078: Deb Gabor - Be The Best Brand in the World!

Are you thinking about how to grow your business with near and offshore staffing, but you're also wanting to make sure that it's reliable, cost effective and really well done? I think docsa talent is the way to go. Here's why. They don't just fill your jobs. They bring integrity, top talent, and a people first approach that's hard to find. I've known the people at Doxa talent for over 20 years now and I say that you can count on them. I have. Talk to docs of Talent and you won't be disappointed. Go to docsatant.com Bill G. Again, that's doxatallent.com Bill G. One more time. Doxatallent.com bill G. Check it out today. All right. The best brands in the world make you feel like a hero. The best brands in the world make you feel powerful, sexy, invincible. And you can be like those best brands in the world. We're going to tell you how to do that today. Hello and welcome again to the Scaling Business Podcast. I'm your host, Gazelle's business growth coach, Bill Gallagher. On the show with us today, Deb Gabor. Deb is a branding expert. She's an entrepreneur. She's a speaker at our Fortune growth summits, our scaling up summits with gazelles. And she's going to tell us today some of the brand secrets, the methods to apply to become a brand expert, to develop a powerful brand. And this is for both B2B and B2C. So if you're like, oh, branding is just for consumer brands. Nope. Powerful brands are also B2B brands. And we want to give you the tools and ways of thinking to develop yourself into a more powerful brand. Welcome to the show, Deb.

Hey, thank you. I'm glad to be here.

So you're also more recent empty nester and you live in Austin?

Yeah, yeah, I live in Austin. 300 sunny days a year, the best barbecue west of the Mississippi. And I live alone now in a condo with a dog and a cat. It's awesome.

Yeah, it's a new chapter of life when the kids move out. Can redesign how you're living and make some new choices.

Yep. Definitely had sort of a deep existential crisis when my daughter decided to take off to college. And I thought, how am I going to spend the second half of my life? Well, I'm spending it as the brand dominatrix.

So your talk and your thing, branding is sex is your world. Right. And so we're going to talk people about how to be sexy in Every sense of the word as a brand. And so tell us before we get into the core of it, it always, the origin story is always pretty relevant. How do you arrive at the world of branding? Tell us how you got here.

So when I was an undergrad, I started out wanting to be a doctor. I think I started out wanting to please my father as being a doctor. You know, growing up in sort of the traditional Midwestern Jewish household, you know, we were either going to be doctors or lawyers. Definitely weren't going to be a rabbi. You know, my father said, rabbi, what kind of job is that for a nice Jewish girl? Nice Jewish boy. But so I started out with the idea that going to be a physician. I went to college and one semester in determined that I was really, really bad at all of the subjects that were required in order to go to medical school. Plus I got seriously grossed out by anything that involved blood or bodily fluids. So, you know, a semester into my undergraduate experience, I thought, what could I do? What really, really suits me? And I actually joined the communication department and decided I was going to learn about communication, I was going to learn about journalism, I was going to learn about. I started taking communication classes, I started taking business classes, marketing classes. I found myself as an undergrad participating in the business school in conjunction with the School of Communication. In an experience where Big Brand actually was. Procter and Gamble came to our university with a product they were looking to bring to market. And we created kind of a student run strategy and advertising agency. And out of that experience I worked with a team who brought this product that was from Procter and Gamble called Fruitopia to market.

Oh yeah, I remember.

Do you remember Fruitopia? Yeah, yeah. And so I became enamored with this process of understanding. So who's going to drink this and why are they going to drink this? And how is this particular product going to have meaning to this human being in their lives? And what's the story that this product is going to tell about them? Because there's so many, many choices of the kinds of drinks that people can have to refresh themselves that as a college student don't involve alcohol. I really wanted to dig into that and I literally.

Mixers.

Yeah, right. Well, so we found Fruitopia goes great with vodka.

Not so much skin, but everything goes great with vodka.

