046: Lynne Twist - Transform Your Relationship with Money

Are you thinking about how to grow your business with near and offshore staffing, but you're also wanting to make sure that it's reliable, cost effective and really well done. I think docsa talent is the way to go. Here's why. They don't just fill your jobs. They bring integrity, top talent and a people first approach that's hard to find. I've known the people at Doxa talent for over 20 years now and I say that you can count on them. I have talent. Talk to Doxatant and you won't be disappointed. Go to doxatant.com Bill G. Again, that's doxatant.com Bill g. One more time. Doxatalent.com Bill G. Check it out today. Hello and welcome again to the Scaling Up Business podcast. I'm your host and Gazelle's business coach, Bill Gallagher. So today we are going to expose your life sentence around money and you're going to get a whole new freedom in the area of money. Look as scaling up business entrepreneurs, we're all dealing with money all the time and each of us has some pretty limiting thoughts on money and it's not your fault. And that's the message of our guest today. A fabulous woman with great ideas and who's over the years become a dear personal friend. We met many, many, many years ago in work around eradicating hunger on the planet. I'm excited to introduce Lynn Twist. Lynn, welcome to the show.

Thank you, Bill. I'm delighted to be here. Wonderful. Thank you.

So for everyone, Lynn in particular, she does all kinds of stuff in so many areas. She's no shortage of activity and energy. But the book that often has a lot of immediate application. Her book for entrepreneurs is the Soul of Money and she's been a past speaker at our Fortune Summits. She is recently interviewed on air for the Super Soul Sunday. Lynn is a pro activist. She's an activist for things, not merely against things like we're so used to seeing. And she began her work, well, some of her work over 25 years ago or no, worked for longer than that. Right. She's worked with Mother Teresa in Calcutta. She's met some of the poorest people, most desperate people and raised money with some of the wealthiest people on the planet. I know her today. My wife and I have been involved in supporters of the Pachamama alliance that she's been involved sort of reshaping our consumer driven culture while preserving native rainforest traditional cultures. And it's just a pleasure to have you on the show thank you, Bill.

It's been a long and wonderful friendship with you, and I'm delighted to be on your show.

Thanks. So tell us, tell our listeners a little bit about. Take us back to the beginning. You know, how did your life evolve into this direction? How did you come up with the ideas and where did all this come from?

Well, I had some wonderful teachers I was very fortunate to know and actually follow. I don't say study, because I didn't really understand what he was talking about most of the time, but follow Buckminster Fuller. And Buckminster Fuller, we all called Bucky back then, was a great engineer, architect, futurist in the 20th century. And in his 70s and 80s I discovered him. And really I wanted to be around him. I just wanted to be in the company of someone who thought the way he thought. And he invented an electric car in 1949, seeing the end of fossil fuels coming. So he invented the geodesic dome. He's a guy who. Who was way ahead of his time. And now the things that Buckminster Fuller said are all coming to fruition. So having an opportunity to know him, he was a great teacher for me. I also got involved when I was a young mom with the EST organization and the EST training, which was quite controversial at the time. And Werner Erhard was a great teacher for me, quite a controversial fellow. But the distinctions of the S training, which became the Landmark Forum, have also been very important to me. These are kind of the primary distinctions of transformation. And then, of course, along the way, I've had teachers like Mother Teresa. You can't deny that is.

From Bucky Fuller to Warner Aaron to Mother Teresa, that is, Those are some great influencers. Yeah.

