174: Susan Packard — Leaders That Have Emotional Fitness

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Well, we hear a lot of buzz around emotional intelligence and working on ourself. And we know as leaders that we've got to work on ourself, that something starts with us before we can work on anyone else. But what are the actual concrete steps? Today's show is with the former COO and and an entrepreneur who helped grow HGTV into a $15 billion business and has written a book. Fully Human is going to tell us all of her stories and the ideas and the simple steps behind the book. Listen in. Hello and welcome again to the Scaling of Business podcast. I'm your host and scaling coach, Bill Gallagher. Today is a great show. I have on the show with me today Susan Packard. Sue has helped build a whole bunch of brands that you'll be familiar with like cnbc, hgtv, Food Network. She was the COO of HGTV and she developed or helped to grow one of the fastest growing TV brands in history and build a great network group through evaluation over $14 billion. She today writes and speaks and mentors people about their promise and potential and contributes to a magazine called Prime Women. She's the author of Fully Human, which is what we're here to talk about today. The book Fully Human, the ideas in there. Welcome to the show, Susan.

Thank you, Bill. I'm delighted to be here.

Yeah. Where are you today? I forgot to ask you today.

I'm in Knoxville, Tennessee.

Oh, nice. Love that area. So fantastic.

Beautiful. So.

Before the core of the thing, give folks our listeners a little background on how you sort of arrive at this place. What is it in your life that leads you to write this book?

Well, it's my second book and my first book. I focused on success in your outer life and this book is more about success in your inner life. It's more of a leadership book. Both are their own forms of leadership, and you need both. So it really complements the first book. But writing books was not something that I thought I'd be doing. I was in an entrepreneurial career which turned corporate because the businesses that my teams and I built turned into very large, successful businesses, thankfully. And when I left my last job, so hgtv, I was second employee there. And as you said, we built that enterprise value up to 15 billion when it was, then it was sold. But when I left that job, I thought I would just do another startup because NBC for punishment. So, yeah, now I guess I am a glutton for Potter Shoot, because it's really what I love to do is startups. And yeah, most don't work, but some do, and when they do, it's a. It's a pretty exciting moment. So I knew that much about myself that I really liked building things, and so I thought that that's what I would do again. And it just so happened a girlfriend who had written business books said, look, you know, you've left that job. Why don't you think about writing a book about your career and why you were successful? And so I thought that that might possibly be an idea for a book, but it would have to be much larger than just me. And so I put that together as my first book. I interviewed a dozen CEOs. And then with this book, I realized that I only told the surface story. You know, I talked about how we carry ourselves, how we communicate, all of these things that are important. You do that when you coach, but obviously you also go much deeper than that. And that's what I wanted to do with a second book. And so that was the background for that book.

Yeah, so that's great. And then. So why don't we get into a little bit about that? I think that this is the thing that we see. I've been talking a lot lately about the common mistakes that we see CEOs make in our Top 7 Mistakes tool, exercise, that kind of thing. And the first one is failure to look in the mirror. And I think that could be both very practical in terms of the things you do, but also maybe deeper. And. And I loved your talk at our summit and thought it was really relevant as people figure out what it is that they need to be aware of and how they need to develop themselves in order to be a better leader and deserving of a different company than they have today. So let's get into it a little bit. You tell some stories in the book. And why don't you start off with Angela then?

All right.

Unless there's a different.

What? No, Angela's a great way to start. So Angela's a mid level director. I interviewed her for the book. So this book is not just, it wasn't just interviewing C suite executives. I went all around, all up and down. And so she's, she's a mid level director. And she said to me, one of the first things that came out of her mouth was I was so, I've been so career driven, I was addicted to my work. And we started talking more about that and she painted this picture of the work she did and a day in the life of Angela. And she was constantly in sort of putting out fires mode. Everything was important because she didn't know what was important to her. She didn't know what she loved to do, what really set her on fire in terms of her passions. And so she ended up being more in a passive role in terms of her career rather than a proactive role. And she was just non stop work. Which of course, you know, since I said I'm an entrepreneur, you, you do do when you're building a business, it does require a whole lot of time, but you're there because you love the promise of the idea. You're motivated by that. When you're a workaholic, you're in robot mode, you're an automaton. And that's what she was. And so we talked about that and it was really a self awareness exercise and that she needed to go through to understand herself better. What did she love to do? What was she good at? You know, because usually those two go hand in hand. And also she know she was going through this process of kind of chasing perfection, which those of us who work really hard do, but you forget that you're human when you do that. And so those two things together made her, you know, she couldn't access good eq, good emotional intelligence because she had too many unsettled emotions which she needed to find ways to dispel and gain greater self awareness. And, and then she, she eventually over time did all of that.

