098: Carl Gould - Get More Customers Without Compromising on Price

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If you'd like to close more business and do it without doing it on price. Today's show is all about that. We're going to tell you how to get really obnoxious in your pricing and also in your value. Listen in. Hello and welcome again to the Scaling Up Business podcast. I'm your podcast host and growth coach Bill Gallagher. On the show with me today is Carl Gould. So Carl and I have known each other for a couple of years now through the Entrepreneurs organization, but Carl is like an international speaker, growth coach, extraordinary author, you know, all around groovy guy. I also we haven't really talked about family before, but I'm just learning that you have three kids, two of whom who are close to my kids age who are now my kids are out of the house. Right. My daughter's very nearby, my son is and they're both entrepreneurial a little further away but 2119. Right. And you're 2219. But they have a 12 year old. Right?

12, right.

And that's just like they're still sweet at 12. I think usually.

You still want them coming around the house. That is true.

Still interesting too. And then I think that all like late 13 to I mean our kids are sweet through the bar bat mitzvahs and maybe that's because there was a pretty good event to be had. But then after that it all went to hell until they were about 18. Then they started to be nice and like us again and all of that.

They come back to you, right?

They do, they do. Well that's the I was sharing this quote as we were checking our mics and things like that that I don't know who said this but somebody said that when the kids enter their teen years they without notice fire you as their manager and it's your job to get hired back at some point as a consultant.

Oh, I like that. I did not heard that before. That's pretty cool.

I love that. And I think about that often. It helps me all the time. Like I no longer get to manage them and but if I'm really great, I get to advise them, I get.

I get to coach them, mentor them, right? Yeah. Be part of their cabinet.

So we're going to talk about, we're going to talk about growth and this idea that you had that I thought was pretty intriguing about getting obnoxious and, and where and when that is a helpful thing to be obnoxious. So before we get into that, why don't you tell you've had multiple companies, you've grown, you advise lots all over the world. So let's talk, tell us about, maybe begin with, I don't know, did you have a paper route or whatever it was that give us a little entrepreneurial journey, some of that credibility background? Tell us your story here.

