251: Warren Rustand — Tried and True Leadership Principles

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There it is once again. Somehow my own theme music doesn't get boring for me yet and it just makes me feel like, okay, I'm about to do one of my favorite things, which is talk to interesting people about them. Things that matter to me and to our listeners. Hey everyone. Welcome. So today's conversation is about how to become the person you want to be, the person you so desperately want to be and are capable of becoming. That's our conversation today. What are the tried, true, like really deeply proven, simple, hard of all things. And our special guest today is Warren Rustin who's deeply experienced not only in doing this himself, but in helping others through the process.

Foreign.

Hi again everyone. I'm Bill Gallagher, host of the Scaling Up Business podcast, your friendly neighborhood scaling coach. We do three episodes a week like this now and we live stream them while recording them and then we we bring them to you on iTunes, Podcast, Stitcher, YouTube, Spotify, SoundCloud, I don't know, wherever you go to get your regular content, we're probably there. If we're not, please let us know and we'll there. We've done hundreds and hundreds of episodes now like this on everything to do with scaling up people, strategy, execution, cash and what I like to call the fifth decision. What kind of leader are you going to become? And that's what we're talking about today, Warren Rustin, his new book, the Leader Within Us. If you want to find any of those back catalogs, the last couple times that Warren's been on the show and what we talked about there, all that and much more@scalingcoach.com or all those places where you get your material. Sip of my afternoon warm beverage. Warren, welcome to the show. So glad to have you back again and to have that voice and message with us. Let me Just say a little bit for our listeners who may not know. Warren, first time listeners, viewers, whatever who don't know that. So his background is truly extraordinary. From leading public and private companies from a few early stage, through billions of dollars in all manner of sectors, to serving the White House, to playing in the NBA. Not a small human being in terms of that, but also not only his personal accomplishments but his contribution to so many of us, mentoring us and helping us to develop our leadership, developing leadership academies and programs at both YPO and EO WPO around the world. So just a huge, huge background and so much to share and coming from a place of abundance and kindness. Also a father, grandfather, husband, community leader, like that kind of thing. Warren, welcome to the show.

And Bill, thank you very much. I'm glad to be here and I'm appreciative of all the great things you're doing for people by having this show and spreading the knowledge that's so important from people who have done really interesting things. So all of those lessons that we can learn from are really helpful and I enjoy listening and watching. So it's great.

Thanks so much. And you're in Tucson today?

I am in Tucson today. Nice and warm.

Oh, I'm so getting ready to travel again. I've had both my vaccinations now due to my work and I am like itching to go. First I'm going to go see my mom who lives near the Sundance resort in the state of Utah and then we're going to a little time in Hawaii. We're going to get to Arizona. So.

Well, when you're down this way, we'd love to see you. And it sounds like you're going fun places and I'm going to start my travel first week in April as well. I have had both the shots so we're ready to go. So we'll see what happens.

Awesome. Awesome. So we're talking today about this. You've been working a long time in leadership in so many ways. Why write this book? What is this all about? Talk to us a little bit about this work.

Well, it wasn't one of my life goals to write a book and I had not intended to write one, although I've been urged by friends over the last 20 years to put my ideas and thoughts and principles down. I just was so busy I didn't really take time to think about it. I gave a speech three or four years ago and there were some people from Forbes and Advantage Books in the audience and they approached me afterwards and indicated they thought that there were not just one book, but several books with the material that I covered that particular day. And I said, well, that's nice, and it's nice to hear, and thank you very much. And they were persistent. Over time, they convinced me that, yes, indeed, we ought to write the book. So I spent about 18 months writing it here and there, off and on because of my schedule, and finally produced a book about the principles that I have learned, starting with my father, all the way up through present time, that really, when applied, make a big difference in performance and make a big difference in the quality of one's life. And when I've looked at politicians and kings and queens and CEOs of corporations and people who aren't that as well, when I see successful people, I see the application of these various principles. They may call them something else, but it's the application of these very principles that makes them successful. So I thought it might be helpful to people. And if it is, that's great.

It is helpful, I'm sure. And the ideas of it are related to a book that I've been working on. And it's kind of funny, I think, because we know so many people who they, like, did one thing and they couldn't wait to write a book about it, the first thing. And you've done a whole lifetime of things that not everyone will do. And a book wasn't on that bucket list so far. But I'm glad that you finally distilled it and put it out on that form, because although I know that many of these stories, ideas, principles you've shared with others through the. The many places that you help to mentor and develop leaders, putting it in a book creates another reference and another way to connect and widen that audience and then impact. So I think it's really cool.

