115: Mo Fathelbab Discusses The Friendship Advantage

Are you thinking about how to grow your business with near and offshore staffing? But you're also wanting to make sure that it's reliable, cost effective and really well done. I think docsa talent is the way to go. Here's why. They don't just fill your jobs. They bring integrity, top talent, and a people first approach that's hard to find. I've known the people at Doxa talent for over 20 years now and I say that you can count on them. I have. Talk to docs of talent and you won't be disappointed. Go to docsatant.com Bill G. Again, that's doxataalent.com Bill G. One more time. Doxatalent.com Bill G. Check it out today. You know, if you think about it, there's no such thing as B2B. It's people that sell to people and people work with people. And so it really does come down to relationship and communication. And today's show is all about how to form more meaningful, deeper, stronger, better relationships. And I think you'll find this show has impact not only at work, but in all areas of your life. But certainly it ought to help your leadership team, your results and so on. We're talking today to an expert in the world of developing team relationships and developing our skill in that area. So listen in. Hello and welcome again to the Scaling Up Business Podcast. I'm your host and a growth coach, Bill Gallagher. On the show with me today is Mo Fathel. Bob so Mo and I are going to be talking about the friendship advantage. We're going to talk about how to nurture and develop relationships, how relationships can make all the difference and what are the simple things you can do to manage them better. If you're someone who loves relationships, well, you're going to love this. And if you're someone who struggles with it, we're going to give you some things to make it easier. So listen in. Welcome to Show Movie.

Thank you. Good to be here.

Where are you today?

I am in Alexandria, Virginia, otherwise known as a little tiny suburb of Washington, dc.

Nice. And we've both been just on several weeks of vacation. I was gone for three weeks in Spain and the UK and you were off in Cairo and Maine and all over.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And a little bit of Newport beach and a little bit of the UK as well.

So we both been just to bring the listeners into it. We were talking as we got the audio set up and everything to begin the show and realizing we have a deep connection. Mo left the EO organization about the time that we joined the organization, late 90s. And then we both discovered we have connection and love of the Middle east and Mo's family and like that, right?

Yeah. Scuba diving and the Red Sea. Wonderful stuff.

Yeah, really good. So tell us, how do you. So Mo is founder and president of Forum Resource Network around the EO world, if you know that, or the YPO world. You know him as a resource and a guru in the world of Forum stuff, which is built on a foundation of that. And he's written a book, the Friendship seven Keys to Building youg Relationships and Transform your Corporate Culture and Drive Productivity. The subtitle is a mouthful there. You're going to be a speaker at our Scaling Up Summit, and I thought it'd be great to have you on and talk about the book and about the ideas here and building relationships. Before we go into that, what are the ways to make relationships stronger? Tell us a bit about how you get into. How do you become an expert in this? Why do you care about this world? You know, like that? Tell us your background.