Sure, sure. Well, interestingly enough, my very first ever entrepreneurial venture was a paper route when I was 8 years old. And so I did actually drive around town, throw the paper, go, collected, you know, whatever it was, $80 a month, $1.80 a week or whatever. I was actually going to fast forward a little bit to when I was going to college. I went to the University of Delaware for accounting and finance. Broke my leg pretty badly. And then I had to leave school. And you know, what do you do when you're broke, living at a home and you're out of money? Well, of course you started business. That's what entrepreneurs do. Right. And so I started the first of my two careers in construction. I started a design build landscaping company. I had done that in high school, so I was familiar with it. I grew up in the construction industry. Both sides of my family were in that. And I grew my landscaping company through the mid 90s and early 2000s, sold that business, started a construction company in 2004 and. Sorry. In 1992 and sold that business ultimately in 2004. However, in 1990 I went to a personal development seminar and really fell in love with the idea of helping people set goals and achieve their path in life or maximize their business. And so all through the 90s I did coaching part time. I got certified in situational leadership by Ken Blanchard and a Franklin Covey trainer in a human needs psychology through Tony Robbins and one of his results coaches and did all of this work through the 90s and all the way up till 2007 coaching under other models. And in 1996, I hired a business coach, a business mentor for my business. And if there were hashtags back there, Bill, the hashtag would have been hangupthe hammer. Because I had a business that ran me and I wasn't scaling it, I wasn't running it well enough. And so our mantra at the time or our theme was hang up the hammer. And after doing that for about five years, I said I worked with them for a number of years, I positioned my company for sale and then ultimately sold it. But I said, you know what, I want to do this full time. I want this to be my full time business. And so in 2002, I launched the business that I have now. And it's based on my seven stage methodology, which shows it's a growth trajectory, growth cycle that takes people through that. So, yeah, it's been a really cool ride from that way standpoint and. But I got some of my best lessons very early on, you know, probably when I was too young and naive to know any better. And when I was, you know, before I knew it all, I guess I got a lot of lessons. And it's the one that led me to the obnoxious one. It was one of the first lessons I ever got in business. And the very first year that I was in business, I'm in New Jersey and I have a design, build, landscape firm. So from March to November is the season. December, January, February, not so much. And so I'm starting to hear the complaints, I'm starting to hear the objections, I'm starting to hear the darker side of business. When I worked for somebody in high school, it was just, hey, we got a job, let's go do the work. It's all positive there, seemingly no resistance. But then when I started my business and I was the owner, I started to hear some of the edgy side of business, some of the challenges. And you know, people were talking to me like an owner now. Not just this, not just the lead, the crew supervisor, where everything was great and just, let's just get it done and let's all work together. And what I started to learn that I could, if I was able to scale my business based on understanding what people were upset about, and if I could roll the complaints and the objections and the irritations about my industry into my business plan, then I was very quickly able to delineate myself and distinguish from the competitors. And I found that the more I focused on what they were bothered by, not what I initially thought they would be. Excited by it seemed to make a really big difference. And so I quickly learned that these people, that the harder the objection they had and the more upset they were about working with someone like me, someone in my business. They were also more than likely more service and quality minded and less price conscious. Not that they didn't have a budget, but given the choice, they would have preferred quality and service and they'd be willing. They had some flexibility on price. I kept raising my price and raising the value of the service and to a point where somebody pulled me aside, somebody I knew not a friend, friend would be too strong of a word, but certainly a colleague pulled me aside and they asked me to bid on a project that they were having trouble getting proposals for. And they said to me, carl, I gotta tell you, you were off the reservation high. That was the first thing they said. And then they lectured me, lectured me for about 10 minutes and they said, your pricing is flat out obnoxious, I gotta tell you. And at the end of that speech, they hired me. I could not believe it. As I'm being lectured, as I'm being kind of quasi yelled at here. I didn't realize it in the moment, but they were just really voicing their frustration with the whole process. Not necessarily me. It didn't feel that way in the moment. They were directing it right at me. So during this whole rant, I'm thinking, well, not looking good for me this time around. And then when they hired me, I was totally confused. I got a deposit check right there on the spot. They signed the agreement and I walked out thinking, you know, if this were the Sopranos, I'm about to get whacked. You know, I'm about to walk outside and there's somebody waiting out there, you know, to get me. And I started to really think about it and I said, you know what? I think I'm onto something. As upset as that person was, I started to realize that they weren't upset at me because I just met them. They were upset at the last contractor they met, the prior people they talked to that didn't fulfill their needs. And they're really hoping I'm the person that can fulfill that need. And so my fundamental premise with my core clientele is to get as obnoxious as possible, not just in price, but also in value. And I realized that the, the reason I was hired was I addressed that. I addressed the top of mind concerns of the client to the point that they said, you know what, this is really what we want. I'm sad, I'M disappointed, I'm frustrated that it has to cost this much. But I'm willing to go there. And that has guided the, how I approach the relationship to my clients for all the companies I've ever, I've ever owned and all the companies I've ever advised since. And it's, and it's guided me very well.

So I'm obnoxious. If I'm following your direction. I'm obnoxious in setting a very high price or unusual term or something like that. But I'm also providing an unusual benefit in some area. Right? Maybe not in every area, but an.

Unusually high benefit to the, to the ideal client avatar. So what I've unfortunately, and as a growth coach, I'm sure you've dealt with this as well. You ask somebody what their ideal client avatar and they'll say female, 18 to 49. You know, that's not an avatar. That's a range or that's a demographic or that's an approach, but that's not an avatar. An avatar to me would be a specific age, you know, so you have a, you know, if you say 29 to 39 year old women, again, I'll take women as it could be men for that matter. But you know, the message to a 29 year old man or woman is totally different than the message to a 39 year old man or woman. And so we like to dial it in as close as possible and then we say, can you answer these three questions about your ideal avatar? And then you'll know what more than likely dominates their thinking on a daily basis. And first one is what keeps them up at night worrying? What is it?

That.

