096: Brandon Bruce - Is It Time to Do a Mini-Pivot?

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Well, you might be familiar with the term pivot in business, when things aren't working out, we figure out how to get into a new business and how to change the business model or do something else. Today's show is actually about the mini pivot. When you make a little change and add something to help scale up the business. We'll be talking with a successful entrepreneur about the mini pivot process and how he's used it to grow their business. So listen in. Hello and welcome again to the Scaling Up Business podcast. I'm your host and growth coach, Bill Gallagher. On the show with me today is Brandon Bruce. He's co founder and COO of Cirrus Insight. We're going to be talking all about pivots, especially like the mini pivot. Right. We'll talk more about what that is. Not necessarily the big pivot, but the little pivots and all the things along the way. So Brandon is in Knoxville, but he's originally a Californian like me and transplanted through a series of events. He could share more and we've been introduced by friends of friends, so he's an entrepreneur sharing a story of how they've grown their business and what they've done along the way. You'll hear a little bit about his business and what they do. But welcome to the show, Brandon.

Thanks, Bill. Thanks for having me on.

So, I don't know, most of our folks are listeners, not viewers. Right? And they won't see that you're freaking tall.

Right.

I don't see them kind of grazing the ceiling here.

The angle almost suggested on the camera here on my end. But you're like six, eight. Right. And I, yeah, I can't remember how long, how tall my friend and former guest Dave Rendle is, but he's also another Freakishly tall guy. Right.

It's one of those things that just doesn't come through through a podcast. Right. So it's always good to share it.

Yeah. So Brandon's also an entrepreneur and also a member of the EO organization, the entrepreneurs organization that we're involved, which is like YPO and another kind of a support to our work and actually the place where this was born in the eo, then YEO organization. So, so glad to have you on the show and tell us a little bit about your background, your entrepreneurial journey and that'll kind of get us into then our subject for the day.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, going, going back to the beginning, I suppose I grew up in Los Olivos, California, which is really small town that you can kind of miss unless you're intentionally going there. But it's kind of the home of Central coast wine country. So for listeners that have watched some movies, including Sideways, especially where they go on the road trip like a bachelor party and they go wine drinking, that's exactly where I grew up. So the first winery they visit during that movie is the Sanford winery. And their daughter was my only classmate in grade school. So I went to a really, really small school out in the sticks, you know, class of two, very self directed. So in a lot of ways I kind of look back to my experience in elementary school as being kind of entrepreneurial. I remember there was another student at school that picked up an algebra book and wanted to kind of teach himself algebra. And I thought, well, shoot, if he can do it, I won't pick up the same book and teach myself algebra. And the teacher said, that's fine, do whatever you want. So we did a lot of self directed learning. A lot of outdoors staffs, we take a lot of hikes in the mountains, get outside a lot. That's something that's still really important to me. And thankfully Knoxville is right next to the Great Smoky Mountains National Park. So to drop a little trivia on the listeners, most visited national park in the country, which most people assume it's probably Yosemite or Yellowstone, but it's actually the Great Smokies. One, because it's on the east coast next to a big population center, and two, it's free, which always helps, but yeah. So my co founder and I met at UC Santa Barbara right next to the beach. You know, freshman sophomore year, we started talking about Internet ideas. This was late 90s, stuff was popping in the dot com boom. So we got excited. We should do something. We didn't exactly know what to do. But I remember we spent a late night specking out identity management on the Internet. And the next morning, Microsoft released Passport. And we were like, oh, that's pretty much what we had in mind. Except Microsoft did it way better than what we could have come up with. Anyway, we did a couple some projects, built a bunch of websites and little mini apps and so forth, and then went our separate ways. We both ended up going to business school. I went to law school. Ryan went to work for IBM and developed a lot of expertise in this new and growing platform called Salesforce that was really starting to revolutionize CRM. You no longer had to install really big, bulky database on premise to manage all your customers. So he was really excited about it, started building apps on it, and called me up seven years ago and said, hey, there's a gap, you know, an inefficiency which you're always looking for, whether you're an entrepreneur or an investor or something, that there's friction. And he said, you know, all these salespeople that I work with work in Gmail, and they're all being forced to log data into Salesforce, but they just can't do it. It takes them forever. They switch back and forth between browser tabs like 200 times a day. It's ridiculous. He said, what if we take Salesforce and build it into Gmail in a little side panel that just sits in the inbox and ingests email and calendar events and makes sure you get credit for all those sales activities? You can manage the relationships better because that's where relationships really happen. For most of us, we're in the inbox and we're in the calendar. Salesforce is a great management reporting tool, but if you talk to most Salespeople, they're not huge fans of it or any database. They don't want to do manual data entry. They don't want to track their activities. They just want to have activities. So Ryan started building the application and I started making calls, seeing who would partner with us, seeing who would test the app out. And we had some very early users pay us, sent us some money, and we said, well, it's too early. We haven't even started charging for it yet. And they said, we like the app and it's saving us time. So we want to encourage you, like, you should launch this thing for real. Started as a company, we think it's got lag. So that gave us a shot of confidence to get in the market December of 2011. So we were. The first serious insight was the first application to connect Gmail to Salesforce and that was a great market to launch into because Gmail was growing like a weed in terms of small businesses, even up into the mid tier and starting to penetrate enterprise. And meanwhile, y' all know how fast Salesforce has grown, right? You can look at the chart for the last seven years, it's phenomenal. So we kind of sat in the middle of these two really fast growing cloud platforms and have been helping. Now we serve about 5,000 different organizations from small nonprofits to mid size, higher eds to major Fortune 100 enterprises that want to have an efficient, effective experience between Gmail or now we also work with Office 365 and Outlook and their Salesforce order. So it's been a great ride. We've got about 62 people on the team now between Knoxville, Tennessee where I'm located in Irvine, California where Ryan and the dev team are. And yeah, we've just been focused on kind of growing the business organically. I guess that's one big difference between us and a lot of startups that have come out in the sales enablement space over the last five to 10 years is many of them have a lot of big venture backing. We just have a few angel investors, but otherwise we've kind of bootstrapped it. We'd be considered lightly funded and we add more customers, we add more people and try to scale the business.