That's really. And how did that, what difference did that make for her and how did she approach it?

Yeah, so the biggest difference was that she wasn't 24, seven on. She was talking proactively to her boss about the things she really loved to do about her job and was trying. You know, she also was reaching out to others in the organization and other parts of the organization that were doing some Similar things to what she was doing to learn more about what they were doing. And it just broadened her sort of the vista of her experience there and knowledge of the company relationships that she made along the way. So it was just a win, win for her.

And what period of time did that take place over?

Yeah, I mean that was probably over almost a two year timeline.

Yeah, yeah. It's interesting. It doesn't happen overnight. Right. Like we develop these patterns, these automatic ways of dealing with the world over a lifetime starting in early childhood. We don't think a whole lot about them, we just react and they work enough to get us to wherever we are. And then the idea that you could do a few things differently and have an insight and the world would be altered is almost comical.

Right, right, right.

Happen in a blank. That it takes a little work and reinforcement, exploration.

And we don't, you know, in this culture, it's not a reflective culture. You know, it's just, you know, our western culture is very much do, do, do. And so we don't generally take enough time to reflect on what do I love to do, what am I good at? All of these self awareness questions that can get you to a place of feeling, peace of mind and steadiness, which is what my book's about.

Yeah. So it's interesting. I can think of clients that we've worked with in particular CEOs, but not just CEOs, other levels as well, where we've got people just putting in all kinds of hours and, and in some cases even sleeping in their offices and working late when they're at home. And I think of CEO of a public company, I was coaching for a while and he would fire off emails to people like at three in the morning as he's making connection between acting like a complete superman or trying to anyway and then that creating all kinds of anxiety and his people and that kind of thing because they wake up, they open their email at 6 in the morning or whatever it is. Right. And then they realize they've got something to do before the 9am Right, right. Their whole day is off to where it starts. Or they're just hands are in everything. And so then consequently people are weak and nobody can do anything without them and nobody's sure what's coming next. And. And yet when I think about my best work, the best moments over my career where I did something that made the huge difference, all the rest of the stuff was just kind of filler and figuring out what to do and that led to that moment. But it didn't require all those jillion hours or late nights, that kind of thing. There's a time and a place for it, but not when it's the regular thing.

Yeah. And so, you know, if you're talking about a CEO that, you know, that's a culture issue because that modeling gets perpetuated. Let me tell you a story about hgtv. So Ken Low hired me. HGTV was his idea. So he hired me. And then we found out and hired a bunch of people. But when we were about a year into it, we would often have visitors who would come to our facility and want to meet and potentially partner, things like that. And I was on the road a whole lot, and so he knew that I was mother to. Of a young child and that whole work life balance thing, which can very quickly get askew in startup. So anyway, we got into this pattern of when I wasn't traveling, which was rare, and we'd have a visitor come in. He would come into my office and he would say, susan, we're taking them out to dinner. And I hope you say no. And I said, and I would say, you know what, Ken? I think, you know, I've been on the road, you know, so we sort of role play this little thing. And I, and I said to him afterwards, I said, well, so what would you say to the clients since I wasn't there? And. And he said, well, if they asked where my CEO was, I would say that she's home with her family and that's it. And, you know, it starts at the top, these behaviors. And it really is. It's incumbent on the CEO and the full C suite to behave in a way that's respectful to the lives of their employees.

Yeah. Yeah. Which doesn't mean that you never go out with someone. It's just that it's not. Everybody has to be in everything at all times.

Right.

I think it's also not. It shouldn't be gender driven either. Right. It's not a woman executive's job to be home with her family any more than it should. It's a man's job to be home with his family at some time.

Right. And that's why what he would say is, my COO is home with her family. I just happened to be her. But, you know, and we would cover for one another. So, yeah, you know, if I went to dinner and one of the guys didn't want to do that, then the next day we'd connect and, you know, I'd share what happened. So, you know, it was very, you.

Know, it speaks to trust, too. Like, I cover for you. That requires that you trust me to do the job. And they know I may make a mistake. I might not be perfect, but you trust my intention, my ability, my experience, my commitment.

Right.