Well, thank you very much. I appreciate that. The book starts with the first great principle that I learned back on the farm in Minnesota where I grew up on an isolated farm, cold, gray. It was tough. The only boy. My father took me everywhere, obviously. And the first great principle in the book is clarity of vision, the ability to understand where we are going with clarity. That's very difficult, I think. And so I recall my father, when I was six, seven years old, we would go and look at a field, and it was time to harvest the field. And he would always stand at the edge of the field. I'd be standing next to him, and he'd always say something like, what do we want this to look like when we get done? What are we trying to do here. He always had a vision about each field that he opened, each field that he harvested or plowed or cut the hay. And I was always struck by that. And as I went further in life, I came to understand that he had a clear vision about what it is he wanted to do and what the outcome looked like. Right. Stephen Covey, start with the end in mind. And he always started with the end in mind. And that was very instructive to me as I was growing up. And I began to practice that as a young man, I wanted to be a basketball player. Nobody sees me, Bill, and says, boy, there's an NBA body. They don't even say there's an NBA mind with me. I mean, it's just one of those things, right. So. But I wanted to play basketball at the highest level. So taking my dad's advice, start with the end in mind or a clear vision, the clarity of vision I needed. I set my goal and then I work backwards from there to determine my intentionality about getting that goal, which is the second great principle of leadership. Right. It's certainty of intent. It's the notion that if we have a vision, we have to act on that every day. And so then I would set my intention. And as a result of that, I took whatever resources and talents I happen to have and I had to. I got to play basketball at a very high level. And that was a lot of fun for me. I enjoyed that. That was great. It was a great part of my life.

And yet you don't have any tattoos, piercings, or a Lamborghini?

Well, none that you can see. No, I don't have.

Not today's NBA player.

They're a little different today. Yeah, that's right.

Such humility. Oh, yeah. So I think it's really great. And you know, it's funny, I have a picture of my grandfather. Well, I have pictures both my grandfathers, but my grandfather, my mother's side, I have a picture of him in a farm, like with a rolled up coverall. It must be the summertime. Cause he's not overly bundled up. And there's kind of a dog. And it's very much a humble dirt farmhouse. And of course, he went on to be a leader in the FBI, to be sheriff, to serve as a leader in his church, to create a huge family, to do all of these things. And I'm like, wow. To go from that to that is really extraordinary. And what must that vision have been, to take yourself through that kind of path in life?

Well, it was interesting. My Father was a big influence, and unfortunately, he died at a relatively young age. And so I didn't have him as a coach or mentor for the balance of my life. But he taught me many important things. The first was that clarity of vision, the certainty of intent, as I mentioned to you, and that was really important. But he also taught me that he had a wonderful social gift, and that was the notion that wherever we would go, he would engage in conversations. I was a bit shy at the time. Just a farm kid, right? And I was a bit shy. And I said, dad, why do you talk to people all the time? What's the purpose of that? And he said, you know, everyone has a story and everyone has a voice, and we need to be good listeners. And that stayed with me a long time. I'm really interested in people's stories. They're uniquely different than my own. But mine is just one story, yours is another. Bill, there are thousands of great stories out there. We need to be good listeners of those stories, because I think there's learning in every story for us. And so I've learned over time to really be a good listener, I think, to other people telling their stories. And what it's given me is a richness to my life, which is really, really good. And that's been very powerful. The other thing he did is we would get on our old John Deere tractor and we'd head out and to plow the ground right, which we did on the farm. I'd be sitting on his lap. I was just a little kid. He would sing songs, he would quote poetry. He would talk about great books, he would talk about the theater. He would talk about things that were mind expanding. And I didn't appreciate it at the time, but as I got into my teens and early twenties, I really realized that he was preparing me for a life that was different than his own. He was saying, you can choose to stay on this farm, but there are a lot of great things going on out there in life, and you can go do those things as well. And I think that's a really interesting way of thinking about coaching and teaching as a parent. And we've tried to do that in our family. My wife's spectacular at it. And just the notion that we can plant seeds and be subtle, but continuously model the behavior that we would like others to follow. And in the end, they often do. And in this case, I certainly hope that my father's proud of what I've done in my life, and I've tried to emulate his humility his thoughtfulness, his learning and his vision for creating clarity.

It's interesting what you said there. I think it applies to your dad. I hear it there. But I am reminded of something General Stanley McChrystal said when he talked to one of our scaling up summits. He said a farmer doesn't grow anything at all. The seeds do all the growing. The seeds and the plants grow. The farmer creates the conditions for growth. And I think both as parents and leaders, we're creating the fertile soil, the territory, and nurturing and providing the support for the growth and the development of the people that either come from us or that lead. We start something and then it's theirs to grow.