Hello, Totally. So a sonic slushie goes great with vodka too, as I determined. But anyway, I became obsessed with this notion of consumer behavior, with the idea of attitudes, ideas about the stories of people's lives and how Products and brands fit into their lives and was always really fascinated by that. When I finished college, I actually had the. I had the distinct pleasure of working for Chrysler Motors for a short period of time. And I worked in the service and parts division. And I had this crazy job where I called it, I sat on the blower and basically I took customer service calls. And in the car industry, what happens is when your car gets out of warranty, there's a big ray gun in space. They shoot down at your car, and they make your car go to shit. And then you have to pick up the phone and you have to call the company and fight for what three days ago would have been an in warranty repair. I was the person who was on the phone accepting those calls and routing those calls to the dealerships and then taking those calls and passing them on to the people who were sort of in charge of the service and parts division. And I started to see patterns. You know, I started to see patterns both in consumer attitudes and behaviors and expectations and the relationship that Chrysler and all of its brands was maintaining with the consumers. And then I also started to see. I started to see patterns just in when things were breaking down and when certain products were starting to go out of warranty and start to have failures and things like that. And so, if you can imagine, it was a little bit of this, sort of a cross between A Beautiful Mind and Rain man. When I start to see, like, all of these patterns merge. And in my mind, I don't know what to do with all that information, but I start to see patterns. And instead of, like, looking to the product, I look to the human beings involved. And so that's really where I started to get obsessed with branding. So fast forward a couple of years, I want to leave my hometown of Cincinnati, Ohio. It's a great place to be from, but, you know, not a super place to have a real great career where you can stretch your legs. So I moved to Chicago and I took another corporate job where I worked for AT&T in Bell Labs. And for seven years, I worked at AT&T Bell Labs. I worked around, you know, all the.

Places you could work at AT&T. Bell Labs is cool as shit. Like, it is totally cool as shit. Yeah, Bell Labs was the shit.

So it was totally the shit. And the best thing about that was I was working among people who were winning Nobel Prizes, right? And I was working around people who weren't just inventing better mousetraps, they were inventing mice, and they were inventing, like, new Animals to trap and things like that. And so while it was really inspiring to how technology was being designed and built from the inside out, I was always really curious about where does the buyer for this idea come in. Again, seeing it from the point of view of my obsession with consumers and with their stories and with business buyers and things like that. Then on the other side, this really amazing head turning, groundbreaking technology created by some of the most famous scientists in the world, and going through the process of helping this company commercialize those technologies, it started to gel in my mind what my singular important role to the world was. And that was to try to make sense of this. Right.

So let me pause for there for a second because I am like suddenly brought. And I think you'll have an interesting perspective on this from a brand standpoint. So I'm born in 64, right? 53 as we speak. I'm 53 and I grew up in a time where Detroit and Bell Labs and a couple other companies sold us a vision of the future. Gm, Ford, Chrysler, they rolled out Xerox, Kodak.

I mean, you had those.

Yeah. But those in particular rolled out the most fantastic concept cars one after another. Right. But then they shipped us the Nova and the Pinto and the all the other crap. It was pure crap until in some places there was a break and people started buying Japanese and German cars. The same thing. True. AT&T, I led a part of Sprint's business back in the day. We're very much competitive. AT&T was a company that through Bell Labs, sold us a vision of the future of fantastic video phones and things. Very Jetson's vision of the future. You could go to Epcot center and you could experience in the world of tomorrow and like that in Disney World and Epcot. But in reality, you had a black effing phone. And it wasn't until Apple came along and said, okay, here's video calling. And others came along and said, here's like in your phone, in your hand. And Tesla is the first one to produce something that feels like a concept car. Right. Was supposed to. You walk in that dash and it looks like that and the handles come out and then somebody hits the accelerator and your neck snaps back and you're like, oh, this is the kind of car GM showed us and never sold us. And I think there's something about a brand selling one thing and delivering another. I don't know, what does that bring up anything for you? It's sort of an unplanned thing. Right.

