146: John Ruhlin — Special Gifts That Make A Big Impact

Are you thinking about how to grow your business with near and offshore staffing, but you're also wanting to make sure that it's reliable, cost effective and really well done. I think docsa talent is the way to go. Here's why. They don't just fill your jobs. They bring integrity, top talent, and a people first approach that's hard to find. I've known the people at Doxa talent for over 20 years now and I say that you can count on them. I have. Talk to docs of talent and you won't be disappointed. Go to docsatant.com Bill G. Again, that's doxataalent.com Bill G. One more time. Doxatalent.com Bill G. Check it out today.

Gifting, taking care of people, doing things meaningful to remember people. I think we all or the vast majority of us do a really crappy job at it, but it could make such a big difference. I saw a video recently of Jack Daly getting a gift of a personalized mug that brought everyone in the room, including Jack, to tears. And I thought that is gifting done right? And it's a guest we've had on before, John Rulen. But this is, I think, a great show to think about how to make gifting and generosity a part of your relationship management program. So listen, and I think you'll get a lot of ideas from the show. Hello and welcome again to the Scaling up podcast. I'm your host, Scaling coach Bill Gallagher. On the show with me today is a return guest all around rock star John Rulin. So John's outside the St. Louis area with his wife, three kids. They're probably not by his side today, but he's the founder of the Rulin Group, helps companies develop VIP gifting programs. And I saw a thing John did recently and I'm like, oh, we have to get him back on the show. And talk about what do you give the person who has everything? What would you give a billionaire? What, what do you give people that makes a real difference? And how is the world of gifting evolving? What's the latest? He's got some cool things to share. Listen it, John. Welcome to the show.

Bill. Thanks for having me.

Yeah.

Tell folks a little bit more about your background, how you became passionate about the world of gifting and that kind of thing for people who don't know you. Haven't met you before.

Yeah. Yeah. So I'm, I'm a Midwest farm boy. I didn't grow up in LA or New York or Chicago or Paris or some Cool city. I grew up milking goats every morning on a 47 acre farm in the middle of Nowheresville, about 45 minutes south of Canton. If you're familiar with the football hall of Fame.

Are you making fun of me now? I grew up in lots of fancy places.

Yeah, Yeah. I wish I could say I, you know, hung out in San Francisco with, you know, like Bill Gates and whatever. I was like, that's not me. And so I decided I didn't like blue collar work. I didn't like daily haze and summer. I didn't like goats or hoeing corn and our one acre garden. And so I thought doctors made a lot of money. And when you're poor, you're like, I want money. And so I went to go. I thought I was going to go to med school. And my life changed because I was dating a girl in college and her dad was on the board of trustees of the college. And he was a rainmaker and was super generous with people, always giving away. Like, like he'd find deals on noodles and buy like a semi load of noodles, or he'd buy like half the raffle tickets for the, you know, the Christian school auction and like, win the Harley. And then he would donate it back again. And I'm like, Paul, that was 30 grand. Are you insane? I'll help you sell it on ebay. And he's like, I just love making people smile. Like, I just love being generous. And so I pitched him the idea. I started interning out of desperation for Cutco, the knife company. And I pitched him the idea of giving away Cutco Pocket knives. All those and clients and relationships, they're all CEOs of big companies and, you know, financial advisors, all that kind of stuff. And he got the little twinkle in his eye that he often did and leaned back in his chair and didn't make me feel uncomfortable, even though I was pitching him knives for the second time in two weeks. And he said, john, I want to buy the printer knives and give out to everybody. I'm like, oh, you can give a bunch of grown men a kitchen tool. And he said, yep, I found out one thing in 35 years in business. The reason I have more deal flow referrals without asking, the reason I had more access, is I found out that if you take care of the family and what I now call the inner circle, he's like, everything else seems to take care of itself. So that was what inspired me. I looked at Paul at 60 and I'm like, I want his life. I want to be the guy that everybody loves. I want to be the guy that is never in a hurry. Like he would take two three hour lunches with me and he just had this aura around him where deals came his way versus him having to like claw after things. And I'm like, I want to. I mimicked him. I'm 20 years old and started to send out gifts to CEOs of $200 million companies. And I started to get access and I started to open doors and attract referrals without asking. And by the time I was a senior in college, I was Cutco's largest distributor in the history of the company out of about a million and a half people that I had worked with them over 70 years. So Med school got put on hold and I decided to build a business around helping people use gratitude, gifting, generosity. Not as like a warm fuzzy feeling, but as a way to 10x and, you know, 100x their referrals and their business. That was 19 years ago. So I'm 39 now and I've been doing this for a little while for, you know, million dollar entrepreneurs all the way up to, you know, pro sports teams like the Cub. It's been a wild 19 year ride, that's for sure.

