Stop Forcing Sales and Start Asking Questions | Podcast Ep. 133 | Toolbox for the Trades

Derek Hofrichter, you are the coach and trainer at Service Business Evolution. And Lamont Page, you are a technician at Worley's home service in Yorktown, Virginia. I am so excited to have you guys on the podcast. Derek, why don't you say hi first so the folks know what you sound like.

Hey. Hello. Thanks for having me.

And Lamont, last but not least, why don't you say hi so the folks know what you sound like.

Hey, I'm glad to be here. Thanks for having me on.

So I am so excited to talk with both of you today. We are going to talk about why having a selling process as a technician is so important. But before we get into that, I got to ask you both an icebreaker. And Derek, maybe you can take this one first. If you could hang out with any fictional character, who would you choose and why?

Jackie, that is such a difficult question, but I like it. I like these type of questions. The problem is a lot of the. Because I'm big and like, Lamont and I are both big into like comic books and anime. A lot of your favorite characters I think would be terrible to hang out with. Like, and so it's, it's a tough, like, I just think like, you know, like Iron Man, I think he's, you know, he's kind of a jerk and stuff. Like, you would probably get over him really fast. But anyone who knows me would not be surprised with my answer. It would be Captain America.

Oh, wow.

And because I think, I think that his true superpower is his leadership skills. And I'm currently in the middle of doing a master's degree in leadership. And so I would love his help with my homework and I would love to pick his brain a little bit on leading such a difficult team like the Avengers with different personalities and strengths. So that would be my answer.

Awesome. I have to tell you guys that I chose this question specifically for you two after at the end of our pre interview, you guys geeked out about something Titan related. I don't know. So I knew. I. I know I had to ask this question. Lamont, I would love to know your answer. If you could hang out with any fictional character, who would you choose and why?

So for me, this is not a hard question. I mean, Vegeta is my all time favorite character. Anybody who knows Dragon Ball knows about Vegeta. He was written in as a character that would only be there for one season, but he got such a good praise from like the fanfare that Akira Toriyama actually wrote him in to be like part of the main series. And I think a lot of people, especially when, you know, you grow up a little smaller. I'm five eight. You know, I was a really scrawny kid growing up, and you get to see the transition of the Saiyans, how they always just. They're more powerful every single battle they fight. And I was always the one to fight battles. So, you know, I use Vegeta as kind of like a training material. One of my other best friends in the trades, Terrell, he. He likens me to Vegeta. He considers himself to be Goku. I'm his rival, and it's pretty cool. I like his Saiyan pride. I love how he's unapologetically him. And that's kind of who I am too. So I would love to meet the guy, train with him in a gravity chamber or something.

Oh, my goodness. I love both of your answers. I was more of a Pokemon girl myself, but I certainly watched episodes of Dragon Ball Z growing up. And I just need to let you know, Lamont, that just know tickled some nostalgia for me. So thank you so much. Right, so let's get to it. Lamont, you are a technician. You worked with Derek and the team at SBE to learn a bit about how you can improve your selling process. And we're going to get to that in a second. But before we do, I would love to know how you got into the trades, because it's a pretty interesting story.

It is. So I kind of stumbled into the trades. I mean, I was. I really didn't know my purpose. I didn't know what I wanted to do in life, but I knew I had a family I had to take care of. So I came from the customer service background. I was in call centers for maybe 15 years or so, and I pretty much did every facet of that organization. So I was in hr. I did employer relations. I was on the phone for a while. I managed some teams. I managed a call center. So I felt like, you know, you know, my ceiling was pretty much capped there. There was not much I could do outside of just your typical, you know, nine to five, wear a suit and tie and, you know. But my income would be completely maxed out. I think I was making at the time, at the most, 40,000 a year. And I really couldn't see myself doing much more than that until a buddy of mine told me about a program with the Marines. And it gave me the opportunity to travel, and I loved it. But it was a single man's job. I had a wife and four kids at the time. And I was gone 27 days a month. What ended up happening was I had to come back home. Like I literally had to come home. And I heard an ad on the radio and they said, if you want to make $75,000 a year, call so and so company. And I said, well, this is going to be the closest thing to what I make and if I can get this at an entry level position, I would definitely love to do it. So I called the company. I had zero experience and that's pretty much what they wanted. They wanted a technician with no experience. They wanted to train you so that you can get acclimated to their culture of doing things. And the rest is history. That's kind of how I got into the trades. And I told Derek this, I'm an older guy, so for me I had to take it seriously because this was going to be my career path. So that means I really had to focus on like really learning the trade, learning how to be successful with people. I was already in customer service, but I had to, instead of doing it over the phone, you know, I have to do a face to face now and get people to trust me in a very short period of time because I'm in the house. So I love challenges. And again, like, like I said, Vegeta is one of my favorite characters of all time and he never backs down from a challenge no matter how bad he gets beat. So that's something that I always took with me.