But yeah, it actually brings up Two thoughts for me, the first one really is about. The first one is about that the best, most sustainable brands in the world are the ones who create and convey a vision for the future and then actually deliver on that promise. So that's one. Right. Which Apple's done a really good job of doing. The second piece of that is that true disruption comes from outside your industry. Right. And the idea that the real changes that take place to business models generally don't come from inside the industry. You know, look, for instance, Kodak took. Kodak invented digital photography. Right, Right. And while they, you know, while they were the smart scientists at Kodak up in Rochester were, you know, working on digital photography, they were digging in and investing really hard in making improvements to physical film processing. While companies like Apple and, you know, the cell phone companies were, well, the.

Xerox PARC group did all that work in UI and the way computers work that Apple then brought to market. Right?

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Or, you know, look at, I look at Uber, for instance, you know, that business model, like they didn't create that business model. Lyft created the business model. Uber came in and actually like, you know, made it happen. And so I work a lot in the food industry. Food retail, online food content, digital media and food, things like that. The biggest disruptions that are happening to the food industry are happening from outside of grocery, happening from outside of the food producers. It's all happening in the world of how do people procure and access food, how do they get inspired by food? What is the entire food influence life cycle? So, you know, this is an example of companies that are sort of asleep at the wheel, right? And the automobile companies you mentioned, Tesla, like, talk about disruption coming from a really unexpected place. And so, you know, the two things, like the really, really great brands, the ones that are worth the most and the ones for whom the brand contributes the most financially to the overall value of the company, both through goodwill and equity, but more importantly through awareness and a large footprint. Those are brands that have very clearly conveyed a vision for the future and some macro steps for how they're going to deliver on that promise of the future. And so when you mention that, like what happened with the automobile makers and what we grew up thinking as being very, very Jetsons, like, and things like that, we had a bunch of companies there that didn't fulfill their promise to us, the broken brand promise, if you will.

Yeah, okay, good. So back to this, because I think it is talking about making promises, creating a powerful vision for the future, but then actually fulfilling on that, right? And I had a guru years ago, a family friend. He was co author with my dad, Jay Levinson, who talked about and distinguished brand identity from brand image. He's like, image is like a Hollywood set. Like you knock it over and there's nothing behind it, right? It's the facade of the building, but your identity is who you actually are behind the COVID right? He's like, focus on that brand identity, not just the image.

So you asked me before this interview if there was like a really good tidy definition of brand. And so that construct of the brand being made up of two parts being the image and the identity. This is how I always think about it and this is how I want other people to think about it is the idea that brand or be branded, like you don't own your brand, your customers own your brand. And if you think of a brand as having two parts, the entire brand construct, one part being the identity, the other one being the image, this is how I look at those two things. You're exactly right. I just want to add a little more color and texture to that. The brand image is the part that your customer owns. It is the reflection back on you. It's their perception, it's their relationship with you. Most importantly, it's their immediate experience with you. The brand identity is the part that you own and that you control and is the part that is about how you show up. The interesting thing is you can't separate those two parts of the construct from each other. They are indelibly intertwined. And if you don't manage both of them and you don't include your customers in the development of the brand, you leave your brand up to the control of your customers. So when I think about organizations that have a broken brand promise, it's usually because they've left their brand up to their customers or even their employees devices. So example, you know, over the last year I became the world's resident authority on botched corporate apologies, thank you to companies like United Airlines. Fly the friendly frickin skies, right? You know, they pull a doctor off the plane kicking and screaming, there's blood, it's anything but fly the friendly skies. How they left their brand up to the audience's own devices, where they like left their image out of control was when that thing happened. And then 48 hours passed before their CEO issued a statement. And the statement he issued was 140 character tweet that was clearly written by attorneys that didn't express any regard at all for the humans that were involved in this situation, you know, that's how you break a brand promise. Now, the interesting sort of coda to that story is the fact that, you know, three weeks later, United Airlines made an earnings announcement and profits were higher than they'd ever been. So there are some brands that can weather that kind of storm. But when you leave your brand up to the audience to manage its image.