There's value in having money to use with. But I remember back in the 90s, an advisor said, well, let's do an exercise now and imagine that you had 5 million, not half a million to get started with and what would you do differently? And I'd say, well, I'd make the same mistakes, but bigger.

Bigger, Right. That's been one of the best descriptions I've heard. It amplifies everything with better chairs.

Right?

Yeah, if you're great at something, you can just go that much faster. But if you're in the midst of trying out a market or a product, exploring a vertical, then yeah, it's pretty nice to make some mistakes and have.

Them not be big mistakes, amplify the mistakes, but you make them at roughly the same pace. So in some ways the constraints are pretty helpful. And some of the best innovations that we see folks do and that I can think about in my own career over multiple companies, happened when I had a significant constraint. That's where I had to do something different, where I had to find some other way.

Yeah, well, in our constraint, which has been helpful because people say, why don't you serve some larger market. But it's been helpful for us, I think, to keep the guardrails on and say we work with companies that use Salesforce. Are there a lot of companies that use SAP and Dynamics and Oracle and lots of other databases, Homegrown, home built databases, Excel spreadsheets, notepads. Sure. But by focusing on that market of however many it is, 6, 8 million users, maybe more, that are on the Salesforce platform, it's kept us really focused on listening to what they want and then trying to build that as well and as fast as possible. Now, over the last year or so, well, obviously over the past six years, we started with the Gmail integration and we've added Outlook, Office 365, iOS and Android integrations. We basically want to meet you in the inbox wherever you're doing sales and connect you with the Salesforce platform. And then over the last year we've also added just a standalone Gmail plugin, all the features for sales teams that they need, but without the necessity of having a Salesforce account because we were just hearing a lot of demand for that. So that's kind of how we've approached the market.

So in our prep for the show, we were talking about pivots and a lot of folks think about pivot as a fairly significant thing where we take some, some little piece of whatever and we go into a whole new business. But you were talking about a mini pivot or you're hanging on to something. But talk to me a little bit about the evolution of that idea.