Lamont, I really loved your story and thank you so much for sharing it. And I just think this is so great because it really highlights what so many of the contractors who come on the show are doing. They are trying to grow their own talent from scratch. And this really goes to show that you can find smart, hard working people from other industries that want to do this kind of work.

Yeah.

So real quick, I know I want to talk about how you got introduced to Derek and service business evolution. But Derek, I have to ask, because I ask every single guest, how did you get into the trades?

I was, I've done a lot of things. I went to school for political science. I've gone a lot of different routes from working on camp political campaigns and doing other things. But about 12 or 13 years ago I started my own business, ran that for a while, got heavily involved in sales, sales training, managing sales teams, learning how to sell a lot of things myself, selling roofs and other type of deals. And so just as I was doing, I found that I really had a Passion for sharing, for teaching, for learning things, for helping people get a passion for learning things and how to do things. And that's sort of my path into it is more from that angle of kind of going around and collecting different pieces of knowledge and different pieces of information and simplifying it, making it understandable, and then just sharing it. So for me, like, I love hearing success stories like Lamont. That's what fuels me. That's what makes me want to wake up every day. And so I came to SBE about three years ago, and it was just like a kind of a perfect alignment of all my passions and skills with the mission that SBE has of taking guys like Lamont and others out there and helping them get the life and the career that they've always wanted.

Awesome. And we know each other, Derek, because SBE partners with service titan. You and I have partnered on content before, different webinars, which we'll link in the show notes. But I would love to hear, Lamont, how did you first get involved with service business evolution, and what was that like for you?

Yeah, so it was. It was. It was definitely different for me. I had never. So by the time I went over to Worldly's, I'd already been in the trade for about six years. And Chuck approached me. He offered me a job and told me I was highly sought after in the industry in our area, of course. And it really surprised me, so I gave him a shot. And I just like the way that Worley's, as a company, treats their technicians. It's a different culture. They pride themselves in making sure that the technicians are successful. And one thing Chuck says all the time is, if you guys are making good money and I'm paying you good money, I know you're going to treat my customers well. I know you're going to have a high quality of life. I know life in general will be better for you. And he's willing to give us all the tools of the trade to get to that point. So whether it's vocational training, whether it's just sales training, whatever type of training we need, if it's a new equipment that I'm working on that I haven't seen before, I got my hands on it, I can call Chuck and say, hey, Chuck, or chase this. You know, I'm not familiar with this, I want more information on it. And, you know, he prides himself in making sure that we're there. So when I moved over to Worldy's, and the platform that I saw there was much different. Than what I expected because I was always used to running 8 to 10 calls a day, sometimes 10 to 12 calls a day. And it was in and out, in and out, in and out, in and out. So the biggest issue that I had was, you know, he pulled me to the side and say, you know, we need you to slow down on your calls. You know, you're running them, you're running 80 hours a week. But that's not what we want you to do. We want you to have a better quality of life. We want you to be able to spend time with your family. We want you home at a decent hour. So we're going to drop you to four calls a day, but then we're going to introduce you to this process called service business evolution. And I'm saying to myself, hey, you know, Chuck, this is how I make my money. I do overtime. You know, this is how I've always made my money, you know, so my first year in the trade, I made $66,000, making $14 an hour because I was running 100 hour weeks. And, you know, my quality of life was just not the greatest. I didn't have the trust that I wanted from my customers. So when Chuck made me slow down and Chase made me slow down and be a part of the program, it opened my eyes to so much more than just sales. Right. Because the things they teach you at service business evolution, they teach you practical things that you can use in life. So I can use it with my kids, I use it with my wife, I use it with my relationships with other people, and it helps me listen much more to what they have to say and respond in a way that can either offer, you know, a solution for them or just offer a listening ear. Because a lot of times, that's what people want. And one thing I love about the process is that now, just yesterday, I went into a customer's house, and I barely even picked up my tool bags. Sat down with him, went over his concerns about the system, and we started talking about everything the way sbe tells us. And I barely picked up my wrench, and the guy bought two systems. I mean, I was there for two and a half hours because it's really about finding out what the customer really needs, going through the pain of what they've been dealing with for the past, you know, 10, 15 years or so, and finding out how to alleviate that pain or alleviate that pain. So that's kind of how I got introduced to the business. As soon as I got on with Worley's, I Mean, I want to say I got hired in October. I was in Arizona, I believe, in December that same year. Wow.

