014: Kevin Daum - ROAR! Get Heard in the Sales and Marketing Jungle

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Welcome again to the Scaling Up Business podcast. I'm your host and Gazelle's coach, Bill Gallagher. I have with me today Kevin dawn, who will be talking about Roaring getting heard in the sales and marketing jungle. Welcome to the podcast. Welcome to the studio, Kevin.

Thanks for having me, Bill.

Nice, nice to see you here. So what are we talking about today? What are the key parts of roar?

Well, the whole idea behind Roar is that there's a whole lot of messaging going on out there in the space and most of it really just falls flat. Everybody has their story to tell, everybody says lots of things, and most people don't care. So with roar, I address two of those issues, the first of which has to do with being able to tell your story in a compelling way. And there's three basic parts to it. The first one, which I think is the most important, is the aspect of empathy. Business is not about empathy. And particularly entrepreneurs, I find part of what makes them successful is they like to talk about themselves. They're evangelists, they got a story to tell. They think the entire world needs to go their way. It's their idea, the rest of the world should follow. That's the way that they, they push things forward. And the, the important part of ROAR at the very, very beginning is, hey, you know what, that's great. Those ideas are fantastic, but they're not actually, you know, the world is not about you. And, and, and that comes as a surprise to, to many entrepreneurs. So the, the premise of ROAR starts with the aspect of empathy. What is the pain that you're solving? And I learned that, interestingly enough, from a Bay Area entrepreneur you and I met years ago back in the dot bomb bubble. And we both had startups at the time, and there was a wonderful entrepreneur named Manish Chandra who built Kaboodle and sold it. Now has just got funding for a company called Poshmark. He's facilitating young women to trade their clothes all over the world. Now it's quite amazing, but Manish actually, actually taught me this when, when I had my startup and he set me up for VCs and said, look, the very first place they want to know is what is the pain that you're solving? Because if you're not solving some pain, then you know, nobody's going to buy. Nobody really cares. And I have that conversation all the time. I was just inc. Doing a conference and somebody said to me, well, you know, I don't really understand because my product isn't necessarily something that transfers to pain. It's not like somebody's going to live or die on the basis of my product. And in that process, I ask everybody in the room, how many of you have an iPhone 6S and the hands go up, usually 50% of them. And I said to them, how did you feel when the iPhone 6s came out and you only had an iPhone 6 or God forbid you had an iPhone 5? And I said, you remember that longing, that anxiety, that feeling? That's pain.

Yeah.

And so it doesn't have to be, you know, like my old business in the mortgage space, I want to build a custom house and I don't know how to finance it. That's pain. You know, it could be whatever that angst is that you have that you need to solve that problem.

Well, I think you're right. So I would. I noticed there's really two kinds of companies that come to us for coaching. And I bet it's true for most of the coaches around the world. There are the people for whom they're just sick of being plateaued. They're like, I want to break out, I want to grow. And I would bet for them the pain is seeing friends companies grow or feeling like they're not going to turn out or something like that. Right. And they're the less motivated of the two then the other ones are they're growing and things are a mess and they're the more urgent.

Yeah. Well, I think that one of the things I learned from Manish's father in law is there's three motivators that people will buy on. Three emotional motivators. Logic is one, greed is another. Fear is the third. The most powerful one certainly is fear. The weakest one, sadly, is logic. I think we can see that pretty much by what's happening in the election right now. But it's an interesting place. Right. Because you can see that dynamic. How are they selling? Any of the candidates selling? They're selling on fear. Because that's a massive.

Well, politics is almost always fear and.

Not a lot of.

Because it's effective.

So empathy is where we begin. And we're looking at getting in the mindset of our customer. And we do the same thing with our coach. You look at the lead of the company, what is driving that person? Where are they afraid to go? Like, that's the softer aspect, that's less directly touched by our habits.

And one of the things that's interesting about companies, when we go into these companies and help them identify the pain, part of the problem is the misdirection of where they start. So if we go in to look at the company and say, what is it that you're optimal? Because you have to start with your optimal customer. So let's start there. Because all of this only works if you're dealing with an optimal customer. Now, the entrepreneur who sits there and says, well, everyone is my customer, which is an optimistic view.

They wouldn't be working with us.

