124: Rob Dube on Doing Absolutely Nothing!

Are you thinking about how to grow your business with near and offshore staffing, but you're also wanting to make sure that it's reliable, cost effective and really well done? I think docsa talent is the way to go. Here's why. They don't just fill your jobs. They bring integrity, top talent, and a people first approach that's hard to find. I've known the people at Doxa talent for over 20 years now and I say that you can count on them. I have. Talk to Docs of Talent and you won't be disappointed. Go to docsatant.com Bill G Again, that's doxatant.com Bill G One more time. Doxatalent.com Bill G Check it out today. Oh, I don't know what you're dealing with right now, but if you're up to much of anything at all, you will undoubtedly find yourself stressed out and confronted by things that are upsetting and difficult on a regular basis. So whether it's a financial crisis, a people problem, a personal issue, a relationship with a family member, a loved one, we're dealing with stuff all the time and our reactions to all of them are not always the best, most productive. Today's show is all about how to use mindfulness and meditation practices to give you some power and presence in the face of everything that life throws at you. So listen in and we'll see what we can do for you. Hello and welcome again to the Scaling Up Business Podcast. I'm your host and growth coach, Bill Gallagher. On the show with me today is Rob Dube. Rob is in the Detroit area. He's president, founder of Image One. They do well. It's not really what the show is about today, but it's a business that he's grown and the experience. Right, right. And like print management.

Yeah, yeah, you got it. You got it.

He's a Forbes best small giant company leader and he's the author of this best selling book, Do Nothing. So we're going to talk about Doing Nothing and the value that has for your leadership today. Welcome to the show, Rob.

Thank you so much for having me, Bill. It's a pleasure.

Awesome. So YVIRN wrote a blurb for your book and you're around the entrepreneurial world that we travel in and you've wrote this great book and I just love the title right off the bat. That's kind of what arrested me, Do Nothing. And I read that it's about mindfulness and meditation, which are things that I use and Recommend frequently to CEOs and other leaders to employ to get through the white knuckle moments of life, whether they be business or personal. It's great topic for our show today. Welcome to the show. You're in the Detroit area now, where it's snowing.

It is snowing today. You gotta love it. I love. We were talking before and I love that you said, when there's no mountains, what's the point?

What is the point of snow?

I know what you're saying.

It's miserable. Miserable. But where I am today, it's the air quality worse than Beijing as a result of fires that are more than 100 miles away. Right.

Nuts.

And it's. They're so big and blowing. And of course, in most of the year, we get a great weather effect here that, that blows strong winds through the bay, creates great sailing, which I love, but also cleans us out and keeps it cool and, and like that. But not this time of year. We don't get that strong onshore wind and. And so the air quality sucks. So no running, you know, outdoor stuff for a few days till this clears out. Maybe a couple of weeks. Get the treadmill out.

There you go, the treadmill.

The dread mill. Just get in the zone, get in the flow.

Listen to one of your podcasts. That'll make it go by fast.

To my podcast. That's right, you'll be pulling your hair out. Oh, my God, this guy.

That's the only way I get through my winters is podcast. Listening to your podcast on my thread.

Oh, I love you. All right, so tell us about, like, when did you get into mindfulness meditation? When did this come into your life? Why is this important? Give a little background.

Sure. Well, I'll go a little bit back to my childhood and when I was growing up, I had a host of health issues. I had severe asthma, I had eczema, I had a heart irregularity. And I always like to throw in that. I think I was one of the first kids to be officially diagnosed with a peanut allergy. Yeah, right. And I had some family issues as well. And so I was a pretty anxious kid. A lot of stress and that was certainly flowing over into my life, but I mainly kept it inside on the outside. You wouldn't have known it. I was a pretty decent student and, you know, pretty, pretty okay kid. I did some things, but I never really got caught. I was really good at it. Seeming as though everything was good. Now in high school, my best friend and now business partner since the day we started the company started selling these blow pop lollipops out of our locker. And that's when we knew this entrepreneurial bug probably hit us. We had a bunch of businesses in high school, in college, and wouldn't you know it, when we both graduated from college, we had nothing in the way of job prospects. And so Joel had read this little ad in the back of Entrepreneur magazine about this way you could learn how to sell toner. And we started doing it out of our family, out of his family's basement. And that's how we got started. So I think I was about 21, 22 years old, and with that stressful and anxious foundation, I decided it might be a good idea to get married a year later. And two years later, I thought maybe it'd be a great idea to have our first child, our son William.

