190: Steve Kosch — Media Training for CEOs

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You need to speak, you need to be on camera, you need to go on a podcast. What you need to do to be a better, more effective, more compelling speaker. So we're talking with a veteran broadcast journalist here about media training work. What are the things that you need to do to get better? What are the few simple ideas to up your game in the world of public speaking and especially with regard to the media? So listen in.

Hello and welcome again to the Scaling Up Business podcast. I'm your host and scaling coach, Bill Gallagher. So on the show with me today.

Is a longtime broadcast veteran who knows what's up in the world of media, trains people in the world of media. He spent years starting as a weathercaster, moving up through affiliate stations in markets like Bakersfield, but then moving on to LA in New York and eventually to cnn, working with some of the greats in the industry. And in a world today dominated by YouTube upstart still clearing acne from their face, Steve Koch knows a little something about looking like a pro, which I think is of real interest to our CEOs and leaders on a regular basis. So we want to talk about how do you come across as credible and authoritative and yet relevant in today's thing? Welcome to the show, Steve.

Hey, appreciate it very much, Bill. Looking forward to our conversation together. Yeah.

Where are you today?

Newport Beach, California.

Oh, it doesn't suck there.

No, it does not. That's why. That's why as a former weathercaster, I knew all the weather across the country and I knew where I wanted to live. And that's why I'm here, where I am, where there's, I don't know, 320 days of sunshine. So I figured this one out. Right.

You know, I was recently in the Middle East Doing a series of workshops with growing companies across the Gulf region. And I, I was talking with a new friend in Dubai and she's thinking about opening a US Operation. She's like, where should I go? And I'm like, well, it doesn't suck in Orange county. And Laguna beach might have the right vibe for you.

Right, right, yeah. No, it's.

For some of that. I'm like, and you're definitely going to love it over the extremes of heat that you have in the Gulf and the humidity.

Oh, yeah, that's right. That's right. Well, Bakersfield, one of my stops there, reminds me of Dubai with the he. But. Yeah, no, I know what you mean. No better place than where I'm at.

You know, we all think when you go to the Gulf region that it's a desert. We imagine the sand dunes of Saudi Arabia and North Africa, but you get there and you're like, holy crap, it is humid here. And I don't think people realize how shallow most of the Persian Gulf is and how humid some of those places are in their peak.

Yeah, yeah. Reminds me of the Southeast when I was in Atlanta. Yes, very hot, humid in the summertime and the humidity was just unbelievable. Matter of fact, I always said the first three or four months of summer, don't go outside. Or you go from your air conditioned car to your air conditioned home to your air conditioned business because it was hot.

Or when you get in the US Gulf and you've got that thick, thick air that you can see through.

Yeah, yeah.

Or you can't see through.

Right, yeah.

Well, okay. So before we get into it, let's talk about the arc of your career and background so people can see how things have evolved and what you've done. I think that's probably helpful to get that picture before we move into the core idea of what, what they need to, to do to improve their media and speaking presence.

Okay. All right. Well, you, you, you, you know, I come from a broadcasting background and we were taught to keep it and always ask, what's in it for the audience? Why should the audience want to know this? So with that in mind, I'll try to keep it short and make it relevant and maybe share a story or two. I was 14, 15 years old in Southern California here. Grew up my mother's house, my father's house, and just had a fascination with weather. I have no idea why, but I just love to see the clouds every day and the movie, the movement of that, the wind, the rain. Matter of fact, I would take readings in the morning and at night. So to get the high and low temperature for the day. And then I'd go to the 6 o' clock news and watch. Keep in mind, I'm 15 years old and I'm watching the news to see how the weather people are talking about the weather that day. And for some reason I started keeping a journal and writing down some of the cute phrases that they would say to describe the weather that particular day. And then as fate would have it, about six months later, when I got out of my 15th year of high school, or 15 years old, I should say a freshman, went to Oceanside, California, where my parents had a vacation home. And there was a cable television station just coming at that time. Remember, that's when cable TV is just beginning to make its mark on, on the country. And there was a TV station, some.

Of our listeners just roll their eyes.

And the others are like, oh, yeah.

