Normalizing Mental Health in the Construction Industry | Podcast Ep. 174 | Toolbox for the Trades

Hello, contractors, and welcome to Toolbox for the Trades. Today I am chatting with Raffi Elchemas and Jen Massie. Raffi is from the MCAA and Jen is from the ua. And we are talking about a topic that is near and dear to my heart, which is mental health awareness and suicide prevention in the trades. This is an incredible, incredible episode, and I hope you find it as informative and moving as I did. Raffi and Jen, I am so excited for you to be joining me today. We are going to talk about a topic that is near and dear to my heart. We're going to about mental health awareness and suicide prevention in the trades to kick off the month of May. I'm going to get to my icebreaker in a second, but before I do, I would love for you guys to tell us your full name and your title. Rafi, why don't you go first?

Good morning, Jackie, and thank you for having us on the podcast. My name is Rafael Shamas. I'm the executive director for safety, health and Risk management at the Mechanical Contractors association of America, the mca.

Amazing. Jen, what about you?

Jen Massey. And I'm the safety, health and environmental administrator for the United Association.

Okay, so we've got the UA and MCA in the house here to talk about this topic that is so important. And we're going to get into it in a second, but to kind of. This is going to be a heavy topic. Right? So let's go into a fun icebreaker just to familiarize the audience with you. I had the pleasure of joining you two for dinner last night, where I got to discover that you both share a love of wrestling. So I would love to know, if you were a professional wrestler, what would your entrance song be? And, Jen, why don't you start first?

Oh, goodness. This is one of my favorite questions. So this is nostalgic for me. And the theme would be, I am a real American from Hulk Hogan, and I wouldn't change anything. He's a bucket list wrestler of mine that I want to meet. It's one of those things. So I wouldn't change anything. That would be the theme. That's the perfect combination to me.

That is incredible. Rafi, what about you?

Yeah, so I'm a 90s wrestling fan, and I think when my friends listen to this podcast, if I said anything but what I'm gonna say, they'd call me out on it. So think back to the Stone Cold Steve Austin. You walk into the room, the glass shatters and you hear the da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, that's what I hear in my head when I walked into the studio today.

Fantastic. I absolutely love that. And it is delight to me that I'm here talking with two safety professionals that have a Prof. Love of wrestling, which seems like it doesn't go hand in hand with safety, but I think that's wonderful. Thanks for sharing. We always ask on this show, how did you get into the trades? And you guys are coming a little bit different here. Normally I speak with owners, operators in the industry, folks who work at shops directly, but you guys work at MCA and ua, and you kind of both have this interesting way that you came into this field. So, Rafi, why don't you start? How did you get into the trade? Specifically, how did you find yourself in the position you're in today?

Thanks, Jackie. Yeah. So I've got my short answer and it's very quick, but I'm going to give you my very long answer to this question.

Right. We've got so many hours here in the recording studio, so we can do it.

So let's start with the Occupational Safety and Health Administration, OSHA. They were founded in 1970. And if you can imagine, before 1970, that was only like 50 years ago. Before 1970, safety was not more important than productivity. And when it came to building this country. So in the early 1900s, people estimated about one death on a job site per million dollars of value that that project would cost. So, yeah, think about that for a minute.

Oh, my gosh. So on a PNL like.

Correct. So if the project was going to cost 30 million to build, they estimated that they were going to lose 30 lives building that project. So on a project just down the street here, the Golden Gate Bridge in San Francisco, it was built in 1933. At that time, the bridge was going to cost 30, 35 million dollars to build. And they estimated they were going to lose 35 lives building that bridge. The chief architect of that project was a guy named Joseph Strauss. And when he sat down in that meeting, he said, that is not going to happen on my project. So he put in to plan five or so big things when it comes to safety and health that were really our nation's first attempt at a lot of it. So he strapped rope around people's waists. And what that was was our nation's first attempt at fall prevention. It was just a rope around their waist. He also put netting across the whole span of the bridge. And that was another attempt at fall protection. 19 people fell. The rope didn't catch them. The net did Catch them. He also mandated that hard hats at the time, they were really widely used in the mining industry, but they modified them for construction. He put everyone in hard hats on that site. He also mandated eye protection and respiratory protection for those riveters building that bridge.

Wow.

So the big thing and probably the most important thing that he did was very novel at the time, which was if you didn't follow the safety rules, you were going to be dismissed and fired off that site. So he enforced the safety rules. Now that was something that ended up saving a ton of lives, I think. All in all, 11 people died on that project, far less than the 35 that they had projected. Now I say all this because that was a hundred years ago. That bridge was built. Started in 1933 when I came into this industry after my undergraduate degree and my master's degree in health sector management and kinesiology, I took a holistic look at this industry and still saw we have about a thousand fatalities a year, we have thousands of job site injuries and other industries don't operate like that. I spent eight years at a tool manufacturer to design tools to prevent musculoskeletal disorders. That is a very near and dear physical thing to my heart. I've had seven hand surgeries, trigger finger tendonitis, carpal tunnel syndrome. So muscular skeletal disorders meant a lot to me. And then I joined MCA three years ago with one specific mission. To improve safety and health for the mechanical contractors and in doing so raise the whole construction industry along in the process. Now that's a big ask to do. We have a big team that helps me do it. But it wouldn't be possible for for me to accomplish that task without the partnership of the United association and other like minded trade associations like mca.