You also talk about trust with your. With Jim, your cfo. Why don't you talk to us a little bit about that?

So. So I'd been with HGTV for. We were going through the first budget cycle, and I uploaded all of my files at something like 11:40 at night. They were due at midnight, so that's par for the course. And as I was checking everything, I realized that I made this huge mistake that was going to cost my teams a lot of money. And in the company I was in before, you didn't do that kind of thing. Or if you did, you got severely reprimanded is a light way of putting it, if you made those kinds of mistakes and needed to redo work. So I didn't know Jim very well. He was the CFO there, but I called him at midnight and I said, hey, Jim, I made this mistake. It's a big one. And, you know, can I. Can we pull back what I've already uploaded in some way? And he was just very cool, and he said, how about this, Suz? How about we both get in tomorrow morning early and we make the corrections and we send them up then? And it was that simple. But when you come from an environment where no one trusts anyone else and where there's not respect and civility, then, you know, your expectation is that what you're going to get back when something like that happens is not good. So, you know, it's just. To me, it was another example, that team that I worked with, the startup team of HGTV 7 guys and me, just so happened. I mean, we hired women along the way, of course, but was. We just. We had a job to do, we believed in the mission, and. And we weren't there. We did everything we could to not make it a political environment, which is. That's a lot of ongoing work. And, you know, you have to be really conscientious about not building, like, people building silos and things like that. You know, it's focused.

So I hear in that, like, in the response, and I don't know, correct me if I'm not hearing it right, but I hear calm confidence, settledness, not anxiousness, fear, that kind of thing as well. I hear partnership also.

Yep, all of that is true. Plus, the other thing is, we had all come from, you know, television, lots of industry is ripe with politics. It just happens because it's just a human experience, you know, that you want to protect and defend your turf and all those things. But broadcast is really because you have a lot of quote unquote creative people. And so we all came from television, some background in television, with each having our own sort of war stories that we shared about the environments we worked in. So the other thing was we all were together on the vision and mission of the company being a non political company because we didn't want to do that for us anymore. Right. I mean, we wanted to build something fresh, new, wanted to create a positive culture. And when you come from the other side, you're all the more incented to want to start fresh and do it the way it should be done.

What was different then? What did you actually do in practice that made any difference with that?

Yeah. So one of the things we did, and this one is today wouldn't be as practical, but I think we still all could do a better job here, which is just about every day we jumped in a room together to brainstorm an issue to solve a problem. So, you know, with all of us physically together, you know, you could look somebody eye to eye. You can really get a sense of body language. All of those things that if you're, if there's a screen between you, it's harder to do. So one of the things I learned about trust was the importance of prioritizing face to face or at least voice to voice communication rather than everything being through emails, texts and the like.

Well, there's a certain immediacy to that. But even throwing in emojis doesn't convey really accurately emotion. But if you speak to me, I can hear if there's distress or hurry in your voice, if there's passion, and if I'm really listening for it. I can distinguish between the subtle differences in things, sometimes consciously, sometimes unconsciously. But I can listen and interact with you.

Exactly.

And I think that's where when you start to notice you're getting more and more inflamed, it's starting to like get into the same room or get on.

A phone call or that kind of thing, Right, Exactly.

I think that sometimes I feel like when we have the face to face of the video, it helps. And sometimes the audio alone helps. Sometimes I feel like I can listen deeper when someone's just there with me on the phone. Of course I don't know what their environment's like and what's going on. I Can't see some of those other things, but I. But I can sometimes hear a little bit more when I'm listening keenly.

Right, I agree with that. I think that's absolutely right.

So our teams often do daily huddles. And you had regular meetings. Did you do anything like a daily huddle?

Well, the daily huddle was the daily problem that needed to be solved. So, I mean. Yeah, so there was a lot of problem solving that way.

Yeah. In this arc of this experience, did you notice that your own EQ shifted? Was there anything in particular that you did?

Well, I would say my EQ Fitness shifted. And the distinction there is. In my book, I talk about the three steps that lead to EQ Fitness. It's kind of a. It's sort of the next level in my mind, the next level of emotional intelligence. And it gets capped at the third step with something I call we principles. And this is. This is that moment of self transcendence when you realize that you're really wanting. You know, your work now is not about your paycheck. Your work is about helping others to achieve their potential and the kind of leadership that we need more of today, truthfully. So, yeah, my EQ Fitness jumped. I was one of the youngest members of the startup team, and I did a lot of watching and. And it helped me to better model my own behavior. And that included things like because I tend to want to move really quickly, to pause so many little things. And again, you're a professional coach, so you know all of this. But I learned on the job and that job more than any, the importance of really actively listening, pausing, being present, those kinds of things that in the past I had, I would say, good eq, but this experience allowed me to take it to the next level.