Also I would say the people that I used to call poor, I would never call them that any longer. Because what's poor is their circumstances, not them. They're not poor. In fact, they're creating courageous. These people living in conditions of hunger and poverty, post war zones, learning from them. People who have such resilience, such courage, such imagination, such sense of how to get through a day that the rest of us are never going to need. The kind of courageous people that are on the front lines of ending world hunger and now indigenous people. These are all my teachers, to tell you the honest got truth. And I got involved in the early days of the Hunger Project when it was being formulated. I helped to put Buckminster Fuller and Warner Earhart together, which actually was, you could say, the relationship that gave the Hunger Project its start. So I was just lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time and ending world hunger. Just the idea of actually ending world hunger swept me off my feet and I became completely devoted for the next like 25 years of my life to that cause. Until this next chapter. So anyway, I've been out there. I've been out there in what I call the social profit world. Some people call it the non profit world, but I like calling it the social profit world because it creates a massive profit and the profit is social. And it's been a pleasure to be in that world because I learned a lot about money. You would think that's not exactly where you learn about money, but I did. So that's a little bit about how it all began.

Yeah. So what did you learn about money and how. Tell us a little bit about some of the core ideas of the book, how it showed up. I don't know. You know, share some of that with us and how it's impacted the people that you've shared it with.

Well, when you work on an issue like hunger, you're going to be working with people who are dramatically resource poor, living in abject poverty. At the same time, as I said, they're resilient, amazing actually. Incredible creative people. They have to be in order to stay alive. So. And the love for their families and their capacity for joy. And I'm thinking now of sub Saharan Africa, places like Ethiopia, Guinea Bissau, Gambia, Senegal, Ghana, Mozambique, South Africa, and also Bangladesh, India, Calcutta. The kind of thing you learn things someone like me who's been a privileged white person in the United States learns from people in those circumstances is you learn leadership skills. You wouldn't think that, but enormous leadership skills at almost insurmountable odds. People rise to positions of responsibility and leadership of their village, let's say.

Right.

So I learned a lot about resilience and courage and I learned about money because I also, working with people in resource poor conditions, raised hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars. When you're working on ending world hunger, that's one of the jobs you've got to fulfill. From people that I used to call rich. And when I say I don't, I used to call rich, I don't call them rich any longer because I realized they're whole and complete people too, living in the ebb and flow of financial circumstances there that are, you know, wonderful. Yes. But in all other ways it's looking, you know, have a lot of excess. And then people living in resource poor conditions are whole and complete. People living in resources that are less than they need. So. But these two opposites are both whole and complete people with beating hearts, with dreams, with wanting to take good care of their families, wanting to have a happy life, wanting to contribute, wanting to make a difference. And they aren't as different as I thought. The circumstances of financial wealth, which everybody wants, also can be quite challenging. You know, I now, as the head of the Soul of Money Institute, work with some of the world's wealthiest families. And in those families there, there's the kind of problems that most people have, get sometimes hugely amplified, amplified by the money. There's a lot of addiction problems, there's a lot of abandonment issues. It's not always just designer clothes and big houses. There's problems there too. So I've learned that money and us sometimes get collapsed in a way that we lose track of who we are. So working with some of the most resource poor people on earth and the resource wealthy people on earth, and then all of us in between on ending, not only the hunger of the body, malnutrition, starvation, the horrendous things that are happening to people on earth, but the hunger for meaning, the hunger to make a difference with our life, the hunger to matter, that's in the affluent world, really. That's the front and the back side of the hand of hunger, the lack of food and the lack of meaning. And they're actually one hunger rather than two. It's all related. And money, which I know is such a huge part of that picture, is a little bit the culprit for our relationship with money being so distorted sometimes, so almost bowing to money, making it the point of life rather than having money be an instrument that empowers and nourishes us so that we can have the kind of life we need, is one of the places where I've had the opportunity to work and really see some distortions that when we free ourselves from, begin to make life much easier, much more free, much more authentic, and much more appropriate.