So you still do knives, don't you?

Yeah, I mean, people ask like, what's the hot new sexy gift? And I had a couple articles written about us internationally in Business Insider. And I'm like, the stupid knives are still number one. And they're like, really? And I'm like, well, here's why. Like, you know, when you're giving gifts to people, especially, you know, whether it's a billionaire or whether it's somebody that's a CEO, like, it's hard to give them something that they don't already have 100 of. And our big philosophy is taking care of the inner circle. So spouses, families, kids, pets. It's the assistant, it's the people around them. You're never. It's hard to buy a gift for somebody that can afford anything they want, but if you make them look like the hero and to their family. And the knives are one of those things that everybody eats every day, hosts their foodies. Almost every celebration, even in 2019, you know, centers around food and breaking bread with people. And the innermost part of entertaining is usually in somebody's home. So the knives, like, you know, most people are going to go spend hundreds or thousands or tens of thousand dollars on knife sets. And so when they get something like that with their name on it, their family name on it, maybe a date, maybe their spouse's name. Like I've had people that run 750 million dollar companies that are like, John, like I can afford anything, but I literally have my kids talking about fighting over who's going to get the knife set because it has our name on it. And I'm laughing, I'm like, I can't believe people are fighting over knives. But we've seen it time and time again because it's one of those things that just kind of seems weird and odd. And so most people in business, they only do business related things. And I'm like, treat a human being like a human being. Even if they're the CEO or VP of sales or director of marketing, they are still a human. And that's really a lot of our angles come completely at gifting and relationship building and referrals just from a different angle than what is normal. So yeah, the silly knives still work to this day. My budget this year for gifting is about 450 grand personally and 350 grand, that'll be knives.

Wow. So still a big deal. Well, you know, you said a couple of interesting things there and I think we should talk about some of the, the other ones as well that you do. But I think that thinking about that and remembering that people are still humans, right after all of it, whether they represent a big customer or a big payday to you or whatever, they're still humans at the end of the day. And knowing and connecting with their humanity could make a huge difference. And I found that both, like in chairman of a Fortune 100 company, like being able to talk to them at ease, remembering that they're human, dealing with human problems and, and also like connecting to a plumber, you know, or the garbage guy. Both things that sometimes people don't regard. Like those are human beings, they have families, they have jobs, they have careers, homes, like that kind of thing as well.

Yeah, yeah, it's a simple concept. But people, yeah, people forget.

We sometimes forget you. We relate to them as, oh, they're that guy. No, they're, that's a small business person. And like that. Talk about the latest kinds of gifts that you've been doing, the things that make people feel really special. The reason that I called you back on is I saw the mug that you did. And so maybe that's a good example.

Yeah, well, the irony of it is I used to make fun of mugs as being the worst gift on the planet. And they usually are because most people, they spend 5, 10, $20 on a mug, and they put their logo on it, which, you know, if anybody, your tribe learns anything today, putting your logo on it makes it not a gift. It makes. It makes it a promotional item. It makes it all about you. And I just talked to somebody the other day that runs a huge organization and, like, one of the largest in the world in the Internet marketing and kind of like, traffic space. And he's like, I just had this influencer, this guy who runs a huge company, send me, you know, a box, and it was like, a T shirt and a hat and a mug with his logo on it. And they all went into the trash, and I'm like. He's like, I'm never going to tell him that. But I'm like, oh, like, this just drives me crazy that people in 2019, they, like, want to talk about being green. Like, stop giving a bunch of crap from China with your logo on it would be a great place to start because you're filling the landfills in Goodwill boxes with just a bunch of crap that nobody wants. But they're too. They're too polite to tell you that. So one of the things I made fun of, mugs. I had this guy reach out to me as artist from Georgia, and he basically asked me. He said, hey, John, I've read your book. I've listened to, like, 90 of your podcasts. I love what you do. I want to help you bless your wife. Will you answer these nine questions? I'm like, man, this guy's using my playbook against me. But all right, I'll play. So I answered the nine questions, and a week later, he's like, hey, the gift's done. Can I hand deliver it to you? So I made it for a public place 4:45 on a, you know, on a Tuesday. And so I could jet in five minutes and go home for dinner as my excuse if it goes sideways. And so I get there an hour early. He walks this kid. He looks like he's, like, 14, and he's wearing, like, a plaid shirt. And he's like. And he's carrying this Tupperware container that has, like, claw marks or something on the side. I'm like, is this an animal? Like, this is getting weird. And he proceeds to pull out this $600 mug. And carved into it is my wife's whole life story of her on the farm with her dad, who passed away of cancer 12 years ago. You know, her with our kids. And, like, just super detailed. It was basically almost like winning an Emmy or A lifetime achievement award, but put into this mug, and I'm tearing up. I'm like, this is unbelievable. Then he pulls out another one, and it's my whole life story. Then he pulls out, like, this $2,500 vase, jar looking thing, and carved into it is our whole life story together. And then he put out another one. And it's every. It's 50 lines handwritten of every Bible verse in the Old Testament and New Testament that talks about giving or gifting. It was like six grand. He just hands me. I'm like, dude, you were blowing my mind. Who are you? Are you in town for a conference or speaking or. He's like, no, I just came. I just came to deliver these to you. And I'm like, where are you from? And he's like, atlanta. I'm like, atlanta, Georgia? He said, yeah. I said, how long a drive is that? He said, about nine and a half hours. I'm like, dude, you are crazy. Like, I'm crazy. Like, this is nuts. So long story short is he ended up staying at our house. My wife is super private, and, like, when she saw the mug, she was like, this is the best gift anybody's ever given us. And we've started to do these pieces for, literally, billionaires. Like, I've seen billionaires cry because, you know, and even Mark Cuban and other people said this, like, everybody. Even at the highest levels, it's lonely. And we all crave as a human being to be acknowledged, to be appreciated. And oftentimes we're not appreciated by our kids, our spouses, our employees. Like, even as a leader, we all want to be treated VIP and treated special and feel like our life and our legacy matters. And when we, like. So we've started to do these pieces, we partnered with the artists, and I mean, it's crazy. Some of the people that are receiving these, and I'm like a Jack Daly. You know, we made one for him and he delivered it, and he made a video on his own saying, john, you will never beat this gift. Like, I'm the most impossible person to buy a gift for. And so seems silly like a mug, but almost everybody drinks coffee or tea. So these mugs in these jars called jars of awesome have become one of my favorite things to give. Even, you know, friends and people that were in my wedding and you name it.

