213: Tom Peters — People Help Unlock Your Business to New Heights

Are you thinking about how to grow your business with near and offshore staffing, but you're also wanting to make sure that it's reliable, cost effective and really well done. I think docsa talent is the way to go. Here's why. They don't just fill your jobs. They bring integrity, top talent and a people first approach that's hard to find. I've known the people at Doxa talent for over 20 years now and I say that you can count on them. I have. Talk to docs of talent and you won't be disappointed. Go to docsatant.com Bill G Again, that's doxatallent.com Bill G. One more time. Doxatallent.com bill G. Check it out today. Well, people are often a challenge for business leaders and for the last few years it's been really hard to find enough of the right kind of people. And now lately, folks are getting laid off or you're worrying about laying them off or how to pay them and your people are worried and stressed and I mean there's all kinds of things dealing with people. People are not easy, predictable or rational. And yet people are amazing and people are beautiful and people achieve all kinds of amazing things together. So our guest today and our topic is all about people. We're talking with the amazing and legendary Tom Peters about how we get back to a conversation about excellence by embracing and getting the best out of people. Why people matter more now than ever. One of the people that can make a difference in you and for all of us right now is a coach. I'm a coach. I love working with folks, helping them achieve more and accomplish and fulfill their vision for a better world. We've got 200 coaches in our world and we've never been easier to work with. More flexible, more options at every budget level to help you solve your business problems. If we can help you drop us a line, get in touch with us, send an email to info scalingcoach.com infocalingcoach.com we'll help you find the right coach, the right situation to help you deal with yours at whatever budget, whatever situation that you've got. We've got lots of options there. All right, listen in now as we talk with Tom Peters about why people are important and how people can help you get through this time and into the next amazing period, period of your business. So where are you today?

I am in technical answer is south Dartmouth, Massachusetts. Yeah, the non technical version is 68 miles south of Boston. And if you know your history, I am 13 miles from New Bedford, which was the whaling capital of the United States and per capita the wealthiest city in the United States, when before oil, whale oil was the principal fuel for lights and lanterns and so on. So that's more of an answer than you wanted.

But a whole picture of things. Right. And I'm outside of San Francisco in the Oakland Hills in the East Bay Bay area, working from my home office studio, of course. We're joined by Tom Peters. If you haven't recognized and figured that out, I want to tell everyone hello and welcome again to the Scaling Up Business podcast. I'm your host and scaling coach Bill Gallagher. We're joined by Tom Peters, co author of In Search of Excellence and just an all around guru on everything to do with business and what's, you know, next to your mom. Tom Peters has the advice for what would fix you in your life. So.

That'S a great introduction. I'm looking around my room to see who the person is who can respond to something like that.

Yeah. So Tom, Tom's office sent me a note last week, said Tom's got a message for people in this times and like to come back on your show. We've had Tom on before. It was a fantastic and well listened to show and share with folks some thoughts on what helps us navigate this time, what matters, what kind of leadership actually makes a difference in this time. So I'm really glad to get you back on the show.

No, I am delighted to be here. I mean, I'm trying to, I don't think I have a special message. I think I have the same message I've always had, but it actually seems to fit the times pretty well. I've spent basically 43 years saying people first. And some people listen and do something about it and others say I'd love to do it, but right now I'm buried in my, my head is buried in my spreadsheet and you know, I, a few miles away from you at Stanford, where I graduated with a business degree, I, after my first book took off, I was invited back to give a lecture at the business school and the dean refused to introduce me because I had been so brutal in my attacks on MBAs. And my MBA attacks were saying there's more to life than your course in finance. Yeah, I mean, here's the good news. Yeah, God allows you to get even sometimes. So the dean wouldn't introduce me. When was the next time I saw the dean on CNN testifying to Congress about why he had been the chairman of the audit committee at Enron and hadn't seen anything wrong. Now, I don't ever wish anybody ill, but I at least have to admit that I smiled a teeny bit.

Yeah. Smirked at the pain of that. You know, it's funny, we talk about, I talk about Enron all the time, especially in the early stages of the client, when we talk about core values and what it means to have meaningful, rich, descriptive core values that actually speak to the way that you operate at your best and not generic BS crap that people throw out. Like one of their published core values was integrity. And if you get on the Internet Wayback Machine, you can go look at the end at the Enron website and they've got all the typical like communication, teamwork value nonsense core values. And one of them is integrity. And I'm like, you know, most people's definition of integrity wouldn't bear any resemblance to what happened every day unless you take that definition right. Of whole and complete.

My cynical comment is that those core value statements are written at off sites by executives who have had far too much booze and they sit in a room and create a core value statement and then foist the Damn thing on 10,000 innocent employees when they come back to work. Yeah, and obviously that's sarcasm, but it's exactly what you said.

It is really true.

Well, here's a. You know, I hate to do this, but unfortunately it fits too well. Yeah. On Medium yesterday, there was a story saying wonderful things about Brian. Is his first name Chesky the Airbnb guy?

Yes.