Yeah, I mean, when we started tweaking Cirrus Insight so that it would work for Gmail users, so email open tracking templates, our meeting scheduler, what we call flight plans, the ability to schedule out sequences of emails. People were like, oh, is this a pivot? Because you want to serve customers that are not necessarily Salesforce customers? I thought, well, I suppose in a way. Except that pivot colloquially seems to mean like this big departure from your business plan, like totally different strategy and or totally different product. So people refer to a company like Twitter as emerging from a pivot. I think of Twitter as emerging, like, hey, this is working way better and has more potential than what we're doing now. So we're going to do something way over here. Maybe it's still with the same team, but I think of that as, you know, it's like it's a totally different business Pivot. I guess because I played a little bit of basketball growing up, I think of, you know, one foot is firmly planted, you can move the other foot. If you move both feet, you're traveling. That's a penalty. And I think most of the time, if you're doing a pivot that's in which both feet are moving, it's a total departure. Let's build a new product. Let's go change our strategy completely. Many of those you are going to get called for a foul, meaning it's probably not going to go super smoothly, because I think that's super hard. It's like starting a new business again. But if you can't afford to do as you've described it, like a mini pivot, one foot's planted, you know what you're good at, You've got a basis, you've got some customers, you got people telling you they like what you do, they're paying you money, then you can kind of move the other foot around. So the examples of that, I think would be, we started exclusively Gmail with Salesforce, right? Very niche application. We knew exactly who our target market was. So we could go to a trade show and say, do you use Salesforce? Yes. No question. If answer is no, then great to meet you, have a great day. If the answer is yes, then second question was, do you use Gmail? And if the answer is no, no, we use something else. Have a great day. If the answer is yes, then it's like, we made a product just for you. It is perfectly built for Salesforce and Gmail and check it out. And people loved it, right? Super high conversion rates. So then we mini pivoted based on demand that we heard from our customers saying, look, we really like how this looks, but we're going to be on Outlook for a long time. Or we're adopting Office365, or our reps are in the field all day. They're on iPads and iPhones or Android devices. How can we save our sales activities to Salesforce? How can we sync our calendars? How can we take advantage of these other features but use it in our inbox environment? So we said, well, that just makes sense. It's an expansion of, you know, what we do. But we didn't consider it a departure from serving our core Gmail customers. And similarly, to serve just Gmail customers now as a standalone application, it's like, oh, are you forsaking the Salesforce ecosystem of customers? Absolutely not. I mean, they're still coming to us in droves, and that's still the core of our customer base. But we started to hear so many requests from folks that said, look, we're small businesses. We're not ready for Salesforce yet, but we really want to use email campaigns, up to 500 people at a time. We want to schedule more meetings. We're freelancers, we're small businesses, or we just happen to use some other database to track customer relationships. But we want the functionality that you've built in the inbox. So we said, well, that makes sense. And it sounds like should be pretty easy, right? We just unbaked some of the Salesforce stuff and release it to Gmail users. Ended up taking us substantially longer than that because Salesforce was just part of the DNA of the application. So over the course of about a year, we built out kind of that separate iteration where someone can sign in with Google rather than just with Salesforce. And now we can serve arguably both markets, a larger market, because there's so many people that use Gmail.