Yeah, yeah. Well, so tying into that, right? I think, like, my last business, and when we came out of 2008, in 2000 into early 2009, right, the business was decimated. We. We Had a fashion jewelry company and it was very discretionary, fashion driven thing. And people just weren't spending anything in that, in, in that environment. Right. The, the world was in an economic meltdown and, and people would not spend. So we, we went back, we said okay, the old business is over. What are we going to do? And we designed, we, we looked at all the products and we pulled out things that were really inexpensive but they weren't for self purchase. So just make it cheaper. It still wasn't going to go. But what we did is we picked things that were intended to be giftable and, and meaningful. Right. They had some meaning and significance for people and, and right away we became that. Those items became number one bestsellers for the outlets that carried them. So it was unlike. That lesson is not lost. I mean then the second part of that, like a, of giftable things, like I've done coffee mugs in the past with logos on them and that kind of thing. But, and, and some of them were crap as you say. But every time we'd had a winter one, it was like.

Because it was a little bit more.

Special and it was something designed by them to treasure. And I learned that like, okay, well if I had a really unusual mug that was cool, sort of cool on its own and then suddenly it had something about us on it, then it might stay around. But a regular one just logo on is going to get thrown away or, or just looked at as crass. But if we gave you like the really oversized mug or the special shape one or the whatever, like something that made it stand out, but making it about me is. And, and then having it be truly generous, not like about, about the, the, the giver, but about the recipient. Right. So here you go, Jack. Here's the mug that represents you and it's thoughtful, it's tied into all that I think is really brilliant. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, I mean his wife Bonnie, you know, they've been. We ended up tying in each of the pictures and things we put on there, spelled out the name Bonnie and it made it just tied into him. I mean he's a very black and white, like awesome, not awesome. And when he got it, he was like tearing up and was like, what the heck, it's fun. I mean I'm in the business of playing Santa Claus and it's fun to light people up that way that are used to not being lit up. That's for sure.

So far, our listeners, right. Like so many of you probably know Jack Daly, he's been on the show before. He's a sales trainer, coach all around great guy. He's a friend and is. He lost his wife to cancer about a little over a year ago. And so that mug represented all that she was. And she was high school sweetheart. And, you know, it's truly a touching thing.

Yeah.

To connect that in.