Yeah, yeah. You know, I could probably go back to my teenage years and maybe it's cliche that everybody struggled through them, but I think I particularly struggled through them specifically socially. And, you know, it's not like I didn't have friends, but I just felt that I wasn't quite in inner circle. I felt somewhat awkward. I felt socially inadequate, perhaps I felt as an introvert back then. And, you know, it got so bad that I remember going to bed crying a couple of nights. So, you know, I think when bad things take people down, you know, you kind of have a choice. Am I going to just let this beat me down for the rest of my days or am I going to rise above? And so from this deep pain, I decided I am not going to let it beat me down. And I'm going to do everything I can to beat this beast down so that I can feel comfortable, happy, and really live a full life. So that was perhaps the early, early story. And through that, as a kid, I started doing everything I could. I got jobs that would teach me how to talk to people. I went to a place that sold clothing just because it put me in a situation where I had to learn to talk to people. I took speech classes, I took toastmasters. I did everything I could. I found people that I thought were role models socially and paid close attention to what are these people doing and how was it that they're so comfortable and so easy and so fun and just took Real, real, real deep notes internally. And that was kind of the beginning. What happened after that is, you know, I started to. Well, first I met Vern in college, and when I met him, I really had been at a good point in my transformation. I say, because I'll tell you, the moment I met him, I was super impressed. He was teaching a class on entrepreneurship, and by the time that semester was over, I thought he by far is the best teacher I've ever had in my life. Ironically, he thought of me as the best student he had. And that's funny to me because I was not very studious. But I loved his class. And by the time I got to him, I had figured out how to be a good student and was on the dean's list and all that good stuff. But even when he couldn't be at a couple of classes, he even asked me to teach a couple of his classes as a senior in this University of Maryland entrepreneurship course. And it was just a blast. So coming out of that, he hired me to be associate director at eo. And as a college kid, having heard about all these amazing trips to Japan and China and all these Entrepreneurs and the ACE100 list of the 100 fastest growing entrepreneurs in the country who were 30 and younger, it was absolutely mind blowing to hear all that stuff. When he offered me this job, of course I said yes, and that was just an amazing start. But what, what really kind of was pivotal is after about a year at EO and as our foundation in terms of our connection with YPO started to really solidify, YPO offered us the opportunity to get forum moderator training for a bunch of our members. And I went to that training and in a matter of a weekend, I found myself sharing things that I had not shared with my best friends, with my family, and it was liberating. Bill, I can't tell you how I thought, oh my God, this is unbelievable. I finally feel like I'm not the only one with warts. And they actually make me a better person. They helped me connect with people. And so I fell in love with this forum thing and I went to the board and I said, you know, if we want to put this on the map, we can't rely upon a week long moderator training for which our members have to fly to Toronto and spend two grand for something they don't understand. So I will go anywhere in the world, I will do these trainings for free. I will compress them to one day so that our members can actually take the time to do it while they're growing their businesses so they could learn it with their own forum rather than relying upon one person going through this weekend process to go back and start a forum. And the board said, you know what? That's a great idea. So within the next few years, between 91 and 97, I did hundreds of these things just as part of my.

Job, just to interject for the listeners who are not a member of YP or eo. A forum is a peer led group. It's a peer group where a small group of people, maybe 8:12, meet on a regular basis, monthly, quarterly, and support each other like an advisory board, but led and managed by the peers in a spirit of vulnerability sharing and peer support versus say, a professionally led, moderated group like a vistage. This group becomes like an advisory board. But is a. But the character is different because it's all peers in peer led.

Yeah, I think that's right. Now, I have not worked with the VISTAGE groups. I certainly am aware of them. And I think your description is right on. From what I understand.

Yeah, I've been around a bunch. The character, it just has a different flavor. Right. There's a kind of an intimacy that's distinct. And I was in another group here in the Bay Area for many years called the alliance of CEOs. And that was a great, powerful thing. But it didn't have the intimacy and the depth that we have in YPO and eo.

Yeah. And I would add to that. So, you know, I'm in my EO group. I was, you know, I started the group in 91. My own. Not intentional to be my group, but I started a group, one of the groups in D.C. in 91. And they said, you're not leaving. And I'm still in that group. Here we are 2018, and I'm still in that group. And I will tell you that, you know, gosh, I think it must have been 10, 15 years ago. the end of one of our retreats, we were doing our closing comments and I found myself in tears as I said, I just realized that I have shared everything with you guys. I have no secrets with you guys. Zero. You know everything about me. And what a great feeling that was. What a great feeling. So, yeah, so these groups hooked me. I realized they provide a model for powerful, meaningful, real relationships that I just have not seen as readily available in the world that we live in, whether it's with family or friends. I decided in 1997 that working with these groups is my favorite part of my job. And really rather than be an executive director. I then become executive director for the last six years of EO globally. And I loved it and gosh, met amazing people and traveled the world and learned this wonderful world of forum. But I realized that's my passion. And so I took my favorite part of my job and made it my business in 97 and starting forum Resources Network. Along the way, a lot of the people that were in these forums, which are entrepreneurs and CEOs, whether it's an EO or YPO, would say, this is quite something. I'm noticing that this team that we just built in one day is working so well and has much more meaningful relationship and conversation. Can you do this for my company? Can you do this for my executive team? So that became the next part of the model. And then a few years ago as well, I got approached by a gentleman, Bob Halperin, who used to work at Harvard Business School and at ypo, and he said, you know, I just left YPO and this forum stuff is clearly amazing. And I asked everybody and I said, you are the guy and would you be willing to talk about starting a business to cater to Harvard Business School alumni initially? And of course, we'll go to other schools after that, providing a forum program for them. And I said, you know, that sounds amazing. So we did that for about five years and it's still going. I did sell my share to Bob because I needed to focus more on my other business and I just couldn't do both. It was too much. But that's. That's really. Gosh, it's a long answer to a short question. That's how I got here. I think. Hopefully I didn't leave anything important now, but by all means, I'm open to your questions.