At what age?

I was 24, 25 years old.

Don't add any stress.

Well, it's great, especially when you have a startup and you're making no money. And we were living with my father, and so that was pretty humbling to say the least. So I just kept right. I just kept building on that foundation of stress and anxiety. And I just didn't feel like I was as good of a person as I needed to be. I could sense it, and I tried different things. I went to therapy, therapy, which was very helpful. And around the early 2000s, I started to read a little bit about meditation. But I was just reading about it. It wasn't as much of a open topic, let's just say, as it is today. And so I just kind of looked at it as maybe, you know, kind of one of these things that I wasn't sure about it, let's just put it that way. And a couple years later, I was at a he of anxiety. I just sold my business, and I was sitting on vacation, and I was having a very rough moment. And I remembered back to this article I'd read. And I just decided to go sit in this chair across the room and kind of breathe in and breathe out. And for five minutes I made a commitment. Just go sit there and breathe in and breathe out. And I did. And at the end, I actually felt a little bit better. My problems didn't go away, that's for sure, and my frustrations were ever present. But I did feel better. And so I got curious and I started kind of looking into what this whole meditation thing was all about. I'm a bit of a fact finder, so I figured if I'm going to do this, I'm going to jump in Become a student, a practitioner. Find out some of the facts behind it. Is there any scientific proof that this could be helpful, useful? Who's doing it? You know, are there other successful leaders in the world? You know, I was trying to build my company, and so I was just looking for all kinds of answers and data points for me. And I found enough that I decided to take it on. You know, the last thing I'll just say that was impactful for me as it relates to this mindfulness meditation practice that I took on 14 years ago, was that one of the things that I had read was that taking a silent retreat would enhance the practice and enhance a person's ability to come into the present moment and be truly aware in the moment, right here, right now. And I got curious about that. I actually came out your way. I went to a place called Spirit Rock. Yep. Okay, good. And so I did a retreat there. And since then, I've done, I think, eight retreats, seven to ten days in length. And I found it to be very useful. At the end of a retreat a couple years ago, I came back and I was dealing with a difficult situation in my business. And I thought, I'm dealing with this pretty well, actually. And then I had this thing pop in my head, like maybe other leaders would find it useful to take a silent retreat. So I got this crazy idea to actually organize one. And I did, and it was a great success. And we did1 in April 2018.

I haven't done a lot of those. I shared with you earlier that, as a Boy Scout, we did, as part of this order, the Arrow induction process. They have you do a day of silent labor and then sleeping alone under the stars without a tent. Very powerful experience. But I haven't done a lot of the silent retreats. I did a lot of other. I mean, my parents are kind of hippie dropouts, and they. Well, they didn't start. My dad was an entrepreneur and a bestselling author and lots of things. But when I was about six years old, they took me to this TM Person, practitioner, whatever, who gave me my first mantra and taught me to meditate. And then the next year, they sold the business, the house, the cars, the airplane, all the stuff. And we moved into a van.

Fantastic.

In Europe and then traveled around Europe and lived in Barcelona. Things like, it was super cool, like, rich experience. Except there were three little kids, one still in diapers, and my parents in a Volkswagen camper van in 1971. And so the beginning, though, of that, like, you know, what was unusual Kinds of things. Not sort of normal mainstream stuff, but mindfulness meditation, tuning in, dropping out, all of that stuff. And I live in San Francisco right now, which, you know, you've been to Spirit Rock. We also have Esalen here.

Yep.