Got it. Okay. Wow. Fantastic answer. Even though it wasn't a long one, it was a perfectly timed one by the way. But really great insight there, so thank you for sharing. Jen, what about yourself?

I think mine's a little bit more simplistic. So I was born into the United Association. I'm a second generation steam fitter. So when I was growing up my dad was a superintendent in the shipyards, which was a pretty rough area to work. So I got to actually go down to the shipyards when I was a little girl and as I was growing up there was a lot of injuries that happened to close friends and a lot of losses. And so as I was growing up and I would see these affect my father and what it did to a lot of the morale of the people that we were around all the time. That's where my focus became that people should be able to really go home in the same condition they came to work and people should not be adversely affected and, you know, trying to have a livelihood to provide for their families and themselves. So I wanted to go into occupational safety and health, but I also had a lot of good mentors that said, you really need to go into the trade, you need to be in one of those positions doing the jobs that you really understand. You need to be out there to experience it. So I went into the apprenticeship. I had three brothers. I was the only one that went in the apprenticeship. I was actually working on my bachelor's degree at the same time I was in the apprenticeship, which was a pretty big task. I communicated with a lot of the folks there that really helped guide me and allowed me to participate in safety as I was going through the trade. So it really helped. And when I actually turned out, I wanted to go into safety full time. And they were like, no, you need to actually be a foreman. You need to push a crew. You need to understand where safety and productivity meets the road. So they actually let my father come work for me. And so he worked for me for a period of time before he retired. I got to lay him off, which was pretty awesome. And then I went into safety full time and I haven't looked back. So I'm really blessed, blessed at the mentors that I've had in place to guide me along the way, to have a really true perspective of how the safety and productivity, you know, come together. And then from there I went and actually worked for a signatory contractor, one of the biggest on the west coast, as a corporate safety director, as a union member. So that also added a different perspective on the partnership between the signatory contractors, mca, as well as the United association, and really making that work right, because they need each other to be successful. And that understanding and that mission and collaboration to work safely and get the job done and be productive is really what I focused on.

I love this. This is something I think is so important because this is something I've never had to think about. I've always had an office job. And I mean, the worst thing that I'm going to encounter is a paper cut or not even a paper cut really anymore, because I don't really write on paper. But it is. I mean, the way you guys just shared your story, like how lives can literally be affected and we want people to arrive home from work this in the same condition that that they left for work. I think that's such an important mission. Now, that being said, you know, there's a lot of things that go into safety. I would love to know why you chose you decided to talk about mental health on today's episode compared to the hundreds of other things that make up safety on these types of jobs. Rafi, why don't you go first?

Yeah, that's a really important question. I think I want to start off by saying that I think inherently, Jackie, safety itself doesn't just improve on its own. It takes a lot of people working really hard to accomplish goals. Why I think we're talking about mental health awareness today is because just a moment ago, I told you that there were about a thousand job site fatalities on an annual basis. Now, last year might have been a little more. The year before it might have been a little less. But those are all physical injuries. That's falls, dropped objects, trenching, collapses, electrocutions, everything that makes up physical safety. On average in construction, we have about 5,000 deaths by suicide. So why are we talking about this? Because our people deserve better. They deserve better than what we've given them. They deserve better than what they've got. A new Harris poll showed that nine out of 10 U.S. adults believe that death by suicide is preventable. Now, 15, 20 years ago, that probably wasn't a true statistic. The stigma that we've encountered in mental health in our industry has been very high. When you think about our industry, they tend to be men, they tend to be macho, they tend to be unbreakable. Right? These guys and these men and women build bridges, they build stadiums, they build hospitals, they build skyscrapers. Impossible feats. And I think that this is an impossible task. But we wrote the playbook with physical safety, how to prevent falls, how to keep people safe. Ppe we can do it again in mental health. And that's what we plan to do.

Yeah, I love that when you told me that statistic. When we first spoke, my jaw hit the floor. A thousand fatalities on average from actual physical injury, but five times that was for death by suicide, which is is staggering. And I want to say we were talking a bit before the camera started rolling that Service Titan. Originally we worked with residential contractors, and now we're so excited to be working with commercial and new construction with mca. And now I love that we have the UA here too, but I think this also goes to the residential side of the house. I was just speaking with a woman I know from Service Titan World. She owns a business in the South. And she told me that one of her technicians died by suicide. And it was a very traumatizing event for the entire team because these companies, they're very close. They feel like families in some ways. And this is a real thing that's affecting folks in our industry. So I'm so happy we're talking about it.

Jackie, can I jump in one more time? You just said something that really resonated with me. You used the appropriate language. You said died by suicide. And it's important to note for everyone that we used to say committed suicide. And you, it used to be a crime. You committed a crime. It's not a crime. People die by suicide. And it's, it's right that we use the right language to describe it.

Yeah, I'm very proactive in using that language as best as I can. And we always slip into old habits, of course, but I'm so happy that we use that language.

Thank you.

And thank you for calling that out. Jen, anything you want to add to as to why you flew and adjusted your agenda? You were supposed to be in Puerto Rico this week, but you came here to talk about mental health. Why did you want to come here and talk about it? Why was it important to you?