When they figured out that optimal customer, the customer they want, the next mistake that they make is they start to do customer sat surveys. Oh, I want to figure out what's inside the mind of my customers. So I'm going to go to the customers that I have. And the idea of scaling up, the idea of massive growth is not about the customers that you have. It's about the customers that you want. So when you're looking at the pain, if you just go into the customers that you're. That you currently have now, most of what that's going to tell you is the people who more easily believed what it was that you were telling them. And so you really have to dig out to find that optimal customer that you're looking for and try and figure out what is their pain and what is the pain that they're having that you have yet to address so that you can actually look at how to communicate that pain to them.

Awesome.

And when we talk about the whole idea of this, by the way, this compelling value proposition that Rohr talks about, the idea is to be able to attract customers predisposed to buy and at a premium price. Because ultimately, I think, you know, unless you're some, you know, unless you're Campbell's soup and dealing, you know, P and G, dealing with commodity products, or unless you're, you're, you know, a simple Internet click and buy, most of your clients and most of the companies we see in the Gazelles organization, they are trying to get to that premium level. High profitability, low gross margin, and scalable at that level. So what happens in this piece is that if you are able to communicate that pain on an empathetic basis, that becomes a magnet at the outset. But more importantly, it becomes the identifier that connects emotionally with that customer, that makes them want to continue the conversation. So think about it in terms of if you were out there networking and you go to a networking opportunity, there's 100 people in the room, you have an hour and a half. There's no way you can talk to 100 people in the room. So somebody comes to you and says, and they come to me and say, hey, Kevin, what do you do? I could sit there and start saying, well, I help people with marketing, and immediately they're going to kind of shut down. Right. Because we go into the sales mode. But if instead, what I say is, look, when you've got a company that's hitting about 100 employees, and all of a sudden their communication, you know, they're not saying the same things. They're not saying the right things. There's inconsistencies in the messaging that's on their. On their website versus what their salespeople are saying. Now. If I'm talking to the right customer, they're going to react emotionally to that. I haven't sold them anything. I just started describing a scenario, and if that's their pain, they're going to.

Go, oh, my God, it resonates. Yeah.

Oh, my God, that's me.

Yeah.

Yeah. When you speak to someone's pain point, whether they've expressed, especially actually if they haven't expressed it, they hear themselves in your words or in your message, and they're suddenly interested.

Exactly. And that's the same way that you want all of your marketing materials to work. When they come to your website, you want them to immediately see that pain. And it's that sentence that exactly as I just said it, if that's what's appealing to them. And there's different ways that you can represent that. Perhaps in visuals, perhaps in single slogans, but ultimately, the first thing you want them to do when they get to that space is go, I'm in the right place. This is the pain that I'm feeling.

We actually do a bad job of that. I think.

It is much harder than it sounds. And part of it is because we are so used to selling first.

Yeah.

And that got us, hey, look at me. Look at What I got that got from level one to level two and pulled in the easy stuff. So why don't we just.

So this first part is empathy and speaking to someone's pain, right? The second part of the first.

The second part is objectivity. Because here's. Let's take that networking scenario. So here you are. I've told you I've got the pain and you're all ready to go. Now if I go, I can help you. You're going to recoil and feel like you're being sold again. And so the idea is, hey, you know what? I just gave you the chance to see that I might be smart, much better, rather than selling you, to actually show you that I have some smarts. So the second piece is the objective solution to the pain. Not my solution to the pain, necessarily. That's nice if I've done that right. But what is that objective solution? So as I started, right, what's the pain in my world? Company who can't get everybody on the same page with their messaging, it's getting too big. It's not consistent. The solution is, what if there was a simple way to get everyone saying the right things and ultimately get everything saying the same thing. I still haven't told you what I've done. All I've done is said, here's the pain and here's the solution. And if you're connecting emotionally to pain now with that solution, you're going to go, well, of course, that's what I want. How do I get that?

Whereas to create a case for action, I hear they're speaking the pain, which I now connect with. And now there's a possible future that's expressed in the solution. I don't yet know if you can do that or whatever, but I'm interested in because I see that it doesn't have to suck like it sucks.