Yeah. Anyway, it said Brian had handled 25% layoffs and it went through all these wonderful words he had said. And then on about paragraph 23, it said, well, he'd done all this being nice, but he hadn't done anything like reduce his own pay or what have you. And so I'm reading the article and I move my finger a little bit and I tap Google and I see Cesky has a net worth of $4.1 billion. And I tweeted about it and I said, you know, the article isn't worth a pile of crap. You go through, oh, you can speak in a charming manner, but let's see the sacrifice. And I really, I mean, it's all about what you said. And it always, I mean, the wonderful news is I speak as a 77 year old and when you're 77 year old, unless you're totally arrogant, even forgetting COVID 19, you don't think you're gonna live forever. And I said to somebody, my measurement in life is Can I walk past a mirror without barfing?

And.

Here'S the best thing I've ever read on this. And the good news is it's basically one sentence long. The New York Times columnist David Brooks wrote a column about a year ago or so, and it contrasts what he calls resume virtues versus eulogy virtues. And it says the resume virtue is you went to Stanford, you had a 4.7 grade point average, you became the youngest vice president at Google, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But. And as Brooks says, the obvious, that's not what they talk about in eulogies. They say, how did he treat people? What kind of a person was he, relative to your Enron point? Did he behave with integrity even when nobody was watching? And so on? I think it's just a wonderful contrast. And the reason I've been trying to do some of this stuff during the pandemic is I really think that a large number of people, or let's talk about business leaders, which is more my bailiwick. Their effectiveness is as a human being to a significant extent, will be evaluated on the basis of what they're doing right now. How did they behave in the midst of a once every 100 years. Perhaps, you know, they tie it back to the 1918 flu. But I mean, this is the ball game. What you do in the last two months and the next two months is. I mean, we are. And this is true all leaders, you are living through judgment day. You know, your thoughtfulness, your caring. There was. There's a. There's a community college up in Oregon, and I wish I had the darn piece of paper in my hand, which sent out to its whole staff, kind of the rules for COVID 19. And it said things like, hey, we really don't expect your productivity to necessarily be worth a damn. You know, hey, role number one is to take care of your family, take care of your kids, and we'll. But it was like eight rules, and they were all about human decency. Yeah. And of course, the thing I always say is, guess what? It's the positive catch 22. If I do treat you that way, frankly, the odds of having high productivity go through the roof.

Yeah, I think that makes a big. A big difference in that. And I think this thinking about, look, you may not have created your life's purpose, but if you want a shorthand to it and you want to think about your purpose and your values as a human being, let alone the company one, think about what you want said at your eulogy. Imagine at your Memorial service, who's there? Who matters to you, and what do you want them to say about you? This is the single most powerful. And if you find that too macabre, just imagine maybe your retirement party or something like that. But when I think about that. And that really changed how I thought of myself, because before I entertained that question in my life, I thought, well, I'm a kind of a smart guy, and I'm articulate, and that's who I am. I'm a business guy who's smart and articulate and. And I really, like, had a tremendous amount of identity wrapped around those things. And every time I had a setback where I felt foolish or I said something stupid, my whole identity was in crisis. But when I thought about that, I thought about. I wanted the people that I'd worked with, and I wanted my family, and I wanted them to gather around, and I wanted them to say, there was a guy who was generous, who made a contribution to everyone he touched.

Yeah.

And suddenly it was clear, the purpose of my life is making a difference.

How old were you?

I was probably 38.

Yeah. I mean, there was no catch. I just wondered out of sheer. Yeah, that's probably a pretty good time.

I was about 38. I was in a kind of a challenge of life. We had three businesses. They were all failing. My marriage was struggling. I felt trapped with the two kids that I'd always wanted to have in the perfect house, the perfect little family, everything I'd wished. And I was miserable, and I had to stop and reconsider. Who am I, and what is my life about? And it was in that time that I saw the point of my life is making a difference, is being a contribution. And as I took that on, it began to shift. Now, that would be something not always, but more often now that I would hear people say about me. But that isn't how I lived up until then. And then I began to see my business differently from that place. Right. And you're right, you think about that. You said, this is the defining hour, and this may very well be. But I. Just before our lockdown hit, I had been around seven countries and spoken at conferences and that kind of thing. And then, you know, it began to get kind of Spooky. I did two things in the Bay Area on March, like 10 and 11 or something like that, and I was nervous already about going that. And then on the 16th or 17th, we had our shelter orders, and we knew it was coming the day before. And I went to bed thinking, God, I wonder if I'll have a business or income if I'll have to live off my retirement early. I wonder what this means to me. But I woke up at three in the morning thinking, this is my time. People need a coach now. I don't have to be brilliant. I don't have to be perfect. I just have to be willing to serve, to contribute, to be a contribution to people. And I woke up with that thought, and I just was energized. And I immediately started broadcasting out. If you need free coaching, I'm your man. Now, I'm a guy who generally makes 1,000 bucks an hour, which is not to brag, but I was now willing to give it away for free. And I did countless hours for free for people who were in total crisis. And my exposure grew the following. The listenership grew over the next few weeks as a result of that place, that stand, that look I'm going to be whether I have business or not. I know my purpose.

