087: Dave Baney - The 3x5 Coaching Method

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We need to coach people and not manage people. We've heard that one enough for a long time and we've heard there are principles to great coaching, but many of us doubt our ability to coach. Well, today's show is going to break down for you. Make it really simple to find a way to effectively coach your people. We call it the three by five method. So listen in for a simpler way to coach foreign. Hello and welcome again to the Scaling Up Business podcast. I'm your host, Business Growth coach Bill Gallagher. On the show with us today is Dave Behney. Dave lives in Las Vegas. I know him as a fellow Gazelles growth coach. He lives in Las Vegas but he works in the Chicagoland and Western Michigan areas and he brings a rich history and experience of both corporate and then in the corporate world as a coach coaching clients of these big corporate entities working for companies like Burger King and McDonald's, working with their small businesses helping them to grow. He works today with multi generational businesses for the most part where the the owner is involved in the operation of the business and and working on scaling it and he's a colorful guy. I'm really glad to have we're going to talk all about coaching, coaching style. Not like how we coach you necessarily. The principles are probably pretty similar but how you can become a better coach to the people on your team. How to develop your own coaching chops so that you can grow your folks. And we're going to hear all about his book and his approach the three by five Coach. Welcome to the show, Dave.

Thanks Bill. It's a pleasure to be here.

Yeah, really glad to have you on and always love to hear about different people's models and approaches for coaching. So it's a great topic and I think we're all hungry to become better coaches and less trying to manage people and move things around. Which I think is one of your core ideas, isn't it?

Absolutely. It's a critical piece. Everybody should stop managing and start coaching right away. After all, the word micromanage is in the dictionary. Micro coach, no such thing.

All right, so tell us before we get into the exact thing of the model and the principles for being a great coach. What? What? Tell us your story. Where'd you come from? How'd you get involved? You know, how did you come to this world and this emphasis?

Sure. I grew up in Niagara Falls, New York and was was very fortunate to to have a great family that engendered the principles of work and study. So as a kid, not only did I go to school, but I played a lot of sports as well as I always had a job, starting at 14 as a newspaper boy and then moving on to my first fast food experience at the age of 16 working for a company called the Red Barn, which most of your listeners will have never heard of. But if you can imagine McDonald's and KFC smashed together as one company, that's what the Red Barn was. And my senior year in high school at the age of 17, I was a part time manager running the restaurant two nights a week and one day on the weekends. From there, went to State University of New York at Fredonia, got a Bachelor of Science in Liberal Arts. I went to school initially thinking I wanted to be a Spanish teacher and quickly realized that I couldn't spend all day every day in a classroom. Upon graduation, I ended up at Burger King and spent 22 years there, both in corporate and field operations and marketing. Probably not a job you can think of that I didn't do. And I moved around a few times during that period, all in the United States. And then one day McDonald's called and convinced me that maybe I should come take a look at them and have conversations with them. I joined them and spent eight years with McDonald's, two years running the US marketing department, followed by two years running Latin America real estate and construction, and then got the job I ultimately wanted when I went to McDonald's, which was becoming the managing director for McDonald's Italy. It was a wonderful job. Loved living in Italy, loved working there, but learned how difficult it is to manage when you can't terminate people. And it sounds kind of silly in that nobody gets up in the morning and says, thank God I can terminate people, so I can manage. But when you cannot terminate people, you have to Figure out how to influence people to do their job. Because there is no termination policy in Italy, if I want you to leave my company, I effectively have to pay you to go away way. You don't want to do that very often. So you become much more careful about hiring and much more intentional about coaching so you can get the right result. And that was the beginning of understanding the difference between managing and coaching and the tools at your disposal based on the laws of the country. I ended up spending my last two years at McDonald's in worldwide menu management development develop products for countries around the world world and after 30 years in the business said, you know what? I think I want to do something for myself. And so I retired, played golf for about three months and then realized that I was bored to death. So I started coaching individual owners of businesses, but as a collective group of CEOs and CEO roundtables for Renaissance Executive Forums. And I did that for 10 years. But halfway through the 10 years I was introduced to the Gazelles concept and the tools and said, wow, this fits me like a glove. This is something I'm really, really comfortable with. And so for five years I did both Gazelles as well as Executive Forums. For the last four years I've been exclusively a Gazelle's coach. So for nine years now, my company, 55 Questions has been in existence to coach mid market privately held companies and the executive team of those companies. I've worked with over 50 different industries and I usually have about eight clients at a time. I want to be busy, but not so busy. There isn't time for life. My typical client engagement ends up being about three years. And the basic premise is to help the owner of the business achieve their aspirations, whatever those may be, whether it's to get rich, whether it's to provide opportunities for other people, or whether it's to retire and have a comfortable life or figure out how to pass the business along from one generation to the other. My goal is to help them achieve their aspirations. A little bit of personal background. I'm married. My wife Nanette also has her own business. She's been a cat sitter for 25 years. So people don't wait for work or on business or vacation. She goes to their house and feeds the cat and plays with the cat and does all the other things that need to be done. And she does that because, as she says, people can be a pain in the neck, but animals give you unconditional love. So she's doing what she wants to do. And I enjoy golfing and traveling and reading. And that's what keeps me busy when I'm not working. So hopefully that gives you a little sense of the crazy person on the other side of the microphone from you today.