For sbe.

For sbe. Yeah. I mean, he. He literally threw me in there, and I gained so much information from it, just based on how I've been running calls before, because I thought I was. I thought I was pretty successful, but actually, I was, you know, average. And then I saw my numbers, you know, gradually increase year after year after year to where I think last year, I did almost 800 and some thousand revenue for the company. Yeah. And I'm on track to do a little bit over a million this year. So. I mean. Yeah. So quality of life, I'm telling you, man, I'm working 45 hours at the most, maybe. And it's really transformed my life. I mean, it's. You know, I get home, I get to spend time with my kids. When I'm at work, I can focus on working. I don't have to rush through my calls. So it's really been a game changer for me.

Honestly, that is just the poster for work smarter, not harder. Oh, my goodness. But I get it. I totally get it. Like, I feel like when you first join, we start a career, something like the service industry, where output is so important that, like, go, go, go mentality is something you really have to unlearn. So I imagine it was actually kind of scary when you first try to implement SBE's process. Am I right in that?

Oh, yeah, it was. It was extremely scary because, you know, the first thing I thought about was, how can I take care of my family because I'm losing hours on overtime here. You know, I pride myself in just being a really hard worker. So, you know, I'm grateful Chuck pays me well because it allowed me to be able to see what I really needed to do, because, I mean, if I was with any other company, I'd probably be running myself to, you know, to the ground, honestly. I'm 38. You know, I may have a few years left in me, but I need to take care of my body at this point in time. I have to make sure that I can make it home to my kids. So those are some of the things that I really had to kind of hone in on when. When I was thinking about the negatives, and they weren't really negatives. I mean, because me working 80 hours a week, I mean, it was running, you know, too many. Too many hours, too many hours at one time. So, yeah, you know, it's just the process itself was a Little difficult because, you know, you have to unlearn all of what you were learning, all of what you were taught before. And I think that's the most difficult process, because once you are in the customer's house, your muscle memory kind of kicks in. Right. And you kind of do things that you're used to doing that don't really net you a lot of money. And with me, I had to forcefully, you know, change, because after every call, I'm saying to myself, how many opportunities did I miss here? You know, how fast did I go through this call? And, yeah, the customer's cooling, but they still have mold on the registers. They still have leaks in the ductwork. They still have other things that I didn't address because I just wanted to get in and out. And when I. When that started to kind of shine a light on what was going on, and I saw my colleagues making way more money than me, with less experience and working less hours, and I had to say to myself, okay, well, what are they doing that I'm not doing? So, yeah.

Yeah. I'm really happy that you shared that with me. I will also say I'm 38. I have a couple good years left. I'm 33, and I hope I have many good years left, Lamont. So I just want to offer that to you. I will. You're like. You know, the second time you mentioned that you're an old man, I'm like, how old? I'm, like, looking at you through the webcam. I'm like, how old is this man?

Like, I'm one of the older guys. I'm one of the older guys, you know, at the job. So they. They look at me like the old man.

Oh, my goodness. I. I'm just gonna pretend I never heard that. But when you. When you're doing something scary, right? When you're trying to override that muscle memory, it's so important to have a process and in place, which is really why we're here to talk about today, right?

Yeah.

So tell me a bit about. Well, actually, I think you might have answered it a bit. Maybe you can expand upon this. Like, what's the difference between using a selling process and not using one? You mentioned muscle memory kicks in, and it sounds like you really just don't do the customer any favors because you fix their one thing, and you don't bother to check in and see what else you can offer for them. Is that right?