And literally, I know that question is used a lot, very generically. Oh yeah. What keeps you up at night? Literally? Put yourself in their shoes, they're in bed. What is preventing what is so stressful that it prevents them from actually going to sleep that night? That's number one. Number two is what do they get yelled at for, get grief about or feel guilty about when they arrive home at the end of a workday? Okay, so that, so these two, bill, are conditions in their life that they haven't been able to solve. That's why we want to know the answer to that question. If it's keeping them up at night, they haven't figured it out. Okay. And if they're getting grief or something when they arrive home every day, that's something else they haven't figured out. Well, I'm working hard. Yeah, but if you were maybe better at your job or if you delegated better or you were, you know, you know, a more effective leader, maybe you can get home at 3. You didn't have to get. It shouldn't take you 10 hours to do your job. Maybe you could do it in eight. You know, if you learn, leverage better, right? Scaling better. And then the third one is what conditions exist in your life or business right now that make calling you the owner a necessity or an urgency right now? So what conditions must exist? So, you know, I mentioned I have a 19 year old, he's in his first year in college a year ago, a year and a half ago now, he was a senior looking at applying to colleges. So if you took me as the profile, if you said we're looking for parents of high school aged children looking to get into schools and we provide services to that group. I was your core client for a year. I was your ideal avatar because what was going on in my life at that time was my son was investigating where did he want to go to learn how to be a marine biologist. So I consumed so much content that for a year now he's in school. So, okay, I've dropped off your radar as an ideal client avatar. However, for that one year, you could not communicate with me enough. So what I've learned is if I find out who the ideal avatar is and, and we have a long criteria list, but these three, if I can answer those three, what are they worried about, what do they get grief for and what is it that's going on in their life that makes it an urgent phone call right now? Then I know how I can target my messaging and my products and services to that ideal client list in such a way that I can understand what's really going on with them. And I can be obnoxious in the value. I answer those three, then I'm obnoxious and then I just have the pricing to match.

Let's play with the avatar thing for a minute and then go more into the care. So I, I've used avatars and like them in creating profiles of an ideal customer. And we look at kind of our current ideal customers, the promoters, the ones who pay a premium that like passionate core certainly things that would be consistent with inside advantage, Bob Bloom's work, right. That idea of finding that and then, and then I've developed them into avatars. Now I though don't do that, haven't done that with every business because, and I'll give you a good example from my own world, right, we do a business service and that the first thing that I look for is growth goal first and number one is do you really want to grow? It might be that you're. That you are currently growing and you want to sustain growth, get more profitable, reduce drama, things like that. That's one. The second one is you were growing and now you're flat and you're looking for somebody to come in and help mix things up and get it growing again. Both conditions are really valid. I've had great people in both categories. The people tend to act more on the latter one. So they're flat, but they're both concerned with that. The second things I look for like coachability and personality fit second, third kinds of things, then I have a whole bunch of criteria around the number of leaders involved, the size of the company, things like that. But here's what I don't pay as much attention to anymore. Don't pay any attention to are you a $5 million company or $150 million company. They both can have actually really similar kinds of problems and they show up differently. You handle them a little bit differently. But they're both totally valid opportunities or the reason for the growth. Right? Global domination, some issue with your father.

Whatever it is, whatever the.

I don't really care. There's something that I tap into. But here's a good example. So I might have a guy who's first time CEO who's a really great client of a $10 million business and really trying to grow hard. And I might have a 70 plus year old guy who wants to get it growing so that he can exit, wants to stabilize the business, exit. He wants there to be legacy in the business and to create an equity event for his retirement. All kinds of business. So they could be different gender, they definitely are different stages of life. And so what do you say about an avatar in a situation like that?

It's great. I love how you do have the various classifications. So the.

I definitely can paint a picture, right?

Oh yeah, no doubt. And you've certainly done that. So we have another classification that we'll look at and we'll say are you the CEO that's looking to make a name for yourself or have you already made a name for yourself, meaning you've had some initial success, you've grown and now you don't want to screw it up.

Right.