Well, it's insupportant for several reasons. And I, again, anytime we can talk about this, I take the opportunity to talk about it. We're doing a lot on the United association mca. We're doing a lot on the forefront of this. But to echo the statistics from Rafi over here is that safety professionals, we thrive on statistics, right? I mean, we deal with the EMRs and the RIRs and all those. So you can't refute the statistics. And it goes back to we have the code of federal regulations. We've had that for a long time. It is important. Safety glasses, classes, fall protection, all of those things are important. But if you look at a lot of the expenses that contractors are putting out to, you know, inform and teach and educate and train the workforce, we're spending X amount of dollars on that. But we have suicide by, you know, five times that. But we're not putting in that much effort. So that's, you know, been a change for us. We put a lot of effort in. We're doing mental literacy courses, vital cog to get that peer ally support out there. Most of the people, especially in the trades, we work with those people and spend more time with those people more than we do our own families. And you're exactly right. You had mentioned that it really was, you Know, impactful to the morale and just the overall wellness of the whole team. And that's what happens out there. We lose, you know, one of our brothers or sisters out there, and it is a significant loss and it doesn't need to happen and we need to get better at that. And I hate to bring it up, but, you know, Covid was one of those things to me that I think that was a catalyst to have these conversations, to be more vulnerable. It became under the magnifying glass and people have now become more vulnerable. To talk about this, where we tend to statistically and, and just in general live on macho island out there. It's a male dominated industry. Usually we're trying to change that, but people have not been vulnerable with their feelings or usually type A personalities. Get it done. So when you have brothers and sisters out there that, especially our brothers that can stand up and say, this isn't okay. We can't tolerate this anymore. And they're empowered to speak about it. And I, I think that that's a huge, pivotal change we in the industry and I am so proud of all of us for having these conversations because losing one life is too much and, and we don't need to have that happen. We have the tools and resources and I think we need to constantly keep pushing it forward. So that's why I'm here, is because I don't want to lose another person.

Yeah, I love both of those answers. I want to make sure that we're all talking from the same space. I also am very passionate about mental health. I have my master's in marriage and family therapy. I want to make sure that we're using a common definition here. So when we talk about mental health, how do you two define it? Rafi, maybe you can go first.

Yeah. Mental health, in my opinion, is your emotional and psychological temperature. Right. If your temperature is too high, you respond poorly to stress. You respond poorly to a lot of situations. You're not optimistic. You don't think positively. If your temperature is at a normal rate, 98.7, you respond positively to things. So in my opinion, I think it's your psychological and emotional health is what mental health is to me.

Yeah. What about you, Jen?

Yeah, I mean, I echo that. You know, I think overall it's how we adapt to stress, how we socialize, how we can endure things, how we deal with the ups and downs that we, we get throughout life. So I agree on all of those things. I think we're speaking the same language here. So overall, psychological, emotional and and social well being of individuals.

I. I echo that. I agree with that definition. And I also want to add what I've seen in my experience doing the show and also in this, you know, therapy side hustle, I kind of did for a few years thanks to Covid. So many people are different in how that temperature is measured. Right. You can have different brain chemistry that affects how your temperature is either too high, too low, or normal. And you also have to look at how you were raised with, how do I deal with big emotions, how do I deal with disappointment, how do I deal with feeling distant from my support system? And everyone has different levels of that. Some people got a really great education as to how to regulate their emotions. Some people did not. And so I think it's also important to normalize that. Mental health isn't something you just kind of have that's either that gets bad because of a set of circumstances. Everyone has a different baseline. And so I would want to say that here to normalize that. If folks listening here are like, man, I kind of feel down quite a lot, I want you to know that you're not alone. And a lot of people struggle with that. And that is no fault of your own in any way. There's a lot of factors that contribute to mental health and whether or not you have the tools to deal with mental health challenges. Sometimes you don't have those tools right away.

Yeah. And sorry, if I can just jump in. So one of the things that you had just said that just popped off in my head is that how this correlates to safety is risk tolerance. That piece right there, like from for me, is we all have different risk tolerance. And we see that on the safety front, people sometimes are really good at working at heights at 150ft, or some people are in confined spaces. And there's a different level there. And that to me also correlates to how we deal with the ups and downs in lives too. So you were gonna say something?

Yeah. Earlier you said, things we're doing to improve women in our industry. But the fact is, it is a male dominated industry. 60% of men who die by suicide have no history of mental illness. Mental issue. Now, it's an important thing to say because in construction, the same thing that makes our workers so damn unique, their resourcefulness, their ambitiousness, their ability to tolerate all of the things that they do, that is the same thing that makes them vulnerable. Right. They are not likely to ask for help when they need it. They feel like they're wrong when they ask for help. And that simply is not the case. You need to ask for help.

It should be said when you bring up women in the trade as well. So from my understanding and the research that I have done, that while the statistics that are put out by the CDC generally pertain to men because it's a male dominated industry, women statistics are stripped off from that. But it's actually one of the highest causes of death for women in construction is death by suicide. And why I think this is an interesting topic because as we're trying to bring more women into the trades, there are certain unique perspectives as well from women that come in. Right. I can speak from experience on that. There's a lot of mom guilt if you're a parent. That happens. It's really challenging also if you're a singular female. In our industry, we tend to generally have more of a motherly, like, you know, nature to us. And unfortunately, sometimes the. The ones that do want to communicate, we end up being that. So there's a whole nother realm that I think that people should be aware of and why it's important to get resources out because you can be one of those singular people. I was the only woman in my class and on a job for a long period of time and I got to hear everybody's problems and ask perspectives from a woman's standpoint. And that can be a lot too. So I think that the more we get resources out that are available to everybody, I think that's also going to be beneficial as we bring more women into the trade.