So I was intrigued by the idea of that. And of course, I've been familiar with the Soul of money and the ideas behind it for a long time through you. And I was thinking in preparation for the show, like, okay, so what are my life sentences around money? And I was talking with my wife last night, I'm like, oh, I'm gonna have Lynn on the podcast tomorrow. And she's like, oh yeah, we all have complicated views on money and this notion of that there's actually enough and that we all have this other. And I'm like, okay, so my father's father was determined to die a millionaire, and he did die a millionaire, but at what looked to me like considerable pain and, like, emotional cost to get to that point. Obsessed with it, unable to enjoy it, determined to get to that number. Now, he grew up in the Depression, and as the family pulled together to make do, one of the things he had to do was with a sibling or two, move into a tent in the backyard while the grandparents moved into his room. Right. So that's where that came from. That, like, I am never going to be in this position. I'm always going to have enough. And then enough for him meant millionaire at death, right?

Yeah. Right.

I'd almost rather die, like, with my money just disappearing by the time I'm dead. If somehow you can work that out personally, then my dad was like, no way am I going to play the game that my poor dad played. I'm never going to think about money.

Oh, my gosh.

And so he was like, I don't want to be bothered with it. I don't. Whatever. And he would go through boom and bust and that kind of thing, and it contributed to his decline, you know, in his later years of his life. And, in fact, those two were in this enormous battle with my dad really needing money, and my grandfather would not give him anything at the end. I don't know if the money would have actually helped my dad, but, you know, but there's all this kind of thing. Then my father. My mother's father had a whole separate kind of thing about money. And then my mom had her own thing. So I have all these, like, influences around money, right?

Oh, wow. Yeah. Well, most people do, and they're. It's almost like clogging the system because so many of what I call life sentences or, you know, you. The best things, like, are free or money's evil or, you know, we have all these thoughts that come from the grandfathers, the fathers, the mothers. And so we're not. We don't have a lot of freedom. We're in sort of the prison of other people's thinking around money. So that's. That's one of the big problems that most people have.

Yes. So these are like my own inherited conversations around money. It's this or that. And then I try desperately to be free of them all, and I don't really know what mine is. I'm like, okay, I'm not going to play that game. And then I wake up and I see myself playing one version or the other at some point or another.

Well, one of the things that I love to share, that I discovered, and I think this really helpful for me, is that we swim in a money culture that has so much anxiety and upset and invalidation and greed and confusion in it. The culture, I mean, right, that personalize it. And we think it's. We think those problems belong to us and it's actually in the money culture. The money culture itself is very, very unhealthy. Sort of a toxic soup that we all, you know, imbibe or really that we swim in. And, and so these, we've made what I call so many cultural mistakes with money. In the culture of money, in the consumer culture and the commercialization, modifying of everything that we've. We. We created all this suffering and the suffering is in the culture. And then we personalize it. Everybody's anxious about money. Everybody suffers around money, even the wealthiest people. Everybody thinks they did something wrong. Everybody thinks they should have done something they didn't do or they didn't have. Shouldn't have done something they did to. Everybody's like that. I have not met people who do not have money woes and work with multi billionaires. They have money woes too. I mean, they can hardly sleep if the stock market goes down. So I realized that Buddha, who we all know is pretty wise, said 2,000 years ago, the source of all suffering is a lie. Source of all suffering is a lie. And so I started to look at what are the lies our culture tells about money, because maybe that's the source of our suffering. A couple of the obvious ones, I'm just going to say. One is that we forgot that we invented it.

That we invented money.

