089: Chuck Kocher - Transform Your Company in a Remarkable Way

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All right. Some people want to fix their company. Some people want to improve their company. Some people want to change it. Today's show is all about transforming your company. What if you wanted to 10x things that would require a real transformation, something unprecedented and not foreseen today is what's required. So how do you transform yourself? How do you transform the business? That's a subject of today's show with a longtime senior and highly experienced coach. Listen in. All right. Hello and welcome again to the Scaling Up Business Podcast. I'm your host, Gazelle's business coach, Bill Gallagher. On the show with me today is a fellow coach, Chuck Kocher, who deals in the world of transforming businesses is his focus. He's going to talk to us today about some of his experiences in that area and what it takes, the principles he thinks it takes to transform your business. So welcome to the show, Chuck.

Hey, Bill. Great to be here.

So, guys, Chuck is a longtime coach, business coach and business advisor. We'll get his story in just a second. He's in Colorado Springs today. He's got a couple kids who are a little older, not too far off my own. Right. 17 and 23, I think you said.

Yes. Mikhail is 17, Ryan is 23 and starting his big job out of college.

And so Chuck's a guy that also love outdoors as pretty much anybody who lives in Colorado Springs who's not bedridden would do. Right. And loves working with companies. His company is the Transformation Company. Give us a little bit of your background. Tell us who you are, how you got into this world. Tell us your story first before we get into how do you transform businesses?