Yeah, well, mine was not as profound as yours, but directionally. So I really cut back my speaking and so I don't do that much of it. But for me, the magic moment, in a way, was my wife, who initially was a tapestry artist and is good with her hands, started making masks. And I kind of looked in the mirror and I thought, well, what the hell are you doing? And I said to my colleague Shelley, you know, we were on a ton of podcasts when my latest book, or my last book came out in 2018, and so on and so forth. I said, I don't think I'm a genius, but I think I kind of worry about the right stuff. And as we did with you, let's find everybody in the world we know and tell them that I'm available to engage in a conversation like this. And it is what I have done with my life. And so I really want to do it. And, you know, I'm older than I was and I can. Well, we schedule no more than three a week. But I said to Shelly, I did something last week, I'm not sure what, And I said to her afterwards, holy smokes. I'm in my little office and I'm in front of only an iPad with a single person's image. But at the end of 45 minutes, I'm exactly as exhausted as if I had given a speech to a thousand people. Because what you're trying to do is you're trying to. You're trying, maybe even more, you're trying to push give a shitism through the screen of an iPad. You know, and I've just had a. I've had a wonderful time and not unlike you, I thought, wow, this is the most selfish thing I've done in the world. Maybe it's even helpful because it's just good to do. And particularly, which has always been one of my views in life, it's really good to tell people you don't know what the hell you're doing, but you're gonna make it through the day somehow or other. A little bit like your epiphany, because I really, I always feel this way. But people who know exactly where they are and exactly where they're heading. I had a. I lived in Vermont for quite a while. I had a power boat on Lake Champlain. And it was funny, I'd never had a boat like that before. I'd seen the rich people in our community with them. And I woke up one day and thought, my God, got a smile. I could actually one of these things. And so I bought a powerboat. And then the big question is, what do you name it? And I came across the name of the boat was subsequently the Cromwell. And I came across a quote from Oliver Cromwell. And the quote was, no one rises. You have to listen carefully. No one rises so high as he who knows not where he is going. And you know, it's not that you got a plan for what you're going to do at the age of seven and then dry. And we've done this thing. I wanted it to be the title of the last book, but the publisher wouldn't buy it. You know, I've talked about the excellence thing since my first book back in 82. But my, my one liner today, and it's so consistent with what we're talking about. My one liner today is excellence is not an aspiration. Excellence is not a hill to climb. Excellence is the next five minutes. Excellence is how I behave back when we weren't all doing wfh. Excellence is how you behave in a three minute conversation in the hallway after you walk out of a meeting. And excellence. I actually checked this friend of mine who was a reasonably prominent psychiatrist and I said to him, I said, steve, I've got this theory, and I've got this theory of if one of the people you were coaching or I was coaching, I said if they would give me a random selection of 10, 10 line emails, I could do a complete psychiatric diagnosis of that human being in a way that would pass muster with the American Psychiatric Association. You know, every five line. Let me tell you the teeniest story in the world. Okay. There was an issue and an issue and an issue which neither you nor I is interested in. And I ended up to help my wife and I keep our finances together with an accounting firm in Boston. And when I would get an email from them, and they're lovely people and I really like them, but I get an email from them about the most trivial fact. And it would always start out, hi, Tom, comma body of text. Have a good day, Jack. And I thought to myself, because my mother was southern and she taught manners, I mean, that was the only damn thing she taught, basically. I'm quite sure she loved me, but I thought, God, I'm one of those people with a message or with an email. I said, jack, now what's going on with that last? There's no, there's no humanity to it. And there's nothing more trivial than hi, Mary. And there's nothing more trivial than thanks comma Tom. But it ain't trivial. It's just a little five second touch where I gave a shit enough to not just jump into the you're behind on your deadline and be a human being. And I know, I know. How true. Well, the toughest thing in writing a book for me is figuring out an epigraph. Oh my God, now I'm gonna forget it because I'm too old. Oh, my lord, this is gonna be awful. I may even get up and go get it. I'm going to leave the camera for 30 seconds.

So listeners. Tom, if you're listening and not watching this, Tom's wandered off. He's on camera looking for something because he wants to share it with us and get it right. And it's compelling and relevant to the conversation at hand. So I'll just keep filling as he.

Oh, no, it may be relevant, but I couldn't find it.

Okay.

It is what I used as the epigraph for my last book. And it is from the American statesman Henry Clay. And it basically says it is the tiniest courtesies which stick in your mind the longest. It's the little stuff, it's the tiny stuff, it's the little going out of your way to give somebody a hand when you're busy as hell, but they're just about to miss a deadline and maybe saying hi at the beginning of an email.

And courtesies of a small and trivial character are the ones which strike deepest in the grateful and appreciating heart.

Oh, God bless you. God bless Google. You know, May Sergi and Larry live in our minds forever. That's the one. But I love that and I particularly love it because everybody's talking about disruptions and turn your business upside down and break everything and start over.

Well, let me reflect on a couple of things I hear in that that I think then to map it back. So I'm well known for terse, factual emails and text messages. Right. It is not in my nature to manage and nurture relationships. And although they don't know it, most of my friends, I would welcome their call at three in the morning if they were in an emergency. And I would move heaven and earth and give them everything I had to help them if I, you know, if I thought it would help. But I don't write in a flowery way. Now my wife, on the other hand, will spend an hour drafting an email or and half an hour writing a text message and I'm like, oh my God, just hit send.

Yeah.

And I had a client call me just yesterday and. And who's agonizing over an email message and I'm like, just send the thing out. It doesn't matter that much. It's actually about the conversation that'll follow after it and with it and the call that you make to them that's going to make the difference. And the email may grab their attention and strike something. But I would stop worrying about. And he said, you're right, I think I'm too much of a perfectionist. And I think that you're speaking. What I hear about is excellence is the way, not the destination.

Absolutely.

Yeah. And that notion, part of the reason.