So there's a world of that stuff. I did the S training way back when. They used to say, be here now. And so there's a world of like mindfulness meditation. And one of the things that I did recently was a program that's recommended by doctors, MBSR Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction. And they just sort of give you a whole bunch of different mindful practices from walking meditations and breathing and light yoga and things like that to bring awareness and acceptance too.

Yeah. And that's really the type of meditation that I ended up settling on, to be honest. So mba, BSR is my practice really.

So you got the world of that right. So this is something that you can find lots of places. Mbsr Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction. Doctors will recommend this. And it's like a mixture of things, some of which I've never done before. Like body scan type meditations. I was very familiar with had still use those extensively. But things like a walking meditation was like a brand new thing. Like. And so to create a picture of the listeners. Right. Walking meditation, you take each step very slowly and deliberately. Like, notice the heel strike and then moving through the rotation and then the push off the toe and then the next heel down and like do that for 15 minutes. Oh my God, that's hard to do.

Could I share a story with Toast?

Yeah, please.

When we did the retreat in April and we had 23 entrepreneurs and leaders from around the country and we did the walking meditation with. We had a. I organized it so we had a teacher there and she took us through the walking meditation and we went out and did it and the, you know, we came back in and we had a moment. This was before we went into silence and you could ask questions and so on and so forth. Well, there was this one person who is in the private equity world and just a hard driving guy and he's a triathlete and he's always shooting for the best time and so on and so forth. And he raises his hand and he said, yeah, I just have a question and I don't know if it's so much of a question as it is a comment. I don't get walking meditation. I don't get this. Walking slow, moving slow. What am I accomplishing here?

Yeah. Wanting to understand.

He broke us all up. I mean, just the answer, he just. It just was not clicking for him.

Was this before or after?

What do you mean?

Before he did it or after he did it?

No, this was after he did it. He came back in and he said, I don't get it. But as we went on with the rest of the retreat, which is four days in length by the end, he really loved it, actually. He found it to be a really valuable practice. So it's interesting.

Yeah, it's really interesting. So talk to us a little bit about then. You arrived at this. You did this. It helped you through tell a little bit more of your own story with the application of it.

Sure. Well, in 2004, I'd mentioned this was just after I'd sold my business and I was running it as a wholly owned subsidiary. And this was a public company and there was a whole new culture that I was acclimating myself to, not very well, having been an entrepreneur basically my whole life and never having worked for anybody. And I just was not adapting. And so this stress and anxiety that I was feeling in that moment where I sat in that chair was where this kind of all came about for me. We did get the opportunity in 2006 to buy the company back. So it was 18 months after we sold it. And when I'm referencing we, it's my business partner Joel Perlman and myself. And when we bought it back, we. Right around that time, we'd read a book called Small Giants, and it's by Bo Burlingham, he's the former editor of Inc. Magazine. And we were just inspired by the book. And just, you know, for those that aren't familiar with it, Beau went around the country and met with these sort of under the. Many under the radar companies that had these really unique and awesome cultures, but were also very financially healthy. You know, they had great results. And so we just got very inspired by that and began this journey since 2006 of building a really unique culture, part of which, you know, having a mindful leadership philosophy was part of. And so just, you know, being very aware, present with our team members and, you know, when the ebbs and flows of business, at least in my business, I imagine many others have the same challenges that we look at. These things are just things. They're not good or bad, they just are. Business is. This is what it's all about. There are ebbs and flows. We're not always high, high, low, low. And so it's helped really unique perspective to us in particular here at the company, at image 1 as part of This, I went to a place called Zingerman's in Zingerman's down. You familiar with Zingerman's?

We've had Ari on the show in the past.