Right? And that just again becomes an empathetic conversation of, wow, here's a problem. Yeah, I totally get that. Hate when that happens. Here's a solution. Wow, I would really love that. That's really great. Too bad that doesn't exist. Or where do I find one of those? And now they're in. You're 90% of the way to being able to have a comfortable conversation about what the possibilities are that you can bring to the table.

Nice.

And that really leads to the third piece of at least the value proposition piece, which is the hardest, quite honestly, and the most frustrating for many companies. And that's differentiation. And I, I define differentiation as what your competitors won't do or can't do without great effort or expense. Now, that is not the way that a lot of companies define differentiation. And that's part of the problem. One of the conversations that I have when we teach this is I'll ask people in the audience, how many of you believe that your differentiation is your customer service? And I get a lot of hands raised. And then I get a lot of people who lie because I've seen their websites. And the problem with customer service as a differentiation is that there are very large corporate institutions that actually go out there and say, we give great customer service. And I think people know that they don't.

Oh, no, you can tell the moment you call into a bigger company and it says, because your call matters, blah, blah, blah. If my call mattered, you'd effing staff the call center and answer my phone.

Right? Right. And it's not that they're not doing the best they can. It's just it gets harder.

But the challenge, in many cases, they're actively discouraging you from calling in. They're making it difficult because they don't want to.

Right. But the real challenge for even any company that goes out there and says, we give, you know, we give great customer service, that's our differentiator, is none of their competitors are out there saying, we give crappy customer service.

Right.

So it's not really. Again, it's not a differentiator. It's not something your competitors won't do or can't do without great effort or exp. And by the way, you know, in most businesses today, you're stealing customers. There aren't a lot of new customers for whatever it is that you're doing. Most of the time, you're stealing them from some other company or some other process. And for the most part, it's really hard for them to even articulate that they're getting really bad customer service. They don't understand that they're in trauma until it gets so bad that they're ready to leave. And that's really a small amount of the customers that you're trying to bring over. So there is a challenge. Now, there's exceptions to this. I have seen companies who legitimately have shown some way, they found some tangible way to show they do it differently. The two that most talk about are Nordstrom, of course, which you know well, and Zappos. But what do they have to do to show that they take customer service to another level? It's only the stories and culture that they have of accepting things that don't belong to them as returns. Or the great Zappos story about, you know, somebody ordered a pizza for them, but. But not every company can live up to that. And.

Right.

And the other one, it's just like.

But of course you could differentiate other than service. Right?

Well, that's the point. So that's one that you don't want to hit. The other one you don't want to hit is the whole experience thing. Right? The adding up all of your executives number of years so that you have 2,352 years of experience. None of your competitors are out there saying, well, you know, we don't have any idea what we're doing. So those two you have to push aside. And then you have to look for real differentiators. In my own case, I use the example that I'm an ink writer and there are not a lot of marketers that are ink writers. There are some. Another differentiator is I have a degree in media management. The third differentiator is I also have a degree in theater. The combination of those together and by the way, the third one is really interesting because people go, well, so why do I care? But that opens the door to a conversation on what it is that I'm doing differently. How do I use that degree in theater in my communications, that makes it effective and impactful.

I think I do the same kind of thing.

So there are some.

There are a lot of. There's 180 coaches roughly now in our group and. And some of us cross over in each other's geographical areas. And, you know, what is it that makes you different? Well, I'm way more irreverent than quite a few of the other coaches. And an engagement with me is. Has a whole different feel then. So that's one of the. A couple of differentiators. And I think that people often pick them. Like you got to think about it, like, is that other coach that, you know, what's the stuff? You're going to spend a lot of time with them, you're going to trust your leadership team with them. Some people are very dry and matter of fact, some and serious. And for me, like, serious is. Well, it's all serious, right? It's like serious stakes. But if you make it serious, it's no fun for me.

There are some coaches as a perfect example that what works for them is they're very comfortable in helping you be a little better rather than taking the entire regimen of scaling up to heart. And there are some companies that for Whatever reasons, whatever their motivations or whatever their structures, can't all of a sudden adapt the process. If you're a coach, that fits very well to that. That's a great thing to be able to say. If you're a coach that says, hey, you know, I only am, you know, you can only work with me. If you're going to go for the A, you're, you know, you're going to do everything, knock off that list in that timeframe. That's an important differentiator within that, within that coach world.