Yeah, yeah, it was. It was awesome. He's become a friend and a mentor, advisor and, you know, a raving fan advocate, which, you know, to get somebody I can, you know, if I tried to hire Jack as a salesperson would cost me millions of dollars, or really he's not even hirable. But he's now become, you know, what we call an active loyalist, which most people with all their clients are passively loyal, like this sticker after low prices. But, I mean, people ask me how many sales reps I have, and I'd tell them 3,000. And they're like, how do you afford that? And I'm like, well, I just douse all of my CEO clients and all of my VPs of sales and directors of marketing and assistance to all of those people and things like the artifact mugs and the knives. And they tend to not shut up about this crazy giftology guy. And so it's powerful. People think that's such a waste. Why would you spend $600 on a mug? And I'm like, well, just get somebody like Jack Daly talking about you on a freaking basis. Like, what's that worth? And I never tell him he has to talk about me. He wants to talk about me. And that's. That's the big difference is most people, they view gifting and relationship building. Everybody says they're in the relationship building business, but it's very most gifting and things that they do are very transactional. And they sure don't inspire anybody to go out and be a raving fan. Like, everybody says they want raving fans, but they're not willing to do little things that would inspire somebody to go from being passively loyal to being actively loyal. So I consider it a huge honor to have guys like Jack that go way out of their way to open up doors. And one of the reasons I can get 25 to 50 grand to speak is because of guys like Jack that are sticking their neck out on the line and endorsing me to people that I probably early on I didn't deserve to be endorsed to. But they were, you know, they believed in and maybe. And one of the reasons is because of how I treated them.

So, you know, I think it's really great because so you create a custom mug for him, it's thoughtful and so on. It takes effort, it's meaningful, it's special, it's about them. Then you stand out. Right. The relative cost of that is not that high. But if you think about like traditional gifts, I'm going to send you flowers or a bottle of wine, right?

Yeah.

It might even be a really great bottle of wine. But after I'm done drinking it, unless it's like that fifty thousand dollar bottle of wine I took a picture of the other day. I'm not kidding, no joke. Special magnum of Screaming Eagle at this restaurant. I didn't drink it, I just took a picture of it. Yeah, but if I had drunk that bottle, I'd probably keep it for a long time. I do have. I have one bottle of wine leftover. That was a gift that I've kept the bottle and almost none of theirs. But this one I got after a visit to Richard Branson's new house in Ireland. And then they gave me a bottle from another island, Necker island, of champagne. And we like drank that. And I kept that because I'm like, oh, then I was over there. Right. I actually wasn't on Necker, but. But on the new island.

Yeah.

So like I kept that. But like you can't recreate that, but you could do something really special. So if you're not going to spend 50 brand, then what could you do to make it more meaningful? Have it be something they take home, that they cherish, that they keep around, that's about them, not about you. And then get remembered forever. Because I think when I go to say thank you to someone, I've often done that. Send them some flowers, send them bottle of wine, flowers die, one gets drunk, the bottle gets recycled.

Yeah, no, I mean, we put together a list for our clients if they want to do gifting on their own and not hire us to do all their gifting for them. With our service, There's a top 10 list of the worst gifts to avoid giving if you want ongoing referrals without asking. And it's things like gift cards, flowers, alcohol, food. It's all of these things. And one of the big things is that cost per impression. People are like, well, I'll spend $50 on brownies or $100 on a bottle of wine. I'm not going to spend $300 with you, John. Like, that's too much. And I'm like, well, you spent $100 to get one impression. Because they'll think about you one time and My stupid knives or the mugs will get used once a day for the next 10 years. That's 3,600 impressions. Even if you're a better marketer than I am or better service, I'm going to win because I'm more top. I'm top of mind. And there's that tangible thought and trigger that's going to take place 3,600 times. Like, I'm going to get the phone call and the referral more than you are, just by sheer numbers of how that works. And so my cost per impression is like a penny, so it seems expensive on the front end. A lot of things we talk about, but I'm like, people pick up $600 bar tabs and think nothing of it, and the next week they forget about it because it was just a consumable. It was just, you know, it was just a normal, like, Morton's Dinner or whatever. And so I challenge people to say, like, hey, I'm not saying spend more money. I'm saying redirecting the marketing and entertaining and sponsorship dollars that you're already spending and redirect 20% this way. And watch the. How fast people take your phone calls and respond to you. Watch how fast the referrals start to grow because you're treating them in a way that truly is lasting and impactful versus the. I said, thank you. Great. Lasted five minutes. I want something that lasts five or 15 years, and that's a big difference.

Yeah, I'm. As you're talking, I'm thinking about the standout things that I remember, the gifts. I just had one. Recently, Cameron Herald and Ypo or Noondara from Thailand invited Lori and I to dinner, which is great. And. But to dinner at the French Laundry. Right. And truly memorable dinner. Not an ordinary kind of thing. I will remember that forever.

Yeah, right.

That particular. Right. So something really special and stand out and something. Now, will I say anything bad about them ever? Never. Will I say, well, I sing their praises on the podcast and everyone else. Yes. Cameron Howard runs the COO Alliance. It's like YPL or eo, but for the second in command, you should go check it out and send your president COO to that.