I don't think the brand weathered the storm. The company weathered the storm. The company is making money, right?

The company is the brand.

Yeah, but our image, expectation, our notion, our idea of who United is. Look, United is the unfortunate carrier that you fly because they're so ubiquitous, they're so pervasive that you or they have.

A monopoly on your route, on the.

Route that you need to get to. It takes so much work to fly somebody else, but if you fly a handful of other carriers on international or domestic routes, you're like, there's almost any way that's better to fly than United.

Actually, no. So the interesting thing about the airlines is, like, this is an industry where the functional benefits of every single freaking carrier are exactly the same. The functional benefits meaning what it does, how it functions, what the experience is. They're almost all the same, with the exception of a few standouts. I flew Virgin America to San Francisco the other day. The experience of flying on there, it seems differentiated. It seems singular, it seems unique. JetBlue is another one. Southwest is another one. Good or bad, you may. You know, Southwest is very, very divisive, especially here in Texas. But. But the thing is, the functional benefits of an airline, the. The baseline requirements to be an airline are all the same, and the carriers are. Are just sa those basic baseline needs. The airlines that stand out from a brand perspective are the ones that create a singular experience that you can't get anywhere else. They make themselves indispensable, not through offering the baseline requirements better, but by making their customer feel like a hero. Does that make sense?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it does. It does.

And United Airlines. And so, you know, and I'm sorry to interrupt you, just back to this idea of the image and the identity not being separable. So United Airlines. United Airlines. The company is the brand. And that's the main point that I want to make here. Here is that you are your brand. Your company includes your customers. You are an entire ecosystem. Your brand, your company includes not only your customers, it includes your employees. It also includes the vendors that you do business with. It includes the channel that you sell through the experience of how customers relate to your brand and how they access every aspect of your company is part of the brand. And where companies make the mistake on branding is when they separate the image from the identity. When they say, this is how we show up in the market, but this is how we behave. And they're two different things. That's when brands break their promises to customers, when you don't deliver, where image doesn't match substance or substance doesn't match image, that's where you have a brand at risk.

So I think I'm following you and I don't think I disagree. That notion of. They say they fly the friendly skies, but I only fly them when I have to. I mean, I'm a premier exec flyer on Union United, on. I'm a super, super flyer on Southwest and Alaska and Virgin, right? So I'm like a jillion miles on everybody. And I love flying Alaska and Virgin because they're homey and connected. I end up flying Southwest more than anybody just because I'm in the west and I move around here. It's unavoidable. It's so much better than everything. But, you know, and at least I'm one of the first people on the plane because I fly so much, right?

So, you know, that's. It's an interesting thing about the. Because that's a place where choice is limited, right? When choice is limited, you sometimes remove some of the benefits that you can drive through branding. So if I have a choice, the same route, the same time frame, and I'm a business traveler like you, if I have a choice, the same route, the same time frame, and I have two airlines that maybe the price is like 30 to $50 different, I'm going to choose the airline, the one that makes me feel the most respected and the least. Like I'm showing up at the airport thinking, thinking, what the hell are you going to do to me today? Which is like the experience that I have of flying most of the time. So this recent trip to San Francisco, I think there was like a Delta flight that left about the same time, and then there was this Virgin flight. I was like, hell, yeah, I'm going to do the Virgin flight. Yes.

No, Virgin makes you. Virgin does leave you feeling sexy for some. Maybe a little too sexy, right? If you're uncomfortable with nightclubs or whatever it is like the nightclub in the sky.

I love it, though. I mean, it was a really respectful and differentiated experience. I mean, here we are a week later and we're still talking about it.