Well, and I think figuring that out is key. There are people who start from a financial background. Oh, I'm not that one. It's in our name.

Exactly.

We start with the people side of things.

Exactly. And again, the key about it is that some of the differentiators for a company, some of those differentiators you already have, some of those differentiators you need to discover and you need to figure out. Some of those differentiators may not be differentiators at all. Or they may not be.

Or in the minds of your customer.

Right. They may not be critical to the customer. And then the other thing is that some of those differentiators may be differentiators that you should be working on. They should be key components that you've stuck into the three year thrusts that you've said, look, we intend to be here in three years and we're gonna put our energy and our resources into having that differentiator three years from now. The benefit of being is that you'll be under the radar to your competitors for that period of time and they'll wake up one day and all of a sudden you've got this differentiator that's blowing them out of the market. And again, go back to that point. What they won't do or can't do without great effort or expense, by the time they sense that you've developed this key differentiator, they're going to be sitting there and going, I don't understand how we would do it. And take us three years and a lot of money and resources to do that. And that's great. That's the idea. So many people ask me, they go, kevin, what kind of differentiator could we do that would help us kill the market? 90 days? And the answer is there isn't one. Because anything that you would do in 90 days, your competitor is going to follow on very quickly. Intake.

Well, I think this also goes along to a recent podcast we had. We had Dave Rendle on Talking Freak Factor and how to discover what makes you unique and different.

And I take forever to look that good.

For those of you who don't know Dave, he wears a lot of pink and he's freakishly tall.

Yes, he is. That's a differentiator that I will never be able to.

He's also very funny.

Yeah.

Awesome.

Okay.

And then there's different types of people.

Yeah. So once you get this message straight. And by the way, that concept of, of what's the empathetic pain statement? What is the. The objective solution? And then what are your key three differentiators. A couple things to know about that. First of all, it makes for a great elevator pitch. You don't need to know anymore. Now, I live in New York, where you have a lot longer for an elevator pitch because there's, you know, 100 floors or so. But, but really, that's, that's the piece that you're looking for. And it's most important to know that if, if you put out that pain statement and the customer's not responding well, that's very resonant.

Then also with cynics, start with why. That pain statement speaks to the. The why and the motivation. The second piece is your how and your what.

Right.

As well.

And the, the whole idea of compelling messaging and marketing in general is about efficiency. It's about that networking room of 100 people. If you're going out and you're using that pain statement and somebody doesn't respond to it in a way that is positive to you, you just got to look at them and say, hey, move on. And that's how you're going to get through the hundred people in the room and find the people that resonate. Companies have their salespeople spending lots and lots of time trying to convince people who don't even relate to the pain. And so as much as this is an outward going process, it's actually a diagnostic to see if you're spending time on real customers or not.

Okay.

Now what happens is you move to the second part of roar, which is not everybody responds to that buying structure in the same way. And so ROAR actually helps you to work with those customers or those prospects in a way that will move them down the line. So ROAR stands for recognize the type of buyer that you're dealing with. O, which is observe it from their perspective. So again with that empathy piece, the third part A is acknowledge. You have to actually tell them, hey, I get you. And then the last, which is to resolve their need in some manner.

Yeah.

And the Good news is there's not a zillion types of buyers. I figured out that there's actually four. There's a process that has been used for 3,500 years to teach children a compelling story and sell them on the process of this story. And it comes actually from the Old Testament. I happen to be Jewish at the Passover Seder. That's more obvious to some people than others. But you know, you put the New York thing in the. Exactly. So in the Passover Seder, which is where Jews for thousands of years have been selling the story of Exodus, the story in the Bible to their kids, there's a passage that talks about the four kinds of children that the wise child. The wise child. Yeah. So it's the. So in the passage it's the wise, the wicked, the simple, and the child unable to ask.

Yeah.