Yeah, we invented it. I mean, pennies do not rain from heaven. Money does not grow on trees. We made it up. We made it up and we made it up. Money Historians say 4,500 years ago, about or 3,500 years ago, somewhere in there, there are money historians who look at this stuff. And we invented it to ensure that everyone in the village or the community where we lived at the time had what they needed. Because if it was all barter and you were the pig farmer and I was the cobbler, if your shoes didn't need fixing, then I was up a creek. If I needed a pig, I'd have to go fix the shoes of the corn farmer who would give me the corn, and then I'd give you the corn and you'd give me a pig. But it was just so complicated that we invented money actually for the purpose to make all that easier to make sure everybody had what they needed and that everybody was taken care of. So that was the original purpose of money. And now, you know, thousands of years later with all these financial instruments and interest and derivatives and da, da, da, da. Now the point of everybody's livelihood is to make money, rather than money being what we use to empower everybody to have a livelihood of their dreams. So it's. We've. We've become at the effect of our own creation. We've forgotten we invented this stuff. We think it's more important than the natural world, more important than human life. We've made it. We've assigned it so much meaning that we're at the effect of it. And that's a lie. I mean, we just know that's not true. You know, one of the lies we tell about money is that when, you know, we assigned it not only financial value, but spiritual, psychological, emotional value. So we've made it more important than human life. And we know that's a lie. You and I know that's a lie. Everybody listening knows that's a lie. We've made it more important than the. We've given it more meaning than the natural world. Everybody knows that's a lie. But we cut down a rainforest for money. We pollute the river from which our grandchildren will drink for money if there's enough benefit, financial benefit. You know, we look the other way. We know that's a lie. It's not more important than human life. And we've made it more important really, than spirit or God, if people believe in God. We turn Sunday morning into the biggest shopping day of the week rather than the time when we. We close stores, you know, a Sabbath. So we've lost our way with money and we're at the effect of our own creation. And just knowing that for me is helpful because if I realize that the anxiety, the suffering is in the culture of money, I don't have to buy into that. I can free myself from that, live my life in a way that I don't get so hooked by that. So that's one aspect of it.

Well, so let me tie it back to something that's a regular kind of thing for our, for our clients. Right. And, and I'm sure it'll be of interest to our, our leaders as well. So two of the big things that we work with in strategy for companies of the sort of core five things that we do in strategy are purpose and bhag. So purpose, like related to vision and mission for a company is the difference you're making in the world. Except when we use purpose rather than those other things, we end up with something that's unending, right? So if the purpose of our business is helping leaders build a better world, right. There's no end to better and there's no end to leaders, right? So it's not like a particular thing, but. But the other thing that we do is the bhag. So the bhag is Jim Collins phrase for the big hairy, audacious goal. And we typically have teams set bhags at about 10 years out. And time and again, the first thing they throw out is a dollar figure, right? Most people we work with are in the US but so a currency figure they throw out and they say, great, it's $100 million that we want to hit in 10 years. And that's, you know, that's why we're hiring you and paying you money in like that. And I said, that's great and that might matter to you and inspire you and probably for your issues around money and that kind of thing. And I had one entrepreneur telling me recently, well, it's 100 million. That's the number. And because I got one life to live and you know, I just need, I need to go for that, right? And so they often come up with that. I'm like, that'll matter to you. And maybe a couple of business partners who have equity positions or something like that in the company. And even that may not be sufficient or sustaining. And as you start to get approach it, it may have less and less value for you, except actually just sort of hitting the milestone. But if we take that and we connect that back to the purpose. So if I say I wanted to be an X million dollar company in some years and my purpose was helping leaders build a better world, I would just look at if I was that, how many leaders would I have impacted, right? So for mine, my 30 year BHAG, I have a little bit longer one because it fit with turning 80. I wanted to help 5 million leaders build a better world.

Wow, good for you.