Yeah, I think that's true. I think that's a great analogy. General McChrystal is someone that I had speak at our public policy conference that I chaired in Washington D.C. for 30 years and had an interesting perspective on leadership, something my dad did as he quoted poetry. There are a lot of things that I remember from that time, but there was a short poem that, it's called Think, and he quoted it often to me. And as a result of that, I think maybe I remember it goes something like this. I think I'd rather not think, for thinking is like a disease. I know I'd rather not know. For therefore stupidity comes with such ease and not so much stupid as content with the state going through the day knowing only that I ate. But the think means to live and to live means to do. But doing is what is done, but only by a few. Most people are talkers in life, not doers in life. My dad was a doer and he. His philosophy was you got to do. You got to go out into the world and try stuff and do stuff and then you'll make your own greatness, whatever that happens to be. And I think doing is what is done. But only a few. We have a lot of talkers in life, a lot of people representing things that they've never actually experienced themselves, they've never actually done themselves. But I think it's important to learn from those who have actually accomplished something.

When I was 17 and itching to get out in the world and move on more and more I talked about a trip with a friend of mine and we were going to go to Hawaii. And like a lot of teenagers talking about a lot of things, we made very detailed plans for this thing. And then I prepared for the trip and I made my arrangements and we were going to go through separate things because he had an in with the airline through his family and so on. And so I gathered my things and I got on my flight and I flew there and my friend didn't show up and, and I called then. So I'm, I'm not even 18 at this point, right. And I'm in Hawaii by myself where I had grown up. So I knew people, I knew my way around and that kind of thing. And I called my friend, my friend's like, oh, sorry, dude, I can't get make it. I, like, I didn't talk to my dad and I can't work it out. And it's like, are you kidding me? Look what the hell? And I was really, really distraught about this. Like, what am I going to do? I'm here for a week roughly by myself now. What am I going to do with this trip? We had all these thoughts and plans and that kind of thing. And I got on the phone with my dad and I was, I was sad and upset, disappointed. And he's like, look, he said, I know you're going to find a way to deal with this and something surprising will come of it and you'll learn something about yourself. But one thing you should know right away is that you're one of the people who actually does stuff.

That's right.

And it was a deeply validating thing. And, and I've noticed it in my kids too, as they've gone out and they've hatched things and their friends have been more, more talk than action. And if you're one of those people, and I suspect the vast majority of our listeners and viewers are, then you should give yourself a pat on the back for doing that. But also know that not everyone does that come as easily for.

Right. Well, that's right. But it's the affirmation of that, of the effort of doing that's important by those observing, right. Whether we're parents or friends or coaches. And sometimes that doing ends in failure and we have to affirm that that's okay, right? You went out and did something even though it didn't work out. And I've had plenty of failures in my life, both personally and professionally. Right? And sometimes the best laid plans of men and mice, right, they just don't work out. And so our best efforts sometimes end in failure and we have to deal with that. We have to accept accountability and responsibility. Having someone there that says, that's okay, you gave it your best shot. Now let's go do something else that's really important and particularly important with children. Particularly important with children.

Let's Talk about some of the people you've coached and tell some of the stories that you've mentored along the way. You shared some. As we got ready and planned out our conversation for today, talk about Mark Russo. I think some of our listeners, viewers will know, Mark, talk about your work there and what he went through.

Well, Mark Russo is a fantastic guy. I met him in Miami at about 2009 or 10, right after the financial crisis. He was a custom spec home builder in Seattle, Washington. Had a great company doing about $50 million in revenue. And he got washed away by the financial crisis in 2008, 9 and 10. And when I met him, pure serendipity. The first hour he, you know, we spent crying together. I mean, it was just a very difficult situation because he not only lost his business, all of his employees, all of his revenue, he was about to lose his wife and his children, his home, his car's being repossessed. His partner stayed with him, JMS Estrano. They stayed together. They'd been together since they were DJs in high school, and they, they were going to fight it out together. They owed the banks, I don't know, $3 million, something like that. So that was the guy I met. And I said, well, Mark, what is it you want to be? He said, with absolute clarity, vision. I want to be the best custom spec home builder in Seattle, Washington. And I said, well, good, let's get about that then. And we started from there, applying his clarity of vision with his certainty of intent. Now he could work toward that and the power of his values. And I said, mark, what do you value? I value my marriage. I value my spousal relationship. I value my children. I want to be a great dad. I want to be an influence in the community. I want to be a really good CEO. And I haven't been a good CEO. I let it go to my head. I was wasteful in my spending. I was doing a lot of silly things. I don't have anything now. I want to be good in all that space. I said, great. Then let's begin to apply these five principles. And if you apply them every day, your end result will happen. Your outcome will be there. And the five are first, commit to a higher level of personal discipline. Everybody I know that's successful is very disciplined. Second, live with purpose every day. Know what your purpose is every single day you live. Know. Third, act with intent on everything. You don't. Don't do anything unintentionally. Do everything intentionally. Fourth, make conscious choices about everything in Your life. There is no small decision that we make in life. I believe every decision has consequences. Large or small, they all have consequences. So make good decisions, right? And then lastly, engage in a cause greater than yourself. Give to your community. Serve other people. If you're having a bad day, go serve somebody else who's having a terrible day and you'll feel better. And so apply. He began to apply those five principles. Well, right in the middle of that, he had to have brain surgery. Another blow, right? But he recovered, he came back. Well, where's Mark today after applying these? Now it's what, eight years later, nine years later, 10 years later, he doesn't have a $50 million company anymore. He has a $75 million company growing like crazy. Custom inspect homes. He's won all kinds of national awards. Best place to work, best leadership, quality company. He's got a hardcore group of people in the culture of his company that are absolutely phenomenal. And he's giving to his community in significant ways. And more importantly, he and his wife reconciled. He and his children on a good path. Mark is on a six month sabbatical right now, living in South Africa, Cape Town, soon to go to Switzerland for a world class experience for his children during one of the most difficult times in the world. The coronavirus. It's amazing. It's amazing.