Now we looked at that and it turns out it's the same kinds of buyers, slightly adjusted. So there's a wise buyer, there's a cynical buyer, hence the wicked. There's a simple buyer, and then the last one is the buyer unable to ask or what I would call the disinterested buyer. Now there's an important differentiation between the disinterested buyer and people who are not your buyers at all. And a lot of companies spend a lot of time working on people who are not their buyers at all and thinking that they're just disinterested. And that's where you want to really look at the efficiency process more than anything else, which is a lot of the content marketing HubSpot content marketing, the things that I talk about in video marketing for Dummies, all of that is attention getting work. To not turn everybody towards into your buyers, but to pull out those people who are actually really good prospects and attract them to your process, attract them to your message. And so that disinterested buyer will convert into the wise, the simple, or the cynical. At some point.

At some point. So you're nurturing that. Well, I'm often surprised that I hear somebody who's like, reaches out to engage us and they're like, oh, we came to a workshop you led two years ago and we thought it was awesome. We've been thinking about it. I'm like, why didn't you ever speak up?

Yeah.

And there could be percolating.

Yeah, There could be a thousand reasons that are factors. The funny thing is so many of us were so sold in our minds, we just don't understand why other people just don't follow our sales process without Consideration for whatever else is happening in their company.

Right. I think one of the priorities in there.

Yeah. I think one of the benefits I have of. There's not a lot of benefits to getting old, but one of the ones that's there is you start to see long term patterns and anomalies and in our minds, the sales cycle for, you know, when you look at closing a client in Gazelles, we probably look to the most optimal situation, which is the person who hears us or meets us or comes to the seminar and immediately turns over and buys. And that in our mind is the way it should always work. But in reality, once you've done it for a while, you know, there are people that you spoke about two, three.

Years ago, months, and then a few that show up much later and maybe one. Yeah.

And in likelihood those people that.

That's true of our clients. Clients as well. Right. It's not. We're not just talking to coaches here where we realize all of our listeners have different kinds of businesses. And all of that's true for them too.

The sales process has variables in the timeframe and the requirements of what it takes to actually convert a client. And that's partly where you come into these three kinds of buyers.

So it seems like the wise buyers, the more easy, obvious sale.

Right? Not necessarily, actually. So let's go through the three. The wise buyer is. Well, first thing I want to say is that people will ask me all the time, am I a wise buyer, am I a cynical buyer? It's situational.

Yeah, got it.

So a wise buyer is motivated by the fact that it's probably a high stakes purchase and they're super interested in understanding every aspect of what's going on.

Right.

And so they, you recognize these people, they just have question after due diligence, thoughtful, careful. One answer, you know, will stimulate five other questions.

Yes.

And they may or may not be that thoughtful and careful in everything else they do. But because they are tied to, to this particular purchase, whether it's because of the price that they're paying for it or the time commitment that they're making, or the stakes that are around with it, because of that, they're going to be highly inquisitive. And so you recognize them at that level, you look that the key component in the empathy aspect is they are not looking for necessarily the answers to every question. What they're seeking is understanding. And so you acknowledge that and you say, look, I get that, you know that there's a lack of comfort in this area. And so you and so the resolution for them is not to answer every question because maybe the questions are unanswerable. So what you're trying to do instead is be their guide, say, look, I don't know that we can answer every question, but I'm going to work along the way with you to actually answer every question I can. The cynical buyer, which is my favorite.

You love that one.

I do.

Because a key opportunity for the empathy to come in.

It does. They are the most loyal. Now, the whole thing about cynical buyers is the reason they're cynical is because they got screwed in this sort of transaction sometime before. So they're walking in, there's a fear at work of some kind, and they're going to recognize. You're going to recognize them by knowing they're probably asking a lot of questions similar to the wise buyer. But the questions are highly pointed. Yeah, they're pointed towards a particular area.

Well, I think you can hear the cynicism, too. Right? There's a charge, there's a tone that's often apparent with people.

You know, some of that's regional. The Bay Area is known for its quiet politeness, so you might not hear that in the same way in the south, it's known for, you know, hiding everything behind the curtain.

So, well, they smile and say, bless your heart.

Exactly. So you. You may not be able to pick it up in that way, but you can see them if they're stuck on a particular area. And so once you've recognized that, again, you have to understand they're afraid, just like you said, of being screwed. You want to go in and acknowledge and say, hey, I understand that you got messed up by something else in this environment. So the two keys to resolving them is, first, you have to open the kimono, show them how the inside works. Back in my mortgage days, that was where we would pull out the wholesale rate sheet and say, let me show you exactly what I'm making. Let me show you how it works inside the bank so that you understand it. And then you have to sacrifice in some manner. You have to give them something that they wouldn't ordinarily get somewhere else. Now, the great part is if they buy in, these are your most loyal clients, and these are your biggest refers.