Very good point.

Yeah. Actually that's really interesting. I didn't think about that. But if you are a woman who, if we stick to traditional gender roles here. Right. Like women are seen generally as more nurturing. They're more of a person to go to if you need some support, I can imagine how that could become very burdensome as the only woman in the workspace who's receiving some of this stress from their co workers.

Can I give you an example?

Of course you can.

All right. So going through my apprenticeship, I remember specifically sitting in the car in the parking lot and I was Talking to my 3 year old on the phone before class and she started crying and asked why I didn't love her anymore. And at that moment, it broke my heart. That was the closest I've ever come to quitting the trade because I just didn't think that I could do it right. But I knew it was on the other side. So I, you know, put myself together and I went back to Class. But I couldn't talk about those type of issues either because you also can't at that time feel like you could be vulnerable yourself because of what you bring to the table. So I went into class and then I get to listen about everybody else's issues. And so there's a. Just this different dynamic that does happen as well. So I think that we need to be cognizant of, of that when we're having these conversations. And I would be remiss not to bring that up because I need to speak for those women out there as well.

Thank you so much for sharing that. I think that's so important. And I'm sure there's. I know for a fact that there are mothers listening to this who have spent hours, hours of their day working on their business or working as becoming an apprentice. I actually have a woman who came on the show right before this airs. I think so, actually. Or you might be right next to each other. I don't have the, my, my list on hand, but single mom who became an electrician and had to go through apprenticeship and had to choose her workplace because of one that gave her flexibility. She's like. And that's stuff that people don't always think about. That's interesting. Thank you for sharing that, Jen. That's really enlightening.

Yeah, Jen, I would say it's up to leaders like you to be the voice for people that don't have one right now. Thank you for saying that.

Yeah. So I think we are talking about a couple dynamics here, right? Like, we're talking about how the standard person that you would see working in construction, a technician, someone who's very technical, get things done, can complete these really big projects. Maybe they're not so used to asking for help. So that's one dynamic. On another element, we add the female perspective, maybe being inundated by being the mother of the group, feeling some parental guilt also, I would imagine a little bit of isolation. Being the only woman on a job can also be pretty hard. So these are all things that are kind of hard to talk about. I would imagine so, Rafi, given that, you know, there's all these different dimensions here that can affect mental health for folks working in the trades. How common do you find mental health issues among the folks that you interact with on a daily basis?

Yeah, it's a really interesting question. And I'm going to take a step back here. I think in the, in the U.S. on average, there's about 45,000 death by suicides every year. So that's one every 11 minutes. In construction, we're four times higher than the general population as far as death by suicide. So the question, in my opinion, isn't how common it is, it's why is it so common? Now, there's a number of reasons here, and I'd like to, you know, ask Jen for her feedback, too, but, you know, finances play a part of it. Working far away from your family sometimes, or travelers for long periods of time play a part of it. Getting hurt and being exposed to opioid and developing potential misuse and abuse situations, Substance abuse plays a part of it. People do a lot to get out of that truck every morning. The way our industry works is you don't get paid time off, you don't get paid for holidays, you don't get paid for your birthday, you don't get paid for Christmas. So you work to earn for your family, and you're going to do it however you can. So I think people mask a lot. So the question of how common is it? I think the real question is, why is it so common?

I love that perspective in the way that you put that. And I agree with everything you said. Simply put, for me is we work ourselves out of a job. That's what our goal is, right? We go where we need to go and we build things. And so we're constantly working ourselves at a job. And that is one of the basic, you know, things that people need to have is financial stability. That's what people have, especially, you know, they have a family. So I think that that is really the crux of a lot of it. And not only the hours, a lot of times that need to be put in, the traveling. I have a soft spot for what I call road warriors are our tradespeople that they go where they need to go when they need to go to build America. And they're away from their families, their kids, they miss the birthdays, they miss their wives or their husbands. And also it's hard work. I can speak to that. It's physically taxing work and so that people get injured, unfortunately, or your bodies break down. You only have so many bends and twists in your body. Body, right. So when people need to keep going, then we have obviously medical professionals that prescribe things to keep them going. And I think that that just exacerbates the issue. Also, people that are away from home, they could be. They don't maybe have a lot of things going on. So gambling and substance abuse, you know, not just opioid addiction, but alcohol and other Things can play a part of that. So I, I agree with you on a lot of those topics. And then the question is why? And then what can we do about it and how, how do we prevent it? Right. So if we can't change the dynamics of actually how we operate as a trade and how construction works, then what can we do for our members to help them be more successful and have a more thriving life and still do the things that they do?

Yeah, I mean, it's an excellent question. I'm so happy that you brought up up the, how opioids can potentially tie into this. As I mentioned before, I kind of sit on my butt for work. I'm very privileged in that way. And like I'm 34. I'm already feeling my body, you know, start to degrade a little bit. How sad. But I can only imagine what that's like for folks who are in it day in and day out on their feet, working with heavy equipment, climbing, jumping. My father was a carpenter and so he was on job sites for most of his life and his knees are pretty, pretty terrible. And so when you think about all the other factors that contribute to it, especially you know, maybe the over prescription of opioids, that brings a whole other dynamic into this.