They, yeah, it did, it did start then. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I mean it was, that's, that was extremely fun for me as it was when I worked on. And I'll tell the story, I worked at CN and also the Weather Channel, which were both media startups. And then with this cable vision station at 15 years old, it's like, oh my gosh, this is right on the, on the grand frontier. But I started volunteering at this cable TV station and one thing led to another, started helping the weatherman put all the numbers on the board ready for the nightly news. And as fate has it, he was sick one day and I was called in to come and do the weather and, and that I scrambled around to find or borrow somebody's tie and went on. And then that led to further appearances. Almost every school break that I had, summer break, winter break, so forth, and just love talking about the weather.

And then I think, pause there, because I think our listeners, I think so many of our businesses, there's a kind of a fortuitous mistake accident. It wasn't really supposed to happen that so many people I talked to, like, how'd you get into your business? And there's, there's often a little story like that and, and probably there. We all have lots of little breaks, but some we don't stick with and carry on and they pass and we barely remember them. But then there are others that are the beginning of, you know, a lifelong passion and pursuit, like a career. I think it's really interesting that you had that. I, I had a similar thing. I had a radio show years ago and it was really by accident That I, you know, found myself in the RA station late one night and somebody didn't show up, and they're like, why don't you go on? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, continue.

Yeah, so I. For me, as it turns out, I was modeling. You know, that's a term that we hear today that doesn't mean copying, but it means modeling. And that's what I was doing when I was watching these television weathercasters in Los Angeles at the time, and I was modeling. I liked how they talked about the weather and this and that. I didn't copy their words per se, but I took the best of what I liked, each of them and evolved into my style. So, yeah, yeah, I guess modeling is a really good. Good word for that. But I. And also, too, I think I was just following my passion and the universe opened up and said, hey, here's an opportunity. Go for it, kid. And I did. But so that after high school and then college started. Radio and television, mainly radio. And then I realized that I was better at television and had an opportunity. Bakersfield, California, that we talked about, which is very hot. It's in the central part of the. Of the state. And I know where. You know where it is, Bill. But listeners may not. But from there, I saw another opportunity.

You know, because people in other parts of the world who haven't been here yet have this notion that California is all kind of this sunny Southern California beach thing. But we're a big state that runs.

Yes.

You know, far north, far east and west, and. And with huge variances in the style and the culture and the whole thing.

So, yeah, it is. It is. It's fascinating. It's a beautiful state. It really is. And once you move or drive north of Los Angeles, you're into some very pristine, beautiful country. And it's just when you get to those population centers that it's over. Overpopulated, crowded and. And noisy. But I do like California for that reason.

Yeah. So you go to Bakersfield, you start to learn your chops, and you move through the ranks there.

Yeah, yeah. I was there about two and a half years. And keep in mind that cable was also there, so I could watch the local Los Angeles feed into Bakersfield, which is a couple of hours north. So it's a pretty good distance.

Yeah.

And so I'm watching all these people on television that I continued to watch and knew of. And I happened to see a weathercaster that was doing the weekend weather that I didn't think was very good. I used to watch him, but he just didn't have it anymore. I think he was a little too old. And so, not knowing any better, I sent a tape in, audition tape, which is what we do, video audition tape. And the news director looked at it and said, come on down. So we had an interview and I was hired to do weekend weather in Los Angeles for a whole year at abc. And what's interesting about that is that he's the same gentleman that hired Dennis Swanson. He's the same person that interviewed and ultimately hired Oprah a few years later. So that's my claim to fame, you know, Dennis something in me and Oprah. So there you go. But, yeah, after ABC in Los Angeles, had an opportunity to start the Weather Channel. Go and start the Weather Channel in Atlanta, Georgia. And this was again, something brand new. It had not been done before, 24 hours of weather. But I thought as a weather guy that I was totally in heaven and a great opportunity to learn more about the weather from all over. And I was brought in as the west coast representative. I knew the west coast weather better than the other people.

So there's definitely a geeky thing. Yeah, that's the thing that people, you get all into the intricacies of it and the patterns and there's a lot to learn and know. And I have a, you know, background as a sailor and a pilot. And we geek out in another way about the weather and. Yeah, yeah, the specifics and then. And then also the feel for it, right? Oh, yeah. Red sky and morning, that kind of thing.