There you go. He just got that exposure to get.

The big shout out to our thousands of listeners. You know, like, what is it that we could break through? I think about this, like, I'll help a company grow and I'll work with them for two, three years. And then. And then I'm like, I don't know what to. What exactly to do. You know, we've sent, I've, I've had a great thing with someone and send them something. So let's, let's use it as an example. B2B. A lot of our listeners would have something like that. So what do we want to do to let those people know how much we appreciated few years of working with them?

Yeah, well, I think the big thing is identifying the who. Like, a lot of times people forget all of the different important relationships that they have. Like, I was just talking to a YPO before this call, and they're the incoming learning chair, and they'd heard of, you know, we've known each other for a while and he's like, John, I heard about you, you know, coaching some of your EO and YPO clients and helping them give gifts to their vendors. And I think that's. Nobody does that. It's brilliant. Why? Tell me why you do that. And I said, well, you know, most people don't have a business if they're honest with themselves without their vendors, and yet they treat them like crap. They expect them to buy them gifts. I'm like, when you buy your vendor a gift and love on them, guess what? They, they like subconsciously, they want to go out of their way to give you better pricing. They want to go out of their way to work the extra mile. When it's the fan, you know, it's just a better relationship. But there is real dollars and cents to that. And I Learned that from OC Tanner. They're a big company out of Utah and $800 million company, and they buy more Rolexes in the US than anybody else. And yet when Rolex comes to town, they buy them and send them gifts. And I remember asking them why and they said, well, we're honored. Yeah, we spend 20, 30, $40 million a year with them. But it's important for us to have access to Rolex. And we're really happy that they make the product. And so we're going to treat them like the customer. So identifying who most important. And oftentimes people don't treat the CEO one way and treat them like at a Ritz Carlton level, and then they treat the assistant or the chief of staff at like a Motel 6 level, which makes no sense. Like, why would you treat the person who's the right hand person controlling the calendar and the schedule and their ear? Why would you not treat them like peers instead of treating them like pawns? And so oftentimes, understanding the who you're taking care of and why you're doing it and then understanding the value of the relationship. Like, if somebody's worth a million dollars to you, like, what would you be willing to reinvest to keep them as a client? Profit. And most people are like, well, I just send a bottle of wine. I'm like, they're worth a million dollars. Even if you have a 10% net, that's 100 grand, your bottom line, why would you not go to the end of the earth to really reinvest 5, 10, 15% of net back into them to keep them as the client, to grow with you? And hopefully when the relationship maybe parts ways, they're going out of their way to sing the praises to their EO form or their YPO form or on a stage somewhere. That's where guys like Cameron Harold, he's the client of ours, he was one of the first guys advocating for me because I sent him probably 100 gifts over 5 years and never asked for anything in return. And even to this day, if he's double booked, he refers me to speaking engagements and sends gifts to all of his COOs and CEOs and event planners. And so people, they don't understand that relationships should be for everybody. Says they play the long game, but they really don't. Like, they play what's it. What's, you know, what's somebody done for me lately? Game. And so identifying that list of who the most important people are, oftentimes the gift itself isn't. Is only 50% of it. It's the handwritten note that goes with the gift. It's how it's personalized and engraved, how it's packaged. Does it feel like it came from Amazon, or does it feel like you put some thought into it? So I can send knives, like the Cutco knives, to a thousand people. And based upon the little details of who it goes to and the fact that I include the assistant and the fact that I'm not sending it at Christmas or after a transaction or after referral. The timing of the gift itself is just as important as where. So people get hung up on the what. They'll come to me like, John, I want to order Bose headphones. And I'm like, first off, we're the gifting experts. Like, you've been thinking about gifts for 17 seconds. And just because you, you love Bose doesn't mean that's the best gift for your clients. You're thinking and shopping through your own lens. And so oftentimes, when we talk to people like the what we're going to Send is the last piece of the puzzle. The who, the when, the why, the how, all of that is way more important than the what. And that's where people mess up. They think they can cut corners and send things out with a handwritten. Without a handwritten note. And to me, I won't send a single gift unless it can. A handwritten note goes with it for us or our clients. Like, that's what makes it feel like it was a human being sending another human being a gift not automated on Amazon. And that's where people. They completely ruin. They're like, I sent gifts and I didn't get the response. I'm like, no, crap. You didn't get the response because you didn't follow the recipe. You decided not to put yeast in. And you think you're making bread. You're not going to make bread unless you put yeast in. I'm sorry. It's not how it works. And so they get. They get pissed off at me sometimes. Other times they're like, yeah, you're right. I guess we did kind of cut the corners. And no crap, we didn't get any good response. So I'll calm down a little bit. I'm starting to get sweaty over here. And get the, you know, come to church or something.