That'S the case is because of the Cromwell. No one rises so high as he who knows not where he's going. I've never had a plan I don't believe. You know, here, here, here's. Here's another one of my favorite quotes that I can remember. And it was from the general who commanded U.S. troops at D Day, General Omar Bradley. And the quote was, amateurs talk about strategy, professionals talk about logistics. You know, I don't care how sexy the plan is for getting from the English Channel to Berlin. What I care about is that there be bullets from the guns for the guns that arrive at the right place at the right time. And so, you know, I've never believed in. If I was able to strike the word vision from the English language, I would. I was. When I was at McKinsey Company in the 70s and strategy was their thing and they came up with vision and we will help companies with visions. And I said, well, I really appreciate that the definition of a vision is a strategy study marked up by 30% call division study and I can charge you an extra few thousand bucks. But it's too I believe. Well, there's a. I have note. I was taught French in high school but there's a Napoleonic phrase that I also like that just basically says just jump in and then figure out where the hell you're going to. And I really believe that. It was like there's a quote that I used in the last book from a guy whose name I don't remember and he's somebody that you wouldn't know and I don't know and so on. But he said, you want to be a writer? Start writing. Start writing. Don't worry about whether it's good, bad or indifferent. Just get on with it. Start a blog. So it's a shitty blog, doesn't matter. It'll get better over time. But it's just get on with the program. Which doesn't take us back to the terse emails which I think we should play with more well.

So I hired somebody who had better relationship management skills and better manners and stuff than I do to compliment me and I empower her to help me and to do the kinds of things that the same thing true in my relationship. I know that my wife will take an hour to leave a party. I'll walk to the door, I'll say goodbye to the person I'm talking to at the moment, I'll walk to the door, I'll look back in the room, I'll wave and I'll walk out. Right? That's the.

I love that because we're a total reverse in our family. My wife can do will do exactly what you do to perfection. And she's always furious at me because even if it's our cocktail party in the course of an hour and a half, I only talk to two people. It's, you know, I find you in the. In the corner.

I'm engrossed in the whole thing.

Listen, there's a practical point for people who are listening to us that is marginally related in a way, but it's so darned important. I have an absolute, you know, I've read a lot of wonderful books by a lot of wonderful people and endorsed a lot of books that I really thought the world of. But for the first 20 years of this century, I have a favorite business book and it has a one word title and it was written by a woman by the name of Susan Cain and the title of the book is Quiet Q U. I E T. And basically the whole point of the book, which is related to what we're talking about, but not entirely, is she said, you know, you idiots, you've been giving up on half of the population because you don't focus on introverts. You know, you're having an interview with an introvert, and the introvert, you ask quite complicated question, and the introvert sits there like a stiff for 45 seconds and you say, where the hell did I get this low IQ guy? Well, guess what? The introvert is actually thinking before he opens his mouth, as opposed to Tom Peters, who has a pat answer for every damn thing, doesn't even listen to the question, and gives you the answer that's on his mind. But you know, it's horrible stuff because she, she goes through a ton of research. We think introverts are smarter. We think introverts are more creative. We think intro. Sorry, whoa. We think extroverts are smarter. We think extroverts are more creative. We think extroverts are more physically attractive. And Internet introverts get the short end of the stick. And, you know, the studies show that introverts are actually better leaders than extroverts because they occasionally listen to the people who work for them. And it's a wonderful book. She's now involved in something she started called the Quiet Revolution. But I read the book and I was speaking to the top management of a three or four billion dollars electronics components company, and I had the top management and together. And I'm pretty comfortable with body language and so on. And I said, well, I read a book, and so I'm more than willing to declare that all you guys in this room are idiots. And then I went from there. I said, you know, we've all been paying it. We've missed half the population. But at any rate, that's marginally connected to what you and I are talking about.

Well, going back to people mattering, there's an awful lot of folks thinking about their operations, their line of business, their cash position, and I'm thinking about that with them. But I also remember that in two occasions, the last two significant downturns, and I've lived through four or five now, but in 2001 aftermath and in 2009, in neither case did I have any clear idea of how to get out of the effed mess we were in. I did not know what to do or how to approach it. I could not see the end of it. And I've always been a smart guy and more strategic than most and especially early in my career, I thought that it was my job to come up with the answers. But in both of these cases, I didn't have the answer. I didn't know what to do. And it wasn't until I engaged my people that we together, no one of us, but all of us collectively figured out a thing, thousand little things to do that got us not only through the crisis, but through extraordinary growth while others were still suffering. And it was leading people and engaging people that made sense. Right?

Yeah. And you got to respond to this because you're talking about who you are from a personality standpoint and so on. And you may or may not agree with this. The big breakthrough in, and this is directly related to what you just said, the big breakthrough when we were doing the research for In Search of Excellence was the day that we went down. I was in San Francisco, office of McKinsey, and we drove 30 miles south to Palo Alto and we talked to the president of Hewlett Packard, which was then a modest size company and hadn't screwed the things up the way they have in the last few years. But that's a, you know, that's a very different story. And so he told us about the HP Way, which, unlike our prior conversation, really meant something. And the heart of the matter was something they called MBWA or managing by wandering around.

Yes.