Cool. Thanks, Bill. Yeah, you know, it's interesting. My life started on the east coast back in Jersey, New York area, the oldest of five and I was the first One in my family to actually go out and, you know, go to college, get the degree, if you will. My dad, I love them to death, worked in a post office. So, you know, we, we had love in our family, but we didn't have a lot of other things and, but I was gifted with the, not the willingness to, you know, he taught me, say, Chuck, learn, learn. Always be open to things. And the love that we got in our family was amazing. So I started back my corporate career back out of college was with an organization called Unisys. Oh yeah, yeah, right. You know, I'm dating myself a little bit actually was called Burroughs when I started. And my first mentor was the first manager I worked for out of college. He said, Chuck, what do you want to learn in your new job? And I said, everything. She goes, keep that the rest of your life and career. It'll bode you well. And so Charlotte Matthews was her name. Taught me an awful lot about manufacturing, of all things. And on my journey in corporate, I was cross functional. In other words, I crossed, I crossed a bunch of different areas in business. It wasn't just up one silo, if you will, manufacturing, marketing, distribution. Started running companies, little mini companies, 10, 20, 30, 40, $100 million companies. And then I had this amazing opportunity to get in and really start to think and learn and build companies within companies. And my mentor, Jim Butterworth, love him to death, still send him a thank you. And he goes, what for? Well, you taught me how to think, Jim. And it was kind of amazing because I was an executioner. I was great at run operations, scaling up, you know, business units from 20 to 80 million and such. But it was more executional, Bill. It was more on that kind of side of the equation. And Jim goes, I'm going to teach you how to think, Chuck. And I go, oh, really? You know, because I figured I had it all figured out. And Jim said, there's one thing that you don't have in your career. You're not connecting the dot from execution on up division and strategy. And so he challenged me for a couple of years and my head got twisted. It was like going from a, you know, Microsoft platform to Apple. And he just got twisted. And what he did is give me the gift of thinking. And he took me on a journey that challenged me, challenged everything I thought about, you know, running businesses. And his intention was because I was in a place to create things now and not just run businesses. And he had to teach me that thinking style, which was totally different from my earlier part of my career. So I started building lines of businesses, businesses within businesses, vertical markets that didn't exist. You know, teaching the Japanese engineers in that company. And I was with Oki Data on how to think about markets and not just the product. So it was an amazing journey, but it was also sparking the entrepreneurial piece in my mind. And of course, my wife Kit, who had another corporate career at a double corporate con, she said, you know, it was always like, how are we going to do that? You want to start a business? We're starting a family. We're both in corporate. We're used to that lifestyle. So lo and behold, I had an opportunity to move to Colorado. That's how we got here back in 99. And to a software company. But I was becoming unemployable, as many fellow entrepreneurs know what that's all about. And we moved out to Colorado. Bad timing. Tech crash 9 11. And they hired both of us into the same software company as executives. So that doesn't always happen, you know, that's a usually taboo or no, no. And about a year and a half in my wife, who's running the HR part of the organization, I was running a business unit, she gives me a call out of nowhere, and she goes, chuck, we're in a 14th downsizing. Would you like to go start your business? And it was like, yeah, but. And she goes, you got four, four or five years. I want to be a mom. I got my executive title and such. Go figure it out. So that's how I got out of the corporate piece in my life and had an opportunity to go through transformation, really create something. So I looked at buying, maybe joining a couple of organizations as partners, and nothing felt good. Every time I looked under the hood, it didn't feel good. And I literally stumbled upon business coaching. I got an email said, business coaching. Want to learn more about. I want to delete it. And boom, lo and behold, instead, something said, look at that. And it was a franchise model out of Australia and actually was a good way to start. I didn't have to create from ground zero, but I was also taught how to coach and really went to some great things with that organization. And back in that was 2002, and that was my lily transformation from the corporate side, if you will, into the entrepreneurial side. But there were a lot of pains there as I grew into that area. It was an acquired taste, something that I had thought about, if you will. But what happened for me is it besides the acquired taste piece that I was going through and becoming a business Coach in life. I was going through the same thing. I was trying to figure out what the. What the why was, what the meaning of life was, you know, in from my perspective. And the ironic thing is both of those lined up perfectly. I love what I do. It is my life calling and it's taken the skills and the gifts that have been given and blessed with to use in life. So that little journey from 2002 to about 2007, you know, I went through that cycle and then I really started attracting amazing companies, high growth companies, not just small businesses that were on that journey. And so my coaching really took on a different look and feel. I connected with the skit well back then, the Rockefeller habits and now scaling up and with Vern's tools and was using them, you know, using the book, and then said, you know, I got to get to know these guys. So I came in and Bill, I think there were 25, 26 coaches, and I think we're over, what, 250 now, globally. So I came into the early stage, began using those tools to help take organizations through transformation. And as we sit in 2018, I've got a global practice, I teach online, the scaling up methodologies in the Growth Institute and then have a whole clientele in Colorado and around the globe. So it's been an amazing journey. I have had to transform as a human being, as a leader. Had to knock the. I want to call the consultant out of me from the corporate side in becoming a coach. And I am constantly learning and growing like I know you do. I think last year we. We did a calculation. I was just curious how many hours I spent in learning and development. It was 252 hours last year. And to engage as a coach at a different level. So I love transformation. How we got to transformation in our company name was fascinating. It was a rebrand we did about a year and a half ago because I had a franchise model that I had to carry with me from a company title because of agreements and things like that. But we went through this rebrand process and we asked our clients, said, you know, Chuck's gonna go change the name of his company. And it was ironic because the branding company didn't come up with it. It was one of our clients saying something that lit the fuse on transformation. And then all the other clients started chiming in in some kind of focus group interviews and things like that, going, yeah, that's what Chuck's taking us through. Individual leadership, team and then company. So that kind of leads us to today. And we renamed the company, the transformation company. And I'm working on a book that will deliver in a year or so. But more importantly, I'm living the dream and helping individuals and companies, leaders, teams, you name it, through transformation.

So we're going to share, I'm going to have you share a couple of stories in that realm in just a second and we'll get a sense of the work that you do and how you do it and what we mean by transformation. But let me just. So you start out as a corporate guy and you're really like in your core there, an executional operator type working on scaling things, but a pivotal boss, instrumental boss. And I think we all have like those ones that are mentor, teacher, guru coaches, somebody who changes our way of thinking, expands something, teaches and alters the way you think and look at things that connects your operational kind of mindset to the more strategic, bigger picture stuff.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was Jim Butterworth and he was a ex Navy guy. And Woody came at me at first when I started working, working in, it was true business development. You know, you hear that term today in a company, it's more marketing. But this was building businesses and said, Chuck, you know, you're great at this side, which is awesome, but we've got to get you thinking differently and you've got to be able to connect to dot vision, strategy right down execution. And he said, once you lock those circuits together, you're going to build some amazing things and do some amazing things. And so, yeah, that was that, that transformational thing that happened for me and my career for sure.