Yeah, because you got pushed, right?

Yeah, I got pushed, but also because I had a few people around me that I liked what I saw, you know, and I hadn't. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

You talk about generosity in the book, and as you got your first million dollars in profit to share with the listeners that story.

Oh, yeah. So first of all, of course, when you're building a business, the fact that you're actually going to break even and make a profit is one of those moments that will never be forgotten. And we saw that. We saw our projections and we saw that we were going to make some money. And so we again got together in a room and we decided that we would give the first million dollars of our profit back to our employees. And the thing that I really liked about this this idea was, well, not only saying thank you, which was really important, but also the way we organized it was that it was completely dependent on how long you'd been working with us. And we pulled ourselves out of the pool because we would have been the longest anyway. But what ended up happening was that assistants and coordinators more often than not got a larger paycheck than the VP in their area, in their region. So when we called everybody together, we tried to keep it a secret, which is always really hard to do in business. And so some probably already knew. But anyway, we called this meeting and we told everybody that they were going to be getting these paychecks that they didn't realize they'd be getting. And, you know, it was just a very, very special moment. And, you know, in the moment when you've done the right thing. And that was one of those.

Yeah, it's awesome how transformed. I remember hearing Pandora founder talking about how I won't show this accurately, but the gist of it, how they'd run out of money from some of the people who worked in the original team. And the people so loved the idea of creating this service that essentially found the musical DNA and then put together these playlists and help people create this and discover and remember music that they stayed on and worked for free for a long period of time. I don't recall if it was a year or two years. And then they got in a bunch of money and they pulled the people in who'd been working for free for a while into the room and handed them all big fat checks. And. And he's like, that is the coolest thing ever. He's like, more than anything else, getting rich is the joy of it. Is that more than, like, the house or the car that you could afford? That's a really cool thing. Todd, how about you? You also talked a little bit about the NPR CEO.

All right, Yarrow. So Yarrow mone. He just stepped down. But one of the things he told me when I interviewed him is he said he'd have these weekly meetings and Monday morning meetings, and he'd do one on ones with his direct reports. And every time he had these one on ones, he would end by saying, is there something I can do for you this week? And he said, he said mostly they didn't take advantage of it, but. But sometimes they needed a little bit of blocking and tackling that I could provide. But more importantly, it was like their body language changed. They were reminded that I'm in this with them. I've got their back and where he was asked, of course he did what he could do, but it was more important that he showed how much he valued their work because he wanted to be a partner to them in any way he could. And I thought that was a pretty sweet story.

Well, I think it underscores a particular kind of leadership. One view of leadership that we have often before we become leaders, sometimes even later, is that I'm the leader or they're the leader because they're smarter, better, they own stuff, they have power. Right. That's the source of leadership. And while that might be a source of authority, I have title, I have control over something that real leadership is often servant leadership or powerful leadership is servant leadership where you serve the mission, the purpose of the business, and you serve the team. And your leadership comes from your commitment to serving both of those groups, both of those things. And that's what I hear in that. It's that I was talking with one of our private CEO clients this morning and I was reminding her that she is the CEO. Not because she knows any more about the technology that they work in than anyone else, or she has a higher level perspective even, or the ownership stake, but her willingness to drive this purpose and bhag that they have for the business is. And to serve the team in that role, to help bring them together and to find that that's the place where her real power comes from.

Right, right. And that's where the most good she can do is. Yeah. Because if you can't motivate your folks and if they don't connect with you and trust you, then you pretty much have an empty shell of a business.

Yeah, I, you know, it's funny, a few years ago when the former, the founder of Uber was in the news for being an all around jerk, I wrote an open letter and said, listen, I'd like to coach you. You're an asshole. And I know a lot about that. So I've been there, I still go there from time to time. And then another coach wrote to me, friend and coach. And he's like, who are you? You haven't done that kind of thing. How could you possibly coach him? And I'm like, dude, well, first of all, what kind of coach are you that you tell people they can't do something that they want to do? And second of all, like, where do you think your coaching comes from that you've been down that road necessarily, that they've been down? And you know, it's, it doesn't come from that, it comes from My commitment to having you win. And sure, I need to know something about the domain that you're operating in, but it's more about my stand for you to win and to listen for the greatness not yet realized.