You know, it's interesting. I hear so many common things in so many of our backgrounds in business, especially entrepreneurship. I hear things like a paper route and restaurant jobs and different selling jobs where there's some hustle in putting something unique together. And I learned so much from being a paper boy, right? The first was the need to get up early and to get your stuff together and nobody else to rely on you or to tell you what to do. That sort of self managing, self directed thing. Also in the critical need to be good at collecting to get people to answer the door, because if I didn't do that, you know, and then I wouldn't get paid. And I learned so much from restaurant jobs, right? I scooped ice cream, I was a busboy, I was a waiter, I was a prep cook, I was a dishwasher, I was a restaurant manager. I did all of those things. And I learned the importance of urgency, of waste, of being efficient. And it pains me today, in fact, I was in a restaurant just last night and I kept watching servers go back and forth without carrying something in one direction or somebody to get somebody else. And I'm like, oh my God, how are you ever going to manage anything? I saw a restaurant the other day and I said to my wife, this guy's never going to make it. Because the manager, owner of the restaurant, served us iced tea and then asked us if we wanted sweetener. And so you had to make two extra trips. And like, how are you ever going to survive if it's busy? If you ask for the ketchup after you deliver the burger, if you ask whether somebody wants sweetener after you've got to go twice the trips. And your efficiency of movement matters more than anything else. Or if you ask what somebody wants after they've had everything, you don't check back after it. All of those kinds of things, of anticipating what people want. There's so many great business lessons from it. And I wonder what happens to today's generation that may or may not grow up with some of these things. Where your fast food things were like high school jobs today, and my kids didn't do anything remotely like that going through high school. And so many of those jobs have become sort of permanent employment jobs for another sort of another socioeconomic strata today and created a whole new set of challenges and opportunities. But it just it's fascinating. Fascinating to me how much we learn from that experience and that we carry forward. When you're talking with people in other cultures, I know we have a ton of listeners. We have clients and listeners to the podcast all over the world. And I hear from people in Australia and Europe where they can't just lop off the bottom 10% of the team. They can't easily let go of their C player. So hiring and motivating and managing.

It.

Changes what you could do, the number of moves allowed to you as the head of the business, doesn't it?

Absolutely. And I've been gone from McDonald's for 10 years, so I don't know what the current statistic is, but here's a crazy statistic for you. Back 10 years ago, 1 out of 11 people in America at one point or another had worked at a McDonald's.

Wow.

So when you think about it, Besides the Army, McDonald's has been one of the largest training grounds for people in America. Just how to work, to take the responsibility and the discipline of showing up and doing your job and doing it the right way. Whether that is still one out of 11, I don't know. As I said, it's been 10 years since I've been there, but that truly was a statistic that they were very proud of.

It's fascinating. You know, there's a. I'm sure you've seen the movie, the Founder, right? I don't know how they feel about it, but I found it a really interesting movie. And one of the scenes that I'll show teams frequently, especially when we're talking about efficiency and fine tuning their operations, is the whole scene where they're. Where they're working out the layout and the flow of their production line on the playground, getting the kitchen organized on the playground, and all the different iterations they go through in the timing and how it works. That's a fantastic little scene to share with teams.

Yeah. And that part is completely true. Most of the movie is pretty true to form, but that part about the McDonald's brothers actually figuring out how to be the most efficient and effective organization that they could be for their restaurant without anybody else telling them what to do or how to do it. They just said, hey, if we're going to make money, we're in the business of a few pennies at a time and we've got to make sure we're effective with everything we do. They did a great job.