And that was a breakthrough. And because MBWA meant to me, which is exactly what I think you just said, it meant being in contact, being in touch. And then I had, and here's where we may or may not part company. Then my wife and I spend typically, not this year, two months each North American winter in New Zealand. And I mean, this is a pathetic story because at the time I was 76 and I've had a reasonable degree of success. And we live on the most gorgeous beach in the world. Why in the world, at age 76, would you be walking on a beach in New Zealand still thinking about nbwa? I mean, that's pathetic. But I was, and I had at age 76, an epiphany. And the epiphany was this. And you will react. I know, I can tell that for a brief conversation. And we can go from there. I said, why do you do mbwa? Do you do it to learn about what's going on at the front line? Yes. Do you do it for this, that and the other? And then I smiled at myself and I said, no, that is all wrong. You do MBWA for one reason, and that's because it's Fun. And if you don't get a kick out of being with the distribution center gang at 1:30am in the morning, talking about them and their families and what's going on in the systems that we're trying to introduce, if you don't get a kick out of that. And my smart aleck comment was, if you don't get a kick out of that, go straight home or straight back to work, Sit down at your desk, grab a piece of paper, grab a pen. Some people know what that word means and some don't write a short letter that says, I resign. I promise I'll never be a manager again for the rest of my life. And you know, I mean, this sounds like it couldn't be true and it is. When John Young, the HP president, was taking my co author of Research of Excellence, Bob Witter and I around during that first visit to HP, there was some 28 or 29 year old engineer sitting at what then, which was 77, was a pretty darn big computer terminal. And there was this old fart talking to him. And Bob and I are talking to Mr. Young and he said, look, I want you guys to meet somebody. This obviously wasn't planned, so I want you to meet somebody. We said, that's cool. He said, who is it? He said, see an engineer over there. The guy who's talking to him is Bill Hewlett. And it was like, oh shit. But you know, here is 65 year old or 70 year old or 58 year old bill Hewlett and he is having an intimate professional conversation with a 26 year old engineer and they're just talking about stuff. And as I said to somebody from there, it was all easy and downhill because you smelled what it was like to be in the situation you were talking about where you didn't know what the heck you were doing particularly. And you and the gang chatted and talked and laughed upon occasion and laughed at yourself upon occasion and tried some different things. But it's the essence of humanity.

I think this raises a really good point that we're not talking about enough right now. And that is how do you do NBWA when so many people are working from home? And I don't think there's an easy pat answer for that, but I think it's critical that you do MBWA management by walking around now, even when you're not actually walking around. Absolutely. So that's going to mean calling people, that's going to mean getting on a zoom or whatever it is with people and maybe calling is the better approach right now? I don't know. You have to experiment with that. But you've got to be able to drop in on people in a safe, appropriate way and. And say, how's it going? How are you dealing? And not just how they're doing with the project on the next release of your app or whatever it is, but how are, like, you doing? Are the kids driving you crazy? Are you ready to kill your spouse? Do you have enough toilet paper? Like, you know what is going on? And actually be interested in how that human being is dealing with life and whatever their reality is. Right. Which. And it's different everywhere. Yeah.

I mean, you said, what's my answer? And my answer is very simple, and that is to replay the tape with what you just said in the last 45 seconds, because I think you nailed it. It is to be able to personalize it, and I think a lot of it, too, because on Zoom, you and I have. It's not the same as being together in the same room, but there's a lot of body language, there's eye contact, there's this, that, and the other. And I think everything, including your demeanor, is really key. You know, you've got exactly what you said. You've got three people on their team, on your team, or five people or whatever the hell it is, and they've got kids at home, and everything is a mess. And you're the boss. And it's not that you have a suit and tie on. You can have a Mark Zuckerberg T shirt on if you want. But you get on the Zoom thing and you say, okay, we've got a long list on the agenda today. Let's get going.

Right.

I mean, that sucks.

Yeah.

And. And I bet you it happens. I actually bet you it happens more often than it doesn't. But I agree with you that the phone is better. And I agree. And I. And I think you can do this in a, you know, in a. In a zoom situation.

And, well, the zoom creates a certain pressure. Right. Which maybe is fine, but there is like. Well, because we were recording, right. I thought about what shirt? So I didn't wear a T shirt today. I wore a shirt with a collar.

Right.

And I'm sure you had guidance to pick a great sweater that, in the, you know, the background looks great.

I've got my zoom sweater on. I hang it in the corner of my office.

Yeah.

Put my plain black sweater on over my shitty little T shirt that you can't see.

Looks good on camera. And then you go back, you know, you're probably wearing the same sweatpants. Like my wife said, you know, I'm washing five shirts or folding, I do the wash, she does the folding. I'm washing, I'm folding five shirts to every pants you wear. And I'm like, oh, that's about right.

Well, I wish, I wish you had not said that. One reason that I'm going to try to extend this conversation late into the day is because I washed the sheets this morning and I have to put a duvet back into a duvet cover. And that to me is much harder than inventing the iPad or the iPhone or the Macintosh. And I'm just sitting here shaking and quaking with my body parts that you can't see.

But, but wait, I got something fun for you. Go, go find the YouTube on putting a duvet cover on hack by rolling it up. There's a, you like, put it on, you lay it on and you roll it up and then you flip it, you unroll it and it's on.

Yeah, I, I, I, I may, well, I may well do that instead of just shaking in terror. But, but now let's talk about that though. Assuming you're not a total stiff and you don't have a reputation as a stiff, you could actually, if you had the right demeanor, you could start a meeting by saying, any of you guys or any of you women know how to stuff a duvet into a duvet cover?

