293: Alison Horstmeyer — Why Your Curiosity Matters

Are you thinking about how to grow your business with near and offshore staffing? But you're also wanting to make sure that it's reliable, cost effective and really well done. I think docsa talent is the way to go. Here's why. They don't just fill your jobs. They bring integrity, top talent and a people first approach that's hard to find. I've known the people at Doxa talent for over 20 years now and I say that you can count on them. I have. Talk to docs of Talent and you won't be disappointed. Go to docsatant.com Bill G. Again, that's doxatant.com Bill G. One more time. Doxatalent.com Bill G. Check it out today. Oh, it's been a little while since we were live. We've been so busy doing client sessions all over the place with fourth quarter planning. It's nice to go live and have a conversation again. We're talking about curiosity today. The value, the importance of curiosity at any time really. But in today's world, in, in the environment, things we're dealing with, the importance of curiosity. Hopefully it doesn't kill this cat. Oh, hey everybody. Welcome back to the show. My name is Bill Gallagher, scaling coach, host of the Scaling Up Business podcast. We bring our show to you every week and all our back catalog of hundreds and hundreds of shows now on all the things to do with people, strategy, execution, cash and the leadership to take your company the next level. All that and more@scalingcoach.com. We're talking today with Allison Horstmeyer. Allison is a an all around talent development consultant, executive coach, humanistic thought leader and I think it's been a great conversation. You can tell just by her vibe I put on the music, she's starting to groove. If you can't groove with it, then you're no good. Handle a lot of things in life.

Gotta flow with it. Gotta flow.

So, so not only does she do this kind of work with business leaders and some pretty great like big blue chip companies, Verizon Media, Vanguard, Stanford Health, Trans, Transdigum Group, Transdig, Transdig, Transdig Group. So lots of big companies. She's also an adjunct professor doing actual like research. So like there's real meat behind some of the stuff that she does through the USC Marshall School and the Annenberg Center. So I'm happy to have you on the show.

Welcome show Allison, thanks so much for having me here. Yeah, love the jam in the beginning.

Where are you today?

I'm in Los Angeles California.

Oh, nice. I'm. I was originally from Los Angeles. I was just there last week. Yeah, born there, but now mostly up in Northern California.

Oh, the SoCal no cow thing.

SoCal no cow. I don't. They both have their merits.

They do, absolutely.

Place for all of us. So before we get into the curiosity, some of the stories you have about clients and your work in curiosity, talk about how do you come to this work, what got you interested, what made you curious about curiosity?

Yeah. So I come from a long tenure building businesses at the intersection of tech and media, typically new technology, typically at the fringes, typically global purview. I was called in to launch new things or turn things around. And it was, you know, I've been through leadership development programs. I was always kind of fascinated what triggered people, what drove people. As I got later in my career, I really enjoyed making other people successful, working with international sales teams or cross functional teams. And I really noticed a lot of anxiety and complacency and stress which of we have still today. And I was always fascinated between kind of mind body science, behavioral science. And so I did, I went back to school to study those things, to study different disciplines. And I really was going to try to really investigate anxiety. And it was during that process in my mindfulness research, I said wow, you know, can we, can we be curious and anxious all the same time? I thought maybe I had something was super naive. But it did prompt me to investigate curiosity more and to really immerse myself into that research. And I got certified as a coach and certified as a yoga teacher. Like I was just exploring different disciplines. And actually the work in curiosity led me back to anxiety because anxiety is indelibly tied to curiosity is how we manage the anxiety, the stress or the doubt of exploration, of going into the unfamiliar, going into the new. And I really wanted to bring the work in a practical way to organizations. There has been definitely a growing appetite from organizations to understand what curiosity is, how to harness it, how to integrate it into their culture because they're realizing it. It's a meta skill. It's really a doorway to collaboration, to communication, to creativity. I think oftentimes we associate curiosity with creativity and innovation, but we don't associate it with, you know, building self awareness or how it really informs our interpersonal relationships, our team dynamics. And that's what's really interesting to me is that we're using the richness of curiosity to really upshift how we perceive our ways of showing up and interacting and supporting each other.

It's funny you talk about anxiety and then curiosity. And when I'm feeling anxious, one of the first things that I try to do is bring curiosity to it. Wow, look at me. I'm anxious. What's going on with me? Wow, look at that. Look at my heart. Wow, my breathing's way up, my palms are sweating or whatever. The version of anxiety that I've been getting in any given moment, I wonder what that's all about. And then I notice things like, huh. And that happened. That happened.