The big question, because Alaska bought Virgin America, is what's going to happen as they merge the two and they have a concept. I don't know where it's going to end up. I fly Alaska to Hawaii. I do a lot of work there. I used to fly Hawaii and now I fly Alaska. I also fly virgin on that route. But as they merge those two and try to draw a piece, it'll be interesting to see how that goes. Right?

Yeah. I'm watching with bated breath. I'm fascinated because those are two of my favorite brands in the travel industry. So I'm fascinated by that.

So tell a couple examples from your work. You have some examples. Let's do a B2B one, right? You talked about subcontractors, started to do some stuff and had a brand transformation. Why don't you tell that story?

Oh, yeah, that's really kind of a cool story. One of the objections that I get through this work, especially when I talk to businesses who have business customers, is, you know, like, we don't need branding. All of these decisions that buyers are making are based exclusively on, you know, do you have the right assortment, are you available, and are you either the lowest or at the approved price?

They think it's a rational decision, right?

They think it's. It's entirely a rational decision. I've done lots and lots of. I've done lots and lots of, you know, armchair research into this to, you know, beyond my own life experience and 27 years of, like, doing this shit. I've done tons of research to understand, like, you know, what actually goes on in people's brains when they make buying decisions. And a couple of things that I've Learned is that 98% of what the brain does happens outside of what you're aware of. Only 2% of brain function is happening in the parts of the brain that regulate things like, you know, speech detection and pattern recognition and language processing and things like that. And 95% of buying decisions happen because of emotions. And it's a really, really interesting. It's an interesting phenomenon. There's brain science and physiology behind that. But then when you look at the behavioral aspect of it, we always want to forget that people buy things from people, even people inside of businesses. And so, you know, this is a little case study. I worked with a company. They're an electrical, Electrical and data services subcontractor. They do both new commercial construction as well as ongoing maintenance. They work for other contractors. So, like, a large general contractor would get a contract, maybe with. Maybe with the state of Texas to build a gigantic building. And these Guys would be a sub to them. Okay. So it's this very convoluted B2B2B kind of relationship. Right. And the very interesting thing is their point of view was our business is just price driven. That's all there is to it. When we dug into the process to understand who their buyer was, we were able to target an ideal customer profile for them to say that the general contractor for whom they do the best work, where those relationships are the most profitable, where those relationships are worth the most over time, where they keep getting asked back by that same contractor again and again and again. That there was some, there was a pattern to it, that it was always the same kind of person, that the buyer was always telling a similar story about himself as a general contractor and as the decision maker there. And it wasn't just price, it came down to this. And I think that this is really fascinating and this is a really good, it's a case study, but then also commercial for B2B branding. So this company that does electrical and systems engineering, installation maintenance as a subcontractor for big commercial and public buildings, it sounds really, really unsexy. What they determined was their ideal customer was the general contractor who felt like when they built a building, they were building a structure of enduring value that was designed to not just be a building, but that building was designed to house people or teach people or empower people or give people their rights or help people have fun or whatever. That they were creating something that was going to have a legacy, that they were creating something that was going to have enduring value beyond just the value of the bricks and the sticks and the, and the ductwork and everything that was going to go into it, they found that when that GC was trying to create that story for their business, for their lives, that individual buyer within the general contractor, you know, when they were trying to. To make their mark on the world by creating buildings of enduring value, that's when they did their best business. We created an entire brand around that rather than we are the lowest priced contractor and we show up when we say we're going to and we don't drop tools and leave them on the job site and we clean up after themselves. Which is typically how contractors and subcontractors market themselves.

It's like value, safety, integrity. The those speak to some of the values or the how of the work that they're going to do, but the why of the work. The purpose driver and our listeners will be familiar with Simon Sinek and other purpose work and that kind of thing will hear that as well. At the core of that brand is the reason that they do what they do right, what they care about.