Especially across Europe.

Yeah, that's right. But I think, Bill, for you and I to observe that, to be coaches, to help other people, right? It's so rewarding, it's so gratifying just to see the progress. My happiness at my age in life comes from the success of other people. And I love to see that success. And I have 25 stories in the books about that kind of success.

You know, that's a really good thing to notice. What is it that gives you the deepest success and satisfaction? Because I think that's an indicator to the kind of leader, the kind of human being that you want to be. I have hobbies and things that I love to do, right. I like to surf, I like to sail. That makes me really happy. It's very enjoyable for me. And yet if I have a contribution to someone, whether it's sharing the surfing or sailing or helping someone grow their business or fix something in their life, that is a much deeper satisfaction. And to be honest, if I can combine the two, share something that I particularly enjoy and love in a fulfilling, generous way, that's like over the charts, right? That's like, that's off the chain for me. Like.

Well, you enjoy nice things, you Enjoy good things, right? Sailing, surfing. I mean, I grew up surfing in Southern California after I moved there from the farm, so enjoy that a lot. Catching a big wave is really fun. Sometimes you get killed and thrown into the sand, but yeah, it's really fun. No, for me, it always starts with my family, right? So my, my most important points of happiness have to do with my spousal relationship and the smile on my wife's face. And it has to do with our seven children and our 19 grandchildren. We're a unique American family. All three generations of our family live together on a farm in the center of Tucson, Arizona. And so we have goats and pigs and sheep and chickens and dogs and all that stuff. And our grandchildren have place to run around our children. And so I get to see the faces and the happiness of our family, enjoy every day. So that's critical for me, it's just seeing them parent and seeing them have happiness and joy. There are other things.

Some of our listeners and viewers in other parts of the world, in India and the Middle east, are familiar with this sort of multi family living where they live on a compound. But that's far, far less common among most of us who live maybe near each other, but often not. You know, my mom lives in a whole other state at this point, so.

Yeah, yeah, Bill, you're right. It's much more common, I think in particular North American society to move away from your family to go find the job or the city or whatever it is. Our children all, all went to great schools, they all graduated, they all started their careers in different ways. And then they got together and said, how would mom and dad feel if we all moved back to Tucson, Arizona? And we built homes on the property? And so they approached us with that. And of course, as any parent would say, yeah, man, that's fantastic, that's great. We're excited about that. And so over a period of time, we rezoned the property. Every child got four acres and an opportunity to build a home. And it is really an unbelievably marvelous experience. And our family is just very happy. We get along really well. The 19 grandchildren are being raised almost as siblings. I mean, they all know each other, they play with each other every day, they go to school together, right? So it's been a lot of fun for us. But I think separate and apart from that, the joy and happiness. For me, I've been in leadership as long as I can remember. From the sixth grade forward. For whatever reason, people ask me to lead as student body president or as Captains of sports teams or special committees of this or different kinds of things, I've always seemed to end up there. And so what I enjoy most is using all the experiences I've had, all the lessons that I've learned along the way, passing those on to others, and then watching them use them, those lessons in a successful way for themselves, and then see their growth, like Mark Russo and dozens of other people, scores of other people that I've mentored who have done exactly the same thing. Really remarkable things. So overcoming huge obstacles, this notion of going from tragedy to triumph, right? And it's from success to completion. Those are really important concepts. And, and I think it's been fun for me to do this. So I. I'm just that farm kid. I know I was at the White House and I was invited to a White House dinner for the King of Norway and the President was hosting it. And I was, I didn't think about at the time, I was the highest ranking Norwegian in the US government, right. I was 29 years old at the time. I'm a farm kid, remember? I'm a farm kid in the White House. I can't believe it. And so the President invited me to join them for dinner. My eyes were wide open. This was fantastic. And when I got there, I was seated next to the King of Norway, who was seated next to the President of the United States. And I'm thinking, for a 29 year old farm kid, I mean, this is, you know, I don't have my bib overalls on, but this is a pretty good deal. You know, I was really excited about that. It just so happened that I could speak a few words of Norwegian, which the King greatly loved. And the President thought I was over the charts smart, right? Because I knew a few words of Norwegian and we had a great time. But just this notion of just loving where we end up, whatever seat we're sitting in at the moment, let's just enjoy that seat, let's learn all we can from that and then let's move on to our next experience. And that was the White House for me was a wonderful, great learning experience. And those relationships I created helped me the rest of my life. But it was just one part of my life, just like basketball was one part of my life. They're like chapters in a book. And when I get done with them, I close that chapter, take the learnings from that chapter and move on to the next chapter. And I've had a lot of chapters in my life and it's been a lot of Fun.