Oh.

And I think that's going on. And I guess that's what I'm anxious about. And that the hold of the anxiety is shifted, doesn't necessarily disappear yet, but.

Yeah, exactly. So, you know, there. There's an opportunity for exploration. What you did on the spot was you got into exploration mode and saying. And you say, what is this really about? You took a pause. I think that's what I really try to imbue is, like, curiosity offers us the pause to get reflective and to assess, which we really need to do in any juncture at any career point. Whatever we're doing, we don't think we take the time for the pause enough and the reflection, because we're just doing. We're just going. And I see time and time again in my research and in my work with clients, as soon as we get to the exponential exploration and being open to what's potentially this could be about, or the inputs coming in, or, wow, I don't know. This is like totally challenging a subjective belief. And then integrating what you found, like, you just integrated. You said, okay, well, now, like, I've taken a layer away. I've just kind of unpacked something that now I can work with. And then your stress tolerance actually went up and your anxiety went down. I see it time and time again. That, and in the. In that way, too. Bill, you almost reframed your anxiety as, like, oh, wait, it's information. What is this information?

It was two, three days ago, and I had one of my projects and some of the people I work with go really not the way I wanted, and I was really upset by it, and I was anxious about what it might mean and how I'd handled it and really spooling over and over, like, what do I need to do? And how do I head this off? And where's this going to go? And that kind of thing. And this actually chewed me up all night long. I slept very badly that night after this afternoon meeting, but I just kept going back to, what am I worried about? What do I care about how am I feeling right now? So a mix of the, the. The intellectual side, which for the most part just creates more anxiety for me anyway, and then also a fair amount of like, just like body reflection. How do I feel right now? I can't sleep. Wow. I'm like, I feel this everywhere. This is upsetting my stomach, you know, and, and what am I. Where am I worried about this is going to the implications of this. Right. So just. I just did my best to be. To not res. Like, not stuff it down or suppress it, but sort of lean into it. It still did take away a lot of that night, but I wasn't like, up all night throwing things against the wall. I just didn't sleep particularly well.

Yeah, I think also what you're saying is, you know, how can I use the exploration part of curiosity to check in on my narratives? And we have. So, you know, I think we. We are working in a lot of assumptions that create. Create narratives that are a lot of times rooted in past experience or past experiences that have nothing to do with what's going on in the present time. And then your, your. We are so good at creating narratives that are just rooted in illusion and untruth, but they feel so true in the moment because we're giving such, you know, weight. Weight to them. And then, yeah, the, the emotionality of that, it gets high. You know, our cortisols are going, going through the roof and we're kind of in the fight orf flight mode.

And so when, when for me, it's like, it's like that. Like it's all projection and it's not very conscious. So she says, or they do something that's a little bit like something happened in the past. And I go completely into reacting and interacting with them in the world, consistent with what happened a year ago, five years ago, or even versions of that for many years. And I don't even notice that I'm now adding all of that other stuff into this person who just did or said something that was faintly reminiscent of whatever, and I'm now certain that it's going to go a particular way. And when I stop, my first thing is like, oh, shit, this whole relationship is doomed. Like, here it goes again. They did that.

Yeah, that spiral, man, that was a good one. All triggered from something previously. And so, you know, oftentimes when I'm working with executives is how can we use curiosity, really adopt that experience explorer mindset where we're putting those preconceived notions, assumptions and biases to the side. And also clarifying assumptions can be really powerful because you're assuming a lot that may warrant a deeper conversations. And so when that person said that to you, it's like interesting. Can you tell me more about that? Like where you're coming from or, you know, just the Tell me more if you haven't, you know, it never gets old because it doesn't get used enough. Just tell me more about that. That's really interesting.

See, I think the problem though, for at least for someone like me and I know that a lot of our listeners have some of the same problem, is some of us are pretty smart and we've got, in certain places because we're pretty smart. So we don't act as if we think something might be the case. We're certain that it is the way that we see it.

Right. I call it the, I call it the expert mindset.

Right. Like I, I'm, I, I listen to you say something and I'm like, I know exactly where this is going. I, I and that's not even a conscious thought.

No. Well, those are your cognitive biases kicking in, which we all have them. And overconfidence is actually, there was research I think just came out, came out of Harvard. It was in the Harvest Business Review, like one of the, the cognitive biases that are like the undoings of entrepreneurial startups. Overconfidence, Which comes from an overdrive on action bias. So you can have passion and conviction. Just watch out when it turns into overconfidence because then you're not taking in the data and the inputs that really maybe can give you a more informed perspective and you can actually make a better decision. And because Bill, the world is changing so fast, everything is changing that what, you know, know worked last month probably won't work this month. I mean, it's that fast, right? So you can't know everything 100% of the time. Exactly what to do. And the invitation for you and your listeners is how can you bring in some confident humility into the conversation?