Yeah, that's correct. I mean, so every company I worked for, we've always had some form of commission. And a lot of times the commission was only based on the leads that you would produce for the comfort advisors. So the comfort advisors would be called, and then they would sell the equipment. You get a kickback off of that. All right. This is the first time where we pretty much get paid on everything that we do, right? And, well, it's. It's kind of weird because when you say the sales process, it kind of makes it sound a little, you know, I guess unjust in a way, because, you know, sales just has a bad rep. You know what I mean? So a lot of times with the process, if. If I'm following the process properly, a lot of my customers thank me at the end. They write me letters. I mean, they'll send good reviews on Google or whatever it is that we use for our reviews here. And, you know, I'm not used to that. I'm not used to having a product in front of me, buying that product and then thanking the person that sold me the product. So it's. For me, I really look at it like my customer has some really serious needs that need to be addressed. A lot of times they don't know the business, they don't know the industry, so they don't know why they feel the way they do when they get home. Had a customer the other day, tell me, he says, you know, I bought this house 10 years ago. Everything was fine. And then he said, my wife just started developing, like, terrible allergies. My daughter developed asthma. And when I walked through the house with him, and I said, you know, Mrs. So and so, how long is, you know, this black stuff in here on your. Your registers? And he says, well, you know, I just started noticing that a couple years ago. I said, a couple years ago, Wow. I said, so when did you say that you started having asthma issues or your daughter started having asthma issues? Well, about a couple years ago. I never thought it was related. I said, well, it could be. But, you know, the system that you're relying on to give you air, to give you heat, to give you cooling, is also blowing all of that through the air as well, you know, so it's like, there are things that, you know, products that we offer that of course we sell them, but these are products that I believe in, that I have in my own house. So, you know, for me, it's not about selling. It's more about educating the customer. And when I say educating the customer, it's letting them know how their system works, letting them know some of the things that they may be losing out on in regards to the money that they're throwing out of the window. If they have a system that is just leaking air from the ducts, you know, how much does that translate to on a power bill? You know, how much energy are they throwing away? You know what I mean? So at the end of it, it's me being a private investigator and really combing through the system and saying, okay, well, I work for you, and your system right now is taking a lot of your money. How can I help you get this money back? Or how can I help you save more money over a long period of time? So it's kind of like, you know, when they introduced the SBE process to me, it seemed like I was missing so much because like Derek said, man, he just loves helping people. He loves giving out information. And when the coaches are able to, like, relay information to us in a way that's so practical, that makes so much sense. I start looking at my own system like, okay, well, you know, I've been putting this off for a while. You know, I need to start looking at this thing too, because it gives me a real story to tell to the customer. So I have three air scrubbers. You know, I have. My ductwork is sealed. You know, I mean, I have. I do maintenance on my own system, you know, repeatedly. I do maintenance on my neighbor systems. You know, I tell them about this information. So, you know, this is something that I really believe in. These are products that really help me and my family out, because my family is suffering from allergies. So these things, I know they work. And if I. If I go in front of a customer and I know they have these issues, and I don't tell them about the solution to these issues, even just bring it up so that they can make their own decision, then I feel like I'm doing them a disservice.

Yeah, yeah. Thank you for correcting me there. I mean, I think I always say on the show, I have. I've never been a technician. I've never run a service business, but I've had the privilege of talking to so many folks who do have that experience. And sometimes I think the language I use is really informed by service titans, values and what I've learned and whatnot. So I just really, I. I think language matters. So I appreciate you correcting it to just the process. I think that's really great. And you even called it the education process, which I like, too. I want to hear from Derek. Tell me a bit about the selling, about the Process SBE teaches techs like Lamont. And what are some key points every tech should hit when they go into a home?

Absolutely. I think it's important when talking about a process to start with, what's the problem? Like, why. Why do we need a process? And this is a question that I ask a lot of technicians. Why isn't it as easy as the homeowner asks you into the house? You find things. The homeowner's like, oh, amazing, here's money. Take care of all of those things. And because you would think like it, it should be. It technically should be that easy, right? But obviously there's a problem, and that problem is the homeowner doesn't believe you or they don't trust you. Right? That's. That's the problem. And I always tell the tech, it's not necessarily, like, don't take it personal. It's not necessarily you. It's all the technicians that came before you that have created this idea that the technician is a salesperson. And so you need to be careful. You need to almost, like, play games with them or not get. Not share the whole story with them, not answer questions accurately or honestly because they might use that info against you to try to sell you something, right? Sell you something that you don't need or that you don't want. So that, knowing that that exists and what it. What's the. What's the result of if that exists? Low average tickets, low close rates, missed opportunities. That's the proof that this exists. So if you don't have a strategy, a process, if you will, of specific steps that you're going to follow to deal with this issue of trust being low, everyone loses, right?