So then you go through some changes and so on, and you join a coaching organization and they teach you the basics and fundamentals of coaching. And you get started, you develop your chops there and you discover you really love it. And then you encounter the rock habits and what becomes scaling up. And like I think I still have around here the old binder from the Yeo birthing of Giants program and all of the stuff that Vern had in there and all the notes. So you encounter that and you begin to apply that to your coaching clients even before you become an official coach. And that starts to amplify something. And this transforming businesses begin to emerge and the labeling of it shows up later in our rebranding exercise. But that work has begun its foundation and woven together your coaching practices with your, with your business background. Right. And how that grew and those things begin to meld. And so first of all, let's. Well, actually, let's start with. Tell us about the Company that you transformed as a generational healthcare company. And I love that story. So let's share that with our folks now and then we'll get into what, what do we really mean? What's our definition of transformation?

Yes, yes. So this is back in 2007. Okay. And we still work with this company. And I knew the parents who were the founders of it was a 30 year old company and they were just lovely people. And we got to know each other through, you know, a networking organization in Colorado Springs. Their name is Ken and Sylvia and they're just awesome people. We started talking and they said, you know, Chuck had a pretty good business, but you know, we want our son to take over and, you know, run it into another level. But it's kind of stuck. You know, we've been flat for 3, 4 years, 8 million in size. And. But we're not sure if our son is coachable and teachable. We're afraid that if he takes it, it may not go to where maybe it possibly could. So that, that was the start of the conversation. And then lo and behold, Devin is his name. And just a great guy, good, dear friend. And he and I got thrown together, ironically, coaching our sons on a basketball team at the school they were in. They kind of said, which dads want to coach? And they threw us on a court. And this was sixth grade for our boys, Jeff and Jeff, his son, and Ryan, my son. And we got to know each other and he started talking, he goes, you know, my parents talk about you all the time. And we started coaching, we had a ball coach. And he goes, you know, I want to know what you do with businesses. So he was open. And so I'll never forget this. We actually have a video on our site now. And Devin, I met with Devin, Cynthia, his wife, Ken and Sylvia, the parents, in a meeting to talk about coaching. And they said they want to make all these changes, they want to fix this, do that with the company. All these ideas are flowing. And I paused for a second, I said, this is fantastic. However, it's got to start with you. And I've got to ask this question. And Ken and Sylvia are 5,758 respectively. And I look right at them, I said, are you willing to change? You want to change the company? It's got to start with you. And they both will do whatever it takes. Chuck and I looked at Cynthia, his wife. How about you, Cynthia? Oh, yeah. And of course, then the big discuss, the big question, right, Devin, are you willing to change everything you do and how you do it to take your company to a new level. And he looked around, he's looking at, you know, the family, and of course I am. And his parents are winking at me going, that's amazing. That's a transformation to itself, right? So that began the journey, but it was. It was a lot of work. Bill. Transformation is not a snap of the finger. Take the pill. It's like Job said, it takes a hell of a lot of work, right? Help work to transform things and change things. So we got after, first and foremost, the game plan, because there was no game plan. And we started talking about the BHAG and what's it look like in 10 years? I'll never forget that meeting. We had 18 people in a room, and we came up with taking this 8 million flat, not going anywhere, company. And we said, we're gonna. We're gonna hit 33, 34 million, and we're gonna do it in 10, but, you know, we're probably gonna do it faster. And the dad got up and go. He just. I just look in his face. He's like, oh, my goodness, I can't believe we're even talking about this. And Devin was, like, focused. I could see it in his eyes. He was going to do it. And so we started with the bhag, you know, lining up a big goal. And then came the challenge of leadership, of changing how they lead, how they think. And we've got this amazing tool we use to identify not just the strength, but the constraint that you face as a human being. And we applied that to the whole leadership team. Devin, in particularly, had to become a more nurturing leader. He's a high D and dis. You know, Dominic. Yeah. You know that. You know what? That's. I know. So people were afraid to go in his office. And so we started with leadership development. We had the game plan, you know, the big strategic plan. And then we got into the quarterlies and the annuals that we drive with scaling up, and then became the culture. They have a franchise model. And it's kind of funny, a franchise hand up a culture. But they didn't know what it was. They just, you know, applied it. So I said to them, hey, guys, what is the culture? What do you want it to be? Who are your very best people? Well, we already got one. No, no, no. Who are your very best people? And we lined up a great set of core values that to this day are imprinted across. The company. Became one of those founding things, you know, the foundational things, if you will, to Scale the company. And then we really got after it and we started to spread that leadership down in the organization. We started, literally, our first strategic plan was four people in a room. Now we have a group of 13 in the core leadership team retroing forward. But we really hammered at it. There were a lot of challenges, obstacles. There was more stuff under that hood, if you will, that we had to take through transformation, operations, system, teams. The way that we're doing things, the way we're thinking throughout the company. And boy, it was a heck of a journey. And we recently recorded a client testimonial video montage with several clients. And Devin said, yeah, we met Chuck. I wanted him to help me fix everything. And he looked me right in the eye and said, devin, you're the first one that has to get fixed. Now, I didn't say that exactly because that's not coaching, but I did challenge him on himself. But boy, they have hit two 10 year BHAGs. Two 10 year BHAGs in 5 years. I am so proud of this group. And they have transformed their leadership, their culture. They give back to the community. And now we're doing the next BHAG reset as we speak. And it's good, it's. We're doing a little top, you know, bottom up because he's got so many great leaders in the company. So we're trying to spark it from within to go that next, you know, transformational bhag, if you will. And Bill, you know what, what a joy it was. Not that easy, a lot of heavy lifting, but boy, I am so proud of them. They are my poster child for organizations that tackled it big and now they're still going after it. And his son, third generation is coming in as we speak, who is a dear friend of my son. So it's a, it's just a joy. Joy to take company through that.