Right, Right. Yeah. So, yeah, you talk about geeking out. There was 52 on camera meteorologists at the Weather Channel. And it's, you know, when it first started, then there's probably another 25 to 35 meteorologists behind the scenes. So whenever there was a tornado in Toledo or anywhere else, we were all over it. I mean, we were just so excited to talk about it and to explore it and to learn more about it. I did that for a couple of years, two and a half years, and then had the opportunity to move to ABC in New York City, which was totally different, totally out of my wheelhouse because I had never really experienced winter weather or the Northeastern weather, which is different from Southern California and even from Atlanta. But I did that for almost a year. And then from there I jumped to another startup, cnn. They were in their early days and had the opportunity to be a weathercaster for them back when it was just beginning. And that was exciting, too, to see how the industry was evolving and changing. I remember in the early days There was just no way to. We didn't have the money, number one at either the Weather Channel or CNN to send a reporter or a camera to see that tornado in Toledo or that breaking news story and wherever. But we were innovative and smart. And I think this, I learned that in my business now is to, to, to be smart and to think how can you get something done inexpensively or on the cheap and, or Jimmy rigged or however it might. You may want to describe it, but we, we actually would just call up people on the phone in that area wherever that news event was happening or weather event was happening, and we'd ask them, so what did you see? What's it like? What's the damage like? So we would kind of deputize these people and we would get the story. And that's how we hung in there in the early days where it was really tight, money was tight, but we made our point. And then in 1985, CNN made its name when his first name was. When we were the first to continue carrying the launch of the space shuttle. And it blew up, as you recall, the challenger in 1985 or 1986.

Yeah, I remember some of the early days of CNN seeing live events and for the first time there was a channel that was like 24.7news and you could just stay following them. Of course, the extent of following every minor change of whatever and bad information and stuff has been taken ad nauseam today, but. And mocked. But, but the notion that you could just follow it live and as they developed a network of, of reporters and assets around the world where they could be quickly on scene with stuff, it was really a change in, in the media.

Yeah, it was, it was a disruptor for sure. Because I remember even in the early days, people would, if an event took place, they would, they would not go to their local TV station, they would go to cnn because we, we covered it just as quickly as anyone else. And like you said, we were devoted 24 hours a day to, to news. So. And then with the Gulf War and everything else, we established our name and, and the credibility and people just came to us because we were in our lane, so to speak. It was all about news, even if it was just a Senate. Hear that? But we covered it.

I think if you think about the development of things these days. And we saw recently with the Arab Spring and how they were using Twitter in particular to organize and share information and get around, of course, quickly folks have gotten savvy to that and now we've got mesh networks and other Apps being used to get around stuff. But people's use of media as new media technology emerges, I think will always go out. So whether it's to share something fun or social or trendy or something really breaking and even alarming or of concern, we're going to see that keep changing over time. Right. It's not going to stay static.

Right, Right. And it really hasn't changed much. We always want to know from someone else their experience, we want to know their story, what's their angle? What did they see? Are they eyewitnesses? Tell us about it. So it's still, it's still people oriented. And it, you know, in the early days of CNN, this is in the 80s, of course, this was new technology and people really didn't have cable everywhere like it is today. So it was, it was growing and evolving and technology was getting better. And then we got satellite trucks and microwaves and all this sort of technology. But I'm kind of thinking back now that most people, most of the younger generation growing up today have their own broadcasting studio in their hands. They can go Facebook live, they can do YouTube live. All of these tools that were unheard of back in the day and it was groundbreaking in the 80s. But now everybody takes it for granted because it's so common and so easy.

Right.

But, you know, we were scrapped.

But of course, with it have come some epic mistakes. People doing things when they don't realize cameras are rolling on them. Hot mic moments, which happen, of course to world politicians, but also happen to CEOs and entrepreneurs who get caught saying things that they wish they hadn't or in moments that they wish. But you have to know today that you cannot count on being anonymous anytime, anywhere. A moment of indiscretion or whatever can be captured by someone, even accidentally.

Yes.

Not trying to do you in and then shared for sensational value.