Well, no, it's. I've like, totally done that. And I've thought I was really thoughtful. Okay. I think of each person. What do I want them to have? What time is it that I'm doing this gifting? Like around the holidays, I'll send books to clients and I'll think about what are they grappling with right now? What book would make the real difference. And so I think about it, and then I include a little note for them. But it is like I've sent them on Amazon, right? Just. Okay, click it, sit here, type the message in. It's done. Done. We're done.

Yeah, you just want to get it off the list. I mean, most women, women in general are way better. A giftology and understanding the importance of the details, like it's going to go into a wedding. Like, you got to have the right note, the right wrapping paper, you know? You know, like sending a gift at the holidays is actually one of the. Like is one of on the top 10 worst gifts to give. It's also the worst thing to do is to send a gift. I call it no ABC gifting, no anniversaries, no birthdays, no Christmas. And the reason is, is if there's 50 gifts sitting on our conference table, even if your book was with a handwritten Note, but it's one of 50 things sitting on their table, it just kind of gets blended in. It's just noise. Whereas if that same book with a handwritten note shows up in the middle of July just because. Not as a obligation, like, I had to do this because it was Christmas or the holidays, the timing of that matters. And so I don't know if this would be valuable to your listeners, but that 10 more skips to avoid giving in the timing, they can go download it for free. It's my, you know, I can't be the giftology guy might give some sort of gift, but if they go to the giver's edge, they can download both the timing and also the. The 10 worst gifts to avoid giving. But it's. The timing matters. It just. It. It does simple thing, but. But it's one of the most powerful things that we talk about.

Well, I think. I think about that. Like, I get, you know, half a dozen Harry and David baskets in the holidays. Like, oh, who'd this one come from? Oh, yeah, that was a supplier in Asia. And, oh, you know, they're great. They're lovely. We, like, eat them all up and some disappear off into different people's homes and, you know, and then. And then there's like, the one thing that sits there for six months that's left over. Nobody opened that piece.

Yeah, right.

But there's that kind of. That kind of thing. And we all do it, but at the same time, like, does my gift even matter then? Do they care whether or not they got something from me? Doesn't. It doesn't break through any noise.

No. Most of those things get re gifted to other people. And maybe you get the, you know, the token thank you for it if they're really polite. But internally, they're like, they're already eating and drinking themselves to death. It's the holidays or it's whatever. Like, they don't need more chocolate and nuts and candy and. Yeah, but besides the point that even if they did love it and you get one impression from it and it's gone. But you have the holidays, and anytime a gift's expected or out of obligation, that lessens 90% of the impact. I mean, people are like, why don't you give gifts after referrals, John? Like, aren't you appreciative? I'm like, yeah, I'll send a handwritten note. In fact, we send handwritten notes on, you know, $9 stationery. It's a sheet of steel But I'm like, I don't send a gift after a referral because that's what takes the relationship and turns it into a tit for tat transactional relationship. And nobody's referring you business because they got the gifts. I tell people, you know, give me your list of 100 or 500 most important people, let's love on them ahead of time and guess what? They'll go send you referrals, but don't make it a tit for tat type thing and send the gift after the referral. You completely ruined what you're doing. And, and they don't, you know, they're like, oh my gosh. Like I say, I'm, I'm not in the transactional business. And that's exactly what I'm doing. I'm just rewarding a transaction. Like, that's not good. I'm like, yep, you're exactly right.

You know, I, I think if you're going to do that, like there are, they're complimentary businesses that will froze business and then we'll pay a referral fee for it. Right? If I'm going to pay for something like that, I'd rather just make it straight, like, look, here's some cash, thank you for that and I'll send you something and you can pay me. And so that's a straightforward thing. It's not about the gracious gifting of it, but it's that this other thing is about, look, just thank you for the relationship, for the work, for the opportunity, that it's not transactional in, in nature. Right? There's nothing more I need to get from you by giving you this, the most powerful gift.

You don't need to send a gift. Think about your spouse. You only give flowers or whatever gifts on anniversaries, birthdays and Christmas. That keeps you at like basically zero. Like you break even. But when you send a gift out of the blue to your spouse or to your client, and it's not because of a deal, it's just because I was thinking of you. I mean, that's how we get away with sending the same gift to 100 or 500, 1000 people. It comes completely out of the blue. It's not tied to anything other than the relationship. And people are like, well, that was thoughtful, that was amazing. And then they take it home and they show their spouse. And the spouse is like, who the heck is John ruling? Like, I've had people, wives that wanted to go to dinner or go on vacation with my wife, and I just Based upon, like, John ruling guys. Unbelievable. Like, he's so thoughtful. They'd never even met me before. But the gifts showing up out of the blue just because. Not asking for anything, like, it freaks people out in a good way. They're like, that's. It's. It's. Because it's not the norm. It's, you know, mostly transactional type. Gifting is what's done.