Well, you also have environmental. We can't forget that people work in a whole bunch of different environments, like extremely hot, extremely cold. So we have that on top of it. It's a perfect storm for us.

Yeah. Oh my goodness.

Jackie, I want to add one thing here. I think the fact is pretty clear that we're having a construction boom in this country right now. Between we talked about this last night, the infrastructure bill, the CHIPS act, the inflation reduction act, the demand for skilled labor is at one of its highest points and there's a skilled labor gap right now in this country. So we're adding people, we're moving people around, we're sending them where the work is. It's a very hard thing to do for the workers. And when we root cause analysis how people took their first opioid pill, it stems all the way back from musculoskeletal disorder, a slip, trip, fall, cut, puncture, laceration. People are taking the thing for the first time. That first prescription because of a common job site injury, and it's low back pain, things like that. And it for some people can stem and spiral into misuse and addiction in some cases.

Wow. Okay, so I want to recap a little bit here. So for folks in the trades, they're kind of going against a Couple things. One, how. What kind of tools they already have to deal with mental health issues. And we already established that could be wildly different depending on circumstances. We have physical limitations. Right. Having a job that's physically demanding and can cause you to hurt yourself more frequently than a job like mine. Then we also have environmental factors, which are extreme heat, extreme cold. And then also we've been alluding to the fact that for a lot of these jobs, especially for folks in the UA and mca, they are travel, they are road warriors, and they are spending time away from their support system for long stretches of time to build America. So these are a lot of factors going against people. So I would love for you guys to talk a little bit about what can fellow tradespeople listening to this episode do about this?

I think it's a great question. So, first of all, I think it's being educated. So being vulnerable and being able to be willing to talk about the hard topic. We got to get good at talking about uncomfortable topics. It's. That's just it. And so putting themselves out there, becoming pure allies, right? So I look at this, I correlate a lot of things to safety. So if I saw somebody that was working unsafely on a ladder that could potentially, potentially hurt themselves, I'm going to say something, right? Because I'm my brother, sister keeper out there, and I see this is no different if we're observing people and their behavior is not as they typically are, because we see these people all the time. We've worked with them for a lot of, you know, years in many cases, or a new person we don't know that just come in, you know, a traveler to get to know them and pay attention to the signs and being able to have direct conversations. So for me, one of the things that we need to do is actually just become more our peer allies to our brothers and sisters. We are our brothers and sisters keepers out there.

Yeah. Can I add on to that point real quick? One thing that I learned is that talking about suicide with someone will never make them die by suicide. So I think there's a lot of taboo and a bit of a stereotype as well. I don't want to put any ideas in their head. And that's something that I learned in my education, that you can't actually do that. You can't supplant an idea of suicide into somebody's mind if they weren't already thinking about it. So to your point, looking out for our brothers and sisters out there, it sounds like you're really Advocating for having frank and honest conversations.

Yeah. And we're putting a lot of effort into it. We have vital cog training that we're doing. It's a two hour training. It's a boots on the ground, peer to peer training where we're directing those conversations, where we're getting to the point where we're making, you know, 1. Destigmatizing the conversation. But being able to look at somebody and say, you know, Jackie, based on your, you know, behaviors, I've observed X, Y and Z, I'm worried about you. Are you thinking about suicide and being able to get that out of your mouth? Because. And educating them that those, the statistics is true, that you, you know, you're not going to put it in their head and people have that, you know, thought that that's going to happen and it's going to be that result and that's not. So getting people comfortable with that topic and being able to ask direct questions is really what we're focusing on.

Yeah. Rafi, would you like to add.

Yeah, I. This is a very emotional topic for me. One of the most common questions I get from contractors is, you know, what am I even supposed to say? What if I say the wrong thing? Right. And I think my personal response to that is like a quote I heard from one of my really good friends say, you don't have to be certified to show compassion. So Jen and I are both very fortunate. We get to work with some of the best minds in construction mental health. We partnered with Dr. Sally Spencer Thomas, and she goes through a whole exercise of asking questions, just what Jen said, active listening, supporting. But her main point is bringing up that question, have you thought about suicide? And if you ask those questions, if the answer's yes, you're going to get a yes. If the answer is no, you're going to get a no. So I think asking the direct question, if you see those warning signs makes a difference because then you can direct them to the right resources. Whether it's a call to 988, whether it's a call to a hospital. Most insurance covers mental health. Most hospitals have mental health professionals. So directing them to the appropriate person. If a yes exists.

Yeah, I love that we're talking about how scary it can be for that person who's noticing their fellow colleague or trades person suffering and how scary it can be. Like, I don't want to bring attention to it, but I think by doing that, you're already lending a hand and saying like, hey, just so you know, I see you And I care about you and I don't want to see something bad happen to you. Sure.

You know, Jackie, I'm not a mental health professional. I don't claim to be one. I don't think we're trying to turn our construction workers around the country into mental health professionals. Compassion, empathy, those are the things we're trying to do. We're trying to break the stigma. Ask the question that you would feel comfortable asking your sibling. Asking your best friend, but on a job site.

Yeah. Okay, so let's talk a little bit about what are some warning signs folks should look out for when it comes to their friends, families or colleagues working in this industry. What would you guys say are some things that they should look out for as. Ooh, like this person may be struggling mentally. Rafi, why don't you go first?