You.

You lose as the tech because you're not making any money, right? You're not. You're not collecting revenue. The homeowner loses because they don't know who to trust and so needs go unmet inside of their house, they keep living with the allergies, like from Lamont's story, or they keep living with inefficient equipment that's driving up their energy bill. So everybody loses in that scenario. So when we start talking about a process, and actually we call it the trusted advisor process, it's just the idea of positioning yourself where the homeowner is, like, okay, maybe I can trust you. And to do that, you need a process that separates you and makes you different from anyone else that they've had come to their house before. So you're asking different questions. You're looking at things Differently, you're being more thorough than anyone else. You have an ability to communicate and use metaphors and use analogies and make things simple and not speak in technical jargon. And homeowners appreciate that. So, again, it's part of the process. A lot of the process is actually we joke, but it's learning to shut up. It's learning to ask good questions and actually let the homeowner speak because they live there. It's their house. They're. They're the ones that experience their house. So asking really good questions that makes the homeowner ponder and think about what they are experiencing in their home. And then being quiet and giving them the space and the time to answer it and being aware of your energy and your vibe, that basically you're in, like an empathetic, nurturing position that you're not judging them or shaming them for. For whatever it is they're doing in there, like not changing their filter or they haven't had maintenance done in a few years, that you're actually there to let them know it's okay. I'm just here to help. I'm here to take care of you the best that I can. In order to do that, I'm going to ask you a lot of questions. So that's kind of in a nutshell. If you know what answer you're trying to. To get to. Of we need to build trust, then you do need a strategy to make sure that, you know, even on that day when it's hot and it's your third, fourth, that you're still doing that. You're still. You still got the steps in place to make sure that you're giving that. Your customers that level of service.

Yeah, I want to recap that real quick. And then, Lamont, I would love for you to add on to anything, but it sounds like what you just said, Derek, all technicians are going into homes with this. This challenge of most homeowners are not going to trust you, or most dwellers are not going to trust you because of this stigma, because of previous times they've been ripped off. Or, you know, maybe they just have trust issues.

Right.

Or stories of their neighbor getting ripped off or a family member.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So to combat that, you're going to be really curious. You're going to ask questions. You're going to shut up. And I really love the point you made about not shaming them because, you know, I think we can really. Okay, shut up. Right. Like, I think people can get really. When people get nervous, they can hide behind language. So I could see why it's really easy for maybe a newer tech to like come into a house and use all of this fancy language to try and build reputation, but it actually alienates the homeowner further because now you're speaking a language they don't understand and they. That trust is getting further away. I also love the idea of not shaming. I mean, I don't know about you, but like, how many homeowners, like have owned a home before, you know, like. Yeah, yeah, I'm sure there's so many. From what I know. I'm now in a generation where friends are finding homes not in Los Angeles, but in other places. And they, you know, they're learning how to manage their home. And I think coming in and not shaming them. When you find out a filter hasn't been replaced in, you know, several years or there's mold coming through or, or some like black stuff coming through, I think is really important because they're gonna, they will experience shame for that. Like, oh, crap, I should have known about this. I can't believe I've been doing that. But I think that's actually. Those are really key points to hit.

Lamont.

Anything that Derek missed that you wanted to call attention to?

No, no, no. I think he hit everything on the head. I would like to expound on just a couple points. So one thing that I really didn't do before that I started doing now with this process is actually reading a little bit more self help books, right? I listen. And so I, about two or three years ago, I would listen to music all day. Now it's audiobooks, now it's podcast, now it's self help stuff. And one of the books that stood out to me was Never Split the Difference. Right. And he talks about how, you know, using mirroring language to like break down a lot of those walls. And I was that technician in the beginning that said, hey, there it is. That's it.

For anyone who's watching on YouTube, we've got never Split the Difference negotiat as if your life depends on it by Chris Voss, who was an FBI negotiator, I believe, or csi.

Yep, yep.