So let's just underscore a couple things, right? So we heard a lot of the shift, but for me, there's a moment of transformation. You talk about the work of transformation doesn't happen overnight, but I think there's a crisis or a turning point when a new future is created. And I heard that in there, you were around a room, you said, what are we committing to? What are we imagining? What are we taking on? And in that moment, you imagined a new future. You claimed it as yours and you began that journey. Now there was work to be done to fulfill that future, but that. That had begun at that point.

Yeah, yeah. Oh, absolutely. And you know, like any good Transformational vision, or bhag, however you want to define it, there's that impossibility. That's part of it. But you release the I can't do it. I'm not sure how to do it. And that's exactly what happened in that room. And it was 18 people in that room and you could feel it.

So 18 people in the room. How many people worked in the company at that point?

All of them were in the room. All of them.

So it was an 18 person company doing $8 million in 2007. Yeah. And the audacious goal that they had was a revenue goal to get to 33 million.

Exactly. That was the bogey. That was the bogey.

That was their number. Okay. And now it's been 11 years. Right. And can you share some of the stats today?

Yeah. Right now they're north pretty close to 50 million, over 1500 employees. And a lot of those are not FTEs. They're part time. They're in health care. They do staffing, home care, which is growing like crazy as the population ages. They've diversified from one core home care line in the home office. They've got seven different lines of business and care, hospice, palliative care, and then personal care. You know, we say outside of the Medicare area, private pay. So they diversified as an organization too. So, you know, they were just one company back then. Now they're a diversified company and on top of that, they've got six locations in Colorado and Arizona. They have gone from. They were way up, like number 50, 60 in their franchise. They are number three. They won an international best franchise that was across other franchises back in 2009, 2010, for their performance. So, yeah, it's. It's fun. It's fun. Great place to be.

And along the way they've had to transform their leadership style, their operation, their values, their purpose. The BHAG's gone through a couple rounds. Lots changed in that time.

Yeah, yeah, a lot's changed and it continues to change. I think the notion of transformation, it's a one off, let's do it type of thing. You're literally, you almost have to burn that into the DNA of the organization and to think that way. So now they're scaling to the next level and another generation coming. They want to set it up for Jeff and they have two other sons that may or may not get in the business. So, yeah, we're going through another cycle of transformation now, which is kind of exciting.