Yeah. Yeah. That's really great. So the. The recipient, the message, the timing, what are the other pieces?

Yeah, I mean, most of the time, people ask themselves, what's the least they can get away with? Like, when they're doing their brochures or when they're doing their gifting, they're like, oh, well, you know, what do you want to spend, Bob? I don't know. Like, let's spend. You know, like, can we get away with 17 bucks? Yeah, I think we get away with 17 bucks. You know, like that. Hey, Susie, here's your butt here. Here's. We need to send something out to our 10,000 employees or to our 50 referral partners, whatever. Like, here's your $10,000 budget. Go make it happen. And she's, you know, poor Susie's, like, looking at, like, really got to take care of, you know, a thousand people with ten grand. So I get ten dollars a person. Like, that's how people make their gifting decision is what, like, some, like, indigestion, gut feeling on a random Tuesday before Christmas. And so most of the time asking, you know, laying it out as a plan like you would operationally in any other finance or marketing, and saying, like, what's the value of these relationships? What should. What's the most we could do here versus what's the least we can get away with? When you go the extra 10 or 20%, the other person feels it. They can sit, they can tell, like, did you go cheap on this or did you go all in? And when it's, you know, if everybody says their most valuable thing in their business or one of them is relationships, then how you acknowledge, appreciate, and show that matters. So Paul was a master. My original mentor was just a master at it. Like, if he can afford to do it, he just did it. He didn't, you know, like, put it through some, like, mathematical equation. Like, he just went all in on people. And because of that, it came back to him over the course of decades a hundredfold, because people wanted. Internally wanted to reciprocate back even more than what they had received from Paul. And so he did it, you know, with the right intentions. That's the other big thing is, you know, Gary Vee and all these guys talk about playing the long game, but most people, the long game is like, you know, months from now. Like, that's as long as they get. And I'm like, you know, the Cleveland Indians I gifted for six or seven years, they're clients of ours. And then in one random Sunday, I had 38 emails were in my inbox and it was. They had referred me individually to 38 other pro sports teams. And I'm like. And it was because I had repetitively loved on them, not asked for anything. And because of that, over time, the momentum and the reciprocity started to snap. We continue to have a good product and a good service. You can't have a sucky product or service and give great gifts and think that that's going to bail you out. That's not how it works. It has to be the cherry on top to sundae. It's like when I go to a restaurant and they find out that my wife likes a certain kind of chocolate. You know, we might spend $300 at the restaurant, but if they pull out this special chocolate dessert for her at the end as a surprise and comp that on the bill, it probably cost them three bucks or maybe not even that. She'll talk more about the stupid dessert than the 3, $400 we spent on the meal. Because it was the little cherry on top of sundae that surprised her. And we're all human beings that way. We all love to be. So when we can go in and say, what's the most I can do? What's the least I can get away with? That's a powerful thing because there's a lot of talkers out there in business. But putting your time and your money towards something really shows people that you are different and that you value the relationship differently than almost anybody else.

Yeah. So make it meaningful. Don't be stingy. Don't be automated. Make it thoughtful. Make it more about them than about you. Don't be transactional. Invest for the long run. Be generous and loving in the gift. Think about the timing of it and who you're actually giving it to. And don't forget the other people that you are connected to or touching in the organization.

The inner circle. Yeah. Take care of the people around them just as much as you take care of the so called check cutter or the person signing the checks.

Yeah.

The decision maker. Yeah. Yeah. It's not rocket science. I mean, most people that hear us Speak. They're like, john, that was amazing. I love the stories, but nothing you shared was rocket science. I'm like, no. Like, these are all little things that if you follow the recipe, like, anybody could do it now. You know, we talk to people all the time. Like, it's really hard to do this for hundreds or thousands of people. And it is. That's why we exist. But at the end of the day, nothing I shared in Giftology, the book, or in our course or when I keynote, any, any of it can be duplicated. Like, I, it's not like we have like some secret sauce that we hold back, like, we lay it all out. It's. It's just a matter of, you know, even with your spouse. Like, it's one thing to say like, oh, I'm going to do this for my wife or my husband. It's another thing to actually like, listen year round and to actually put the work in instead of spending having three fantasy football leagues, like, maybe you should cancel one of those and spend a little more time on loving on your wife. People are like, I want you to do this for my wife. I'm like, dude, I can't do that for your wife. You need to be listening year round and incorporating these principles. You're not going to outsource that to me. That's the one relationship I will not gift on behalf of. If you read Giftology, you'll become a better gift giver, I promise. Like, you know, it's what's funny, People assume I'm a great gift giver by nature. Like, that's my love language. And I actually, I'm an introvert and words of affirmation are my, my love language. I use gifting to get people to respond to me, but I'm like, if a farm boy from freaking Ohio can, can, you know, be a great gift giver, anybody can be. It's just a matter of consistently being intentional about it. If you do that, you know, magical things happen.