Yeah, it's very good. I've listened to it as well.

Yes, it was a very good, very good eye opener for me because one of the things that I really struggled with was hiding behind that language. Especially as a new tech, I wanted to prove that I knew what I was talking about. And a lot of times customers would see me, especially with me being an Oil tech. And I'm not as old as most of the oil guys in the, you know, in the industry. They would see me and they. They'd be like, well, they sent the wrong person. Let me, you know, give me somebody else. So I would have to break down, you know, that. Those walls that they had and just show them through, like Derek said, a thorough process, having them with me the whole time, where I'm cleaning out every single component of that system. And it's taken me hours. I mean, it's taken me two to three hours to. To comb through a system and inviting the customer in with me. But one thing I learned through the process is that I was using too much technical language and I was losing customers. So a customer would say freon, and I correct them and say, no refrigerant. You know what I mean? They said, well, no, just if they say Freon, and that's how they recognize it, just use Freon. So it's just. Yeah, I think those points are very important because like I said, you're in their house and that defense is up and you have to figure out a way to break it down because, you know, I'm a stranger in your house. Right. And I have to get you to trust me enough to where, if we need to go over finances, we can. If we need to go over credit score, if we can. If we need to go over utility bills, we can. Because, like, my job really is to help you find the best possible solution for whatever it is that you're going through. And even if it's just a maintenance, I want you to feel trusted that I'm going to take care of your system and that when I'm done, your system is not going to break down. You know, you're not going to have to call back in 60 days and then replace the whole unit because of something that I did wrong. So that process, this process has really helped me gain a lot of customers for just my customer base, because I have a lot of people who request me by name and have customers in particular who will wait 30, 60, 90 days just for me to fix their unit or even.

I believe it.

Yeah, so I believe it. I think that's. To me, that's a highlight of the trade because, like, I pride myself in trying to do the very best job that I can. And I still mess up sometimes. But even with me messing up, they give me a level of grace that they don't give other technicians only because they know how well, like, I want to perform my job and how well, like, I'm in their corner really fighting for them. So, no, I think Derek hit everything on the head. I just wanted to kind of share that, though.

I'm so happy you did, and I'm glad that you could relate to that thing I shared about hiding behind language. It's so interesting that, like, we try and prove ourselves, but really, like, I think the way to really gain trust is to be honest. And I love that you said that. Even when you mess up, because you do mess up, we all mess up, right? You can be master of your trade and you could still, still make a mistake. And I think being able to own up to that mistake, explain why it happened and what you're going to do to fix it, that just is so much more impressive than using a bunch of terminology that someone doesn't necessarily understand or trying to hide. Something like that builds trust, that builds value.

I think, you know, to even add on that part of trust is like competence, right? We're going to trust somebody if we view them as being competent. You know, we're going to trust them for a variety of reasons. And if, let's say we needed to buy like a new computer and we didn't know anything about computers, if you go to someone who's kind of like an amateur, they're going to tell you everything they know about computers. They're going to use all these words and things like that, and they're likely going to say, and here's what you should do. But if you actually go to an expert, they're not going to tell you anything. They're going to instead be like, well, what do you want to use it for? What, you know, what. What type of software do you do on it? They're going to ask questions that again, it's kind of paradoxical. We feel like to prove our competence, we need to say everything we know. But in reality, the true experts don't feel that need. They just ask questions. And it's like, ask questions, ask questions, ask questions. And then they're like, okay, I think I have a good idea that these are probably going to be your best options.

Yeah, yeah, right.

But there's still like a little bit of like, But I don't know, you know, versus, like, people who tend to have less competence get very confident that they have. That they have the answers. It's a funny little.

What's that thing like it when you know a little bit about something, you assume you know a lot about something. That. That saying. But an amateur, even someone coming into the trades can still act like an expert and still ask those questions, right?

Yeah. Especially if they have a process that's teaching them. What questions should I be asking? When, when should I be asking the questions? How do I. Well, what if the homeowner is not quite answering the questions like how do I, how do I have strategies to keep asking and to even help, to help the homeowner explain what it is that they're experiencing, you know, because a lot of homeowners have frustration of there's something going on, but they don't know how to like communicate it. And again, that non judging approach, hey, it's okay. Just how about this? How about this? And asking questions that allows the homeowner to feel like they get it all out and that you actually heard their side of the story.