The speedy service system. Right. And then, of course, a lot of it improved. Then as the shift to real estate came into play and that notion of consistency I've been in. So I've. I visited 61 countries now for work or play, and I'm working on the hundred list. And there are many times when I'm a couple weeks into a trip or even a few days in, and the food is really challenging me, and I look for the golden arches as my refuge for a little easy eating. I probably will eat it more when I'm on the road than when I'm at home, because I'm looking for that familiar. And the thing that you can count on is consistency. Right. That's one of their promises.

And you're not alone in that. But here's the funny thing about the consistency piece.

Yeah.

In the United States, there's a recipe for the Big Mac.

Yeah.

And everybody knows that recipe. To all the patty special sauce, you get the drill.

Lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions.

You got it on a sesame seed bun. But in international settings, if you think about a coffee cupper or the brewer who tastes the beer at different points, or the wine connoisseur who determines are the grapes ready? McDonald's does much the same thing internationally when they enter a country. So they have the Big Mac made in the United States with US Products as the gold standard, and then they will use local products in different quantities to replicate the taste. And once they get the taste, these tasters say, yes, this formula here in Italy or Germany or wherever it is replicates the taste of Big Mac in the United States. That becomes the formula for that country. So the Big Mac is not exactly the same formula around the world, but it is intended to be the exact same taste.

Right. And that's the thing. You notice subtle differences, but the predominant experience is, oh, I'm in something familiar. I'm home, I'm home. Right. All right, so let's talk about the three by five coach method. What is that and what is it you talked about? The need to coach people to inspire and engage them differently than simply being able to say, you're not working out, you're out of here. So what is your three by five coaching method?

So I've always been amazed at the lack of energy and effort that goes into helping a person grow. We tend to look at people and say, oh, they're good, or they're not so good, as opposed to, well, is there anything we can do about that? And the simple question that I have been asking people for a long time is, how fast can a dog sled teach run and the answer is only as fast as the slowest dog. So if you had a dog sled team, you'd want to work with your team to be faster, but in particular you'd want to get all your dogs to run faster and get the slowest dogs up to the pace of the faster dogs. Let's apply that to people in businesses. Well, how fast can your team move? How fast can your business move? Only as fast as your slowest people. What are you doing to help them learn and grow? And when you start there and start to think about how we deal with employees, we tend not to think about coaching them, we tend to manage them. And the truth is we over manage them. And then the other piece that comes into it is, if you were a baseball coach or if you were directing a Broadway play, do you spend your time with the bench warmers or understudies or do you spend your time with the star players and star performers in the play? And the answer is the directors of plays and coaches of sports teams spend their time with the stars and do some coaching of the bench players to bring them along. But the expectation is we need to move faster. In business, we tend to work with our C players more often than our A's and B's because we say, well, the A's are fine, they're doing a good job, B's are getting there, they're pretty good. And we spend a lot of time with the Cs, sometimes working on things that can't be fixed. Yeah, I honestly believe most of the problem is misaligned expectations. I don't believe in most cases the coach formerly known as a manager and the team member formerly known as an employee have the same things in mind in terms of the goals and the outcomes. Everybody gets a job description.

So I notice that all the time. And I have a client that's done pretty well with growth but didn't often realize they were growing as well as they can. And we're actually growing. And I spent some time talking to a number of the members on the team and then I checked in with the senior leaders and what I realized is that there's all kinds of things that their team members want and they didn't have any idea about it. Maybe they wanted to buy a house or get married or start a family or etc, etc, go back to school or things like that and they're completely unaware of it. So they're not able to align the performance levels that they want with the personal wins of each of the people on their Team.

Absolutely. And then if you think about job descriptions, there may have been a time when job descriptions were written to help describe what I want you to do. But I honestly look at job descriptions today and say they're mostly legal documents and my favorite part of the job description is that laundry list of things that I'm expected to do and usually the last one says and other duties as may arise from time to time. Well, I think that's the perfect one to focus on. I'll take focus on doing that. Meanwhile, my boss wants me to do the first two or three, but I'm focused on the bottom three or four. Is it any wonder that we're both disappointed? I can't understand why you're giving me a hard time. You can't understand why I'm so inept in not doing the most important things. So the three by five coach is really about coach and team member sitting down to agree on what's really important. Stop micromanaging, start coaching. Spend time with your people and talk to them and know what you each expect. So here's how the process works. The coach and the team member each get a very high tech tool, a three by five card and a post it note on the front of the card.

It sounds complicated.

