representation in the trades. And this is a whole population of people that, because they don't see examples, they have not seen examples. Of that they don't even think about it as a way of, hey, maybe I could do this. So I think it's so important to tell these stories and to talk about, you know, the prior stigmas that black people and African Americans have gone through when it comes to the trade business, especially as it pertains to 2023. Oh no, we can't find good text.

Right? Right, Absolutely. Yeah, that has definitely been an issue for myself. You know, the only reason I got into plumbing is because of my dad and grandfather. And most, about 90% of the guys that we interview is, is because of their dad, their uncle. So like you say, if, if you don't see anyone that you know that's in this field, you know nothing about it, folks. We used to joke that when people think about plumbers, they think about, you know, the ones you see on TV with the crack showing and they think it's just truly unstopping toilet. It's not a sexy industry. It's, it's like.

But it keeps us healthy and safe, you know, no big deal. One of like the primary things that makes a first world country. Indoor plumbing.

Yeah. You know, when I was growing up it was, you know, doctors, lawyers, business owner. You know, the plumbers and skilled trade was looked at as janitorial, kind of low grade type services. But once you really get into it and I had my sons working with me.

Oh yeah? How old is he?

I have two. They are they 15 and 17.

Okay, cool.

And that was one of the most insane enjoyable moments that I've had in doing this. But I say that to say that now we have like iPads and you know, that type of technology and they're, they're seeing how cool plumbing can be. So I think that if, if we start to show that side of the skill trades then it can attract the younger generation because that's all they know is phones or tablets and you know, so if you could show them that, hey, you could use your tablet to look inside a sewer line and see where the broken pipe is, see what's causing the stoppages and things of that nature, I think it will invite a younger audience into the trade because it is getting extremely hard to find quality people.

And I'm, I'm a. You asked earlier, like, how am I able to leverage my coaching. Yeah, background. And so I use that in the hiring and interviewing process because plumbing is a skill set so individuals can go to any company and become a plumber. As we mentioned, there's a shortage of labor. So you Know it's pick of the litter. And so when we vet individuals to come join our plumbing family is not so much about what you're able to do, but it's more about your why. So very untraditional. The way I vet plumbers, I always. So I send them a text message first. Go on. Indeed. Like everyone else, get the resume. Yes, you got a plumber, you can do the work. But the first question I want to know before we even like go into the conversation is what has to happen in your professional and your personal life, like, to make you have a good day? Because like, if you can know someone's why you're able to navigate when things are going bad. And that's directly related to my coaching background. It is something that is talent based where on the college level everyone pretty much has the same resources. So when kids say, yes, I want to go to a school, they're actually saying, yes, I believe that you can help me achieve my dreams. And it's the same thing with plumbers. It's a male dominated field and as a female I know that from a male's perspective. It's rare that males are asked like, are you okay? How are you doing? And then just intentfully listening to their answer, you get the I'm fine. Yeah, I'm fine. And like, keep going. But they have such a heavy burden because everyone depends on them in their life and no one really cares how they're doing. It is show up, perform, no emotions, no feedback. Long as you are a provider where my thing is like, if a plumber is just driven by the money, like, I appreciate you being transparent with that, but it's not going to work for us because you're going to be with his plumbing until someone offers you a dollar more. And when someone offers you that dollar more, you're going to go. And I am a true gatekeeper because I truly take pride in the individuals that have already said yes to the vision of heads plumbing. So we don't just invite anyone to join our plumbing family. It's an honor and a privilege to wear our logo, to walk around the community in our van to provide plumbing services. And so I feel like if I treat our current team with the utmost level of respect by like, I'm not just going to bring anyone in just because they can do the skill set.

Yep.

Like, you have to have, you have to have the right fabric, the right makeup because everything is not going to be great. The sun is not going to always shine. Sometimes it's going to be cloudy. You know, sometimes you're in the eye of or of the tornado or the hurricane, and you're like, oh, everything's fine. And then that eye passes over you and you're like, oh, my gosh. And so, like, you got to hire for the oh, my gosh.

Yeah.

Moments. We want to help everyone at our company achieve their dream because we understand, like, if they can achieve their dream, like, our dreams intrinsically are going to happen.