Well, I think it's. I mean, I definitely hear a reference to the idea of the core customer. And when you think of core customer and your sort of unique advantage, what we think we're reminded of Bob Bloom and Bob Bloom's on our very first show here for the podcast. And that idea that the thing that makes you extraordinary is already there in your business, you just don't necessarily recognize it yet. And by looking for that core customer, the passionate promoter, the one who will pay you a good price, a fair price, ample profit, who pays you on time, who recommends you to people, not necessarily the biggest customer, but the best customer, and then looking at what they value you for, what they appreciate about you, helps you to identify that place. That's where your foot stays anchored. Right? And then the pivot around the unanchored foot is all the other places you could touch, staying true to that core, somebody else like them doing the same kind of thing that you could apply it to. Right. Did I do that? Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, people have asked us, are you going to build other apps for the Google or Microsoft or Salesforce ecosystems? Because obviously you know how to do it. So why not build other apps that do all sorts of different things? And it's like, no, that's not our area of expertise. You know, we've developed, you know, we've got six, seven years of feedback from people of how they work in the inbox and how they schedule meetings in the calendar. And that's valuable, right? That's the goodwill, the intangible that makes the company run. And so we've tried not to run down too many rabbit holes that Say we're going to get distracted. The opportunities that we have pursued, including a couple small acquisitions, have been ones that really align with the core value that our users are asking for. The two best examples I have, I got an invitation by email a couple years ago and the person simply said, hey, I'd like to meet with you to talk to you about this. Click one of the times in the email and it will automatically be added to both of our calendars. And I was like, this is incredible. So I was like, okay, I'll try it. I don't even remember what they were asking me to meet about. I was like, this is intriguing. So I clicked a time and sure enough, it popped on my Google Calendar and it popped on their Outlook calendar. We were done. I didn't have to reply to the email and I thought that was so awesome. They got the meaning they wanted, but they also respected my time as the prospect and I don't mind meeting with them for 20 minutes. That was so slick. So that company was called Assistant to assistantto. And so I called them up there in San Francisco and they were at a good point of departure for them. And so we acquired that and baked it into serious insight. And it's one of our customers favorite features because it helps them to schedule more meetings. That's nuts and bolts. Sales is you want to have a conversation with the customer, find out if they can be that ideal customer that you described. That one's been key for us. And the acquisition we did just at the end of last year, it's called attach IO, which is for attachment tracking. So we looked at some of the core problems that we have and our users have, which is, man, dumping these huge file attachments on emails all the time. And sometimes they get filtered out or they get flagged as being too big. And we don't know, did the recipient actually open it? Like, we feel good as a salesperson, like, hey, I sent out the contract, now I'm just waiting for signature. Are you? What if they never open it? You know, it's one of those, the tree falls in the forest, no one's there to hear it. Just because you sent the contract doesn't mean it was opened, read, read again, forwarded, illegal, whatever. So instead by uploading that, you get.

Your attachment, the encoding's wrong, et cetera.

Right. It gets messier. They say, hey, you put our company name in there, but it's actually company name llc. Oh, well, now you gotta go generate a new word doc and resend contract and put V2 on the end. Well, then their lawyers look at it and still V1. Right. It's a total cluster. So instead you put the file up in cloud storage with Attach and then you send a link to it. And if you need to change the content, you just change the content there. But the link the customer has stays the same and you get alerted when they open it. You can watch in real time and see. Are they on page five of the slide deck? Oh, they're on page seven, but they just left. Why did they leave? My pricing's on page eight. I never even saw it. What are the chances they're going to be a customer? Pretty slim at this point, unless they go back in and open it again or send it to someone else in the company. So it gives you that kind of engagement intelligence. So you can say, I better follow up on this one. This one's a hot one or this one's cold. Needs a little more work. I should call or send a follow up email or what have you. Those two have been aligned. The ones that we even pursued or some stuff that we built internally that hasn't been really inbox and calendar centric with integration with Salesforce, those have not been ones that have worked out. So our little mini pivots that align with the core platform have been good for us.

So we start identifying a core customer, some core strength, then you're looking at all the places that you could go and the feedback from the customer. Right. What they're asking for and looking at, do those align with something you feel like is a strength and a core capability?

Yeah. Well, and I'll give you an example of one that didn't work. So those were two that were good, one that didn't work as well, but we were encouraged to do, and we're really excited about. We did a small acquisition, it integrated Google Drive with Salesforce. We did a lot more development on it and we thought this is great because it dovetails with our core competence of connecting Google with Salesforce. And so it's a great add on opportunity for existing customers because if they're using Gmail, they're also using Google Drive 99% of time. So we thought this is great. What we hadn't factored in and what we came to learn was that the buyer is totally different. So the buyer is the sales team. They're in their inbox, they're in their calendar. And when we would go and say, hey, we've got this really cool thing, connects all your files and drive with the right customer and account Records in Salesforce, it was like, yeah, that is cool. But no one in our company really handles documents or that would be this whole other team. You have to talk with corporate and then we're trying to meet with someone we've never met before. And so the path to getting the sale, everyone agreed it was cool tech, but we couldn't figure out most companies just didn't have someone that was buying that. It was like, yeah, our files are in the cloud, it's no big deal. We don't keep them organized. It's not really a problem at this point, or it is painful, but no one's been tasked with solving the pain. So we're out. And that was a learning for us because we thought, this is great, we're going to do this one and then anything else that connects Google and Salesforce, we're going to try to wrap all that stuff up. But based on that experience with that now it's actually our focus needs to be not the two cloud platforms, it needs to be where people work, which is for us the inbox. Everything is inbox oriented for us in Calendar.