Oh God, it is. You know, if you can get a three by five card, a post it note and a pencil, you're in business. They each write separately, not sharing it yet on the front of the three by five card. What's the title of this position? And don't put the person's name on the card because this is about the job, not about the person initially. Flip the card over and write in priority order, what are the top five reasons a person in this role would get paid? So tell me the most important, the second most, third most, fourth most, fifth most. And for each one of those five reasons that you get paid, a performance of success. How do we know you're doing a good job? How many widgets should you make? How many widgets should you sell? What should be the efficiency of the job? Whatever the metrics are, depending on the role. And then you take the post it note and the employee puts his name on the front of it. And on the back of it they put down one or two things they want to do in the coming year for personal growth. Now personal growth could be get my mba. Personal growth could be learn to play the piano, whatever's important to you. It's the employee's choice of what they want for growth. Yep. Once the coach and the team member have done that. They get together in a little room with some blank post it notes and blank three by five cards and they share what they each wrote and they don't get to leave the room till they've agreed on one three by five card. In terms of the title, the top five reasons the person gets paid, and the performance metric that we're going to track. So now for the first time, most likely in that team member's career, he or she and their boss or coach are on the exact same page. They both have the same expectations of performance. They both know what's expected. And because there's a performance metric on any given Tuesday, I know how I'm doing. I said I was going to sell 30 things this month, it's the 15th of the month, I've sold eight, I'm behind and my boss knows it too. Or I've sold 17, I'm slightly ahead and my supervisor, my coach knows it too. So we're both on the same page. We know what the priorities are, we know the order of importance and we know what performance should look like. That's the most basic premise that's in here.

So let me, let me, let me just tie back and check in. So your 3x5 card is somewhat analogous. It's a higher level, simpler version and there's a negotiation or an alignment that happens in the process of it. But it's similar to our job scorecards that we create in the software or that we've talked about in prior shows. Yes, yes. Okay. So it's a summary version. And a key thing is that each person, the, the supervisor, boss, leader, head honcho, jefe, is tying theirs in to and negotiating and reconciling with the employees, the team members, and they're looking at their two different perspectives and they're getting aligned in that meeting and coming up with a common one. So included in that is the name of the job and the five major deliverables and the one or two key metrics.

Key metric for each one of the five deliverables.

Oh, for each.

Okay.

Plus one or two personal growth goals.

And so the one or two personal growth goals sounds to me like the work that we often do in summary or long form with our one page personal plan or some variation on that when we're in typically like the annual cycle.

Yes, correct.

But you're really looking for the high level thing, like just for the next year. What is one or two things that you want to focus on personally? Right.

Every week or every month. I prefer Weekly, but every month at a minimum, coach and team member sit down 15, 20 minutes to say, how we doing? What's going on? And not only do I want to check and see how they're doing on their five business goals, I want to ask them about those piano lessons or they're saving for the house or taking their mba. And if nothing else, it gives the team member a sense that I care and that I'm concerned. But equally important, I don't want you to fail on any of your goals, whether they're goals that affect the business or goals that affect your life. And so by providing that gentle pressure of regular check in to say, how's it going? How you doing? Not only on the work stuff, but on the personal stuff, the relationship deepens, the trust level deepens, and we don't let things slide too far. And then one day found out, well, Mary's no longer happy and she's leaving the company. If you and Mary develop a relationship by meeting on a frequent basis just for 15 minutes, it's amazing how sticky that relationship becomes and that people stay.

I think I hear another thing behind this as well, and that's that the whole notion of really long term employee is just becoming more and more uncommon in our world. For the most part, people are with us for a few years. I think we want to know what are they going to contribute to the long term effort in those couple years or however long it is with us, and what are they going to get out of it? And if we're both really clear about what they're getting out of it and what they're contributing to it, then there's a really clean relationship of the two. And we're both for our mutual self interest in the whole relationship. And we're not trying to pretend that we're some company from the past where everybody's going to be there for 20 years because the vast majority of people, no matter the level, just aren't that way anymore.