Yeah. I think a change in happiness is one of the big ones. Increased anger. Those are two very common signs when we talk about what, what it looks like that would. That's in my opinion.

Okay. What about you, Jen?

Yeah, no, I agree with that. I think appetite, I think those are like the general ones. If we're talking about trade specific stuff for, for folks. I mean there's a lot of indicators. People that have normally punctuation, not showing up to work, being late, people that have normally been happy, super agitative or argumentative about things, even their craftsmanship can, can be suffering. So we have a lot of other cues from a field perspective just in addition to like the behavioral aspects that we, we can pay attention to.

That's great. So if someone notices these signs, what should they do?

We'll have a conversation. Right. It's again, being our brothers and sisters keepers out there and actually just having the conversation and seeing where it goes. There's a lot of important things. Follow up is important as well. So we talk about that, you know, making sure that they. Where I'm going to follow up with you after the conversation. But it's just having the conversation, opening your mouth is the big thing. It's just taking that step and not ignoring it.

Yeah. Anything else you want to add, Rafi?

Yeah. I think safety is all of our responsibilities. So my safety on the job site.

Site.

It's up to you, Jackie, to keep me safe. It's up to Jen to keep me safe. That's how I feel about all physical safety. It's the same thing for mental health. If I need your help, it's not just your power to do it. It's your responsibility to keep me safe. So you're keeping me safe for my daughter, for my son. You're keeping me safe for my wife. I would do the same for you. And that's how our workers around the country should treat each other.

Other.

I was just gonna say I think that it's become more common too, that people are starting to use the term psychological safety or holistic safety where we're really paying attention to the physical, psychological and emotional aspect of our workers. So I love seeing that tied in now versus just the physical aspect of safety out in the field. So I think that's really important.

Yeah, we've done a damn good job of protecting people from the shoulders down. It's about time that we start protecting them from the, the neck up.

Yeah. I want to throw out a question I didn't prep you guys for, but it came to my mind and I have to answer it because you talk about psychological safety and in the workplace, you know, there's a lot of factors that could contribute to psychological safety. What about the manager on site, the foreman, the. The gm? Let me know if I'm using the terminology correctly or incorrectly. What if that person is the worst? What if that person is like a total. Can't think of another word other than hard ass? Excuse me, but like, what if you're in a, essentially a toxic workplace in these situations, what would you recommend members do?

Well, I mean, we, you run into that often. I mean, I was taught a little different. Right. I was taught with the philosophy when I was a foreman that you conduct yourself in a manner because you don't know if you're going to be working for that person next week. Right. So you always treat people with kindness. I think that we're talking about two different topics. Maybe because you have the, the mental health piece of like the, the worker that some people are just programmed a little bit differently for personality wise, where they're more like really type A, they're assertive. That doesn't mean that they're having mental health issues. It just means that they have a different way that they conduct business. So maybe I'm not really clear on when you mean they're like a hard ass because sometimes people are. They push productivity. But are you talking about from a bullying standpoint? Is that what I'm saying?

That's more what I'm talking about. Yeah, yeah.

I think having the conversations, I think one of the things that, you know, know, generally we're good at is communicating like, hey, I don't really appreciate the way you're talking to me or you know whatever the case is to get them to understand from a different perspective. But there's also a hierarchy of communication. So you always could go to your general foreman, right, and, and talk about that individual. But it does happen. But bullying, harassment is not tolerated. Discrimination is not tolerated. Our General President, Mark McManus has made that very clear. It's not tolerated. So there's mechanisms to handle that. That if we could take a step back really quick too. One of the things that I think is important that we haven't touched on is the golden handcuffs in consulting in constructions. And what I mean by that is when we talked about finances, the EB and flow, but also when you just brought up the supervisor, that's what really sparked that in my head. Because people are put into different roles where there's a different scale that they make financially, right, Their pay scale, or you have a new apprentice that comes in. So financial literacy is extremely important in our world because they can come in, not be making very much money and then start making all, all this money that they get on overtime. They start buying the trucks, the houses and all of those things while the work dries up. It's ebb and flow. Construction is ebb and flow. Right now we're in a boom. But that golden handcuff is extremely important. It's one of the big factors of death by suicide. So I think that that's something that shouldn't just be ignored as well as financial literacy in our, in our world.

Going back to your question, I want to make sure I'm saying this right for you, Jackie. Bullying, Bullying and harassment won't be tolerated on any site. We are all aligned with that. Having said that, I understand the, the hard ass project manager or foreman who is responsible for timelines and budgets. And I get that. When it comes to safety and health, every single person, whether you're a laborer, an apprentice, you have a stop work authority. When it comes to safety. And here's my hot take. It's not your authority. It's your responsibility. When you see something happening that's unsafe, whether that's physical safety or harassment, bullying, which can jump into mental health, it is your responsibility to stop work. You could shut a whole job site down if you see people not using fall protection, leaning off ladders, that's your responsibility to that person and to their family and to that job site.

Site.

So to your question about the hard ass project manager, There's a fine line between being a hard ass and doing the right thing. And it's everyone's Responsibility to stop work if they deem something unsafe.

Thank you for sharing that and I appreciate you guys answering that question. What I found, the work that I've done in mental health and just being in the workforce for several years, you know, sometimes it's frustrating to me. So I'm imagining it's frustrating to listeners. You have have people that are talking about the importance of mental health on one hand, but then really focus on productivity in the other. So I think it's important to address that. Sometimes those two things can be in juxtaposition of one another.