Exactly. And I advise all of my CEO clients and executive leaders, senior leaders, always think that you're on stage because you are. People are always watching. There's always easy access to a phone or a video or an audio recording. So if you come in with the presence that you're on stage, you're pretending you're on stage every day, you really are, because people are watching everything you say, everything you do. And if you come in with that mindset, I think you're going to be better prepared and be the leader that other people will want to follow. Because you are the perfect example of what executive presence looks like, what a leader should look like. And those are the Finer things that we teach. When we meet with these individuals, our goal is to make them feel comfortable, confident and convincing. I'm talking about Media Training Network, which I'm a part of now. I left CNN in 1993 and came to Southern California to start the Video Editor. And after a couple of years, people started realizing that I used to be on television and recognized me and said, hey, can you coach me? So that's how Media Training Network began, just kind of as an offshoot from my video editing business. And now it's kind of evolved to what it is today. So that's my story. It was a little long and I apologize in advance.

No, well, I think we've woven through that some interesting ideas already for people. And one is that the underlying principles I hope people are beginning to get. As technology and media options and tools change though, there's still something that's consistent and the first one that you just ended with is always be on stage. I wonder if you have a story to share with us about somebody who got it right or wrong in that realm, this notion of being always on stage as an entrepreneur, CEO, right.

Well, I will say that it was a television appearance and I was hired by this gentleman who is a portfolio manager and he had the opportunity to go on cnbc. He had an audition in New York to be a guest commentator to give his opinion on how the stock market was doing and different sectors and things like that. And he did not know it was an audition. He thought he was just going to be on television there. But he came to me and we spent several encounters or several sit down sessions with him and I would tell him what the media is like, what to expect, what it's going to be like. I gave him some questions and then we would record them and see how he answered them. Then we'd fine tune that and go again, go again, go again. Until he got better. Turns out he went to New York and it was an audition. There was 20 or 30 other people from around the country that came and he ended up getting the position as a guest host, guest commentator. So he went on for a four minute segment and I kind of figured that the pricing, the average 30 second television commercial on a network level is $125,000. So that's what, $800,000 worth if I do my math right here, for four minutes worth of airtime. And then he got back, asked back again for another four minutes and now he has a standing opportunity to go back. So I guess he did it right and that he Was prepared. He knew what to say, he knew his message. And with my help, I helped to give him the finer nuances of how to look and sound and be credible and believable. And the rest is history. So that's a really good example of something that went right. Maybe a bad example would be a time I was on CNN and we went out on the field with the news crew and I interviewed store manager. I think was for Thanksgiving, how the turkeys were selling, selling that day or this week of the season. And he. I had asked the question. The store manager would answer the question, and then he would go, hey. Had a little tick, nervous tick. Every, after every answer, he'd say, hey. Huh? And it was just. I was. I had to control myself. But fortunately, because it was on tape, we were able to edit those out. But that's something that went a little wrong, but it wasn't critical. And I don't think he lost his job because of that. But it can definitely do that. And there's been examples. I mean, I've got so many examples, but. And I won't mention names, of course, because it is embarrassing, but they can inadvertently say something, or maybe they. What they said was their words were right, but their body language was saying something totally different. And there's a. When the audience sees that, they sense that it. It's not congruent. And they believe the body language more than they do the words. So that has happened. And that can hurt a company's reputation. It can lose market value in the company as well. So there's things you really need to be careful of and be prepared. A lot of CEOs think that they can just wing it. They're really good CEOs. They know their stuff, but they think they can wing it because they can.

But the problem, because they have in other situations. Right. But recorded media, in particular live media, is far less forgiving than a selling situation or a party or a stage.

Correct? Correct. Yeah.

Yeah.

When the stakes are high like that, if you're getting exposure like this, you want to make sure it's the right kind of exposure and you say the right things. I remember one gentleman Preparing for a 60 Minutes interview, and questions were asked all maybe 100 different questions in preparation for this interview. And sure enough, when it came airtime, they asked a question he wasn't prepared for and it threw him. It didn't know how to. How to wing it. So, you know, it can go. Can go wrong both ways. So it's always better to be prepared. And that's why somebody like our company, Media Training Network is extremely helpful and certainly worth it when the stakes are this high.