Did Travis respond?

No. And that's why he's out, right? Because he didn't answer my invitation. Talk to us about your three steps or what did you call it?

Yeah, the first step is willingness to gain self awareness, better self awareness. And that's everything from what emotions might be keeping you stuck so that you're not as successful as you could otherwise be. You have to be able to dispel and clear, identify, dispel, clear those emotions if you want to take advantage of great EQ. And today in our country, we have 40 million people who are suffering from social anxiety disorder. That's just one thing. And most of them are bringing that into work. So fears, you know, the kinds of fears that can keep you stuck. Identifying those and those emotions and then finding a way to give voice to them, usually to a coach or somebody you trust, a therapist, you know, best friend. But finding a way to give voice to them, it's amazing what that does to lighten the load. So that's a part of the willingness. You know, nobody really wants to face the stuff that they're not happy about. But you're never going to get to great EQ if you can't first move that stuff down the line. So it's that part of self awareness and then the other part of self awareness is just, how am I wired? What is it that. What's important to me? Well, those are really two different questions. How am I wired? What is do I love? So me, for example, I'm wired to do startups, but I know so many people who are wired more with sort of a process brain instead of a startup brain. But knowing those things about yourself is really important and we don't take a lot of time to do that. And then the other part is, you know, what really drives my passion? What gives my life meaning? How do I want to belong to the rest of the world? Those questions, which are the deeper ones, all come from step one. Then step two is trust. That's a big step.

I know step one is a big look. I like to say it starts with a willingness to look in the mirror.

Yep.

And to consider that you're the source of the whole thing and who are you really? Right. But I hear all that. Who am I? What matters to me? How do I feel? How do I operate? What Am I suited to what? Do I care about what drives me? That's a big kind of a thing to look at.

I like your mirror analogy. It rolls into step two, which is trust. Trust building. You cannot give something that you do not feel worthy of receiving. And so you cannot enter into trust relationships if you don't feel yourself worthy of receiving trust. And so the mirror analogy I like because I heard one time someone say, put a little sticky on your mirror with a note that says, leave her the heck alone. So in other words, don't be so persecuting. Self persecuting. And I think, you know, those of us who are high achievers, a type personalities, often that goes with the territory. But when you get to that place where you've dispelled the unproductive emotions, you have a better sense of how you're connected to the world. You grow in tremendous self worth, self respect. And that's all part of what you need foundationally to build authentic trust. So that's step two.

And then the final is the trust. Yep.

Yeah. And then the final is what I call self transcendence or the WE principles. This is where you move beyond what your, you know, wants and needs are for the betterment of the company. And that all sounds sort of cliched, but basically it's what we talked about before, which is you really are motivated instead of just for your own satisfaction, you're now motivated to want to see your team succeed, individuals succeed, the promise of the idea, all of those things that go beyond just you and collecting a paycheck. And in that WE principles. And I talk about three, especially with Generosity of spirit is one that basically means being there for your people and expressing gratitude, those kinds of things. Hope, you know, a leader who leads with hope. We know what the absence of it looks like. And, you know.

Hopelessness, despair. Yeah, cynicism, resignation.

Exactly, exactly. And I have worked in organizations where that's how the leadership functioned. Basically everything was, no, can't do this, nope, sorry, won't do this, Nope, nope, I can't spend. So you end up in a place where you don't feel like you're empowered to do anything. And then the third is moral courage. That's part of WE principles, which is leading with the right set of ethics, with a good moral compass.

I feel like that there's a certain amount of courage. Right. Courage is not being fearless, but acting in the face of fears and is a strength thing. But I feel like that that is more easily accessed when we know our purpose, our values, and that big goal that we're striving for, when we're clear about that, we can often find the courage to do something that is a little terrifying.

Yep, I completely agree with that. And sometimes you're standing alone in doing that thing. If you find that, you know, those around you aren't supportive of it, then you have to take a moment to say, wait a minute, am I on the right? Am I on the side of right here? You know, because you need to ask those deeper questions before you try to force your position on someone.