So we use a lot of times. Three questions that I think are relevant for this. I'll share them now. But if you're trying to figure out brand promises, right, that points to strengths and so on. What can people count on from you? And I've heard some people just, they do that as a leadership conversation and they say, what should our brand promises be? But to me that feels a little bit like delusional. And we express them in our own words, which is not necessarily credible with the marketplace. So I will usually send folks out to go ask the core customer, 10, 20, you know, a fair number of ideal customers. The following three questions. So the first one is goes to expectation, right? When you first chose us, decided to do business with us, were attracted to us, why did you do that? Right. What was the reason that you chose? And so that goes to what they were expecting that they'd been seeing. And then the second question is experience. Now that you've worked with us, what do you think we're good at? Right. What are we great at now that you've worked with us? And then the third question is differentiation. So what makes us unique, different, even bad? What's weird about us? Right? Including the bad stuff. And that helps you. And if you'll take the verbatim replies and it's helpful to capture the customer's words, not how you hear them and filter them necessarily and roll those things together, you'll start to be able to develop a set of brand promises, but that also point to what you're good at credibly in the the eyes of the marketplace and against a core customer. Right. Which is where you want to be targeting anyway. And you can then rank those. Right. We always like folks to get to the top three. But I think it also then points to strengths. So that doesn't necessarily reveal the behind the scenes things that you're good at. Right. The competencies that you might have that let you give that promise, but it does give you directionally where you ought to go. Right.

I mean for us, Cosir Sensei had gotten about 3,000 reviews a year and a half ago or so. When we looked through all the reviews and did some analysis of them and we were interested to find we really have a top two, there's the two things that matter. I mean companies come to us because they want to connect Salesforce with Gmail, Salesforce with Outlook.

Right.

The question is why do they want to do that? There's two totally separate reasons, which makes a lot of sense given that it's Salesforce. So the one reason is if you talk to the sales team, it's all about this process is painful. I'm being asked to put data from one platform into another platform takes way too long. I either can't do it, don't have time to do it, or I can and it's taking up all my time away from actually selling, which I hate because I'm on commission and I'd like to make money. So for them, the reviews all boiled down to, I mean we're Talking about across 3,000 reviews, the big words, right. When we did a word cloud was just saves me time. It's a big time saver. So it's a painkiller because it's getting rid of this need to just blind copy yourself and copy paste and print screen stuff into Salesforce all the time. We take care of that for you. On the other side of the house, we had sales directors and managers, Salesforce administrators, C suite VP leadership saying the pain for us was we could not solve. We bought Salesforce, we spent a lot of money, we customized it, we think we got it just right. And for the life of us, we can't get anybody to use it. It's driving us crazy because it looks like we just burned a lot of money. And so we looked to seerist to do this and we found that Cirrus helped us solve for adoption. And so both of those combined. So it's like saving time and adoption, depending on who at the company you're talking with. And that was interesting for us to learn because when we do a demo on the sales team, it's very important for us to know who was on that call. So if it was the sales leadership, we would say, hey, Rhetorically, we would say, hey, are you having trouble getting your reps to check email? Like, no, of course not. If they don't check email, they don't have a job. Here you can't do sales to check email. We say, oh, well, that's great. What about Salesforce? Same thing. No problems there? Nah, it's killing us. And we say, cool. Here's what we're doing. We're going to put Salesforce in the inbox. Your users will not go into salesforce.com anymore, but they will be constantly connected from the inbox. They'll be able to see it and update it all day long. It's like, well, it sounds easy. That's why we're here. We're going to save them time and we're going to get you the data that you want. And if the Salesforce admin was on the call, we could go a little bit further and say, yeah, the differentiator was sure. There's now some other apps on the market that will connect your platform of Salesforce that we go deeper than all of them. So then you get into the terms of art. You develop custom objects, custom fields, record types, dependent pick lists. We natively work with like, we get it, speak the language.