Yeah, yeah, I think too, if I could add, when you're asking these questions, like, it gives the customer the opportunity to talk about themselves, to talk about the things they like to talk about, the things that they're proud of. And like, that also breaks down a lot of walls too, because like, you now become a funnel for them to just kind of talk about their problems. And I had a customer, she shared her whole life story with me. I mean, she talked about her kids, she talked about her dog, she talked about how she grew up. And I mean, I'll tell you, I probably got measurements for a system, but I was there to fix it. And she was like, you know what, I really enjoyed talking with you. And she was like, I know I've needed to replace the system for the last five years or so, but I just want to go ahead and do it with you. And I didn't even bring up any pricing. I didn't bring up anything. You know what I mean? I just, I just asked her certain questions and asked her, you know, how long do you want the system to last? You know, what do you see yourself in 5, 10 years, blah, blah, blah. And she kind of like sold the system for me, you know what I mean? So it's, it's a, it's an awesome process. And one thing that I love about it, like I said, I can use this for my kids, you know, I can use this, you know, with my wife. And it's helped with communication because instead of me, you know, communicating things that I want in a direct manner, I can ask her questions that are more softening to her. Right. And to where it doesn't feel like I'm so abrasive because I, you know, until somebody holds the mirror up to you, you really don't know what you look like, you know what I mean? So when you're going through the process and you're in the, you're actually in that, you're in the space where you're doing the training with them and you're going through the role play and then you're getting to see some of the areas that you're missing and you see other people who are hitting those target areas and you're saying, oh, wow, I never even thought to ask that question or I never even thought to go about it this way. It really changed the way I communicate with people overall and it's really helped me out. And I think because I am a little older, I have, you know, children that are a little older. It helps me kind of play with, with them in a way because I can practice with them when I'm at home. And then when I get in front of the customer, that's, that's game time, you know what I mean? So the process itself is more than just, you know, in front of a customer, which is pretty awesome to me for sure.

I mean, relational skill 101, like, don't get defensive, get curious, right? Like, that's the key to winning people over. I don't thank you for the credit for the reaction. I'm actually training to become. I'm getting my master's in marriage and family therapy. So I'm learning all about how relationships work.

Thank you.

Lamont and Derek. I could talk to you guys frickin for the rest of the day, but we've been going for almost 40 minutes and I want to. We got to wrap it up, unfortunately. Any final words? Derek, you work for Service Business Evolution. You want to say anything about that or, or anything else? Final words for the show?

Yes, I'll share a little bit. You know, again, if anyone's listening to this and they're curious, they can check us out. Service Business Evolution. A lot of resources and classes and things they can check out, but I just want to share like something helpful that people can take away from this if they want to get better at this of being curious. One of the most curious and most powerful questions you can ask is tell me more about that. It's, it's just such a perfect question. Especially if you feel like you're in a situation where you don't know what to say or really like. The temptation for most technicians is when they hear the homeowner say a problem is, they immediately try to solve it. And this is a problem too. In like relationships and things, too, when someone is trying to open up and you just. And you just immediately try to. So this, like Lamont was saying, this question works with your relationships, too, is like, fight all of your temptations. Just ask. Tell me more about that. It's like one of the most empowering questions you can possibly ask somebody because they can literally take that wherever they feel led to take it at that point.

That was my favorite question from the conference. I use that one. I use that one a whole lot. It works tremendously.

What about you, Lamont? Any final words?

Yeah, I mean, so I have a podcast for newer technicians in the field is called the H Vac Apprentice Podcast. The whole aim of the podcast is to get technicians who are either struggling to get in the field or struggling to get the. Either income they want or recognition they want as a technician to help them stay in the trades. You know, I mean, the trades has done so well for me and my family. And, you know, there's so many different facets of the trades. I mean, you have technicians, you got managers, you got dispatchers, you got workers that are outside of the field, such as yourself. I mean, such as Derek. So if anybody wants to reach out to me, hit me up on h vac apprentice podcastmail.com and that's insane.

I can't wait to listen. I can't wait to listen to that. Lamont. I really. I think that's a great podcast. You've got a wealth of knowledge. And I just want to thank both of you, Derek, you as well, wealth of knowledge, for coming on and sharing some of those crucial tips. Hopefully we can do this again someday. Thanks, guys, so much for joining us.