And so if I'm the, if I'm the CEO who's looking to make a name for myself, more than likely that person is growth minded, as you mentioned. However, they're probably More, they will embrace risk a little bit more because they're trying to, they're trying to get somewhere they've never been. Whereas the, the CEO who's 10 or 20 million, who's in their 50s and beyond, more than likely is a little bit more risk averse. They want to make sure I don't screw it up. So if I talk to the, if I talk to that emerging entrepreneur looking to make a name for myself and I try to talk about the operations, they're not as receptive to that until they've been kicked in the teeth a little bit, until they've had a rough go or something hasn't worked out, or they've grown and they realize that growth was not profitable. And now they realize, well, maybe we ought to talk about operations. Yeah, I think that would be worthwhile. The owner, who's a little bit more established and looking to create a legacy event, if you were to ask them, okay, you're flat right now. You've plateaued. I can get you to grow. But there's a, there's a chance, you know, because of the risk you'll take. It could go way down too, because, because growth can be messy. Which would you prefer? If, if I can only pick one, stabilize and reduce risk or grow, which one would you choose? My experience is that they would choose stabilizer and don't risk what I've spent my entire life building. And growth would be a nice byproduct if you could, but don't risk it. So our experience has been, is that we want to just make sure that we tailor the message in either direction because all the other mechanical things that you're mentioning are right on. How many levers do you pull? What is the risk? What is your market share? What is your ability to grow? Are there market bottlenecks that are going to get in your way? Are you, are you an accounting firm that is being commoditized by technology and now in order for you to grow, you have to embrace all aspects of advisory that have almost nothing to do with what you do. As an example, are you a manufacturing company that is going to change how you do business in order to do that, or are you going to ride it out to a certain degree? We will. We just, we want to hone in on what the psychology and the motivation of the growth is. So we're not. We're not. We can customize the experience and we can send that client on a path that will, at the end of the day, match what their personal vision is as Much as their professional vision. Because a business owner who you know is in their 60s has five years to go and can see right now I can get this chunk of money, security, legacy and I can live with that. What we have found is, might be hard pressed to take a lot of risk. So we like to.

For sure they're different. Like you know, with my older folks or folks who have an event coming up, it's more about stabilizing the growth. There might be a, we might be on the way to the next threshold that. But it's, it's much more about standing up the team, stabilizing the operations, reducing drama, things like that. Because we're geared towards an event, an exit event or something like that, or a transition of some kind and then the one who's got to make a name and that kind of thing, that's a different. Like what do we do to get you growing, you know?

Right, exactly. And, and the. So you're where. And with the more established entrepreneur, it seems to be as much about the metrics and the process and the systems as it is the people and personality. And so, you know, as they're growing, we're matching the systems with the, with the personality personalities within the company. Whereas in that emerging entrepreneur it's seemingly much more about the team and the alignment and the personalities and wearing many hats. And then we are integrating systems and processes to make them sustainable as much and as predictable in their results as possible.

So we've got this avatar or a couple of types and we're now trying to figure out what their main complaints are. So for this category or this type, we're looking for what it is they're worried about, what pisses them off, what stresses them out, what's got them up at night.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And there may be things that are on their mind that have nothing to do with your service. You know, what they might be worried about, what they get grief for at the end of the day might have nothing to do with you. And you might say, well, if I'm a business advisor and they're trying to get their kid in school, what does that have to do with me? And it may have nothing to do with you. However, in our obnoxious offer, when we structure our obnoxious offers, we have what we call a nonlinear benefit. And a nonlinear benefit is what can I bring to my clientele that has nothing to do with my service? And I'll give you some examples in a moment, but well known examples, but some that you could think about now. Is imagine for a moment your core clientele is in their 40s and 50s and likely has high school kids. And those high school kids are trying to get through high school and into college. So what if you approach a well known tutor or tutoring company or test taking company or you know, extra credit educational organization and you say, I would be willing to promote you to your core clientele. That's part of my client list. What I'd like to do is in my gold level offering or to my core clientele, I want to offer them a free strategy session on how to help your kids increase their test scores or get into college. All right, I've got 100, 500,000 clients that fit your mold. What I'm asking, tutor or expert, would you be willing to put on a free webinar and give anyone who's Interested a free 15 minute introductory session? No cost to my clientele. You can sell them whatever you want after that. Right. And, but would you be willing to do that? You know, as a trade off? Our experience is that they say yes. Oh my God, you're gonna promote me. All I gotta do is free a free webinar and a 15 minute strategy session to the 10 or 20 people that might inquire and then I can sell them whatever package I have. Absolutely. They almost always say yes. And then in our next newsletter, we send out a note to our group that says, hey, many of you have high school kids, Many of you are trying to get in, your kids are trying to get in college. Many of you are trying to do better on your exams. So knowing that at no cost to you, we've went out and vetted a couple of really top tutors and consultants on how to advance your kids schooling and their schooling experience. We're putting on a free webinar if you'd like to attend. And they've agreed to give a 15 minute strategy session to anybody. Complimentary. So I hope you take it up. Take us up on it and thank you for being our client.