You know, one of the things I heard you share there is something that I learned years ago from another, from a coach that I had at the time. And so for 16 years, I've been doing leadership and growth coaching at one kind or another. And I was getting ready to go speak to a group of. I want to say they were plumbing contractors. So I was on the phone with my coach before I led this workshop for this group group, and I was feeling anxious and insecure, Like, I am much more of, like a urban intellectual. I don't know, like, about some of these trades. And they're not going to like me, these plumbers. And how am I going to. I was just really anxious. Like, I hadn't. Somebody else had set it up and asked me to go lead a workshop for these people. And my coach said to me, she said, you really think you're that different from them? Do you not all have issues with your parents and your spouses and your kids and your jobs and your bosses and your bankers? And you think you're that different? Like, I don't know, maybe you watch different TV shows or something like that? She said, but I think if you go there with an open mind and give up all that arrogant bullshit that you're trafficking in with yourself, you might be surprised at how common you are. So why don't you set aside every other thought, intention, concern for this particular workshop and just go notice what you have in common with people? And it was deeply moving because I was humbled. Like, no, we are human beings and we have these same struggles, right? We all have issues with our spouses and our parents and our jobs and our people and all of that. And I was like, wow, maybe all that other nonsense about how I do this and watch, that is all just nonsense I tell myself that gets in the way of connecting with human beings.

No, I think that's true. It's a great example and a great story. I think we're seeing that in our nation right now, in nations around the world, the polarization of human beings based on identity and culture and politics, right? And without getting into politics, it always strikes me that we have so much in common. We all want education for our kids. We all want safety and security. We want good highways and roads and bridges. There's so many things we have in common. Why can't we begin the discussion from our points of common interest and then move out from there? Will there be things we disagree about? Sure there will be. That's okay. We can, you know, disagree without being disagreeable. I think this notion is that we are now starting everything from our points of disagreement and we can't find what.

We have in mind. Yeah.

So as we move out, it gets worse, not better. It just gets worse. And so we hope in our community and our family that we always start from points of interest. What do we feel similar about? How do we think about these things? And when we get that out on the table, we realize, you know, there's a lot here that we agree on. Now let's talk about some of the other stuff that we can probably work and figure out. I recall when I was in the White House, the President of the United States would frequently call up the speaker of the House or the President of the Senate and say, let's have dinner and let's just talk about. And I got to attend some of those meetings. And it was the President would say, here's the kind of thing I'm thinking about for legislation. And the speaker or the President would say, well, that's probably something we can't do with this majority, but here's something we can do now. Let's try to forge. And they would work out some things and then present those as legislative packages where there was already some agreement. They would start from a position of agreement. And I think that's a much better place to start, generally speaking.

So, you know, the thing that I'm struck by in that is how much easy it is where you began our conversation, starting with the end in mind. Right. Because we're very often aligned on what we want for the future. You know, prosperous nation and families that are healthy and all that. Kind of like when we start with that, then we work back to and kind of resolve our things. But too often there's this backlook about our grievances and our position of where we are today. And not enough of that. Vision oriented. What do you imagine? Right. And I think that that could make not only a difference in places like the Middle east, but also here in the United States and in our businesses. I had a pair of business partners that I got pulled into coach on who were ready to sort of burn down or sell off the assets of a company. And they had very different ideas about, like, how where to go from here. One wanted to grow and the other wanted to kind of stay as things were. And so we went way out in the future. And I said, what's your legacy? And we found some common area where they both agreed on what they wanted to leave after they had left the company, what they wanted to give to the leaders and the other people on the team and what they wanted to build with it. And from that, we actually worked back fairly quickly and aligned on a compromise in the present course of action for how to. How to move forward. Right?

Yeah, I think it's really important. I think it's finding the common interests, right? Finding the common agreement from which you then begin a more delicate conversation is really essential. And I think that's very helpful in all the things we do. And I think your point is very well taken. I think as I looked at the various stories that I wanted to put in the book, and there are a lot of them, I ran two parallel tracks in the book, right? One is. Was my personal story, and the other was the story of the people I encountered along the way and what happened to them, you know. And, you know, you think about Jamie Duraghi, for example. I gave a speech in Los Angeles.