I'm a huge devotee of Simon Sinek's work and we actually one of the pieces of homework that we give our clients before we go in and actually do the hands on workshop, I make them watch the 18 minute version of the video so that I can kind of give them that purpose driven construct. But how we take that back to branding is like this is that if you believe that a brand is a magnet that draws customer to you, that magnet is designed to both convey here's our values and our beliefs as an organization so that we can attract people with similar values and beliefs back to us. Your brand needs to convey what those things are. And so that's why that purpose work is like really important that people really understand that. The reason that we introduce Simon Sinek honestly is to like give people kind of a mindset shift so that they understand, you know, for you personally, maybe this, this why, how, what scenario is more highly extensible for you as a human being and sort of helps you convey, you know, your purpose and passion as a person. Well, we take that it can be very, very transformative for brands because what you're doing with brands basically is identifying who is the person to purchase this thing, what is their purpose and how does your purpose align with their purpose. And that is the essence of branding.

You know, I always love this and I this is one of the things that I first do with companies that I work with. In the first two days of working together, we get a working why statement for the business and time and again I'll have a CEO that we begin working with who's like, oh, I don't know this why it's all mushy. And this isn't going to really. We're very B2B. It's very busy and they come up with the most beautiful statements and we just go through the process, the inquiry together and we come up with an expression of something, right? So you have somebody and he's like, ah, it's never. And then they come up with we keep the world working. And you're like, oh, it's a beautiful thing. And like immediately it goes boom. And you like, you know, and there is a process to doing that work but then it starts to infuse through the brain, right? You represent something.

Yeah. And I, and I think that that purpose work and that why statement for the business where the next step for that really is branding. And what branding does is brings customers into that conversation.

So I. And just as a correlate to this, I think that if you go around, well, any group, and you ask for a show of hands, who's got a purpose statement for their life, who knows the meaning of their life, the purpose, the why of their life, you'll have maybe 20% who've got their hands raised, right? And often less than that, who have a good answer. And many of those people just have a strong religious background because they've pledged to some particular religious orientation. And so a lot of times when I'll work with like YPO or EO or other groups on their retreats and things, things like that, one of the things we'll do is we'll do why work for people, individuals, and everybody comes up with a life statement of why. And I think this is true for all human beings, but especially for founders, CEOs, owners, you want to know your personal why, because it's so relevant to the company that you started well.

And the brand and the brand manifesto and the brand narrative and the brand positioning statement, the brand promise are all the company's why, why? Right? And you know, like you, not indirect coaching, but, you know, especially when I speak to large groups of, of CEOs, you know, speaking, I speak at a lot of these conferences where I'll be in a room with a thousand founders and CEOs of growth companies, you know, EO, YPO events, scaling up stuff, whatever. And I always ask the question, I'm like, how many of you have a brand manifesto that clearly expresses how you show up in the world, what your beliefs and values are? And it's really only about 5% who say that they have a brand manifesto. And I always issue the challenge to these groups of people. I say, I want you to go like, get on your phone right now, open up your company website, and tell me what the first word of the copy is. And 99 and 44, 100% of the time, the first word is we. And when your website copy starts with we or it starts with your company's business name, your customer is not getting an important enough seat at the table in the expression of your brand. And that is, you know, that that's a clear indication that you are not thinking about your business as a brand. And so, you know, it's very powerful what you're saying about knowing your purpose and having the why statement personally, as an individual. Your brand is your why statement for your organization. And it does more than just sort of anchor you, you internally and help you decide what are you going to do and what are you not going to do and help you make those kinds of choices and give you that focus. It acts as that magnet to express those values and beliefs that you want to draw to yourself as an organization. Because if you believe that your brand doesn't exist outside of your customers, then you can't go on without expressing what your promise is to those people.