No, I hear starting in those teen years, developing a keen interest, becoming a student of studying people's interaction from a crisis, a moment of a personal crisis where you couldn't seem to connect. But clearly a value of yours must be connecting, relating, connecting. That must be a deep personal value because it was threatened and in crisis in those teen years and you become a student and is steadily a master of not only connecting yourself, but connecting others through prestigious global organizations and schools and things like that. And I know from knowing your work, the forum trainings, the resources, the exercises, the things like that, that you've honed that there's a lot here. So let's talk about that a little bit. Why don't you? I don't know. I know you have many stories, but you could share about Purpose and values being shared. You could talk about Ironman, you could talk about building, you've talked a little bit about building eo, but give us a picture of this through some example, would you?

Yeah, let me go back maybe a second to the title of the book and dig into the seven keys, the friendship advantage, seven keys to building relationships that transform corporate culture and drive productivity. Those seven keys, because I think that gets us to your question, are judgment free, mischievous, fun, vulnerability, kind, truth, reliability, sharing and generosity, and shared purpose and values. Your question, I think specifically at this moment is maybe a couple of examples about shared purpose and values and how those are powerful and important in building meaningful relationships. One story that I think really speaks to that for me is back in 2001, 2002, a group of my friends and I had been doing marathons and triathlons and we decided to take on Ironman. And you know, I don't know how you think of this, but when somebody says to me back then, before I did this, hey, do you want to do an Ironman? My reaction is, are you crazy? Are you nuts? Like, no chance. The people that do that, they're superheroes. I'm not that kind of athlete. No way. And you know, the longest event we had done was maybe three and a half hours, you know, Olympic distance triathlon or four hours for a marathon, something along those lines. But we decided, you know what, let's take this on. And you could imagine, or maybe, maybe, you know, maybe you don't, for those who don't. So, you know, the event for people that are average like, like me, takes 14 hours, the maximum is 17 or 18 hours, something like that. And the people that are world class probably do it in about eight and a half hours. But to get to the stage that you could do a full marathon, 112 mile bike ride, a 2.4 mile swim, and by the way, that was in reverse order. But to get to the stage that you could do an event like that, you have to spend an enormous amount of training. And for us, because we're all professionals and entrepreneurs, we somehow managed to squeeze it into 13 hours a week, 13 weeks. But some people spend even more time than that. But what that meant was, you know, not only are we spending a lot of time on a bike or on a run together, you know, it could be a six hour stretch, it could be an eight hour stretch of a couple of these events combined, but it also meant we're doing a lot of other events along the way. We're doing smaller triathlons we're doing smaller races and we're traveling. So, you know, part of the bonding that happened is all these grueling hours, pushing ourselves to the limit, but also traveling, being together, doing it in places that are fun and interesting. And so by the time we're done with this Ironman, which was in Switzerland, we had just gone through this process of giving it everything we got. He achieved what we didn't think was possible. And to look at each other at the end of that and, you know, raise our fists and raise our arms and give each other hugs and say, we did it, that is a powerful moment. It's a powerful, emotional moment. And it's just. Is. Is this deep bond that you cannot. You cannot. I don't know. It's.