More right. You know, I'll take you back to, to my days when I was a region vice president for Burger King and I would sit down and talk to a franchisee and let's say this franchisee was 35 years old, 40 years old. And my first question was always the same when I first met them. What does retirement look like? And here's a four year old guy and my first question's about retirement. He kind of looks at me and says, well, you know, I think I'd like to move to Florida and be able to tuna fish Seven days a week. Cool. What's it cost to do that? I probably need $15 million. Okay. How many Burger Kings do you think you got to sell to get $15 million? He says, well, at least 20. Okay, so if you're going to sell 20 Burger Kings and you have what today? Well, I have four. So you need 16 more restaurants over the next. When do you want to retire? Well, I'd like to retire in 12 years. 16 more restaurants over the next 12 years? Yeah, I guess. Do you have the line of credit at the bank? Well, no, but I could get it. Okay. Do you have the sites picked out? No. So you're going to sacrifice your date or you're going to sacrifice your retirement plan? Something's got to give if you're not ready. But assume he figured that part out. Here was this tough question. So you've got four restaurants today, which means you probably have 16 to 20 managers working for you right now, right? Yes. Are those 16 to 20 people going to be your future district managers and restaurant managers? So in other words, the lowest level manager, who's the newest manager for you? Assistant manager for you at one of your restaurants. You see them as being a restaurant manager in the next three, four, five, six years? Oh, I don't think so. Well, why wouldn't you be hiring with the future in mind? If you've got ambitious plans to add a lot of restaurants, why wouldn't your newest assistant manager be someone you see potential in, that could be a restaurant manager down the road? Because at some point, your growth depends on your ability to grow people and develop people and hire the right people. And I look at this the same way. It's okay if people leave the company. You know what? Sometimes situations dictate that. But I'm a big believer in train no matter what. And some people say, well, what if I spend all this time and money training them and then they leave? And the corollary is, what if you just don't spend the time or money training them and they stay? So for me, it's all the same thing, no matter how you look at it. I don't know how long you'll be with me, but I know I want you to be the best you can be while you're with me. And when the day comes that you leave or I leave, I want you to look back fondly on that time and say, you know, that person really helped me get better, helped me onto my next step, help me achieve things I wanted to achieve in life. Because I don't Think there's any better compliment coming from a former employee than my previous boss? Really helped me grow, helped me learn, helped me become better. So creating that face to face time I think is critical.

You know, it's interesting. So one of the principles that I have of coaching for coaching is to look for the giant in people, to see people bigger than they see themselves. So there are times when somebody will say to you, I want to be the district manager, I want to run this business. But there are many times where somebody just wants to work real hard and they don't yet have fully formed a thing. And if you'll create a way of relating to them, a listening for who they are as a future they will live into and up to your expectations of them. And the same is true if you have diminished expectations of them. I don't really expect much from that guy or gal. They're not going anywhere. But if you see them as that future and you tell them, listen, I really see you as a whole, whole bunch. If you're ready to step up to it, then people, they swell up, they step up, they square their shoulders off and they engage the work differently than if you're just trying to get the best out of them moment by moment.

Absolutely. And to be honest, that's the next part. It's a beautiful lead in. Thank you to organizational development because let's assume you've got 20, 30 people in your organization and they all have three by five cards and the world's a happy place and you're doing 20 million doll in revenue, well, what are you going to be doing in five years? Oh, geez, I think we could be a $30 million company within five years. Okay, when you're a $30 million company, what changes to your organization have to take place? And if you take your 3 by 5 cards from your staff and lay them out on the floor, put them on a wall, put them on a giant conference room table in an org chart fashion, you can then take a different color. So let's say all of my existing 3 by 5 cards are one white. Now I take a pale yellow 3 by 5 card and write down new positions. I'm going to need. Hey, these four salespeople can't report to me anymore. I'm going to need a director of sales or I'm going to need to add one more operator, one more crane operator in the facility. Whatever the positions are that you need to add, develop 3 by 5 card for them before you've even thought about hiring them. But underneath that Title on the front of the card. Write down when you think you'll bring them on board. And that when is not a date. Time does not complicate this. Money does. So the when is, well, when we get to 23 million or 27 million or 30 million, we'll add these bodies. So now, as you lay these yellow cards in among your white cards, still looking like an org chart, you now know your future open positions. You know when you need to hire those people, when being based on volume. And now you can take all of your post it notes and say, let's relay the post it notes. Where do I see Jeremy going? Will Jeremy remain a salesman, a salesperson, or will he become my sales manager? And if Jeremy's going to become your sales manager, you now know in the next couple of years, when you get $5 million more in revenue, you're going to have Jeremy as a sales manager start to groom him. Today, on the other hand, Mark, you know what, he's going to remain a crane operator. He's never going to become the director of our operations. So now I need to think about, well, if I want to keep Mark engaged and keep Mark motivated, I have to start thinking about job enrichment for Mark. Since promotion isn't what's going to excite him. I need to keep him engaged, though, in his current role. And you can develop a game plan for engagement for Mark. And so your organization now has a game plan that says, here's what we're going to look like when we get to 30 million. Here are the changes in the structure, and here are the movement of people. So I'm not only going to promote Jeremy, but then I have to hire Jeremy's backup, a salesperson that's going to fill Jeremy's shoes. And so you develop your whole plan based on those three by five cards. Once you've laid them out, you know where you're headed and you know what you need to do. And now you have not only conversations about my job today, but opportunities for growth. And while I don't promise Jeremy the sales manager job, I talk to Jeremy about someday having more responsibility and starting to give him more responsibility and see how well he assumes that you start to develop your people. And one of my clients, they're in the midwest. They are a recycling company. And today it's the fourth generation running it. But the third generation was an extremely interesting group. It was a brother and sister and two brothers. The four of them were cousins, and they were the office of the president. And as they age, they decided someday we're going to have to pass this along to the next generation and it will most likely be one person. And that's when they engaged with me to talk about how the heck are we ever going to transition this business. And one of the big challenges when you run a relatively informal company is do your vice presidents really act like vice presidents? Do they really have the skill and talent you need to see them do the job? And how does one person assume the job that was held by four people before? And the fact that there were four people allowed you to get a little bit more involved with your next level than would be possible if you were only one? A heck of a transition process. We worked our way through it with the three by five card process, as well as the Rockefeller habits, which have now morphed into scaling up. And about 18 months ago, well, actually at this point, almost two years ago, the transition took place. I'm happy to say that 2016 was a record year for the company. 2017 beat 2016 and 2018. The plan is to grow even faster. During 2016, the four family members that were the former office of the President were looking in and keeping their hands on. In 2017, they developed the confidence and said, wow, these guys have picked up the ball. They're running with it. They know where they're going. And in 2018, I think they're going to take more vacations than they've ever taken before. And so I'm very proud of that organization and the work that they've done and the way they've managed it to work and happy to have contributed in some small way to their success. A very meaningful thing for them as a family and for the individuals who are now running the company as either the CEO or his direct reports.