Yes. And can I just say, you're doing such. You guys are doing such a great job of, like, hitting on themes that I talk about on the show all the time, which is, you know, with this skilled labor issue, there are so few folks out there who have the plumbing experience where you can just plug them into the field and let them go. What I hear overwhelmingly, too, is that those folks may have bad habits that they inherited from other businesses. And so what a lot of smart entrepreneurs I'm hearing are doing is they're hiring for those soft skills. They're hiring for the stuff you can't teach because you can teach. Whatever you can teach plumbing you learned at Odari. Your sons are learning it. And I think that's so brilliant to think about the why and to see if they're aligned with the overall vision of the company. Without giving too much away, I promise we're going to go back to the logo and branding. Don't worry. I remembered, without going too much into it, like, what are some things that you look for when you're hiring without, like, giving away any secrets?

No, no, no.

That being said, if someone watched up to 40 minutes of this episode and they're interviewing you tomorrow, I think they probably are a good fit.

Yes. So if you have someone that depends on you and you're able to acknowledge that. So a lot of people, they'll say, like, the guys that really piqued my interest is they talk about spending time with their family, work, life, balance, because that helps me understand that feast or famine, like, they're going to understand that, you know, when it's feast, I'm out here, I am going to provide this service to the utmost ability. And when it's, you know, when it's famine, like, I get to spend time with my family. And if a technician has a just a foundation of family orientation, that helps me understand that they possess the skill set of those soft skills that convert a potential customer into a reoccurring lifelong customer, because they're able to have that emotional intelligence to not only like, yeah, I could fix your problem, but have the awareness to understand that whenever I walk into someone's home, like, I'm catching them at a really bad time for them because they have a plumbing issue that YouTube could not solve. So they need us.

Yes. Trust me, I've had a plumbing issue in my recent history, and YouTube could not solve it. I was very distressed. All great things to think about. So let's circle back to logo and story. I'm sorry. Let's circle back to logo and the rebrand. So you're working with Lemon Seed Marketing. My pals over there, Crystal. So we talked about the logo that your family started with. That was a mask. What are you thinking of now as you're looking towards a rebrand?

I'm open to any and everything. I'm just a blank slate, so I'm not putting any restrictions. I'm. I'm gonna sit back and wait to see what comes about. I have gotten over the fat of being willing to change. You know, change is good, you go first type deal. So that's my perspective on it.

And for me, it's a delicate balance of honoring the past, but also embracing the future. So very excited about what Lemon Seed is going to bring to our company. And Jackie, it's because of you that we're in this position. Odari sent me the episode about Lemon Seed, and it was really a great aha moment for us. And I think that's something that as entrepreneurs, like, you have to be a constant learner of your trade and you have to utilize the resources that you have. And, like, you don't know you have an issue or you don't know you need to ask a question until you are faced with an opportunity. And I feel like, like this is a opportunity for us to help everyone know that heads Plumbing Sales and Service Inc. We are the largest small business that you've never heard of. And as we, like, close out 2023, like, we really stand firm on being Georgia's oldest black owned plumbing company and, like, really catapulting into 2024 and embracing this third generation of Odari and I and understanding that the fourth generation, Cam and Jay, like, they're truly watching our footsteps and the actions that we take today of, like, honoring the past and really embracing the future, it's those things. It's those X factors that you can't plan for. But when you walk into that moment, you know, like, okay, this is so comfortable. Yeah.

Yeah. And just little shout out. Crystal McWilliams. Crystal Williams. She's Crystal Williams from McWilliams she's episode 48, if anyone wants to listen. She's an absolute delight. I'm so happy you discovered her through Toolbox. So. And actually, this was a question I was gonna say for later. So fourth generation. We are planning. We planning for your children to take on the helm eventually. Odari.

Yes, they are. My oldest is interested in joining the business, and it's funny, he just started at McEachern High School, and I saw that they're offering trade classes there.

Oh, wow.

And I was so excited and ecstatic for them because they offer plumbing, electrical, and H vac. And I was. Cause I've always said, like, they need to bring the trays into the high school level. And I was just.

Again, they used to be. And then they got.

Yes. When I was in school, we had. And it was around that time that they start pushing college prep. Everyone, you know, go to college. But I really think. I'm really glad to see that they're starting to bring the trades back into the high school.

I am, too. That is what I'm talking about. With so many owners about talking with high schools. Like, you've got to bring these back because we're facing a giant labor shortage. Are in a labor shortage. That's. What's the name of that high school?