Yes.

There would be a six minute conversation. Everybody would be in hysterics. Yeah, I actually, when I went through this about two weeks ago, did a Twitter exchange with somebody and I said, now you know that you have a very best friend in the world who thinks the most significant thing in life is stuffing a duvet into a duvet cover. And you know, that even started off a little Twitter thing. And you know, I use Twitter a lot and there were 50 people talking about stuffing duvets. But, and I think that's, I think that's very doable. And I think also the obvious is you'll get better with it at times over time. I mean, you know my one liner, when somebody says you're a pretty good speaker, you know, how do you get to be a good speaker? And my response is always the same. And it really isn't. Smart Alec is, I always say, you wouldn't believe how much better a speaker you are after 3,000 speeches than you were after the second one. And other than that, I can't tell you a damn thing. And it's pretty much True trial and.

Error, practice feedback, trial and error and all the things.

It's funny and I don't know it's related or not. I have a good friend and his daughter in law to be. Does stand up routines somewhat comedy routines at the level that she's in Hollywood and all that stuff. And she and I were talking about it and I said, you know, it was, when I look back, it was so fascinating to learn stand up because I would be telling a little story to a group of 500 people and it was absolutely the most fascinating story in the world as far as I was concerned. And I wouldn't get any reaction. And then two days later I would tell the same story and like a Jerry Seinfeld clone would take a pause for 10 seconds in the middle of a story to give people time to approach it and suddenly the audience would all be in hysterics. And I said, I said it wasn't that I was studying, but I was de facto studying and I was really learning about reading body language and how slowing down a little bit not. Let's get to the bottom line on this. The minute you walk in made all the difference in the world.

Yes. Really?

Okay.

We're covering a lot of things, but I think that the first thing that I heard in this little segment is the need to bring in some humanity, Right. And that could be as simple as asking how people are dealing or talking about a common thing like stuffing a duvet or. I was leading a workshop with a group in Long island last week and we just asked everybody on the break to go grab something that was really special and meaningful, an object like you would have done in grade school, your show and tell moment and then come back and tell the story, right? So everybody ran around their house, they grabbed something and they. And it revealed something about them, Right. Our meetings open with a one word open and people name their present state. They say, I'm nervous, I'm excited, I'm good to go. Like, they'll, they'll say whatever as a one word open. And that not only it gives you a temperature check, it also lets them name the, it also lets them transition into the room. So there's that whole range of that kind of thing that begins.

My only comeback.

Yeah.

To what you said, which I buy 100% is relative to you who's leading this show. It's got to be done with the right facial expression. It's got to be clear that you really want, you really want to hear about this rock that they found somewhere in The Amazon. Is it a drill that you learned in a book or do you know?

Yes, yes, yes.

It was like, I think it's related, or I don't know whether it's related, but it's related to something useful. I had a friend who ran an NGO that did a lot of work in Africa and most of it was engineering work. And he needed really good people and so on. And remember he said to me once, we were just shooting the crap about something, and he said, I never hire anybody who doesn't have some fabulous hobby that they're in love with. He said, I want somebody who's got some thing that really fascinates the hell out of them. And it could be knitting sweaters, or it could be collecting 18th century stamps, or it could be fly fishing west of the Rockies or what have you. But something else they're passionate about that just suggests a certain breadth. And he said, and the other thing, which is what you just said, he said, you get them talking about that thing and you can't shut them up, but that's a good thing, not a, not a bad thing, right?

Yeah. Opening up, connecting, that kind of thing. Because the people that we connect with, we collaborate with, the quality of work is better. We spur each other onto different ideas.

Well, if we weren't in WFH and I actually cut it out of a manuscript that edited it out of a manuscript I was working on. I've always said that there is only one thing that is better than a $75 million investment in ERP software, and that is lunch. Because one of the reasons you want that software is to get the finance people and the purchasing people and the HR people all integrated. And I said, the way you do that is lunch, you know, and I call it the 220 at bats routine. We have about 220 work days in the course of a year, which is 220 opportunities to go meet somebody new. But I said, here's the way it works. This is what you and I have said. You know, everybody in your department thinks everybody in the finances, finance department is a bunch of green eye shaped people who have no, you know, no sense of humor, etc. And I go and invite Mary, who's in finance, on some pretext, let's have lunch in the cafeteria or next door at the deli. And I said, let me tell you statistically what happens. You sit down with Mary at lunch and within 15 minutes you discover that both of you have an 8th grader with the same teacher in the same school. 10 miles away and your life is different together. I said, listen, you are still a hard nose finance pro. She is still a hard nose purchasing pro. Once we get in this mode of how's Dorothy doing, how's Sam doing, or what have you, everything changes. And that is the way you break down silos. Not with investing 80 jillion dollars in Larry Ellison's, you know, last, last dream.