All of a sudden, they're converted cynic, just like a converted complaint customer becomes your most passionate advocate.

Exactly. And they're never going anywhere else, because if they feel like if they go somewhere else, they're going to get screwed again, they don't want to go through that process. So they're just coming back.

Yeah.

The last one being the simple buyer is what most of us are for 95% of what we buy. We go into the market, we want to buy a can of soup. We don't need to be the wise buyer. We don't need to be the cynical buyer, you know, unless we don't know that brand or what we wanted wasn't there.

Yeah.

And, you know, maybe we're cynical because maybe we had a bad experience with that, but in most cases, we're just buying what we buy now.

Accepting easy.

Yeah. Except that it's not always so easy. And this is where companies work waste so much of their time because simple buyers want what they want. It might be that they want an Aeron chair and they want it in blue, or they want it at a specific price, or they just want to get a deal, or they just want it whatever it is that they want. And I will watch sales organizations and sales coaches who will sit there and say, here's how you convert them. And what a massive waste of time to get an unhappy customer, because what they really just wanted was something else. So the most, the best efficiency is, is to say, look, I don't have exact. If you don't have what they want, right? If you have it, give it to them and you're done. If you don't have it, say, I've got a couple other options for you, and if they don't respond well, get rid of them. Your website can actually be structured. We used to do this where you structured to push away those people that.

Didn'T want what they want. I have a good example of this. So I used to. I started a few years ago doing CEO coaching, and I thought I was just going to do CEO coaching. And then after a while I realized that for me anyway, that sucked and was hard work and not a good client base. And when I shifted to teams, things.

Got a lot better.

But then a couple weeks ago, I got a call from a guy who's like, hey, I heard you're a great CEO coach, and I really need to hire a coach, and I've got a fast growing company. And I'm like, yeah, I don't do that anymore. I do it as a compliment to team coaching if you're buying into the whole thing. But if you're not gonna let me in with your team, we're not doing it right.

And what a great way then to put on your website, you know, hey, we only work with teams so that you. You sure you could spend time converting CEOs on why they should do it. Let the website do that, work with its educational factor. But basically say hey, unless you want to work with teams, we're not the company for you. And then cause that call was expensive for you. Your time is valuable and you want to spend that that time talking to the prospects that are going that you're going to attract predisposed to buy and at a premium price.

Yep, yep, yep. Awesome. Well that's so that there's four buyers, there's three parts to the honing the message and all of that. That's a pretty great framework and I love that somehow we managed to work in the four questions and the four kinds of children from the seder that we all just had recently.

You know, when something works for 3,500 years, you got to give it a little credit.

Give it a little credit. Well, it's interesting how across cultures and religions there are common stories and things like that. And I'm sure if we had different background, we might find different stories in some Sanskrit tradition or some other thing. Right. But we grew up crusaders.

I think the key aspect is to look at what are the messages that have been able to resonate for so long and look at why it is that they've been able to resonate so long. Right.

There's something in them, something behind them.

Right. Going back even to the political climate and looking at what is the stuff that is breaking through the media, what is the stuff that is resonating in people brains and what is it? It's easy to scoff at the good or the bad of this candidate or that candidate. But for all of us in business, regardless of what happens, this is a fabulous insight. Time to look at what works in messaging, why does it work? How can it be applied in business in such a way that we can replicate that to find the customers that we want and get them to the door.

All right, well this is super actionable call. We're about time here for our show but we'll have a recap of the points in the show notes. So the main points will be called out and then we'll put some links in both to the book and to you and your website.

Anything else, you can actually download the first two chapters that deal with the value proposition. If they go to kevindom.com, it's right there on the front page, they can download it, look at that value proposition and play with it.

Alright, so we'll have link to the Download link to kevinlode.com and link to the book on Amazon. It's awesome. You're headed out to a beautiful day here in the Bay Area today.

Nice day. Nice day for wine tasting. Yeah, nice.

All right, well, thanks for coming in and recording the show with us today and we'll see you soon.

Thanks, Bill.

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