And you know, sometimes when I say that I'm excited, sometimes I'm emotional. And today when I share it, I'm just moved by the magnitude of that. So how did I come up with that number? Well, it just was a big enough number that I was proud to give my life to it. Right. To spend my time in service of that. Right. And I work with leaders who all have all kinds of different visions of something. And Laurie was talking with me, my Wife Lori was talking with me again about this show and this relationship. Like, is it ever enough? Do we need to produce more stuff? And I'm like, well, if I'm helping leaders build a better world, it's not about production and consumption so much as efficiency or contribution. So, like, I was thinking about one, and I was on the phone earlier this morning with an executive who is with a growing company that sends auto mechanics to body shops and paint shops and things like that, so that when your car gets damaged, instead of sending that vehicle back and forth to a dealership, they do that. So that's not really about consumption in this case. It's about repairing something in a more efficient fashion. So we like to talk about riches and the niches, right? So they're making money by doing something that makes the world a little bit better. It saves a little time. It puts you back in your car. It makes it a little better for the insurance company, right? It's not saving a life in that regard, except it's just a little bit more efficient, right? So we translate in their case, from a dollar figure that the founder likes to hit to problem solve. They solve problems, right? And they pride themselves in solving problems. And so that's, I think that kind of goes if purpose, right? And I. When you talk about the soul of money, I think about putting my money to work for things, having money flow through me for things that matter to me. That's the soul. That's my purpose. And companies rarely start with why. If you think about Simon Sinek's work that we often cite, and Simon, that we love that purpose that hits in the deep brain, that emotional center that propels us into action for things that we care deeply about that purpose. The why of our work is one and then something that many leaders do. And I usually find some number less than 20% in a room. If I ask leaders and entrepreneurs, how many of you know the purpose of your life? Very few have an answer to that question. And people go in search of it, right? They go all over the world. I'm going to go to Bali and I'm going to find the purpose of my life. And they don't realize it's something for them to make up. It's something to invent, right? Free of whatever they thought their life was about, to just actually invent and create, right? So the purpose of my life is making a difference. And I know you have some version of something like that that you have as well. And I think then when money is in service of that, it's powerful.

Yeah, exactly. So when you got moved right there, that was really, really important moment for this particular podcast, I'll say, because when we're in touch with why we're here, why we're here, Simon would say, but I'm saying it's just the way you did, why I'm on this planet, what is my unique contribution? Because there's nothing more satisfying than making a difference with your life. A billion dollars is not as satisfying as making a difference with your life. And when you're making a difference with your life, when you know you matter, when you know you're having a impact that's of service, it moves the core of who you are. That's where true prosperity lives. That's when we're prospering. Prosperity is about prospering. It's not about accumulating. And, you know, it makes a lot of sense to make money so that you can make a bigger impact. It makes a lot of sense to make money so that you can impact more leaders, 5 million leaders, so that you can actually run your podcast. So it's a means to an end rather than the end. And when we put money at the end rather than the means and put the means to the end, we reverse it. It's vapid. It's empty. It doesn't move us, nurture us. It doesn't truly motivate us. We're not inspired. And what people really want is to live a meaningful life. I mean, they want that so much more than they want anything else. But our money culture actually sort of brainwashes us to want more. More. More. More stuff, more money, more time, more sex, more this, more that, everything. More that is. That eclipses and actually takes our attention away from making a difference with what we already have. Making what we already have, our talent, our treasure, our love for the world. In your case, your business acumen, your capacity to support people, insight, your wisdom, that's what you have. And when we're sharing what we already have, rather than trying to get more of what we don't have, that's where true abundance lives. Because when we're sharing what we already have, when we're making a difference with what we already have, that expands. I use this phrase in my book, and I'll say it now, what we appreciate, appreciates. Appreciate, appreciates. If you think about, you know, what you really, really, really, really appreciate and what you know is making a difference. When you're making a difference and acknowledging and nourishing and sharing what you already have, it appreciates not only in value, but it actually expands. You can't do that to get more because that's kind of like cheating. I think the doorway, purely the doorway of the obsession with more, which is very useful in business to some extent. But when it becomes all about that and not about the higher purpose, which is what you just said, I'm just underlying what you just said. Then that portal, that doorway of more leads you then to lack and you need more again. And that portal of automatic, more automatic thinking, unconscious automatic drive, leads you to lack again once you get more, and then you need more again. But if it's really from the sufficiency, the fullness, the nourishment and the eagerness to share what you already have, the talent and treasure and innovation and creativity that is yours, then that's a natural expansion of what's already there. It's a sufficiency model rather than a scarcity model. And scarcity models always produce more scarcity, more for the moment, but then you need more. A sufficiency model grows naturally. It's like nature. And so that's why I say what you appreciate, appreciates. Make sense.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, so I think noticing what you appreciate is a beginning of an access to figuring out what you really care about and not being so driven to solve a problem. Right. And we all have problems from time to time and things to work on, but that sort of core problem of there's not enough or I'm not enough, and that whole kind of thing that drives us in many cases and ultimately leads you chasing something and never satisfied and never able to appreciate that. And I think we see this all the time with leaders who are driven and powerful, effective people with energy and strength of conviction and like, that kind of thing. I can think of one guy immediately came to mind as you were talking to me who approached me after a workshop and I don't know, maybe a year ago, and he's like, I always struggle with this whole thing. And I just, I feel like, so it's financial freedom. And he said, but I know that, I mean, that's why I do my business. And I know that, like, that's because I came from a poor family and I just didn't want to be that way. And I'm like, yeah. So I think the thing to think about is what do you love? Like, what do you appreciate right out in the world around you and what do you care about? And so financial freedom is. That's. That there's nothing wrong with that. But how do you. What Would you give away? What do you wish for? Everyone, not just for you. Not what's not about your survival, but your wish for humanity. And what would you spend your time and energy on if you weren't trying to survive? And that's a more interesting question. Right? And maybe it's like he wants everyone to have peace of mind.