So, you know, I will. This may be an interesting. Aside from our Listeners, but I get inquiries from folks from time to time who are listeners to the show or friends of friends or referrals, that kind of thing. And they ask me, well, who won't this work for, this scaling up framework and the scaling process? And I'm like, you know, it's pretty agnostic, independent of industry country. We have coaches all over the world who are applying it successfully. And it's not any weird mumbo jumbo hocus pocus nonsense. It's very straightforward, best of class thinking framework that is alive and continues to draw the best of stuff. So what is it that has people fail? And I would say for me anyway, and maybe I'm just a terrible coach, but somewhere between one in five, one in four will quit the process and will fail and will not achieve the results. And whether they formally fail or withdraw, and it's really, for me now, in working with lots and lots of clients, I would say that it really breaks down into two categories. And the first and biggest one is the leader refuses to change any approach. The leader's like, I just want to do my meetings this way. I just want to talk this way, I just want to interact with people this way. I know I grew my company 10 million, 100 million, 50 million, whatever their number is that they've already accomplished. They're like, I've got this, we're 400 million now. And I know because we've gotten that. And I know, yeah, but that's not going to take you any further because you've got to where you've got to with what you've got to. And now it's time to transform form, to find the next level. So the first one is the leader refuses to change and evolve their leadership style. And you do truly have to scale your leadership style. If you think about in the beginning you work with, you might even start as a solopreneur and then you have maybe a couple of intimate team members around you and then you start to get layers of team and teams and you're working through people. You now have to have that purpose, those values, the bhag, the core customer, the brand promises the competencies be consistently fulfilled across larger and larger numbers of people. So you go from 3 people to 50 people to 100 people to 200 people to 10,000 people. And you have to lead differently and with influence through all those numbers of people. Your reliance on and the structures that we put in place with meeting rhythms and dashboards and balance metrics and the communication patterns and the habits of setting priorities on a regular basis. And tying those two long term things, all of that stuff are the structures that empower to fulfill on that original vision that you had. But you can't just go pop in, in somebody's office the way you once did when you have gone from five people to 5,000, right?

No, you can't.

So that's the first problem is you just want to do the same thing that you've always done and you're not willing to begin to change your habits. The second one is you're not willing to make the moves. And so I've seen people and you know, it's not that we don't, we don't fire each other that quickly, but sometimes maybe we should sooner. But they're like, it's very clear we need to make a change in a key person. And nine months drags out even a year sometimes and that person isn't released to go find a place where they can be a rock star. And they continue to suffer on part of the leadership team or some pivotal role. And the team and the company as a whole suffers in dealing with someone who isn't right for the job, who isn't right for the team. And they struggle and they struggle and results are impacted or paired or there's very little results. And then we make the change if that ever happens, if they don't just quit the process and boom, things can happen overnight. So when the leader changes and when the team makes appropriate changes to, especially to people, but to the way they do things, the focus, that kind of thing, lots of movement is possible. But if you resist changing key elements of the business and if you resist changing yourself first, then you struggle and you may ultimately quit, right?

Yeah, absolutely. And failure. You know, it's interesting you bring this up because I've lived through a couple, many of these as a coach because, you know, we like to say every, every company scales and becomes that amazing company that's in, you know, the latest pubs and stuff like that for success. But the big things I see, it's, it's, it's absolute leadership. One of the principles that I've always lit to and, and challenged my leaders on is the law of the lid. In other words, the organization cannot rise above your level of leadership. So if you want to scale, get ready to scale your leadership and take it to another level. And then the other piece is the development of your people. You know, Vern, I was doing a moderating a webinar with Vern a couple years back and he was asking a CEO, what's the key? And it was a tech company, and he was always expecting some kind of secret sauce on the technology or some cool code or something. And. And the guy goes, I realized if I wanted to 10x my company, I needed to 10x my people. And I would add, you need to 10x your leadership as part of that. The other piece that you said, which is really significant, this is a showstopper, is the people that got you started aren't. May not get you there. Right? And the loyalty, though, think about it. When you're in the trenches with somebody starting a company, I mean, it is like being in war. You're in the foxhole. You know, you can't make pay. You know, people don't take pay. They do whatever it takes. And that loyalty is amazing. It's like a brother, sister, you know, and. But at some point, they don't grow. They know if they can't grow anymore, that is really difficult. And a lot of leaders really struggle and may take years to make that move, which. Which again, slows the organization down. And again, I always say, do it with grace, but do the right thing, because they probably need to do another thing anyway if they're in that position in your company. Another area Bill kills companies we've got. I mean, think about it. Both of us have power tools to die for, and they're always getting better, we're improving. Plus we're adding the other things that we bring as coaches. The one that kills it, it's the tweaker, okay? I call it the tweaker. They see, it's like they go to the doctor. Doctor says, you need to do this, this, and this with your help, here's some medication, here's your diet. And the person says, you know, I don't want to take that med. I'm not going to take that one. I'm going to do. I'm only going to do this. They kind of, you know, mess with what the doctor says. Think about, would you do that? The doctor said, that's what you have to do to live. Of course you want. You know, and the same thing with all the tools, they want to change the huddle. The daily huddle becomes once a week. Well, that's not a daily huddle. The quarterly plan becomes, let's do it every six months. That's not a quarterly plan. You know, and what I find, my companies that really get it, really get great success or have a higher probability of extraordinary success, they follow the system, they use the tools the right way. They're not constantly tweaking things. I mean, it's just amazing, you know, because there's so much information that we all get in books, conferences, this, that, the other thing, there's a temptation to just kind of always throw more things into the mix, if you will. And that just kills the process in my mind.