Can I give you an example of something that came up that I thought was really profound? So I was doing this two hour vital clog mental literacy training and it was with supervision that had been in the trades for 28 to 32 years. Right. That that timeframe. And we were talking about the factors for suicide on the Joiner model. Right. So isolation being a burden. And it was interesting, the light bulbs come off and these are, I would say, pretty assertive supervisors right out in the field. And we were talking about how somebody could feel isolated or a burden and what that would look like in their world. And one of the things that came up I thought was interesting is they were talking about the fact that they put out productivity sheets, right. For like, let's say welders. And they put it out there and everybody gets to see it on a weekly basis and is what the productivity is. So now you could have several different factors, right. You could have people that have been there for a while that maybe their productivity was low because they didn't have materials. You don't know what it is. It doesn't show that then you can have productivity that's low because you have a new travelers coming and just getting logistics up. So that right there creates the sense of like being a burden and isolation. The conversation then goes on to somebody sharing about their child being in cross country. And there was this story about this. This child had unfortunately gotten in a car accident. Dad passed away, but he had no leg. He had a prosthetic. And so he was running cross country and he was last in every cross country meet. But what the coach did was actually put up a bell and so that the team then started celebrating their PRs personal records, right? Yeah. So when they came across. So instead of one person winning, they were all celebrating their individual successes. So as this conversation is taking place during this training I'm doing, they put the, you know, two and two together that were like, wow, maybe we should put out these PR Rs for productivity. Instead of putting this out, that, you know, just the actual list, because then people have something to celebrate.

You're.

You're eliminating the isolation, you're eliminating the being a burden on a project. And I just thought that was really profound, that exercise that took place on identifying potential issues with mental health with what I would consider very, very seasoned and very assertive supervision. And I thought that that just brought a whole different levity to the situation. So I think back to your question too, if there. What you could do is maybe bring a different perspective to a conversation where maybe people can understand something a little different.

Yeah. Because it goes back to. Everyone has. Everyone's operating with different skills and different levels and different facets of being a human. So I think celebrating personal records could be really important. Same thing for on the service titan side, you know, close rates, average ticket, all of that stuff. Like, it's so easy to prop up the best salesperson every month. But what about celebrating someone increase their average ticket by 25%, 50%. Even if they're not the top, they're still improving. I want to make sure we give credit to the golden handcuffs, because I know that's an important topic for you, Jen. So when you're referring to these golden handcuffs, you're talking about how financial literacy in the trades, and let's just say in general, financial literacy is really hard. I think we can all. I'm not sure if you guys can. I'll speak for myself. Financial literacy is something I've had to teach myself and is very hard and intimidating. I think there's a lot of mental health stuff wrapped up in finance, finances, personal finances. So you're saying that even though, say a tradesman or woman is working on a job site and say they're miserable, they want to go home, or they're really suffering, they feel like they have to be there because they don't know when the next line of work is going to come. Is that how you mean it to be?

Yeah, I mean, that's a piece of it. That could be one element. And I think it's multifaceted. Right. Because you also have people that maybe were not making as much money in the past that all sudden now they have, you know, a vast more amount of money at their disposal. And so they're buying more things that they are now, you know, in debt with payments and house payments and trucks and boats. And then the work dries up and then, unfortunately, we turn into a pseudo country song. Right. The wife leaves the cars Taken away. And that happens a lot. So that's the other aspect of the golden handcuffs. Or you could be pulling, put in a foreman role or a general foreman role or a superintendent, and then that project is done and you're back to being a journeyman. That's a pretty big gap in the pay scale.

Yeah, yeah. I'm really happy you're bringing up financial literacy and, you know, kind of catching up with these payments that they make as people buy more. Right. There's a stat I recently found out, which is that the average monthly car payment in the United States is $738 a month for new cars and 532amonth for used cars. And so when I hear about, you know, this sounds pretty common in the, in the field, you make more money, okay, great, I'm making more money. I'm going to get a new car. But now you're tied to this monthly bill that you have, you know, however long to pay off, and that puts additional stress on you and that tightens those golden handcuffs a little bit.

Correct. Childcare is another issue. Childcare is extremely expensive. So trying to, you know, and the. Generally we start work really early in the morning. So if I need child care that starts early enough to take children, that's one of those things that it's really hard to also get women into the trade because of that. But it also causes a lot of stress. I know, me personally, I shared this last night that my very first year, I actually lost $112 by putting two children in childcare. So I worked the entire year and actually paid to put my children in childcare. So things are really expensive, but it does, you know, what's on the other side of an apprenticeship. People need to know that, especially those that are coming in, that it is worth it. The sacrifices that you put in, the hard work work, it's worth it in the end.

Yeah.

Financial literacy should be taught in high schools. It should be taught in trade schools. When you put money in people's hands and then they make decisions that they're not equipped for, when you back someone into a corner with their money, people do strange things.

Yeah, yeah. Understatement of the entire show, I would say. And as I, as I said before, I think it really ties into mental health and a lot of different ways. So you guys have been so generous with your time and this episode has been chock filled with information, but I want to make sure we get to some really hardcore resources here. So my first big question is, what should someone do if they're experiencing these symptoms. We've talked about themselves. So say we have a listener right now. It's like, oh, man, this episode is really hitting home for me. What would you suggest they do?