Right? Yeah. You know, I used to have this notion that there were certain kinds of people that were for me and then there were other kinds of people that were not. And. And along the way, I would discover people that irritated me, upset me, whatever, and they'd be like, oh, yeah, you're one of those. And then I would try to figure out, what is it about those people. And at some point, one of my mentors said to me, you know, you could let go of that if you want to. You could become someone for whom no one is unreachable, for whom no one is not the right kind of person. You could become the sort of person that, like, you could connect with anyone. And I thought, wow, that's really interesting because at this moment I was talking about somebody who was pissing me off, who was very reminiscent of people who'd pissed me off my whole life and a certain type. Right. And I think a lot of us have that. And I. So I took it on and I'm like, okay, I'm going to become a person who can connect and relate to and appreciate anyone. And I spent months working on that until I was fearless about reaching out to people whose blank reaction was off. And I have become. On the other hand, I have also learned there are some people who take more energy than others for me, some people who are more of it, who are easier, and some people. But there's nobody who's like, I can't just deal with that person. But I used to really live like that. And the key really is curiosity. Right. Stop worrying about yourself and actually get curious and interested about what's going on. Which goes back to something else you said earlier, which is you have to be willing to be quiet sometimes times and listen and think and notice things. Which doesn't mean filling every moment of silence with your thoughts.

Yeah, I mean, it's. I have argued in what I. My last book and what I'm writing now that listening excellence should be core value number one for an organization. There's a. There was a secretary of state in the U.S. his name, you may remember his name was Dean Rusk. And my Dean Rusk, one Liner that I love is he said, the best way to. And listen carefully. For all the people watching and listening to us, the best way to persuade someone is with your ears. And I really, you know, you can throw words like profound around, very easy, but that's profound. And you know, I've always heard people say this. The best salesmen, the best sales women are the ones who talk the least. You know, the one who just can't shut up about the 73 new attributes of Model 97Z. But it's, you know, just listening to what the person on the other side wants. And he said, you let them. They're the ones who sells the product, not you. And I do want to say one thing. I want to take, I want to take a slight detour which is or isn't. But I spent a lot of the last 24 years, dating back to 1996 on the issue of getting more women into leadership positions which I am so passionate about. I can't see straight. But let me tell you what started that and it was really kind of funny. There were these seminars we used to give and I was talking to a guy who was one of the attendees and he was a very successful salesperson selling high end systems from AT&T. And that was the old AT&T when they were a leader and that kind of stuff. And so think about them however you want to. And he said, he said, I have a secret. I said, what's your secret? He said, I hire women. And I said, okay, next step. He said, listen, women are not so uptight about rank. A woman is willing to go into a customer's organization and go four levels down in the organization and talk with somebody. And he said, my guys say, I'm not going to talk to that guy because he's too junior. And women have an ability to make those kinds of relationships. And he said, where is the decision made to buy my system? It ain't made by the vice president. It is made by a 24 year old engineer three levels down who is going to be all the, doing all the real data grubbing and analysis and then it's going to hand the vice president a piece of paper with one of two words written on it, yes or no. And it's, it's, it's getting. Did you ever see the, did you ever see the movie Charlie Wilson's War?

Yes. Long time though.

Yeah, yeah. Anyway, there was this guy whose name was Gus something, it was a very long Greek name and he, he was a mid level person at the CIA. And I have used this sentence in my books and speeches and it said Gus's secret. And this was in the CIA, where he was not up on the seventh floor, where all the leaders were. He said Gus's secret was he was beloved in the mail room. And all the people who did the real work in the organization, he had helped them, he had done little things about him for him and so on. The other term I use, which is not a great term, some people are offended by it, but I don't really care. The secret to success is not sucking up, it's sucking down. It's how big is your network three levels down, as opposed to whether you can kiss ass with the vice president who's one level above you.

Making friends in low places, making friends in low places, paying attention to the person in reception, the gatekeepers, the influencers, they all talk about you. And if you're a jerk to everyone, you pass the conversation later is going to be in a thousand little ways. Well, that guy's an asshole or gal. Right. So learning how to be and connect with and be respectful of human beings. Beings.

Yeah. There's a guy who, Peter Miller is his name. And he runs a biotech firm that's called Optinos. And I found one of my favorite lines, I'm always looking for one liners in some story with him. And he said, we only hire nice people. And he said, I'm in a very sophisticated industry. And so you've got a degree from Stanford in some very obscure bioscience thing. He said, here's the dirty little secret. Actually, in the world there are a lot of people who have that degree. So don't hire the jerks. But his secret, and you triggered it with your receptionist remark. You're Peter Miller. You're the guy in charge. I come in to interview, I am so incredibly skilled technically that your hand is vibrating, getting ready to push the button that says hiring. And he said. So I finished my interview and he said, then what Mr. Peters, the applicant has to do is what we call run the gauntlet. And I've got to talk to 10 different people in the organization. And one of them is the receptionist and one of them is a junior person in finance. One of them indeed is rd. And he said, our secret is that every as much as I fell in love with Tom because of his obvious genius technically said, every single one of those 15 people has pure unmitigated veto authority. If they don't like you, if they think you're a jerk, you're Done. What he said was, he said words were a middle sized company, 100, 150 employees. And he said one bad apple can really make a mess of your culture. And you know, I think it's really true. But I was, I just, I love that and it made so much sense to me.

Well, we keep coming back to this thing. People really matter. Your relationships and connections. People are going to get out of this thing together. People need people and you can't be much of a leader if you don't develop some skills around people.

And then we take all that that we have been talking about and you multiply it 10x in the middle of a crisis like the one we're in the middle of now.