Well, you know, when years ago, at the ripe old age of 21 or 22, as a new marketing director, regional marketing director for a tech business, I got some coverage, kind of unplanned one day and I just was sort of fast and loose and talking off the top of my head without any real preparation or thinking or a lot of experience. Right. And what made the cut later were some kind of funny things that I'd said but were really somewhat disparaging to our business and our work and came out definitely wrong in editing, but served to make the piece funnier and more attention getting, which obviously is the. The desire of any editor, producer. They want the piece to get the most attention more than anything else because they're in the business of selling ears and eyes and. Right. And. And they're not thinking about protecting that. So I learned very painfully I was dressed down by my boss to not freelance again in the future and to run things through him and you know, like that years later. Well, a few years later, anyway, I went through media training for Sprint when I was a exec there. And it was really interesting because they taught us to have like three to five points that you want to make and, and to organize those points. And then they're kind of in the background. If you think about today, our CEOs, you've got your brand promises, you've got your company values, got your purpose, there's all the points that you need. You probably have five, three and one there. You could use any or all combination of those and just do all. Do everything of those again and again, forever and ever. And anything you're new, just keep tying it back to that. But they taught us that. And first, like how to organize that and prepare that. And then they would throw at us like, gotcha. Kinds of questions that were intended to sort of throw us off. And it was our job to use those questions, no matter what they sounded, to just go back to whatever we wanted to say.

Right, right.

Which you hear politicians do all the time. And. And it was just brilliant. It's great you brought that question up. And I think it reminds us why we care so much about working together, whatever it is.

Right, right.

That we would find a way to pull that back and pause a minute and not get triggered in. And I think that's pretty essential. Right?

Yeah.

And you don't have to do that without being phony.

Very true, very true. And you Brought it up earlier, not so much anymore today, but maybe on the higher level situation, a lot of these reporters, especially at the smaller stations, they're trying to make a name for themselves or the smaller newspapers, they're trying to make a name for themselves as a reporter. They want to get to the larger market. And so they will, you know, maybe come up with a few of those gotcha questions or make you look a little embarrassing or press you a little too hard just to see what. Where this goes. And you never know, somebody could, you know, be totally upset and walk off the set and, and, you know, cause some ruckus or cause some kind of conflict. So be, be, be aware of that. And as a reporter myself, I would. I would purposefully ask questions that I wanted answers for because I pretty much already had figured the story in my mind and outlined it already. So I wanted this person to be interviewed. I wanted him to say this or that.

Right.

And we had the luxury of that when it was on tape. But in the studio, it's a little bit different. So you got to be prepared because you go into the spotlight like that, you never know what's going to happen unless you are trained ahead of time.

Yeah, that's a really good point that I think ties back to then knowing where you're going to go. So if you organize these thoughts beforehand, you know your three main points or whatever, you're prepared to jump up and speak to something in that moment. I think that the other thing you were talking about is like knowing where you want to end the call to action or where you want to go. So many times as we get ready and prepare our guests to come on the show, they like have four or five different links that they want to share with people. I'm like, no, no, no. We want to direct people to one single thing, not the four different things you have, but what's the one main thing that you wish they'd do more than anything else? Let's put people to that. Offer that length after listening to this show.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I always advocate that when preparing for a speech as well, start with the end. What is your call to action? What do you want them to do? And so once you have that clearly established in your mind, the rest of the speech or the program will kind of play itself out. But also too, you noticed at the beginning, before we went on air, I asked, who is your audience? Can you give me a thumbnail? Even though I've listened to your program quite a bit, I wanted to know who your Audience is what you know, so I can give them targeted information that would be relevant to them and interesting to them and not make them bored. So, yeah, knowing your audience and if you're in a newspaper or going on a television program, watch the program ahead of time, read the newspaper, find out how that reporter writes. Are they funny, are they witty or are they more serious? Figure out their style, their personality so you're better prepared. And if you can get questions ahead of time or find out from the reporter how what angle they're taking on this story, you'll be also better prepared. And if you're the expert with your company in this particular industry and that's what they're asking about, you better be up on your toes. You better have studied up and not be embarrassed by not having accurate information. And also, too, here's the big thing, Bill, if there's any big takeaway from this conversation so far with a reporter is to give your information and then close your mouth. We all want to be so helpful to the reporter that we just go on and on and on and on and on and give them all the background information. And what that does, for instance, a print reporter it later, as they're looking back at their notes and they're writing the story, they get confused on what you said or take it out of context and then all of a sudden you're misquoted or something. Yeah, yeah. So you've got to be careful about that.