My immediate answer would be to call 988. 988 is the national hotline for mental health. It is for mental health emergencies, just like 911 is. You can talk to professionals, mental health professionals, and you will get them live on the phone. That number can also be texted.

Okay, great.

Yeah, I echo that. I actually called 988. I called 988 because I wanted to understand the process. And so I. I actually interviewed them. I told them I was interviewing them. I spent time, about an hour on the phone with. With them understanding. I mean, they actually route by area codes. And for me, I wanted to call 988. And I recommend everybody actually doing that if they're comfortable. Because then if somebody is in the time of a crisis that you can actually say with confidence, call 988. And you know it's going to happen on the other side. It was a really insightful conversation. And so I echo Rafi, call 988. But maybe call it all also if you, you know, have. Are not experienced something, but you can actually be there. And I actually did this last week, actually had somebody on. We did a merged call with 988 because they weren't comfortable calling themselves. So I facilitate. Facilitated the call with. With 988. And I thought it was fabulous.

That's really nice.

Yeah.

Okay, cool. I would say probably also find someone. Someone or think about people in your community that you can reach out to that you can have that honest conversation with. I can only imagine, like, I'm thinking I'm putting myself in the shoes of the contractor throughout this conversation. Can only imagine how hard it must be to see someone you care about at work and notice they're struggling and saying, hey, I've noticed X, Y and Z. Are you struggling with thoughts of suicide? I can only imagine how scary it must be for someone to be like, hey, person I know at work or colleague or whatever. I'm having thoughts about suicide. Can I talk to you for a second? Second. So I really want to extend my empathy and compassion to anyone listening who's dealt with those thoughts, who's dealt with that. Because it's just a really big. It's a really big fear. That's all I have to say about it.

Jackie, you know what's more uncomfortable than having that conversation? Showing up to that Funeral, Right. A fatality, a death by suicide can change a company called culture forever. It will change a family forever. An uncomfortable conversation. That is the easiest thing to do.

Good way to put it. Rafi. Jen, is there anything we should have talked about that we didn't get a chance to today or anything you want to expand upon a bit more?

I'd like to talk about resources that are available.

That was my next question. So that's perfect. But before we go there, Jen, anything we've missed that you want to talk about?

I don't think so. I just hope that people can be brave. I think calling 988 and asking for help is one of the bravest things that somebody can do do. And so I encourage people to do that same.

Let's talk resources. What are some resources out there that folks can use?

So there's three things I want to talk about. The first one is osha. OSHA has taken a stance when it comes to mental health. They have free resources on their website. OSHA went so far as recently to hire a mental health professional who's out there advising OSHA on policies on guidelines resources on their website site. I met him a few weeks ago. Really good guy, very intelligent. He's a PhD, a mental health practitioner himself. So the first thing is osha. The second thing we have the American foundation for Suicide Prevention. They have a number of free resources on their website. You can Google that and, and go check it out. And then specifically in construction, we have an organization called the ciasp, that's the Construction Industry alliance for Suicide Prevention. Again, a number of free resources on their websites, toolbox talks, posters, ways to have conversations with your teams. Those are the three big ones. And then I want to talk about what Jen and I did on a project together. So even your local or your national trade associations, like the mechanical contractors, even some of the other ones, they have resources for you. So in September of last year, Jen and I created a 22 minute video to discuss mental health awareness and suicide prevention. How MCA resources work is they're available to MCA members as a benefit of membership. Right. We're not supplying them to the whole industry, but we found that our secret to success is sharing those resources. So in September, we launched that video internally to UA instructors, to MCA contractors. By December of that year, we got hundreds of phone calls saying, you need to make this video public. So for the first time ever, MCA in January of this year published that video available to anyone. It's on YouTube, it's available in English and Spanish. It's a 22 minute video that is a free resource to anyone. We've gotten calls from the food industry, the distribution industry, from high school principals. We've gotten calls from calls from all over the country, from grandparents, from fathers and mothers who watched that video, who had feedback for us on thanking us for what we've done. That video includes subject matter experts on mental health. It includes the contractor's voice, the workers voice. There is a snippet from Jen Massey in there that I think everyone should go watch that video and hear. It was one of the most important things we've done in 25 years in safety and health at MC is make that video public.

Can you share me that link and I'll put them in the in the show notes of this episode?

Absolutely.

Fantastic. Jen. Anything Rafi missed?

Samsha is another one. And then also Sam Shaw. Yeah. So for the substance abuse and also for our VIP. So the United Association UA.net also has a link to the VIP. This is how our actual involvement really got started was five years ago with our Veterans and Piping program because we, you know, had a loss from one of our VIP members. But on that page that's available to the public as well, which I'd love to be able to put in the link that has a just a utopic amount of resources, especially for the rank of file members and then also to tap into your local. So the way we work is that we have locals throughout the U.S. each one can have a different employee assistance program. So make sure you're asking, asking and sharing that information with the members in that geographical area.

Awesome. All right, those, all of those many resources will be linked in the show notes of today's episode. Rafi and Jen, I want to thank you so much for coming in person and chatting with me about this. I am so happy we got to record this and share this message with the audience of Toolbox for the trades. Thank you so much for coming on.

Thank you for having us.

Jackie, I really want to say thank you for making this voice louder. Thanks service titan for continuing to echo this message. It means a lot, not just to us, but, but to our whole organization, to our whole industry. Thank you.