Yeah, well, I'm certainly stimulated by the conversation. It has me thinking about a whole world of things. The book is Giftology. The company is giftologygroup.com John Rulin is the rock star. Guest. John, give us the 2 second version of what your company does. What do you actually do?

Yeah, so I mean, the simple fact is people send us their list of their most valuable relationships or we help them walk through what we call a loyalty action plan and figure out whose loyalty matters and who do they need it from. Who do they need to be engaged in actively sending Business or who's important in their world. 360 degree look at vendors and employees and referral sources and media and all that. And then once they've identified that the who and how much they should be investing or how much those relationships are worth to them lifetime, then they send us the details. And we do. We pick the gift, we ship the gift, we hand write the note for them. We basically act as their generosity manager and their gift strategist. And they outsource all of that to us so they can collect the referrals and the thank you notes and focus on the things in their business that only they can do. And so we become kind of their gifting agency.

Yeah, but what's cool is it's not like a throwaway check the box kind of thing. It's involved. They're still. I mean it stayed meaningful, even outsourced in this case. Unlike my pick something from Amazon.

Yeah, it's a. We don't. If you want T shirts or you know, or cheap mugs from China or gift cards or any crap like that, like we're the last person you should be talking to. We don't do any of that. It's only things that, that we would say are, you know, could become artifacts in that person's life. And so. Yeah, no crappy things from China with logos.

Well, I guess I should write up my list of vendors and customers sent to you, get started getting real about my generosity. Oh, that's funny because I feel it and I want to do it and yet I feel I could do such a crappy job of it.

Yeah, well, you're not alone, man. If everybody was good at this, my, you know, like Giftology group wouldn't exist. It'd be needed. It would just be another marketing channel of noise. But because most people don't do it very well, you know, it's less than 5% of people out there. It stands out and, and you know, really has that kind of long term impact to a bottom line, not just warm fuzzy feelings. There's real ROI to it.

So giftology.com what was the other one? The. The gift you mentioned?

Giftology Group. GiftologyGroup.

Giftologygroup.com and then the one but the crappy gifts. What was that?

Oh, the givers with an ass. Giver's edge.

The giver's edge. And then of course we mentioned COO alliance and Cameron Herald's group and Jack Daly is like jackdaily.net I think and we'll put all those links in the show notes for you so you can go click and follow up on all these groovy folks. And you can also find the mug a video of that Jack put out. I think it's on YouTube probably.

Yeah, you go to artifact mug artifactmug.com we actually feature that one story in Jack's video.

So well done. You'll get a picture of that. Of course. We bring you a guest or topic on all things to do with scaling your business every week right here. And then we've got all kinds of we've got 140some episodes now and counting on the website. So you can go download and listen to these on all things related to all areas of scaling up. People, strategy, execution, cash, other CEOs, coaches, that kind of thing who've who've successfully scaled the company and dealt with things along the way. All that's@scalingcoach.com along with free downloads of our tools. We'll send you a book for free right now. You just pay the shipping and handling if you want Scaling up book. So all that stuff scalingcoach.com thanks again John for joining us on the show this week and we'll talk to everybody next week.

Thanks.

Well, as always, special thanks to the original growth guru Vern Harnish for starting the whole world of Scaling up. This show is produced by Crystal Carson. Our audio production is done by Podfly Productions with audio editing by Albert Burge, show notes compiled by Ann Coudina and proofreading by Tim McGowan. If you got some value to the show today, please like it, click it, share it, pass it along to others so we can continue to grow the influence. Thanks again for listening and keep scaling up. Foreign.

Are you ready to turn your goals into daily wins? You should check out our Scoreboard software. Powered by Align, it's the official software for Scaling up. With Scoreboard, you'll get an AI driven coach for priorities and KPIs and it'll help keep your team focused on what matters most. With Align, you can track your goals in real time and you'll even see results on the go. With their mobile app you can rest easy knowing that Align has world class onboarding and support to set your team up for success. This is really more than just software, it's what I actually use to manage growth in our Scaling up client teams. Unlock clarity and results with Scoreboard by Align. To try it now, go to aligntoday.com Bill G One more time. Aligntoday.com Bill G that's aligntoday.com Bill G Check it out and try it now.