Yeah, it's a really good point. And I think what you said earlier in the example too, if you get called to be in 60 minutes.

Yeah. Good luck.

Very powerful show. But that could be the end of your career.

Yeah. Or it could be the beginning of something. Really.

The beginning of something. But that is a powerful thing that could go lots of different ways. And you really, I mean, that's definitely playing big leagues. And you have no idea. That's not some local fluff piece about your hot new product or service, the opening of your retail store. That's, that's very. So knowing that. I think what you said there about knowing where you're going and not making assumptions. So you, you have listened to the show. You did your research before, it was clear. But. But then you asked me again who the audience is, because maybe it's not who you think it is or assumed from your pre research and maybe I have a different idea about it and that could take it in a very different direction.

Yes, yes. Yeah. And also too, we're not everything, you know, we talked about be on Stage. Now that can be anywhere. You don't physically have to go on a stage or you don't physically have to go on television and do all these interviews. Every day you're on stage and every interaction you have with your customers or even your staff, you're on stage. And that's where you begin to exude that executive presence, which is how you present yourself, how you show up, the words you use, and lots of other things. So it's important. It's not just the media, it's all of business and all of life.

Well, if I'm in a debate, a conference, a meeting, or there's some unplanned opportunity to go up and talk about something, even if it doesn't directly relate to my business, I'll think about in the sort of panicky blood pumping moments before I have to go take the mic or take the stage or it's handed to me or stand up wherever I am, I'll think about what's the main idea I want to communicate here. And then are there a couple of supporting points? I'll think about the sequence of those points, if it's longer or focused, but I'll really try to get it down to like a main point and say two or three sequenced things that support that. And I'll organize those quickly in my mind the order they should be in that. And then I can speak as if, you know, like really, really eloquently in the moment. Because I thought of that just in that like blood rushing moment before I suddenly had to open my mouth.

Yeah, yeah, so you were right. You prepared yourself and you knew where you going to go. Although that can change, but at least you have a game plan and then you can execute that and hopefully shine in that opportunity.

Yeah, I think the next thing. So we opened with before we came on, knowing the audience, what do they want or need, I think is where you formulate those ideas you asked at the opening here you had an idea before we even got on that allowed you to adjust it. But I think that's an important one. Maybe you've got a story with a client who got that right or wrong where they knew and understood and that saved the day, what the audience wanted, needed.

Yeah, I think. Well, one comes to mind right away and I hadn't thought about this, but I do remember and it made an impact on my teaching of how to prepare for an opportunity. It was a female, Female doctorate. She had a doctorate and I don't remember what industry she was in, but she had written A book and was very well credentialed. And she got up to speak and she used words like I could not believe. Now I'm not talking jargon, not business jargon, but she used words like fixin and I'm gonna and things like that that just didn't fit her executive presence. I mean, the juxtaposition was just unbelievable. And I thought she's just hurting her career, hurting her, her image here because of the word she uses. And I think that happens a lot, especially nowadays. You hear the younger generation using words such as like, I know, right? And you know, you know, you know. And there's nothing wrong with those words, but it's the overuse of those words that can get us in trouble. And those, those, they're called filler words. Another one is ah and, and, and okay and like, and all that kind of stuff. It's basically because we don't know what we're going to say and we don't like silence. So we put those words in and what does it do? It makes us seem less intelligent and less confident. So that was a flashpoint that stuck in my mind and I had to share that because people don't realize what they say because they know themselves. If they do look in the mirror, it's in the morning and that's it. But they don't really watch themselves as they perform or as they move. If they looked at themselves, even use a smartphone, I tell my clients to do that. Look at a smartphone and just say something and you'll begin to see things that maybe are a little distracting, like nervous tics, or you always brush your hair back or you do this or you do that just to be aware of what other people are sensing. Now, oftentimes people don't know what they don't know, so that can be a problem too. But generally you can pick up the little finer points of how you present or how you talk or how you look pretty quickly. And then it's people like us that will come alongside and say, try this, try that.

Well, having a mirror, right, playing back your recordings, your video and audio as I'm, I think in general it's pretty uncomfortable, especially in the beginning, to listen and watch yourself. But over time you get comfortable with who you are and you hone and refine it. I know that I still do that a lot, especially when I'm just leading the, like, not an interview or whatever. I'm leading the conversation. And it's not something that's well prepared. I'm addressing something that's come up or. And I'll put more of those pauses in like I just did.