So it's a value add thing and it's totally outside your realm. Right. But it addresses a core concern of that ideal client and it's unexpected.

They didn't ask for it. They didn't come to you and say, hey Bill, do you know a tutor that'll help my 16 year old pass his math test so he can get a 3.2 so I can apply to that college? They didn't come to you for that. Why would they? Because that's not your area of expertise. But you Just went ahead and did it anyway. My wife and I like to go to the US Open tennis tournament in New York City, you know, and if you're familiar with that area, the U.S. tennis center is right next to Citi Field, the Mets baseball stadium. And the parking lots are connected. Well, Mercedes Benz is a sponsor of the event. And if you, when you walk, when you park in the, in the joint parking facility, but the closest area to park is roped off and it's only for Mercedes Benz owners. If you own a Mercedes Benz, you can park in that area. What does tennis have to do with driving? Nothing. But they, It's a, it's a perk. It's a value added benefit for being one of our clients. And if, and we've, we've, we know you're tennis fans, so we sponsored the event and gave you. And there's many perks, but that's just an easy, obvious one that you can park and you don't have to walk far to an event that we figure you're probably going to attend.

Yeah, yeah, that's awesome, right? And ties in nicely. And it's like, oh, yeah, there's then brand pride that associates with that.

Here's a quick, funny one. This was big news in New Jersey years ago, about 10 years ago, I think Rod Stewart was going to put on a concert, a summer concert at the PNC Art Center. It's the outdoor amphitheater, runs a lot of summer concerts. And as you know, American Express card holders oftentimes get first crack at seats. Okay, well, Rod Stewart sold out. He would sell out anyway, but he sells out his concert and they go to Rod Stewart and they say, hey, Rod, good news. You sold out in record time. And he's like, wow, that's great. And they said, yeah, you know, interestingly enough. And he knew that the tickets go on sale to the American, the Amex holders. And he said all the Amex owners bought it. And he said, wait a minute. The tickets never went out to the general public. And they said, well, they would have, but the Amex holders all bought them out. And he said, he goes, I want to put all the tickets out to the general public or I'm going to cancel the concert. And he said, they said, we thought we were bringing you good news. And he says, I don't do public events. Sorry. I don't do private parties.

Private parties.

I don't do private parties. And so they said, well, look, Rod, it's out of our control. That's the contract with the venue. And so he canceled the concert because they said we can't do that, it's under contract. He says, well, and so he canceled it. But you know, if you have, that's, I think a good problem to have if that were to happen to you. But, but that's, that's an example of a perk. You know, amex, you're a cardholder, you get first crack at concerts. We think you would enjoy that.

That amex perk is really good. And the idea of like getting first crack and your special seating and special packages and access and obviously they do that a lot of times, but they don't usually sell the whole thing out. Right.

Which, that's what made it so unusual. It's a smaller venue. It's not like a big 20,000 seat venue that he could sell out any day of the week. This was a, I think it's five to 8,000 seat venue. And he happened to sell it all out, you know, just to his amex holders.

Yeah. So we figure out that ideal avatar client and then you're advocating being really extraordinary in value, but then also really getting paid for that. So giving a high premium for that. An exclusive kind of a price.

Yeah.

And, and people are then buying into that because it so fits what they care about.

It does. And I would challenge your listeners right now. Do you as a company, have you as a company created a path for your best clients to really be your best clients? Meaning if I wanted to go see Rod Stewart and I was a fan, I would not call up the venue and say I'm really excited about seeing Rod Stewart. Give me the worst seat in the house. I wouldn't do that. I would say give me the best seat or what's the best I can afford? Or what's the best available? In other words, for things I'm passionate about, I want to be the best customer I can be. And that venue gives me that opportunity. My challenge to your listeners are, are you doing the same for your customers? Is there a premium vip, Is there a premium and VIP experience that you can provide to your. Can you provide that path so they can elect to take that path or not? Disney has the express lane at the amusement park. Right. The airlines give you first class if you want it. They're. All they're doing is, I mean, all you're doing is sitting in the front of the plane instead of the back. But they're giving you the ability to be the best client you want. Want to be. So on the same plane, I can be in first Business economy plus economy or basic economy. And I get to choose what kind of customer I want to be. And you know what? It's been an awfully long time since I walked through first class and it was empty, you know.