Right? Well, it's just like you said earlier, you know, your life is about making a difference rather than making a buck. And if you're making a difference, it's so incredible when people get in touch with who they really are and they discover almost a well of talent and treasure, I call it, that's the source of well being. A well of being which is the source of the word wealth. The word wealth comes from well being.

Yes.

Well of being is actually almost infinite. So our own personal wealth, if I look at it as the well of being, is infinite. When we're in touch with that, we're generative, we're innovative, we're creative, and what we're doing is serving. So when you get, when you gave the example of the business person, if the frame of reference is service, even if you're a bus driver, you know, I my husband Bill, when he, when he's in business school at Northwestern University, he used to take the bus to business school from our apartment downtown. And the guy on his bus, the bus he took every morning was this really jovial, jolly beautiful, you know, king size, African American guy who just. How's it going, Bill? Come on the bus, get out of the rain, get out of the snow. He knew everybody on his route. He made driving a bus the best experience people had in their day. And he was a bus driver. So, you know, whatever it is that we're doing, his interest was in serving people, making their day great, getting them to work safely and making them happy. And so he happened to do it through the vehicle of driving a bus. No matter what your profession is, no matter what your bhag is actually, if it is put in service of something larger than your own life starring you, larger than your own life starring you, first of all, you'll succeed because the universe loves that. And second of all, you'll have fun doing it. And third of all, you won't take more than is appropriate for yourself and the bounty will be of benefit to everybody around you. Your children, your family, your friends, your community and your world. That's the overflowing nature of wealth that actually is acquired in service of something larger than someone's life. That wealth is always an overflowing bounty of what I'll call Thanksgiving that becomes available to not just you, but to the world around you. Oprah's an example of that. So, you know, Oprah, dirt poor, her mother was 13, 14 when she was born. You know, everybody knows her story. And once she became wealthy, she was so shocked by it, she realized, this isn't for me. I mean, I've been taking care of, you know, millions of dollars ago. This is for the world, and I'm going to make such a difference with this money. She's such an icon for me because I was just on her show or just taped her show, and I interviewed. I mean, she interviewed me on the show and then I went to her house for dinner and interviewed her on money. And, you know, just the relationship that she has with that bounty allows it to keep flowing. Allows it to keep flowing because she knows she's a conduit rather than, you know, I have this phrase in my book, be known for what you allocate, not what you accumulate.

Oh, nice. Lovely.

Where, you know, you're known for that.