McItra.

McItra.

McItra High School.

Okay, guys, take it. There you go. Hold on. Let me take. Let me collect my thoughts. McWilliams. That was my thing. Okay, question for you guys. You guys are in the middle of a rebrand. You're in the middle of changing the look and feel of your business. I know it's got to be scary. What advice would you give yourselves, you know, several months ago, when you first started this journey?

Don't be afraid to start. Change is okay. Change is warranted. Change is granted. And like Odari mentioned, like, you have to go in with a open mind, open perspective, because you, like, you never know the small, like, tweak that is going to change everything I think about. To the analogy, I like to use the formation of the Grand Canyon. If you want to know the power of water, take a look at the Grand Canyon carved by water just like, one drop and the magnitude of a consistent one drop, the change that it creates. So, like, with this rebrand, again, like, I can't overstate honoring the past and embracing the future. It's going to be a great pivot point for us, especially, like, with Cam and Jay. And, like, I consider myself, you know, I'm third Generation by, like, the date on my driver's license. But I'm more akin to Cam and Jay.

Because you've started recently.

Yes, I've started recently. Like, Cam and Jay and I, like, we all started this journey, like, truly together.

Yes. Yeah.

That's so cool. Any words of advice for other folks who are thinking about a rebrand while you guys are in it? I'll have to ask you when you're. When it's done.

Yeah, just. Just be willing to take that leap. Know that, like I say, change is good. It doesn't mean that you were doing anything wrong in the past. So don't feel bad or don't feel like you, you know, came up short or sold yourself short or you. I mean, your previous action helped you to get to where you're at today and being just, like I say, just being open and willing. So I don't have any restraints or anything. I know Crystal and her team would do an excellent job. So I'm. I'm Wayne. I've seen some of the rebrands that they've done, and I'm like, I wouldn't. Never thought of that.

That's a good answer. I like you guys. I mean, I don't know if you guys were nervous before this interview. I just gotta tell you, you're knocking it out of the park. I've got a few more questions for you, and then I'm gonna let you go. I really want to know what's the biggest challenge the two of you have overcome as a team and how you managed it?

For me, I've always known Odari as my brother. I've never knew the business side. And so I think everyone has two people that live inside of them. You have your personal self, and then you have your work self. A lot of times, your work environment, they don't know that personal side of you. And then also like your.

Fortunately for my colleagues, they know both sides.

Yeah, they don't like. They blend at the level you allow it to be. To blend, because you filter out your personal life once your alarm goes off and you wake up in the morning to start your business day. Who you are. If you're a traditional Monday through Friday person, rarely does your Saturday and Sunday creep into, like, your Monday through Friday. And our dynamic is we are. We always intertwine. I was someone that was always away from the family, so I left in 99 when I graduated high school, and I didn't return to Georgia until 2016. So for the great majority of my adult life, like, My family knew the basketball version of me, and then when I came back, they're like, you can speak really well. And I'm like, what are you guys talking about? But it's parts of me that I'm allowed to learn about Odari and to see him as a father, to see him as a owner, to see him as the master plumber. So I'm learning all these intricate, like, details of him. It's like when you look at a Picasso or just, like, a. From far away, it's just like, a bunch of, like, it's beautiful. And, like, when you get close up to it, like, you see, like, all these intricate dots that make up this magnificent masterpiece. And that's what I'm allowed to see with Odari. And then, like, to understand our dynamics that, like, we can respectfully disagree and it's okay. Like, there's no animosity. There are no awkward silences. And you don't know how that's going to be because, like, as siblings, like, you don't really deal with issues that not only affect you, but, like, affect our employees. And we can have those tough conversations, those critical conversations, because of the level of respect.

Yes.

We have with each other.

My. My biggest thing is the labor shortages. Building a workforce. Like you say, if. If they have those soft skills, I could teach them the plumbing side. So we've. We've had to build, and I think we have a excellent team right now. So we've build, and I'm able to coach the guys, and especially with technology FaceTime, you know, it's much easier to actually go out and be able to train the guys with the implementation of service. I'm able to see. Let's send me a picture of the water heater once you finish installing. Let me see what you. The setup. And I'm able to see and make sure that we're able to see that the guys are properly installing the fit just to code. But, yeah, that's the. That's the biggest thing that we've had to overcome.