Oh, fantastic. Okay. Ari's been a great friend and mentor. Joel and I used to go to the deli when we were in college and now it's a community of companies that is about a $60 million or so company or family of companies. And one of the companies is called Zing train. And back in 06 they were just rolling out one of their workshops on visioning and I went to the visioning workshop and when I was there I met Bo Burlingham, the author and we struck up a little bit of a friendship. We stayed in touch and about a year later he called me and he said I identified some about eight companies around the country that I think are emerging small giants. And I'd like to invite you to travel around. We'll try it for a year, we'll see how it goes. And travel around and meet with these small giants that were in the book but then many others that we just couldn't get in the book but they definitely could have been in there. And so I started traveling around with Beau twice a year. We'd go to a city, we'd visit three or four companies over a two day period of time and just take away little nuggets here there about some of these special things that they were doing in their businesses and hopefully be able to come back and implement them at our business. And it's been such a special thing that I really luckily fell into with Beau and meeting all these amazing people across the country. Very mindful group of leaders who really care for the totality of their team members lives.

Can you define mindfulness for our listeners who may not be familiar with the term? Wow.

It's defined in many ways but one of the definitions is the ability to be in the moment right here, right now, kind of one body, one breath. And as things are coming at you, being able to bring yourself right into this moment, not allowing for your mind to go out into solving mode or frustration mode or whatever. It's just being really with whatever's coming at you at that present moment.

So I think we first learned this right in meditation. We learn first to bring awareness to yourself. Oh, what's going on? Oh, I feel a little tickle. Oh, I've got an itch over there. I've got. Oh, look at, my breathing's racing. Look at. Oh, there goes my attention. So you Start to get awareness of that in a concerted, dedicated area. But then hopefully over time you bring that to the moment by moment life. So there I am giving a talk or leading a workshop or in a one on one conversation and I notice myself getting triggered, reacting, having physical body sensations, emotions, and the awareness of that, like now I become aware of it, I'm like, oh, look at me, look at, there I go. And now instead of simply reacting, that self awareness, that mindfulness, I'm aware of where my mind is and my body and myself, then I have a little different power and relationship over it, sometimes even call it out. I'm like, oh wow. I notice I'm getting really triggered right now. What's that all about? I'll speak it out loud to other people.

Yeah, in a non judging way.

Look at that. Yeah, Room for my humanity, right?

Exactly, exactly.

And that's a pretty powerful thing to do, both for myself, but it's also startling for many other people when you do it. They're like, wow, like he could just say that. Right. I was having that thought myself.

So true, so true.

Right, so you've now developed this and you've taken others through the process. What are some of the things that, the things that you're honing in on in the book itself?

Well, you know, I talk a little bit about how the mindfulness meditation practice could be useful in a leadership capacity. And if you can even, you know, bring it into your organization, it could be very valuable. For example, we stole a thing that they do at Google. They have a program called Search inside Yourself. And we start each meeting with a mindful minute and we just kind of arrive from where we were coming from and most of us are busy. We're coming from meetings, we're coming from a whirlwind, and then you're supposed to sit down and just shift and it's just not that easy. But it's amazing when you just take a minute to arrive, you know, quiet, focus on your breath. And it's amazing how that can bring you into that moment and allow for, you know, very possibly a more productive meeting. At least that's what we've found. I share stories about other successful people that have done this. One of my favorite people is Mark Bertolini. He happens to be the CEO currently of Aetna Insurance. And when he came on, when he came on as CEO, they were struggling as a company, their stock price was somewhere in the 30s. Just to give you some context as I tell the story, and as somebody who had chronic Pain, who had some very serious things going on in his life and was a trauma, ended up using meditation as something that was very useful to him. He came into the company and as he told it to me, a lot of CEOs who come into these size companies and public companies, they'll slash head, they'll do a reduction of force, they'll call it right off the bat, just to show Wall Street, I'm going to make some moves here. And he decided instead to travel around the country and talk to the workforce and see what was going on. And he just found that there's stress level levels were extremely high. They weren't sleeping, they had chronic pain like him. And, you know, overall their happiness was, was on the lower side of things. And so then he just started asking, what are some things that we could do to help you? Certainly there was a financial component to it, and he was one of the first to move their minimum wage up to what he believed was more of a living wage. And that cost the company somewhere around 70 million down a year. But they got that ROI return on investment very quickly, as you'll hear through my story about him. But one of the things that he did was he implemented a mindfulness program at Aetna. And being insurance, they wanted to track the data, which they did. And over a couple years, they had a third of the workforce that went through the program. And they found that those that went through the program, their healthcare costs were actually reduced by 7%. And so that in itself was a huge number. Their stress levels were reduced by 28% pre to post, their sleep quality was improving by 20% and those that had chronic pain, it was reduced by 19%. They added it all up and it. They put numbers to it and they figured it was saving. For those that went through the program, there was a hard and soft savings that was equating to about $3,000 a year times, let's just say 15,000 employees. I mean, just do the math. It's crazy. So that was years ago. So now they've had, I think they have a waiting list for the program now, and their stock price is, I think it's pushed to 200 now. And he's been CEO for, I think, less than 10 years. They recently got approved for acquisition by CVS, so it'll be interesting to see where that next part of their journey goes and so on. But he was really inspiring to me, and we were able to bring back some of the best practices that they were doing at Aetna and implement them in, you know, my little company here in Detroit.