So let's recap for our listeners before we run out of time. We don't want to manage people or micromanage them. We want to coach people, we want to lead them, we want to encourage them, we want to develop them. And we start off with a pair of three by five cards. The team member and the leader each, the coach each fill out what they think that job is titled and the five big deliverables of the job and the five KPIs that go along with it, the metrics that would determine success. And then they reconcile those two things until they get one picture. They also look at what are one or two things that the employee wants to do that year. Then as they reconcile that, they can begin to manage it. Meeting together on a weekly or monthly basis to review how things are going and where the person is developing or not in their job and how they're doing on their personal goal as well. Then the leader can take the three by five cards and lay them all out in an organizational fashion and begin to imagine which people move into which jobs as the company scales and which need to get backfilled as the company grows. So now we've got a whole thing that feeds into the development and management of the people. Yeah. Did I get it right?

You got it 100% right. I wish I would have said it that way myself.

All right. Well, Dave Behney, I want to thank you so much for being on the show, folks. The book is 3 by 4 Coach. The 3 by 5 Coach you'll find on Amazon, Kindle, etc. Wherever you get your books. And we'll put the link to that, of course, in the show notes as well. Thanks again, Dave for coming on the show and sharing some of your approach and wisdom. It's been a real pleasure to talk to you about this and expand thinking about the coaching and development of the team members.

Thanks an awful lot, Bill. I really appreciate the opportunity and I can't believe how quickly the time went right.

It always goes fast. Well, I want to really thank Dave for coming on the show. I think the show is valuable and helpful and I hope you get a lot out of it. Remember to understand what your people want and get an agreement about what it is that makes the job a success and then begin to see the progression of your people over time, giving them a pathway to grow and develop as long as they're with you. So that's the three by three coaching and you'll find the links to that right in the show notes. If you like the show, drop us a line, tell us what part of it, what difference it made for you. We love to hear getting the stories and feedback of what difference it makes for folks and if it was useful for you, maybe it's useful for someone else. So subscribe and then share the show to someone that you think could benefit from it as well. You'll find all of our shows and we bring a new one to you every week. You'll find all the shows and articles in the show notes for them at our website scalingupbusiness.com where you'll also find tools and tips and lessons for scaling up your business. I want to give special thanks to our guru and originator, Vern Harnish. Our show producer is Nai Obaid. Audio production is by podfi Productions Audio editing by Albert Burge Our Shono notes by Ayn Kodina and proofreading is done by Tim McGowan. If you got some value from the show today, please share it with somebody else and let us know what you loved. Thanks for listening and Keep Scaling Up.

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