Yeah, I heard that.

But I think that, like, that process, it's great to train it out of yourself, but it's not like you don't ever have to do one of them.

Correct.

Yeah.

It's the overuse that gets us in trouble.

It's that. Yeah. The other thing, I think that's useful. And so here's a pet peeve that I have when I watch other people, and I've worked very hard on it myself. I sometimes do a great job of it. I sometimes do a passable job. But I'll watch someone get up and speak on camera, on. On audio or in. More often in person. And they have something about their presentation, their Persona that's overwhelmingly obvious and not typical, normal, you know, bland, mainstream. And they never speak to. To it. And they keep going on and on and on, talking. Maybe it's a strong accent or a. Or an unusual dress or a subject matter or something like that. And they never, like, address it. It's like the elephant in the room then. And I watched somebody years ago and I've worked on my own, but this guy had one that was so really, really obvious, and he had one of these. This eye condition. I don't. I don't remember what he called it, but one of his eyes looks off in the other direction. Right? Okay. Physically looks way.

Yeah.

And so he'd get up on stage in front of people, he'd go, hey, I'm. Blah, blah, blah. And listen, one of my eyes is looking up the other way. By now you've noticed.

Yeah.

And I just want you to know it's been this way since I was born. It doesn't hurt. I can see you fine. In a few moments, you'll stop paying attention to this.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And it was so brilliant. Yes. Because he would just take it out of. Of the concern. But I've watched other people come up and they're overly. In some particular way, and they never. They, like, try to cover it up or whatever, but it's right there and we can all see it. And I wonder, like, how many other people are obsessing it. So when I go and speak, I just did a bunch of stuff in the Middle east, as I mentioned, and I come in, I'm like, hey, I'm from California. You might notice I'm in jeans. I'm certainly going to swear at some point during this thing, maybe a few points. I'm informal. I'm Casual. I may be salesy. I like try to address the kind of stereotype that I can often be with people and then encourage them to include it. And I find that instead of getting then feedback later. God, you're very salesy. It's like a vaccination that got up front. Oh, yeah. He said he was salesy. I knew that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, and you're showing your vulnerability by. By that gentleman with the eye. He's vulnerable, but he's very authentic. And people, you know, it sets everybody. Okay. He's got an eye condition. He admits it. And okay, you're right. I'm gonna move on and not bother that. But that endears the audience to that gentleman in that particular instance because he was real and vulnerable and so good for him. I think he did a. Did a great job up. And that's what people that go on television or on stage, you mentioned some other distractions, how they dress or maybe it's a big brooch or if it's a TV interview, you've got these big earrings hanging down and. And it takes away from your message. And the most important reason you're there is to give a message and not to have people distracted because of. Of your nervous tic or your earrings or whatever it might be.

I feel like the beginning of it or the access is the self awareness. Yes. And I don't think we necessarily want to see ourselves the way other people see us.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, Right.

You hear a recording, you catch a photo of yourself. That's. That's not flattering the way that you'd like it to be. And you're like, oh my God, I don't really look like that. Or people give you honest feedback or you hear somebody talking about, you're like, oh, I'm really like that. If you could actually take that in and get how you are, it can make an enormous difference. Right. I look in the mirror, I still see like a guy in his 20s who's a DJ and you know, cool and rising business thing. And I skateboard and I surf and I do. I'm. I'm like really cool. People look at me in the mirror and they see a guy in his mid-50s who's got a little more weight on his frame, who's losing his hair.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And it looks like a boring mainstream white guy.

Yeah.

And I think that, like embracing that and knowing that, that you're how the world sees you and how you see yourself might not be the same thing is very powerful. Right?

Yeah. It's it's one of the most remarkable things that the clients comment on. They just can't believe the video and seeing themselves. But not only that, for the first time, maybe in a long time, they've seen themselves like this. But you're right, they do get more comfortable with it, more accepting of it, and then they begin to calm down and realize that they have a message and that's they're going to deliver that message in the best way there can. They can, but the change is dramatic once they embrace how they actually look or sound on radio or tv.