How big is your company? How many?

We have 65 team members.

Yeah, it's a good size, right? It's after 50, you still feel like. Absolutely. If you started at 5 and you find yourself at 65, it's a big, it's a big shift. Each stage brings new challenges in your relationship. Right?

It's so true. You know, it's 65 people and their lives. And I don't even to tell your audience, you know, and their families and their friends and everything that goes along with that. And you know, that's to me as an entrepreneur, as a leader in the company, as our leadership team goes, our ability to be truly present with them each and every day, each and every moment is really the difference maker. I mean, I think that's what is helps us to win business, quite frankly, because we're really in a commodity business. And so for us to have extremely happy and passionate people is a big difference maker. The customers and the future customers that we're talking to feel that genuine care and appreciation that we bring. And the nice thing about it is it's just how it should be. And so it's not contrived, it's just how we feel, it's how we are. And it's really nice that it can translate into the business, business community.

When I think about mindfulness, I think about dealing with stress and coming up with more productive, healthier things. Not having the stress of life and business eat at us and not having us react. Right. So reactions are fight or flight or freeze typically. And I know that I. It's rare that I freeze. First thing I sort of do is fight. And that's my natural first go to. And then if I get sort of irritated or disgusted or resigned, I just sort of want to check out, leave. And neither of those is often very helpful. But if I bring some mindfulness practice in the moment, oh, look at me reacting there. I see myself reacting. I get that, that third eye observing myself in the situation. I become aware of myself as a machine reacting to a situation like, oh, look at that. And then actually the reaction starts to lessen and I can actually think about the whole thing and the tension. And then the other thing I notice is that not everything that's triggering, that's upsetting, that's stressful, actually needs a response. I mean, so many things just resolve themselves. And so where I take everything as a threat and to my plans, my, like, whatever, as a personal threat, half the time or more than half the Time, it's not even about me. It's. It's like some other thing spinning out of the universe. I could just let it keep spinning and pass me by. And then the things that I do need to respond to, if I don't just react to them, which is past based experiential projection into the future. So like I see something, it reminds me of something in the past. I now expect bad things to happen in the immediate future and I start to react to them generally to fight first. I'm reacting to something that's not actually happening right now. I'm reacting to something that reminds me of something that happened in the past with a reaction from the past. And it's just crazy, right?