Yeah, I fully agree with you there. I think there's a big distinction between making it your own and getting away from the original intent, the concept of the thing, so to say, okay, we're gonna do our daily huddle this time, we're gonna expand it or we're gonna tweak the agenda like this. Well, there's a lot of different ways you could do daily huddles, but it's not a weekly.

Exactly. I always think that's funny when I say that.

Right. And it's not a two hour meeting.

Exactly.

Every day.

Right, exactly. Exactly. So, you know, around transformation, you know, as we're talking, one of the things that real, and you know, our kids and their kids, God knows what they'll be facing as far as change. But we are in an unprecedented state, precedent, state of change everywhere and everything. I don't care what you pick on, whether it's life, social, business, doesn't matter, technology, digital, AI, all this stuff is coming to bear. And I think, you know, when I think of transformation, you know, years ago, it'd be like, oh, wow, you know, this person is a transformational leader. And you know, my, my big commercial I just go back to probably dates me a bit is Apple's commercial with the crazy ones with Dreyfus doing the voiceover. Yeah, Yep, yep. I look at that still this day that just incites, you know, inspiration and, you know, thinking in my, in my, in me, in my heart and soul. But, you know, that was back then and now it's like, you know, I don't know if you have an option here because, because disruption's occurring, it will continue to occur and maybe at rates and things that we can't even imagine today. And if you're not being proactive with transformation, oh, you'll go through it, but you may not like what, what happens, especially with the world we live in today, Bill. And, and so I think it's something that you have to do or must do versus it'd be nice to do maybe, you know, 20 years ago, if you will, when you think that way. But going forward, I don't think you have a choice. It's just a matter of are you going to do it yourself or Something going to happen that's going to force it upon you or are you literally going to get obliterated in the process? And I really mean that because it's happening left and right in industries today as we speak. It's happening to companies mom and pops don't exist. There is no such thing. Right. Remember that terminology.

Yeah, that's an interesting thing. A competitor can change your reality and put you out of business. They will invent and if you don't take on yourself and deal with it, then they will do it to you. An industry can change and technology can change. So industries can simply be removed by changes in society, in the environment and technology and so on. Competitors can simply change the whole rules of the sector that you operate in. So any number and then economic cycles, right? Times go up, times go down. It's inevitable. There's a pendulum, there's a cycle to things. And if you're not dealing with and revolving, then forget, forget growing, you can't even hold place. So there is a challenge then for each of us to grow. Not just grow, but to actually transform, to reimagine and to become something that we weren't now to recreate who we are.