Yeah, Our mutual friend.

And. And he came up to me afterwards and we were talking. He said, well, I want to be the US Fencing Champion. And I said, have you ever fenced before? And he said, I've been fencing my whole life. Won a few here and there, but, you know, I just stagnated. I can't get anymore. And I said, well, how old are you? And he said, 52 years old. I said, I don't know many 52 year olds who want to be the US fencing champion. And I said, so to kind of put him off and see if he was really committed, I said, if you really want to, here's what you have to do. You have to do everything I tell you to do, number one. And number two is that you need to call me early next week to let me know you really are committed to that. And I didn't expect to hear from him again. He called me 6am on Monday morning and said, I want to be the US Fencing Champion and I want you to help me. So we began to rebuild him and really think about the principles he was applying and how he was doing this. Well, six months and 18 days later, I flew to Los Angeles to the Anaheim Convention center. And Jamie was one of 64 fencers in the national championship. And after 12 rounds, he was in the gold medal round. This was only six months after practicing diligently these particular principles. He lost that 10 to 9. But what he learned about himself propelled him to win three national championships over the next seven years and to be on seven consecutive international teams for the United States of America, which led to a year ago, last October, him Winning the bronze medal as the third best fencer in the world and leading his team, the United States, to the best medal finish ever. A silver medal for the United States team. It's this notion that if we apply principles in a very particular and meticulous way, we get different results. We all know the definition of insanity, right? It's doing the same thing and expecting different results. Unless we change our habits and patterns every day, we will not get different results. We'll be frustrated, but we won't get different results.

I think that's really a powerful thing to think about, is so simple and yet not easy to do. Like, you're gonna have to try some new approaches, right? We're gonna change up some things, and that includes you, not just the people around you.

That's right. That's right. We often introduce change for others. Right. But we're not real good at changing ourselves.

House. I wish my coo. I wish somebody else would change anybody except me, because I'm really comfortable like I am. I work for.

You Know why the caterpillar spins itself into a cocoon is because the caterpillar doesn't want anyone to hear all the screaming before it transforms into a butterfly. And I think that's true. Sometimes there's a lot of screaming when we try to change ourselves. There's a lot of angst that goes with that. But if we can come to the point, point where we look at ourselves deeply enough to understand that we might be the problem, we might be the problem in the marriage, we might be the problem for our family or the business, and if we look really closely under the microscope at ourselves to say, if I were to change a few things, could we have different outcomes? And what you'll find is it's almost always true that if we'll change ourselves in interesting ways, the outcomes become ever much more interesting.

So I think for some people, that's very comforting to me. I know it deeply. And yet I always want other people to change first. And I'm always, like, desperate for them to finally buckle and do what I want. And when things are going wrong, some people say, what's wrong with me? What am I screwing up? I tend to go first to what's wrong with everyone else. I know I'm revealing the deep, deep arrogance that I have and the complete lack of humility. But that is my first instinct. If I'm really honest, it's what's wrong with everybody. Why don't they see the world the way that I do? And why won't they just stop doing that and do it the way that I want them to do it. I'm really like. And then I know now enough at 56 intellectually and from experience to go, I really need to go look in the mirror right now. And yet I really resist doing it. I'm like, I really would like somebody else to finally. And I don't want to go through that. I know that the breakthrough is on the other side of a barrier, and I know that I've got to move through the barrier to be uncomfortable, to have that breakthrough. And I know that I love breakthroughs, and yet I'm really, really personally resistant. I'm sure some others are like me, maybe not that many, but. But some who resist doing that personal work and focus. And it's always rewarding when you finally do surrender and go, you know what? Because it's that good news, bad news, tension. It's bad news that it's your fault, right? Because you've got to fix something or deal with something or apologize for something. It's good news because it's way easier to work on you than someone else.