That's so true. It's so true. And there's nothing we could do about the past yet. We oftentimes have these, you know, kind of wirings in our head that cause us that reaction. And then of course, what we want to do is control. You know, we want to get control right now. And you know, you just, you just can't control, you know, you can't, you can't set up the future in the perfect way that you think you can. And I think just letting go, that doesn't mean you're not showing up. And I, you know, I think that's an important distinction. We show up, you know, we're here as business leaders to do really wonderful things and be successful and have successful businesses. So we can do wonderful things for our team, for our communities, for the people around us, for our customers. But as much as we just want to control it all, we can't. And so letting go can be very powerful again as long as you're showing up. And I think when you do let go, and studies have shown that your productivity and your efficiency, which is kind of a little bit how you started this, will really improve. It's amazing the flow you start to feel when you're able to do that. And I personally associate that to a clearer mind. And when I have a clearer mind, I'm a better problem solver and that moves us forward and that moves me forward in a much healthier way with better decisions. So another thing I think about too, with what you were saying, is where fear gets in the way and these decisions that sometimes we subconsciously aren't making or are making, which are very fear based, but we're not in touch with it. And I think to your point, some of these mindfulness practices, and there are many excellent ones, they can help us really become in touch with why our thought processes are what they are at that moment and if they are fear based. And I have found personally that many of my lack of decisions or poor decisions were based on fear, is because deep down I didn't really want that.

Yeah, well, fear or shame. So like the embarrassment. Right, Like. And embarrassment and shame are just an extrapolation. Another form of fear. Right? I'm afraid of looking stupid.

Yeah, yeah, it's true.

I'm afraid of being seen for the clown that I am. Right? But think about it. So maybe our conversation's resonating with you for a minute, but think about all of the things. I'll just rattle off a few things that my clients have done. You might have some things to share, but a major cash crisis. You're afraid of not making payroll or you can't pay for production, or you're worried about your rent all of a sudden and you suddenly see that you're going to run out of cash and you're not rent and like that. And suddenly you have to rethink everything. Or a massive return or a loss of a key customer or a meltdown of a key person on your team who has a mental break of some kind, a major system breaking, a failure of something like all of these things, or maybe something that you thought of and just threw your whole weight behind turns out to be completely like, lost. And now you see money and time invest for nothing. You're worried about feeling stupid. Or it could be more personal, right? You've got a problem in your relationship. One of your children, a parent or family member is facing a crisis. You're dealing with addiction, infidelity, crime, violence. All of these kinds of things we have to deal with even if we're not centrally responsible for them. They touch us all right? And in those moments, right, we just freak out. This can't be. I must stop this. I must stamp this down. No. Right. Especially if it really matters. Especially if it's your mom or your dad or your child, right? Or the baby that is your business or your department, the product launch that you're so invested in. And we hold so tightly to those kinds of things. They matter so much to us. We're so invested in the them. And then we just can't bear to see anything happen to them. Right?

Yeah. Yeah. And you and I were talking about EO before we started here. And you know, I remember when I first joined EO, which was 20 something years ago, and I remember thinking, man, these. These people have it together. Their businesses are awesome. I'm a mess, you know, And I remember the. I remember like it was yesterday, my very first meeting. And I remember saying, yeah, I'm just here. I want to learn from you. Which I did. Obviously, over the years, I've learned a ton, but I thought, yeah, I just want to learn from you. You guys know what you're doing. I have no clue what I'm doing. I have a political science degree. I didn't get my mba. I have no. And, you know, you start to find out that things aren't pretty, pretty much all around on a regular basis for many businesses. And to your point in all this, letting go of that attachment to the perfection of it all. And I find the vulnerability and the transparency to be that I've been able to sort of ease into through my practice over the last 14 years and just say, yeah, you know what? Sometimes things aren't pretty, and sometimes they are very pretty. They're just things. It's part of the ebbs and flows of our businesses. And it's okay to put it all out there, you know, in front of customers, in front of team members in the community. And boy, what a weight that is off the shoulder that I found for myself personally is just to say, hey, you know, it is. It isn't always great, it isn't always perfect. We have our struggles, but we get through them. We have a body of work and we always show up and we make things right.

I love what I'm hearing there because it's not that we want people to be so do nothing is not be an airhead or be a couch potato or just check out whatever, right? You're still the leader. You're still committed to something. You're still a fierce stand for the future of something. And yet you're accepting of the chaos of the world around you and your own humanity and the humanity of the people around you in dealing with that. And yet still standing for something, right? So the mindfulness and the meditative practices give you some peace and make you instead of the couch potato or the airhead, make you instead more like the kung fu master who bends and flows with things and responds with power, but at the right moment.