It's.

It's incredible. It's an incredible feeling.

Yeah. So you shared a journey there.

We shared a journey, yeah.

And you had a common purpose, right?

We had a common purpose. We had a common purpose. We had common values. You know, we certainly valued health.

Right.

We valued travel. We valued adventure. I promise you, we had a couple of drinks along the way. We valued fun. We weren't, you know, some people are like, you know, these super, super athletes who don't put an ounce of anything bad in their bodies. That. That wasn't us. We're like, we're gonna do this. We're gonna have fun along the way.

Right, right.

And so that, you know, that shared common purpose and values absolutely was key. I don't know that we went into it thinking of that, but I look back on it and I say, absolutely. That was a solid part of what happened, of what galvanized us.

Tell us a little bit about the forum work and about the work with the companies. How do you bring this in? Or maybe there's an example of where you've transformed a company with it that you'd like to share in that regard. So how do we see this at play in a company?

Yeah. So in a company, one of the things that happens immediately when I start working with them is I see something light up. I see a spark. I take you back to that moment that I described in my first forum moderator training that I attended when I was blown away by seeing the humanity in other people and seeing the humanity in myself and the connection and the fact that we're all perfectly flawed. And so in working with the companies, sometimes you go to a place and you just see that it's all transactional. It's just all about the work and they're moving fast. And furious. And maybe they don't care so much about each other as human beings. And so in starting to work with a team, obviously I start with a conversation with the CEO, find out what they want to accomplish, find out where the holes are, find out what the relationships are like and what the level of trust is like. And then we do a survey of all the people that are going to be in these meetings. And usually I'm working with the top executive team, but some examples are the companies may be smaller and I'm working with the whole team, or it's a larger company and I'm there every month working with a different team, but usually I'm starting with the CEO and their executive team. So we do a survey. We find out what's going on. We find out how they deal with conflict. Do they deal with it directly? Do they deal with it behind closed doors? Do they deal with it back channel and backstabbing? We find out how effective they think meetings are, how effective they think their relationships are, how well they work together, how well they integrate new employees, all sorts of stuff like that. Then based on that, we agree to an agenda, we agree to a process for our initial meeting. That initial meeting is really about, you know, the five dysfunctions of a team, of course. And so the first two rungs of the pyramid in Patrick Lencioni's five dysfunctions of a team are building trust and having healthy conflict. That is the foundation of everything we do. Firstly, let's get the trust. Let's get these people to connect as human beings. Let's get them to know each other. And so I don't force anybody to share anything. We just create opportunities. We just ask questions that provide a chance, like, tell us about something that's brought you great joy. Tell us about something that's brought you great pain. Within a couple of hours, you'll be shocked how much people share and how deep it gets and how the room changes and how people start to see each other as human beings and to start to care about one another and to start to discover that, hey, I'm not the only one who has this issue. And this guy over there that I've sat next to for a year has been dealing with the same issue. And I had no idea because I never bothered to ask.

It's a great thing, you point out. We spend a lot of time doing a lot of meaty stuff in the world of strategy and outlining plans and creating milestones and things like that. But when I think time and again about what people Are like, wow, that was really great. It's when we do, like, some highs and lows, or when we do a lifeline exercise with a leadership team and a company and that kind of thing, and they're not used to that, and they're like, oh, my God, that's great. Like, we connected. Like, we've never connected. And, and. And that provides that changes in the background, the way they interact, then the next day, and then the routine matters, right?

Exactly, exactly, exactly. So the next part of focus is how are we going to deal with difficult conversations? And so, you know, I come from the world of being a conflict avoider. That's my nature. And, you know, when I ask people to raise their hands, you know, whether I see a dichotomy here, whether people are conflict avoiders or bulls in the china shop, and usually, I don't know. What's your guess, Bill? You think, you know, it's 50, 50, or do you think it's. It's a little more skewed?