Well, I remember after Hurricane Sandy, I had mapped out all of our business partners, our customers on the eastern seaboard and I realized a lot of them were along the shore and were going to get hit. And so I called everyone I could. I didn't call, I called everyone. And I don't remember what the number was, but it was a lot. And I only spoke to a couple. But I left messages and sent emails to everyone else and I just said, we're thinking of you. We see that you are in the path and we want you to know we're here with you and we'll do anything that we can to help you deal and get back on your feet and that kind of thing. And I expected to have to do some very expensive things and I didn't. In the end, people asked for very little of me. But at the next major trade show, person after person came by and said some version of, you're the only one who called.

Thank you.

We won't forget it. Right, we're here, we're back. Thank you. Right. Just reaching out to them and letting them know we were there and thinking. Now some did ask for help. You know, they said we need new display fixtures and we need to restock and could you help us refurbish goods? And we did, you know, at expense, do everything we could for those people. We wanted to be known as people who would partner. Because I in turn asked for things for people. And there were some suppliers who told me to go to hell, that what I was asking for was greedy and unfair. And other people said, no, we'll get through this together. I had one guy who said, I'll give you 90 to 180 day terms and a $5 million line of credit. And I'm like, great, you just got everything I can give you. But it Wasn't just the details there. It was like, look, we will partner with this. We will figure this thing out together. And I love that. And other people are like, that's terrible. And you're rich in America and you should be able to find your own damn money and you can borrow and we can't. And I was like, like, okay, you know, I'll figure out how to do it. And we minimize that work there. But it's that place. And I remember my landlord was helpful in getting through that. And my. And I had a woman who I had to lay off, who then came she. She went out of her chair onto her knees, and she took my hands and she said, Mr. Bill, you're a good man, and I'll go get another job because I know about being poor and I know how to get through it. She said, if you need me to come in at night and work for free, I'll come work for you.

Yeah, that's. That's the kind of thing that's, again.

Stays with you for your whole life. And all of those things are what help you get through a crisis.

There was a. There was an. In the 2006 mess. There's an organization I work with, and they had to do a lot of layoffs, and there's a woman who is CEO. And I remember. It's just your story. I remember said somebody said the deal about Christine laying people off was that by the end of the conversation, the person she laid off was usually giving her a big hug and saying, it's okay, I'll make it through. You know, there are a lot of cynical people who, you know, just don't buy comments like that. But it's. It's exactly. It's exactly.

Have a heart. Right? Like, have some consideration for what you're asking of people and what you're willing to give to them. I think is that's the. We were reading stories today about tech companies that. That have a zoom call with 200 people, and then the next minute they're frozen out of all their accounts and they can't make any connection with. With anyone and their slacks dead and they're out in the cold and they're laid off with nothing. And like, where. I mean, there might be hard financial realities, but where's your humanity and compassion? And who, like, who would ever work for that CEO again? F you.

Well, and what people are saying, which I want to believe, and I'm, you know, a little bit old and a little bit cynical, unfortunately, is they. Some people have said this is going to be a real turning point, and behavior like that is going to be significantly closer to the norm than it is right now. And some of the reason is what you just said, because people have now watched people misbehave, and I really don't want to go back anywhere near that guy or that woman or whatever it happens to be right. And I think there's going to be some truth to it, particularly if it goes on more or less forever. I mean, one thing you were saying really rang a bell of when you're in the middle of a mess and working through it with people together, is we really don't have any data that is really worth a damn yet about this situation. There are tons. And it says nothing to do with, you know, do you hate Mr. Trump because of tests? It's just right. The data is conflicting.

Right.

It's like Mr. Fauci said yesterday, we have no idea how many people have died. We know what the number says technically, but. And so we are all groping. And the only way I think we can effectively grope is to put our arms around people. And, you know, and I mean metaphorically, obviously, particularly with wfh, but. Well, you said it earlier. You stagger your way to doing it a little bit better.

Look, you're gonna figure stuff. We have dealt with crises before. This is a real crisis. It's really affecting people. People are really afraid. There are real regulations, and it's not the same everywhere in the world. World. The impacts are not the same. The circumstances, the rules are not the same. Like, it's all different, but one way or another, it's affecting us all globally. And, you know, you can't build any significant or excellent business on your own. You're going to do it with people. And at the core of all of that is our interactions with people. And for sure, the most challenging thing in business is our human interactions.

Yeah. I said to somebody, and I'm not going to repeat the word obviously, but I said to somebody, I did about 20 podcasts when my last book came out, and I said, I really, mainly with people who I really thought were terrific. And I said, 18 of the 20 always said somewhere in the first three sentences, will you talk a lot about people? And I said the response I wanted to give was, what the F else is there to talk about?

Yeah.

And, you know, I feel that so deeply. Yeah.

Well, it's probably a good place to end it at the end of it, and all the fancy conversations about strategy and cash moves and things like that, and the practical things about how and where you work is just human beings trying to connect with other human beings and get through something together. And, and I think that's a core central message for leadership right now. Remember that. It's really people.

Absolutely.

And some of us are great at that. I'm pretty introverted. I'm a public introvert. Right. So some of us are extroverts, some of us are great with relationship. But whatever your personal tendencies and strengths and weaknesses are from wherever you come from, from, you gotta remember now Tom's message that it really is about people.

That matters more than ever given this conversation. It's both of our messages. We were probably boring as hell because we kept saying, yeah, that's right. No, I mean, it's really, you know, you know, when there are people who are on the same wavelength. And this has been a real pleasure.

It's a real pleasure. Thank you.

With any luck, we've been helping to a couple of people.

Thank you so much. We'll talk to you again soon.

Okay.

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