So you said something a second ago that really struck something with me that I don't often hear in our conversations around scaling up and our leaders, that kind of thing. But I do remember really pretty vividly some years ago, and it probably should come up more. And that's the sort of core to the we principle. But I feel like at the startup stage and at many inflection points in the path of scaling up, there are moments where we're afraid and where we find ourselves in kind of a survival mode and then reacting in particular survival patterns that if we take the time to examine them, we realize we've been doing those our whole lives. But whatever or not we're in that place. And in that place, then there's a kind of a smallness of, well, I can't do that because then I'll run out or I'll do this or I'm not. And. And I. There's like a fear driven lack of abundance and. Or a place that there's no room for generosity in that place. And what I, on reflection, have learned and now can remember for myself at least, if I think about it, it's maybe not automatic, but is that when I take on something or when any leader takes on something really big, that all sorts of things rise up to support us in that pursuit that, you know, like a leader giving themselves to a cause and saying, I'll champion this cause, I will carry this standard on behalf of this thing and for this team or group or community or nation or whatever it is that, that all of the things that would have you say, no, I don't have time for that, or I'm not rich, or I don't have this or that, that, that the people around you and your environment kind of takes care of. So, like, I mean, simple things like, you know, when you're up to something really big, somebody will just get your laundry for you. People will walk over and go, oh, do you need a back row and not a creepy one right like there's a world of people honor the leader willing to carry the standard for something to champion something and will take care of you that you can trust that. And, and when you get that in your bones I think there's a lot of generosity. I serve that this cause, this team, this enterprise and they take care of me.

And you know that's what you all, what you said is all true and that was one of the reasons that we spent so much time trying to communicate with our folks so that we could you know if there were issues we could, we could unearth them. As you know we were building the business what we'd have all hands meetings. We would have weekly meet. You know, not like meetings to meetings death but every time we would get together we would remind everybody of what our core values were of you know, the kind what's the real. What is the mission here? You know, what's the meaning to their job. And that was again physical face to face with your team. And I guess I just, I can't say enough about it. Even in today's you know environment where technology is dominating right.

So technology is a great tool but how do you get past that and connect with the human inside? So some really recap then maybe that the beginning of this process of self mastery. So you got to work on yourself and it starts with working on you becoming aware of who you are, how you feel, how you're wired, what you care about, your purpose, your values like that and then starting to give trust to get trust. There's an exchange of trust that connects you to other people. And ultimately than giving letting go of your self concern in embracing the greater good the we of the group around you is that did I capture very well. It's great topic. I like to start with one in the room. It's funny that started for me years ago in some speaker development work. Somebody said oh here's an acting trick, you know, deliver your lines in the mirror not just to get them down but until you can both be delivering lines and actually connecting with the other person. And I thought it was a ridiculous kind of an exercise until I did it enough that it floored me. And I was moved by who I was and what I was up to. It was a palpable moment I could still feel and remember. But that idea of starting with the person in the mirror on any enterprise I think is a really captures it. Susan Packard. You can go actually the book is fully human but you could get at and you could take an EQ test@susanpackard.com so I suggest you go there, take the EQ test there and then get the book fully human. It's been so great. You were a great speaker at our summit like so many of our speakers are, and I really appreciate you coming on and talking Talk a little bit more in depth with our listeners.

Well, I am delighted that you invited me and it was a lot of fun.

Reminder to our listeners, we're here every week with a new topic and if you want this whole back catalog, you've got something on your mind, you're working on something. Go search on the website@scalingcoach.com we've done over 175 of these episodes now diving deep into something and all of our guests often have some tool or download or assessment or something that you can use to go a little bit deeper. So go look for all that stuff@scalingcoach.com you'll find downloads of the scaling tools there as well our free growth kit. I'll even give you a copy of the Scaling up book for free if you just pay the shipping. That's@scalingcoach.com thanks again Susan. Talk to everybody again next week.

Thanks Bill.

Once again, big thanks to the creator of all things Scaling Up, Verne Harnish started with the Rockefeller habits and grew it into the world we know today is Scaling up that's benefited so many thousands of companies. Thank you Vern. The show was produced by Lucy Summers. The audio production is done at Podfly Productions Audio edited by Albert Burge. The show notes are compiled by Ein Kudina and proofread by Tim McGowan. Please like subscribe and give us a review wherever you got the show from so that others can learn about it, pass along share it to some somebody else that you think would benefit from it. We put a show like this out every week so if you subscribe, you'll get it right there. You can subscribe over@scalingcoach.com as well and you get a little more added content by going there. You could also let us know what you want more of or less of. Give us your thoughts, send us a Note to info scalingcoach.com thanks again for listening and keep scaling up.

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