I think, well, every culture, every environment's different. Right. We have listeners all over the world and that kind of thing, but for the most part, people avoid conflict.

Yeah, yeah. So, you know, I would say have.

Different strategies for avoiding it.

Many strategies. Absolutely. Right. So. So here's kind of, you know, the foundation for all my work. Everything has to be in a safe environment. That means I have to know that it's going to be confidentially treated. I also have to know that you're not going to rip my head off. Before we have these difficult conversations that can go sideways, we have to talk about some sort of protocol of how we're going to treat one another.

Right.

In that process. Go ahead.

Sorry. What's okay and what's not okay, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I say there's a sender and there's a receiver in the conversation. So if I'm upset with you and I need to say, bill, I'm upset, you did this, this and that. I'm the sender and you're the receiver. And so I ask the people in the room, I go, you know, what are the sender's responsibilities and what are the receiver's responsibilities? And we could get into those. But before I do that, I'll just tell you, the answers I get to these questions 95% of the time are the same, regardless of what group I'm working with. The story I make up about that is because we've all been in horrible arguments, and we know how it's gone sideways. We know what doesn't work? When I ask a group to make this list of the responsibilities of the sender and the receiver, it's really about codifying and agreeing to that list. I say, okay, you guys, you guys just built this list. Do you now agree that's how we're going to treat one another? As an example? You can't just walk away. If I say, bill, I'm upset, can we talk about something? You can't just walk away. You know, you can't just become defensive and turn red and start yelling at me and say, here's what you did. So first as a receiver, you know, you need to listen. And not just listen, but let me know and demonstrate to me that you heard it. That's basic. On a more profound level, as the receiver myself, what I've started to do is to say to myself, well, what's the gift? Where can I benefit here? What's the growth opportunity for me? Because people may think they act different at work than they do at home. I think it's like the iceberg. Maybe you massage the top 10%, but the 90% below the water. That's who you are anywhere, everywhere.

I think in different environments we pretend to be a different way, but in reality we bring ourself into different places. And so we might mask it, but for the most part, people can tell that when you're masking things and you're not fooling anyone, right?

Your body language says zillions and you're just not aligned with what comes out of your mouth. And so, yeah, you're like, sure, but no, Exactly.

So the response to conflict that we know from psychology tends to be either fight, which we don't see as much of, especially in a business environment, people pull it back. Or they find sort of underhanded way ways to fight, like passive or behind the scenes. And then there's the runaway, the flight. I'm going to shut down and I'm going to whatever. And then there's the freeze. I just look at you and I can think of. I've done all of them at some point or another. I remember one time when I was getting berated by a boss in a job very early in my career and I just, I'm like, oh my God, what do I say? This is the most horrifying moment of my life, right? And I just froze. And I was. And I. And it may have been a good strategy because it soon passed. His whatever was going on for him probably didn't have that much to do with me. And it passed. And then my, and my friends who, who didn't stand up for me then later said, oh my God, Bill, that was so hard. We were really feeling for you. And I'm like, yeah, why didn't you say something? And they knew in their bones that if they'd like spoken up, it just would have all gone chaotic. And so my, like weathering it in that moment was the right. Running away wouldn't have worked and.

Yeah, wouldn't have worked. Yeah. And nothing may have worked. Now, one of the terms we use to describe what you just shared is you got flooded. You got flooded. And what he did, which breaks one of the rules of the sender's responsibility, is he rambled. The train kept on coming. He said, I don't like this and I don't like that. And he repeated it a few times probably and escalated it. And so one of the senders responsibilities is be brief. You know, if the receiver is going to demonstrate listening and hearing what you just said, and if you actually want to be heard, you better be brief. You can't yell at somebody for 10 minutes and expect them to hear, to actually hear what you have to say.