Well, and isn't that really the society we live in today? It's always somebody else's fault. And social media, yours extends that to the nth degree, Right? But if my child isn't playing enough on the soccer team, then it's the coach's fault, right? And if my child isn't doing well in class, it's obviously the teacher's fault, right? And so we are not allowing our children and sometimes our colleagues in work to go out and experience the world and experience failure and do their best and try their best and be okay with it. That. And the other part of that is we have a great deal of difficulty controlling our own ego. The world is really not, I, me, my. It's us, ours. And we. And once we change our language, it changes our thought process that, Bill, you and I are in this together. We're in this together. We need to make this a better world. It's not your job or my job. It's our job. And if we start changing our words from my children and my home. Home and my car to our children and our marriage, right? If we start talking like that, it changes the paradigm of language. The other thing that I've watched carefully over all these many years of leadership, 50, 55, 60 years of leadership, is what are the most admirable traits and qualities in great leaders that I've met and worked with in my lifetime? And these are politicians and generals and interesting captains of industry and authors, writers, celebrities. And there are five that I have found to be remarkable. The first is humility. That I found the most consistent quality among the greatest leaders with whom I've associated has been humility. The second is the ability to listen, to ask good questions and listen. I think the best leaders ask the best questions. Third is the ability to communicate, and that is to articulate what we have heard and then digest that in a way that's acceptable to the greatest number of people. Fourth is eq. It's emotional intelligence. It's the ability to understand the social fabric and the social interactions that we have. In a way, that's a gain for everyone. And fifth is iq. It's raw intellectual talent and power. But it's interesting that I would put IQ fifth, not first. That notion that humility, I think, is the most important quality and trait that we can have. And if you look to the greatest presidents in the United States or some of the greatest leaders we've had in the world, one of whom I greatly admire, Nelson Mandela. I had a chance to meet him in the 90s and spend some time with him, and he was maybe at that moment the most significant leader in the United States. In the world, I should say. And he was humble, he was quiet, he was unassuming. Right. And he had learned that from being a young terrorist fighting apartheid, being put in prison for 26 and a half years, and then coming out of that experience to be one of the most significant leaders in world history. And I think that quiet self confidence. Right. Breeds humility. We don't have to prove ourselves. We know who we are, we're comfortable with who we are. And that humility is really critical.

Yeah, I think there's a. It certainly gets easier with age. I notice that the amount of efforting that I put out at an earlier age and wanting to show everyone who I was and what I was capable of was so different than it is today. The calm, the presence, the confidence, the abundance, the. That is really different for me at 56 than it was at, say, 26.

Right.

I can imagine time has kicked some of that out of me. But. And you know, it's interesting, you said that listening came well before talking, and I learned to talk long before, maybe I learned to listen. Speaking has always been much, much easier for me.

And.

And talking or the listening is something that I've had to develop and practice and be intentional about, because I start off first thinking I know everything.

That's why I came on your shows. To learn. I just came on your show to learn.

That's my sort of wired in default thing, is that I already know and understand what's happening here. And I've learned with, like, lots of mistakes to surrender what I think I know and listen for what's actually going on. And even when I'm right already, when I was right and I did know, the difference in listening creates a connection and relationship with the other human being that lets them actually hear what I eventually have to say. So learning to listen and developing that discipline has been transformational, but it isn't like my first go to.

Well, we actually teach that in the Global Leadership Academy for entrepreneurs in Washington, D.C. and all over the world. When we teach leadership and we teach how to listen, there's actually an alpha position for listening. There's a physical position on how you can listen better, how you can ask questions, how you give reinforcement to the person speaking. Did I understand that correctly? Is that true? Did I hear you exactly as you meant to say that? We ask clarifying questions, we do all those kinds of things, and then we ask the question behind the question. It's like if you and I met each other in the hallway and I said, bill, how you doing? You say, I'm doing great, thank you, and we pass each other. That's one form of communication. But if I stopped you and said, bill, how are you really doing and what can I help you with? That's a different form of communication. That's a different form of questioning and listening. And we need to avail ourselves of that opportunity as human beings is to really listen to other people's stories. That was my dad. My dad loved to listen to other people's stories because he learned from them. Right? And I came on this show today, one of the things that I said to myself before I came to be with you today, I said, what can I learn from Bill today? How can I learn something from Bill so that I can take away from this experience something that helps me enriches my life? And so I think if we have that attitude of what can I learn from this situation? Not what I can tell you, but what can I learn from this situation that's going to make me better? I think that helps us in our perspective about the interaction.

You know, let me underscore that a little bit. I'm definitely humbled by that. And I can take you at your word that that's truthful and not a gimmicky thing that you said, because I think you really are. And yet it is Kind of extraordinary. Not normal that a person with your accomplishments and age and like all that, compared to me, would come on looking for something to learn that reveals something deep about your character and discipline and the traits of leadership that you've developed. Because that is not what most of us would do to say I'm going to come on that show. Certainly the show is here so that I and our listeners can learn from you. That's the design. But for you to come on here to share what you've got, but also to be listening for, looking for what there is for you to learn is something we could all learn from.