It's a labor shortage. Yeah. I mean, you are not alone there. You are not alone. But I'm so happy that you're leveraging the technology in a way that's making that training easier and making it, you know, just more efficient for you. Are you in the field still, or are you.

Yes, I still go out in the field. I find pleasure. It's funny. My phone rings all the time, and yesterday I was. We was re. Piping the house. I was in the crawl space. And I just had my music playing and I might have been about three hours in. I was like, my phone ain't wrong. I said. I started getting this awkward feeling. Then I looked and I saw I didn't have any service, so I said so. But it was. It's peaceful. Doing plumbing is not. I don't look at it as a job. It's. It's relaxing for me.

Yeah.

So I really enjoy what I do.

Yeah. Do you think you'll ever want to get out of the field? Totally not.

I think it keep me young and viable. Yeah, I was. I will definitely say I will pull back a lot. I want to get in more of just going out, maybe doing estimates and going out for our large job. You know, we got bit. We got projects going on at up the street at Zoo Atlanta. I like to sit in. I also like to see the new technology out in the field, like actually doing the work.

Yeah. You know, as I've done, I've done. This is 150 episodes. And I can't thank you guys enough for giving me such a fantastic interview. When I first started this show, you know, service titan partners with a ton of best practices groups like nexstar, bdr, Praxis. And there's always this focus, like, you got to get out of the truck, you got to stop working on. You got to stop working in the business. You got to work on the business. And I think there's truth to that. But I also think I'm really happy for your perspective, Odari, because I think you can also make that decision for you. I always think about an episode I had with Angie Snow years ago, who's one of our principal industry advisors and who also runs a H Vac company in Orem, Utah, Western Heating and Air. And she talked about, like, this is where I want to stay. This may have changed, so I'm not putting words in your mouth, but I think it's very, very interesting to, like, know what levels you want to grow to. There's titans in this industry. We know that. I've had them on the show that have run multimillion dollar businesses, hundreds of millions of dollars in H Vac and plumbing. But I think it's also really good to know that you're an entrepreneur. This is your business. You get to choose what you do on the day to day.

Right.

So I think that's great.

Yes, yes, yes.

Is there anything else either of you want to talk about that we haven't gotten the chance to.

I just want to, like, really nail down on the fact for other like kids of entrepreneurs, whether it was your parents or like you have another generation behind you as a entrepreneur. With our parents, they always allowed it to be a option to join the family business. It was never like you are obligated to carry this torch. Our parents, our mom, she was a W2 employee while helping to grow the family business where she got her. She graduated from college, first person in the family to graduate from college. She went on to get her master's degree in a profession of social work where our father went through the job corps route. So Odari and I, we grew up in a generation where like you went to college. And now we're in a space as a company and as a culture where like, you're not obligated to go to college, college is a option, but also like following in your parents footsteps is an option. So to the parents, I want to say, never pressure your kids to join your business. Join what you created. Always make it an option. And as you know, kids of entrepreneurs, like, I really want to thank our parents.

Yes.

For everything they've ever done for us. Plumbing and heads plumbing in particular has allowed us to have amazing birthdays, tremendous Christmases, and the most fantastic vacations. This was something that literally did not exist in 1980. It was non existent. And to see the heights that we are today and to know that our parents had the courage to take a chance on themselves and to say, why not us? We're capable, we're possible. So mom and dad, I know you guys are watching. We tell you we love you, we tell you we're thankful, but this is our way to share it with the world. And then also Jackie and like, with your share of knowledge, you've allowed our business to grow by like really introducing us to entrepreneurs that they may be 10 steps ahead of us, they might be five steps ahead of us, they might be side by side, but people that like, we never knew existed. Like, we think our problems are specific to heads plumbing.

Yes.

But it's so reassuring to like truly find a kinship in the tray. And it's because of your platform.

Yes.

Thank you. Thank you guys so much. Yes, I really appreciate it. That warms my heart. Odari, any last words?

Like my sister said, our parents really showed us they were intricate in our lifestyle and how we grew up. I really appreciate every, all the knowledge and basically everything that they taught us, not only business wise, but just in life in general. You know, be responsible, be accountable for what you do. Just really opening up our eyes. And being great role models for myself and Khadijah.

Amazing. Khadija Odari, thank you so much for being guests on Toolbox for the trades.