Yes, There are these things that teach us about ourselves and about others, right. And over time, the wisdom emerges as you become mindful, as you notice what's going on, notice your reaction, notice their reaction and all of that. And if you bring some rules like this, like you're talking about, we see time and again it helps people to move past that, to have it become healthier and more productive kind of an interaction, right?

Absolutely. You know what's really beautiful is I often hear somebody say, thank you so much. This was not only helpful for how I deal with people at work, I took this home, right? This is helping me in other places. This is what I needed to hear.

I think it's useful for people to notice this, right. Our listeners, that if you have a horrible thing going on at work, at home, you walk into work with that, even if it's a minor thing like a problem with traffic on the way in or some road rage incident, or maybe it's you that's road raging, or maybe it's somebody on you or like whatever it is, or you've got an issue with a kid or a spouse, or you walk into work with that and that's in the background all day long. And if you have a horrifying thing and maybe you're terrified that you're about to lose your job or, or that your company is hitting a financial crisis or that a key customer is going to leave you, or your production is going to shut down or whatever, the crisis at work, you walk home with that and then that impacts your interaction with your spouse, with your family, with your pets. I'm going to go home, kick the dog. Sounds horrifying, right? But that's. This is a joke, right?

Yes. We don't really do that.

There's a reason people joke about it because somebody does and it gets taken out somewhere. And so we develop coping. Maybe you work out really hard or whatever to do that, or maybe you get really drunk. There are healthy and less healthy ways of dealing with all of these things. But that person that walks to work and walks home, there's this continuum and you're the same person the same way that you're an equipment. And the same thing's true about all the people. I hear in what you're saying that it really starts. I mean, your work is about bringing Lencioni's work to life or that the two are connected. We start first building that trust, a safe place to connect with people. Right. And then we find ways to figure out. And so we have to be vulnerable and be generous in that thing and open ourselves up if we want others to open up and to connect and. And be a little deeper and more real. But then there's that, like figuring out how do we deal with conflict and making conflict healthier because great, like effective, healthy conflict produces great decision making. Helps us deal with the challenges.

Exactly. You know, and that, that chapter I title Kind Truth. And so, you know, for conflict avoiders and maybe even for the bulls in the china shop, what. What happens if I hold it in and it bothers me and I hold it in and it bothers me more? And I hold it in and it bothers me more. It isn't like it doesn't manifest in one way, shape or form either. It manifests, you know, the way you described it, where you could see it in my body language, on my facial expressions. It manifests in my just treating you differently. It manifests in my complaining about you instead of to you. And that's obviously a killer of trust and culture, but it manifests. It doesn't just go away. And so then when it comes out, because I've held it in so much, it's not pretty. It's not pretty. I regret what I said just five seconds after I'm done talking. And it wasn't respectful and it wasn't well thought out.

Yeah.

And it's not going to elicit a good response.

Yeah. So what we see as coaches, facilitators, people outside the company, when we're in, we can see, oh, that person is covert. Right. They are clearly not on board with this thing. From the body language, facial expressions, we know that they're going to go and try to sabotage this after the fact in the company. Sometimes you can see it, and sometimes you're so busy, like, okay, everybody shut up for a minute. I think they're aligned. And you want to develop that awareness of where people are at with the thing and noticing where you're at with whatever the issue is on the table, the project of the moment.

Absolutely, absolutely. The other word you brought up, which. Which we have been touching on that I think is really important here, is vulnerability. And, you know, I don't know about you, but, gosh, most people hear that word and they think, ooh, vulnerability. Bad vulnerability. I'm gonna stay away. I don't want to be vulnerable. Somebody will take advantage of it. Yeah, I will get hurt.

Yeah.