Yeah, that's so true. And you know, we have this. I like to think of it, it's a very unique responsibility. You know, when you're building a company and you're bringing people onto your team, you know, they're looking to you and they're going to feed off of you. And if you're a stressed out Mess. What kind of livelihood are they living when they go home at night and they're speaking with their family, their loved one at the dinner table and they're talking about how stressful work is and how much time are they spending at work? At least 40, maybe more hours in most cases. And what's the point of that? What's the point of us as leaders projecting all of this onto our teams and having them have a less than desirable experience as far as their work life goes, which is such a huge amount of it. And so I think this responsibility as leaders, we need to take very seriously and the do nothing. To your point about not being a couch potato or an airhead, the way that name came, I was speaking with somebody about the retreat and the person said, you know, what exactly do you do when you're on these retreats? I mean, I just imagine you sitting around doing nothing. And I laughed because you are sitting. But it's far from do nothing. You are in your head, which is extremely challenging. And most of us are running away from it each and every day and trying to find anything that could consume anything but the thoughts that we got going on in there. And that's what makes it so powerful. When I go on the retreat, for example, I oftentimes feel as I enter, I feel that my brain is swollen. It feels like there's so much in it. And in about three days in, I start to feel my brain again and I start to that curiosity, I start to say, wow, okay, hey, this is what it feels like because I'm not getting barraged with electronic stimuli, I'm not looking at emails every second and texts and LinkedIn and all the things that go along with everything that we're always doing. And we all know all about that. And it's an amazing thing to give your brain kind of a rest and let it recharge. And when, when my experience has been, and I've heard many others with the very similar experience and studies that have been done, you come back with a new energy, really from your brain recharging.

Well, that's a great place for us to begin to wrap the show. I think we've given some folks a lot to think about here and I'm sure that people hear themselves in their situation in what we're talking about here. Because if you're trying to, if you're doing more than just sitting around on the couch, right, you will inevitably find yourself in these places of stress and overwhelm and all that. And the practices in the work that you talk about in the book will give you some power in the face of all that. Some serenity, some calm, some presence. So the book is newnothingbook.com and you can go read Rob Dube and find him there and find the resources about the book and all that at the website. Of course you can find us here every week. ScalingCoach.com is our website and on that website we've got lots of tools, worksheets and stuff like that you can download. We've done, I don't know, 125 of these episodes so far and then there's blog posts and all other kinds of things. So go search whatever you're dealing with and we've probably got something to help you get going for free. We'll even give you a free copy of the Scaling up book if you'll just pay the shipping and handling cost. So if you'd like any of that stuff, go to scalingcoach.com and we'll help you out. If you need to find a coach as well in your area for anything to do with Scaling up, just let me know and I will help you find somebody who's right for you. Just drop us a line infocalingcoach.com thanks again for being on the show with us today Rob and we'll see or hear everybody again back next week. Thanks.

Thank you Bill.

I want to give special thanks to our original growth guru, Vern Harnish. Our show is produced by Shannon Amos, audio production is by Podfly Productions and audio editing by Albert Burge. Our show notes are are compiled by Ein Codena with proofreading by Tim McGowan. If you got some value out of today's show, please share it with somebody else and let us know what parts you love so we can give you more of those. Thanks again for listening and keep Scaling Up. Are you ready to turn your goals into daily wins? You should check out our scoreboard software. Powered by Align, it's the official software for scaling up. With Scoreboard you'll get an AI driven coach for priorities and KPIs and it'll help keep your team focused on what matters most. With alignment, you can track your goals in real time and you'll even see results on the go. With their mobile app you can rest easy knowing that Align has world class onboarding and support to set your team up for success. This is really more than just software, it's what I actually use to manage growth in our Scaling up client teams. Unlock clarity and results with Scoreboard by Aligned to try it now. Go to aligntoday.com BillGate one more time. Aligntoday.com Bill G. That's aligntoday.com Bill G. Check it out and try it now.