Yeah. And I think if you're right, if what you said there, like, if your attention is on your message and your audience, then you want to know yourself and how you're seen and come across to address that early and upfront, to manage and address that and then go to the service of the message in the audience, which is not at all about you. And we've moved beyond the you, right?

Yeah. Yeah. And I think if you go in with that mindset, that your nerves and your butterflies will not be there, or maybe they still are, but you override that by saying, hey, listen, I'm here for a reason. I'm here to serve. That happened to me not too long ago. Some very type A personality men came in from the financial industry. And I felt I was a kindergartner and these guys were super college grads. And it was just like I was extremely nervous. And I'd say something, they shake their head right away like they knew that already. I thought, oh, I'm outclassed, outschooled here. But then I realized that they were there for a reason. They paid me some good money. And once I realized that, and I also realized they were posturing, you know, because they're type A personalities, they wanted to prove that they were stronger, more powerful than I was. But once I realized that and once they realized I was there for to be helpful, everything changed. They became, I won't say my friend, but we had a communication back and forth and a respect that only came because we decided that we were important and we had to give our information across. And it is give and take. Yes.

Well, it's really good stuff. I think we've probably given people a load of things to think about. So to recap a little bit, the things I'm hearing. So always be on stage. You want to have a presence, and for that you're going to need to know what your key message points are and that kind of thing, and to be aware that at any moment you may be called to take the spotlight, to take the mic, to stand in front of the camera, or you may be accidentally captured in that way. So you always want to be aware of and managing that with the idea that this thing may be recorded and captured beyond this moment. And then if you know what you want, then you're prepared to step into it and to go to the core of your message, to bridge to our scaling up world, simple places to go, the why of your work, the purpose statement, the three brand promises, what the market can expect from you, the way that you operate, the how of the work, the five core values, these are all good things that you could use as an anchor when you're trying to create stuff. So knowing that and then what's the specific like call to action, the end, what, what do you want them to take away and do? And then if you know your audience and you know yourself, you can let go of who you are, move beyond that to your message and to what the audience actually correct. Did I recap it well?

Exactly. And be the servant that, that and serve your audience there. And that's another thing we didn't touch on. But it's pretty obvious it's not about you as the speaker or the presenter or even the leader. It's about others. What's in it for them, what are they going to get out of it? When I, Ted Turner was the founder of CNN and he was one of my mentors, a lot of people looked up to him. He just had that executive presence about him. He didn't speak well, he had that strong southern accent and draw. But he was somebody that just had that executive presence and wanted to know how we felt about something. He asked us, he would ask everybody different opinions and then he would take that information and then act decisively on it. But he made us feel very important and that's what the executive presence is all about. People want to be magnetically attracted to people like that and you can do that as your, your business leader in your own market niche.

So if you want to know more about Steve's work, read about him, see what's involved in their training, go to mediatrainingnetwork.com mediatrainingnetwork.com we'll put that in the show notes as well. So you got an easy link, you can click on a copy. Of course. We bring somebody groovy like this every week to you to help you develop your leadership and scale your business successfully using all of the ideas and things in the scaling up framework and you'll find all that@scalingcoach.com so medianetwork.com, scalingcoach.com every week something new. All the back catalog of this you should find there along the tools, the downloads, the links, that kind of thing. I'll even give you a copy of Scaling up for free if you just pay the shipping and handling. So find all that@scalingcoach.com thanks again Steve for joining us this week and we'll talk to everyone again next week. Once again, thanks to Vern Harnish for starting it all, for creating the original Rockefeller Habits from the Life and lessons of John D. Rockefeller and then morphing those into the living Best of Growth framework Scaling up that we know and love today. This show was produced by Lucy Summers. The audio production was done by Podfly Productions and audio edited by Albert Burge. Our shownotes are compiled by Ein Codina and proofread by Tim McGowan. If you love it, please go give us a good review over at itunes or wherever you get your podcast from and then pass it along to somebody else so that we can share the love and grow the show. You can subscribe to get the show in your feeds every week because we've got a new episode for you and loads of stuff there on anything that you could imagine around the world of leadership and Scaling Up. If you want to give us a little feedback or if we can help connect you to something thing, drop us a line to info scalingcoach.com again info scalingcoach.com is the email to use. Thanks again for listening. Keep Scaling Up.

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