Right. And between the business travelers and the reward travelers, there's a variety of people who are getting all that extra perks. The early boarding, the wider seats, the lay flat. But when you go international, it's hard to beat that ability to actually sleep.

Exactly.

Yeah, I think so. And, and I think I hear this, that, and Vern's been on and talked about this before, that that one of the things that we most forget from a strategy standpoint is pricing and not figuring out how to just price it relative to your costs or your competition, but how to price a range of things that give people a way to. A number of ways to buy. And I remember we wanted once to get our, in a prior company to get our customers to, to spend 10 times as much to invest bigger initially. And we, and so we created that 10x package, right. And then we knew in order to get that we needed to create a couple more choices. So we created three more choices, right? And we ended up offering a total of three in the end. And what really stunned us is the number of people that bought the much, much bigger packages.

Right.

Because those were intended just to throw away, to change the frame of reference for the basic one, which was already a jump up for us.

Yeah, exactly. And I mean, think about this for a moment. You know, how many people do you know that own a Rolex watch or a Tesla automobile or some other luxury product or service and then complained about the price or did they brag about the price? You know, they didn't, they didn't walk out and say, oh, Bill, can you believe this Rolex? They wanted like five grand for that. They would say, man, yeah, I've been saving up for this. They're happy to tell you what they paid for, but they brag about it, you know, and, and so they wanted, they wanted to, you know, get that better seat in the house, that better watch. They wanted to buy that premium or that little extra perk that comes with it, and they're happy to tell people about it. A friend of mine just went to Disney World, came back and said, I did that express lane. It was fantastic. Then we got this other pass where we didn't have to wait in line for the restaurants and we got the concierge this, and we got the tuck in. He was, he was not, he was Bragging. But he was also, he was also celebrating the, you know, enhanced experience. And he didn't talk about any of the stuff that came with the base ticket. He talked about all the other stuff that enhanced the base ticket.

Yeah.

And so, and so there's a, again, I would challenge the viewers that there is a segment of your clientele that wants to be able to say they are your VIP clients and if you have not created that path for them and they consider themselves to be a VIP kind of guy or VIP kind of gal, they're going to go somewhere where they can be a VIP somewhere else. So give them that option.

Right. Give them, give them the premium thing in the access. And I think understanding that that super value makes the big difference. Well, this is super helpful conversation. I hope that folks are thinking about this, about where to level up, where to go deeper with people, get in their world and create more value and then of course, get a premium. And it's one that I think we hear about all the time of people who are complaining about the profits. So we're getting margin erosion because they're answering competitors responses with price cuts and, and promotions and things like that. This is the end run on that. So I really appreciate your coming on today to talk about that. So if folks want to learn more and you've got a wealth of stuff, it's carlgould.com right?

That's right, man. It's kind of the gateway to all the things I do and you can find me through there. And we offer a free business analysis on our site. So for any of your listeners who'd like to take us up on it, just on the contact page, put in business analysis and they can get that from them.

No, that's super awesome. So thanks for offering that and thanks for coming on the show to talk about that with us. I want to remind everyone that we've got somebody like this every week to talk to you and get you thinking about your business in a new way. And hopefully it's helpful and you follow it and you pass along. We put all of these things. So there's approaching 100 now on our website@scalingupbusiness.com we also have tools, download worksheets and agendas and things like that for how to begin to apply the Scaling up framework to your business right there@scalingupbusiness.com thanks again, Carl, for being on the show with us today.

Hey, Bill, thanks so much. I really appreciate it. Great to connect again.

I want to give a special thanks.

To our original growth Guru Vern Harnish.

Our show is produced by Nye Obaid. Audio production is done by Podfly Productions. Audio editing is done by by Albert Burge. Our show notes are compiled by Ein Codena and proofread by Tim McGowan. If you got some value out of the show today, please share with somebody else and let us know the parts that you loved. Thanks again for listening and Keep Scaling up.

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