And it's really interesting because, of course, that's happened to all of us. It certainly. I'm sure it's happened to me. But what I've come to learn, and this phrase just nailed it on the head when I heard it, is vulnerability is the currency of relationships. Without vulnerability, relationships remain superficial, period. And we all love the Brene Brown TED Talk on vulnerability. I think she is amazing. Does a wonderful job of explaining the whole thing in 20 minutes. Really good stuff. But I'm going to boil it down to one sentence for you. Vulnerability is the currency of relationships. And I didn't make that up. That's David Bradford, professor at Stanford Graduate School of Business, author of book Power Up. And when I heard it, I said, oh, my God, that's it. That nails it.

So it's probably a good place to end our show and. And point people to. Vulnerability is the currency of relationships. And I think that. And I love that you cite that and also Brene Brown, because there are additional resources. It takes a great deal of courage and therefore strength to tap into vulnerability, to do it in a powerful way and to find your home in it. Our leading value for our business is courageous authenticity. And. And we have a visual for it of a figure ripping their chest open. Right. And when I share with you the things that. It's an act of strength and courage that it takes to do that, I do it with an intent to be open, to connect, to make a difference, to contribute to something. And you could laugh and point the other way and run and like that kind of thing. But I think as our companies grow, as our leadership grows, we figure out the, the deep power. When you do that with people, people follow you to the ends of the earth. I remember in a difficult time, I had to lay a woman off. But because I'd been a vulnerable, courageously authentic leader of the business, the woman, I was laying her off, I was explaining that we were going through recession and like that. And she approached me, she got down on her knee and she was a religious person and she said that no, if she would come in in the evenings and the side and work for me for free to help me build it up again, right? Like that's not because I'm hypnotizing, right? She wanted to be around and she appreciated somebody who was real, who was authentic, who shared their shortcomings, who shared their struggles, their pain, their fear from a place of strength, right? And this strength is the commitment and the courage that is behind it. I think it's awesome.

I love that visual. I love that visual of ripping your chest open. That's awesome, right?

If you're hearing this when the show first comes out, Mo's going to be a speaker at the Scaling Up Summit. Go register, go to scalingup.com, find the summit. Come with us, see us in Denver in October. You'll hear Mo talk more on the big stage about this with a lot more razzle dazzle. This is the intimate, connected time to get to know it. And if you are listening to it after October, then look for our next summit because we always have amazing speakers coming and talking, sharing real things about growing companies from multi billion dollar success stories to stories right from the edge and so on. So those are our Scaling Up Summits. If you want to read Mo's book now, it's the Friendship seven Keys to Building Relationships that Trans Transform Corporate Culture and Drive Productivity. You'll find it on Amazon right now. So go there, find that now. And then, of course, you'll find us every week right here with the Scaling at Business podcast. And you can subscribe, get our updates, get these podcasts and so on. And get a load of free tools, download guides, all kinds of things like that@scalingcoach.com ScalingCoach.com is where you'll find us now. And thanks again, Mo, for being on the show with us. Thanks everybody for listening. Listening. We'll talk to you next time.

Thank you, Bill. It was a pleasure. Thank you.

I want to give special thanks to our original growth guru, Verne Harnisch. Our show is produced by Nye Obaid and audio production is done by podflight Productions with audio editing by Albert Burge. Show Notes compiled by Ayn Codena with proofreading by Tim McGowan. If you got some value out of our show today, please share it with somebody else and let us know the parts that you most loved. Thanks again for listening and Keep Scaling up. Are you ready to turn your goals into daily wins? You should check out our Scoreboard software. Powered by alignment, it's the official software for scaling up. With Scoreboard, you'll get an AI driven coach for priorities and KPIs and it'll help keep your team focused on what matters most. With Align, you can track your goals in real time and you'll even see results on the go. With their mobile app, you can rest easy knowing that Align has world class onboarding and support to set your team up for success. This is really more than just software, it's what I actually use to manage growth and in our scaling up client teams. Unlock clarity and results with Scoreboard by Aligned. To try it now, go to aligntoday.com Bill G One more time aligntoday.com Bill G that's aligntoday.com Bill G Check it out and try it now.