Exactly. I mean just the field we're in, coaching, right? I mean that's transforming as we speak online technology is changing a whole game there, if you will. And what I always like to say is it you've got to figure. Like when I was talking about my mentor Jim, you know, he said, chuck, you got to think differently. No kidding. I had to think real differently back then. But now it's like you just can't rest on your laurels. What I, what I thought was fascinating. I was watching a movie. Not a movie, a video with Bezos that Vernon sent out one of his blogs, his weekly blogs. I kind of clicked in and I clicked into his video and somebody was interviewing him years ago, strategy. And it was mind blowing about that. I mean I would say Amazon's transformational, but it was how they got there. And, and, and, and he said, what'd you do? And he said, well, we asked a different question, of course. You know, I expected that, but it was, the question was as they look, you know, on the patterns and trends forward was what's not going to change? And you know, when I first heard that, I was like, wow, that kind of twisted my brain up. And subsequently I've had a whole bunch of my clients thinking that way because they looked at, you know, people are going to always want lower prices or at least A selection. And when you buy anything there, there's always a different version or a way to get it from a pricing standpoint. He said, people are going to want it fast. Well, it's even faster now. Right. If you will prime next day, next thing you know, we'll have a drone drop our book in our office. Half an hour later, we'll think about it. It'll come to us. And then. What's a book? Yeah, it's a book. I know. You just. What is that thing?

Right.

It'll be something else. And then. And then, you know, he got the selection, you know, so he went after that and they. After that in Amazon, and look where they are today. Used to be just books. Now it's like you said, what's a book? It's amazing. But they. They came at transformation a little bit differently because some people think, hey, man, we got a take like Uber did with. With the taxis. Right. I grew up in New York, and, you know, there was. You grew up thinking the only way you're going to get into that business with a medallion is million dollars plus or no. So if you will. Right, right. Uber comes along and smokes it. Airbnb did the same thing, and we're seeing that happens. Yeah. Total disruption. So there's different ways to get there. As a coach, I kind of take my companies to different, you know, questioning and thinking and really getting them open.

Up about, let's give people a couple of your takeaways and I'll point them to your link and like that, so that. So they've got something to go to work on from this. Because I think we've given them the broad strokes. Let's give them the bullets now for how to begin to transform yourself and your business.

Yeah, I think the big bullets, you know, would be really sit down and look out, look at what's going on in your current world, but look at the future world and think about what's not going to change, what's going to change. And then look at that and really start to think about what's the possibilities for you as an organization. Is your industry going to go away? Or do we have to literally get on that thing that we just talked about with Amazon and ride it hard over the next couple of years? The next thing is, it's not just about the strategy. It's about the leadership. It's about the culture. It may be about the transformational purpose that you have to recreate on the journey, if you will, and then it's how you do things at the end of the day, whatever you're doing now, the book from Goldsmith what got you here won't get you there. Well, I think you have to look from an operational standpoint and say, what are we going to have to dramatically change or do completely differently going forward? And then it's really lighting into the whole organization like you talked about earlier, and understanding how you can take the whole organization to that transformation. The other piece, too is the connection to your markets. I mean, your markets could be different in the future, that's for sure. Your core customer today could be another core customer, you know, 10 years from now. Or, you know, as Vern says, dig deep and go for the profit pool over the next set of years to use that as a linchpin, if you will, for the future company. So this is some big takeaways, Bill. There's too many to list in just four or five, but those are the biggies as far as I'm concerned.

That's outstanding. So Chuck Kocher is the Transformation DOT company and you can read more about him and his stuff there. Of course, we've got a podcast for you every week here with some subject discussion with a thought leader, a client, another coach about scaling up, growing your business. We're interested in that big scaling up 10x type growth. How do we start to achieve and ramp up growth? Of course, we've got stuff for you as well@scalingupbusiness.com and thanks again for being on the show with us, Chuck.

Hey, Bill, it was an honor. It was great to talk with you and keep scaling up.

Well, I hope that was helpful. I love hearing stories of transforming a business and seeing what's possible and hearing some of the pitfalls along the way. I really appreciate Chuck for coming on the show today and I hope that you'll go to the transform company thetransformation.com pan and check out more about his approach to transforming businesses. I want to give special thanks to our original growth guru, Verne Harnish, creator of the Rockefeller Habits and the Scaling Up Framework, along with the rest of the team at Gazelles. Our show producer is Nye Obaid. Audio production is done by Podfly Productions, audio editing by Albert Burge and our show notes are compiled by Ayn Kodina with proofreading by Tim McGowan. If you got some value from today's show, please share it with somebody else and let us know what parts you loved. Thanks for listening again and keep scaling up.

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