So let's. We're going to run out of time. So I just want to recap and connect in some things. I think what you're touching on is really powerful and I see it again and again with folks. If you'll figure out what you actually care about and you'll put your work in service of that, then the right kind of money will flow through you appropriately and you'll be able to put your money to work for good things. And you think about people like Oprah who have come from nothing and become. Or even John D. Rockefeller, who started very poor and became the richest man in modern history, four times wealthier than Bill Gates, our richest American today. Right. He believed very much he's a controversial character, for sure, classed in the robber barons and like that. But he believed profoundly in making as much money as he possibly could and then giving it all away. And he raised his kids with a lot of frugality. And so he's also somewhat controversial. But this notion of, look, you have your motivation, but figure out what it is that you can share with everyone and you'll engage when there's a sort of a purpose centered thing there, something that you care about beyond the dollars it represents, then your vendors, your customers, the public, the media, everybody wants you to help, wants to help you get there. People are interested in that sort of higher calling, and the money is a vehicle to work that more efficiently. Instead of this obsession of something that you're trying to fix with yourself, right? Survive or like that.

I use a metaphor that might be useful for people to think about. Money is like water. I learned this from a woman in Harlem. Actually. It's when it, when it flows in service, it purifies, it cleanses, it nourishes, it makes things grow. But when it's hoarded in hell, just like water, water in a selfish way, water, when it's held and hoarded, becomes stagnant and toxic to those who are holding it. So money's like that, you know, it can carry greed and envy and jealousy and control, or it can carry love and nourishment and commitment and courage. It is a carrier. It's innocent. It's how we relate to money. Our relationship with money is where we have real power to transform our life and to have money be in service of what we truly care about. And when we, when we relate to money that way, it gives our life a kind of integrity and a kind of wholeness that makes the experience of true wealth really, really satisfying rather than something that like your, your grandfather, you know, died with a million dollars, but miserable. Nobody wants that.

So let me share with our listeners a few, and viewers a few of the things. So you were recently on the Super Soul Sunday, you just were with Oprah and you've got an E course coming up with Brother David on the transformative power of self sufficiency and gratefulness. And of course I'm, and especially my wife Connect, connected with you currently with the Pachamama alliance and working through in particular how to navigate today's political landscape for the things that you care about. And you've got groups that you're taking to the Amazon. And I think this is something to highly recommend to people. If you'd like something to expand your view of reality and your worldview and your connection to the earth, go on a trip with Lynn or her folks to the Amazon and see what happens to you on that. I know it's a life altering thing.

Commercial about that because one of the things that we think the forest teaches, the Amazon rainforest teaches, is the power of the balance of collaboration and competition for business. And the indigenous people are so clear about that. And so it's almost like an executive leadership program to go to the Amazon and we make it that way. So we're, we're really looking for executive leaders who want to really learn from the natural world and from indigenous people. The kind of leadership skills you're never going to learn in business school but can be applied to business. So I just want to do a little commercial for that.

Oh absolutely. So I'm going to put links to all these things in the show notes, in the show notes and in the comments down below the video here so you can get and go right to that. Of course, the book is the Soul of Money. Put a link to that. We'll put a link to your projects and and the groups there and people can go read more. It's been a fascinating conversation and I hope it really expands the minds of folks and propels them into their week and weekend ahead and and makes a real difference. Thanks so much for spending some time with me today.

Thanks so much Bill. It was a joy and a delight. Thank you.

Are you ready to turn your goals into daily wins? You should check out our Scoreboard software Powered by Alignment, it's the official software for scaling up. With Scoreboard, you'll get an AI driven coach for priorities and KPIs and it'll help keep your team focused on what matters most. With Align, you can track your goals in real time and you'll even see results on the go. With their mobile app you can rest easy knowing that Align has world class onboarding and support to set your team up for success. This is really more than just software, it's what I actually use to manage growth. Our scaling up client teams unlock clarity and results with Scoreboard by Aligned. To try it now, go to aligntoday.com Bill G One more time. Aligntoday.com Bill G that's aligntoday.com Bill G Check it out and try it now.