Well, here's a business lesson I think for us that applies not just to this one, but to every business is figuring out what it is that you do and honing that message to the problems that you solve, what you're good at, who you speak to, who you really help, and not trying to cater to everyone with everything, right? Focusing in on that thing that you do uniquely well, discovering it. And that requires really listening to customers telling you what they need, how they use you, what they think about you. Right. And how you're different from all of that. Not looking at your own interpretation, but getting in their world. We do that.

You know, some of it is good timing or luck. And so I think it just so happens that during the rise of our company and of this category called sales enablement, we've seen job titles start emerging, like director of Sales Operations, Director of Sales effectiveness. Right. Folks that are specifically tasked with, hey, we've got this huge sales team, get them the stuff that they need, software tools, et Cetera, to make sure that they can get the job done as fast and effectively as possible. And so with that rise of that job title and that responsibility and the proliferation of apps, we know the folks that we really like to talk with and they're speaking the same language. So when we come to them and say, hey, we're going to solve for saving your users time, that sounds good because it's dead simple. You can install in two clicks, it's not a big implementation, et cetera. That's great. And then on the flip side, hey, and your directors and leadership are going to be happy because data is going to flow in and from that data, you can run workflow and it can hook into all of your other systems and alert you and stuff's happening so you can close more deals faster. That checks a lot of boxes for folks that have that responsibility. So that's been good timing. I don't think those roles are going to go away.

So a couple things to kind of help to wrap up and summarize for folks. You don't have to do a big pivot to improve your business, to scale up, to expand things. There's lots of opportunities for mini pivots, little things where you can, but you want to think about where you're anchored, what matters, and that's looking at what are you actually good at. Your core strengths, your core customers. Going to those folks and figuring out who you are and what matters and staying planted in that area, then finding the places to look around the options that expand, keeping true to that core. We want to listen to the things that the customers are actually telling you in their words and not your own interpretation of what's happening in the marketplace. Get that customer feedback. I think I love hearing about your story and how you applied, and you've certainly done really well with it. If you've also loved hearing about Cirrus Insight and how they work, we'll put a link up for you cirrusinsight.com/, scaling up. And there'll be a special offer for you there to use the service if that's useful for you. Brandon, I want to thank you so much for being on the show and sharing your story and teasing out the business, learning from it Today. It's been really awesome and it sounds like I'll see you soon at our global conference for the organization, for the EO organization.

Yeah, I'm looking forward to it. We'll see you in Toronto. And for any listener that finds themselves traveling through or visiting Knoxville, definitely give us a shout. You can join us for a Friday lunch. Some of you might have heard some of the excitement even on the background of this podcast. It's Friday lunchtime here in Knoxville, so there's foosball and ping pong and pizza happening. So it's a good time here. It's the last day of the month and the last day of the quarter, so it's deal closing day and we're always happy to welcome guests.

Well, I hope that's helpful in figuring out how to expand and add little pivots to your business to continue to grow. If you'd like to hear more about the core customer promise, brand promises, identifying competencies, or all of that, you'll find those in our podcast every week, in our blog posts, and in the free tools downloadable@scalingup business.com so go there now, sign up and we'll send you something every week. And of course you can go through all the library of all the stuff that we've got there right now and solve your business problems. I want to give special thanks to our original growth guru, Vern Harnish. Our show is produced by NY Obedience. Audio production is by podflight Productions with audio editing by Albert Burge. Show notes are compiled by Ayn Codena and proofreading by Tim McGowan. If you got some value out of this show today, please share it with somebody else and let us know what parts you love by dropping us a note. Thanks again for listening and Keep Scaling up.

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