Well, I, you know, I always see myself as the farm kid. While I was sitting next to the King of Norway, I said, holy cow, the King of Norway's talking to the farm kid who happens to be Norwegian. Right. I've always seen myself in that context of being the farm kid trying to learn, trying to find things, figure things out. And have I had my moments of ego? Absolutely. Can I tell you, I've been humble my whole life. Let me give you the story. It's in the book. So I was a senior in high school and I'd won lots of awards for basketball and I was student body president, number one in my class. Beautifully good looking, as you can see, and chiseled out of granite as a body. There's no question about it, right? So I thought I was the coolest guy in the entire world and I was acting exactly like that and I was showing my ego to everybody and I was struggling a little bit. And so we had a wrestling coach at where I went to high school, California High school in Whittier, California. Great school. He was a wrestling coach, Clint South, a great guy. He was also my government teacher and he'd been observing me unknown to me. And after class one day he sat me down and he said, warren, you're a jerk and if you keep acting like this, you'll have no friends. Your ego is out of control. And he got up and walked away. Away. For an 18 year old kid who had just achieved all of his life's goals, to hear that from a man he respected and admired was an enormous emotional. I mean, I cried over that. I mean, there was a big hurt for me, but it was a great lesson for me. Yeah, it was a great lesson that let's not let our ego get out ahead of who we really are because we all have interesting insecurities or lack of self confidence or inexperience or whatever it might be. We all have some of that in our body. And we should just be humble enough to recognize that we aren't the answer to the world. We're just one small part of it. Just one small part of it. And that was a great lesson for me. And there have been other times. Another story, if you don't mind. My wife and I were leading a YPO university to India. 800 YPOers and their spouses. It turned out to be very spectacular. We'd been planning it for two years. It was great. And just before we left, we'd sold one of our companies and. And our bank account was relatively full. In fact, I went to the banker one day and I said, I'd like to make a deposit. He says, you can't make a deposit. Your bank account is full. I don't know if you've ever had that happen, Bill, but it's just one of those things, right? And so, and so, and so we went off to India. We had this wonderful experience. And so I'm packing to come home the morning after the event in India, and my wife said, well, we're not going back to India. I mean, not going back to the United States. And I said, what are you talking about? Because I want to get back and buy the new car and maybe get a boat and in an airplane or whatever I needed. At that point, my ego was telling me. She said, we're going to go visit Mother Teresa's charities in Calcutta, and we're going to spend a week in the center for Dying Patients and a week in the center for Adoptive Special Needs Children. They're five years of age. I said, well, I don't really want to do that. She said, you ever have your wife say, we're going to Calcutta, right? So I understood where we were going. After spending a week of holding people in your arms who are in their last minutes and days and hours, life, and having them die in your presence. My material stuff didn't seem very important. And then we walked into a warehouse. For the next week, there were 5,000 children in cribs under the age of five, all with special needs, missing a leg, an arm and eye, all wanting to be held, all wanting to be kissed, all wanting to be fed. And after doing that for a week, it's very emotional to talk about. It was a very, very important experience in my life. My wife knew I needed that, just like Clint south, the wrestling coach, knew I needed that. We have to be able to speak truth to people at the moment. They need that in order to recalibrate and create equilibrium for them in their lives. I needed that both of those instances. My ego had gotten too far out of control and I think sometimes we can reign ourselves in. Sometimes we need to be influenced by others.

That's really a beautiful, I think, story to end our conversation on the opportunity of living a life that you can look back on and say, I was humbled by the opportunity to serve. I know that I found a way to make a difference for other people. That's a lovely thing for our listeners, viewers. Warren and I will be leading a two and a half day, three and a half day program eventually on Santorini in Greece on leadership, on creating the rest of your life. It was going to be last year, then it was going to be this year. Now it's been moved out a year as we grapple with the pandemic globally. But I can't wait for that day to arrive. Let me summarize a couple things I heard for people so they can digest it and think about it. We started first with having a clear vision. Think about what you're building and why you're building it. What matters to you? What do you imagine for the future? What's the outcome that you're going for? Starting with that end in mind, imagine the field, what crops are going to go there, what's the yield like? What do you want to realize with your work? And then you talked about the dedication and repetition. So committing yourself, being uncomfortable, actually working on things and then doing that again and again. Being willing to not be perfect but to practice things in pursuit of perfection perhaps never reached. I think those are some of the key points that I heard you make as we went through all of this.

I appreciate that summary, Bill. Thank you very much. I've certainly appreciated talking with with you today and thank you for the takeaways as well. And I appreciate that. So I'll go away better because of this and improve because of this, which is true of all of your listeners all of the time. So thank you very much for allowing me to be on your show today.

So some shout outs on other things. If you want more, go to theleaderwithinus.com or find the leader within us on Amazon. We'll put those links in the show, notes for the show and here in the crawl on the video right now. Theleaderwithinus.com the leader within us on Amazon or wherever you get your books. I want to give thanks to Verne Harnish, author and creator of the Scaling Up Framework and the original Rockefeller Habits, founder of the EO organization that grew our work for Scaling up and so on. Big thanks also to Lucy Summers who gets our show ready, schedules things, promotes, does all the work behind the scenes producing things, and to Albert Burge at Podfly Productions who will edit our audio and get it all clean and sounding good for distribution. Our show notes get written up by Ann Kodina and proofread by Tim McGowan. Thanks again everyone for listening and watching. Keep Scaling Up.

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