So I transformed a company that I worked for years ago with the regular daily and weekly reading and review of the brand manifesto. Then we continually evolved that over the years as we went through permutations, iterations in the company, we evolved that statement. Today, when I work with clients, I'll usually have them create a manifesto early on in the process and then invite them to engage it in different ways. And one of the simplest ones is a daily reading where like a pledge of allegiance, somebody reads it. But unlike a pledge of allegiance, we ask people to react to it. How's that relevant? What does that mean to you today? What do you notice? A couple minutes, like two minutes literally spent on that a day has a massive transformative effect on the company. So we put into that, typically the purpose, the values, the brand, three brand promises and the BHAG are usually the big pieces that we'll put in the manifesto, and then it'll sometimes get massaged. But that is usually enough to really create a picture of something, something that the company's going for.

So I would challenge those companies to take it one step further, which is to bring customers into the conversation at that daily reading. So some of the things that I do with my clients when we are doing, we call it brand indoctrination, where we're basically bringing everyone in the company up to speed on the brand so that they can deliver on the brand promise with everything they do. And I believe whether you're the person emptying the waste baskets or answering the phone, or you're the person who's out there selling, or your customer support, customer success, or you're a software developer, you are delivering on the brand promise. And it's your job to understand how do you deliver that promise. But what I have my clients do, when we're in the brand indoctrination phase, I'll do things like I'm like, all right, bring the whole company in. We're going to train you on, we're going to reveal how we got here. Here's the brand promise, the brand positioning. We'll reveal all that language, and then I'LL break them up into groups and I'll get. Give them boxes of toy musical instruments or craft supplies. And I'll be like, all right, you guys go off. You have to write and perform a song about your customers for the rest of the company. Or my favorite.

I've met people cringe.

Oh, they cringe. But you know what? It's really memorable. Or I'll have them. I'm like, okay, here's a big piece of butcher paper. I want you to trace a human being on here, and your brand is your customer. Who is your ideal customer? Trace a person on your team. And then I want you to take the markers and I want you to draw what this person looks like and use these craft supplies. And, you know, maybe they're a person who's like, has. Has a very light heart. You know, they draw a heart on there and they glue feathers to it and they show it to each other and stuff like that. I can't. I can't under. Understate the importance of bringing the brand to life through the customer's eyes and through the customer experience. So, you know, the things that you're talking about that are the manifesto, those are things that sort of flow through into the brand manifesto. And so like that company manifesto, the brand manifesto, they're. The brand is almost the further extension of that, and the two are very, very related. And I think that the two dovetail really well. But, you know, when I'm working with growth companies, I find that they're really good at sort of expressing here's our purpose, you know, here's. Here's how we're going to deliver on that. Here's our value propositions or three brand promises and all that kind of stuff. But what they don't have is. And here's the essence and the core DNA of this brand and how customers will accept experience it.

Beautiful. So we're running out of time, but we've told people a lot about how to get started and how brands are valuable and important Even in a B2B environment, how they can make a difference, how to engage them, how to develop them and so on. There's a ton of more resources available on your site, brandingissex.com you can get a free chapter of the book there and tools and updates and all kinds of stuff like that. They should just go there and read more about it because I think if. If you've been engaged and intrigued by this whole conversation, if you're passionate about it or if you feel like it's missing and needed now in your business. Go to brandingisex.com and read all about Deb Gabor's work and like that. And then of course come back to us every week and you'll find the Scaling Up Business podcast on itunes, Stitcher, wherever the hell you get your podcasts and stimulation and you can listen to it in the car while you drive or on an airplane or wherever it works for you to listen to your podcast so something new every week. You also find it on our website where along with our blog updates and our weekly podcast we also have a download of a growth kit that you can get an overview of the Scaling up framework and then an overview of how to run leadership team meetings on a quarterly and annual basis and a whole bunch of worksheets to start to lead the process with your team even if you don't have a coach. So you'll find that all@scalingupbusiness.com once again it was great to have you. We look forward to hearing you and having you all back next week. And thanks Deb for joining the show.

Thank you.

Bye bye everyone.

Foreign.

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