Yes. Let me just go reset my vcr, check my answering machine and answer my pager. Right. But yeah, things are changing really fast. And it's interesting that sometimes I see younger leaders in businesses and they're like, all off of this stuff. And I'm like, oh my God, like, you need to just chill out. And then, but then I'll see them do stuff and I'll be like, holy crap, they actually did stuff. That from my more aged perspective, I'd be like, you can't do that that fast. You can move through those spaces.

You can move, you certainly move fast. There's informed risk taking. I'm not saying I actually want us to normalize experimentation, exploration, because that's the only way you get the data points, the reference points, in order to know how to really move, pivot, adjust. And I do appreciate that because that means they're chipping away at the status quo and they're willing to, to challenge, you know, conformity. Conformity is great for when we all need to wear our masks and be respectful of each other. In Covid in organizations, conformity means, can mean top down decision making, stay in your lane. You know, there's no opportunity to bring forward unconventional, nonconformist beliefs. And so the way to break that is through experimentation and exploration. I'm not saying just do it, you know, with no intentionality to it, but certainly I don't think we make room for it enough.

So let's tell some of your client stories. You, one of the ones you share was a tech exec working on the stage presence presentation and that kind of thing. Talk about that.

Yeah. So we talked a bit about anxiety and the relationship to curiosity. What I found in my research is that our core values and it's emergent research, so there's more work to be done, but directionally our core values can inform how we are curious. And there are certain values that we have, this is documented in the research, that tend to be anxiety provoking or they bring about anxiety because they're about self preservation. One of those values is security. Another one is conformity. Just I have a little problem with conformity, as you can see, and, and tradition. I'm not saying you can't have those values. I'm just saying that when they go into overdrive, the anxiety can go up. Because think about it, if, if you're holding on, if you, if you just got a curveball thrown at you, then you're going to kind of hunker down into what you know, in order to feel safe, to feel secure. And so he had, he had very strong values around security. He also had wonderful values like empathy and courage and creativity. And so we really tried to lean into more of those because what was happening when he was presenting to the board or whatever it was, there was always like, there was always, always this fear, like whatever I say, I'm going to lose my job or you know, he stories spiraled out because he's like, you know, I'm not feeling safe. So then anxiety goes up so we really worked on how can he bring his other values forward. And the curiosity in that scenario was practicing with new techniques, with new narratives, with, you know, identifying his inner critic, kind of making fun about it in a way that could be really helpful to him. And of course we got feedback from other stakeholders, but just that it wasn't a performance and that it was really about presenting in a way to really solicit and support conversation. And as soon as he got in more of the conversation mode and how can I be a conduit to bringing about education and alignment in a conversation, then the anxiety comes down and unless it becomes less about a performance. And he felt very secure in that way. So we were able to kind of bring both together.

Yeah, I, I hear that, that, that there's a notion or a tension between I have to be really entertaining and engaging or I want to be outrageous conscious or not. Oh, and, or I want to be taken seriously. And then I hear you flipping it entirely and saying no. In fact, what we're trying to do is stimulate a conversation and engage a group in debate and discussion because we.

Definitely want debate and dissension. The research shows that that's the birthplace of creativity. That's how we get to new ideas and stronger alignment. So we want, we want intellectual friction because it highlights our gaps and brings new perspectives forward.

Yeah, but that's hard, right? Because our first inclination is either I'm gonna just sort of weigh into something because I come from a family or a culture where loud, passionate arguments were just fine, or I'm gonna completely suppress myself because either I come from a culture where that happened, or in my family, the one time they raised their voice, my parents split up and that ruined our family forever. Right. There's some past like that that's going on. Debate and sort something out.

Yeah, I mean, I just worked with another team. They're in the life sciences. They incubate life sciences startups. And yeah, there, there were folks who come who were Japanese and Indian. And those are cultures where you really respect your elders and you don't challenge. And however, you know, their, their boss wanted new ideas challenge, like, don't just take it, take our answer for it. And once they, they, they all had to really practice a being the explorer, figure out a cognitive bias they wanted to look out for. And, and, and each of these two individuals. And there was also people from China. So we had, you know, all the cultures really kind of representative are very much about supporting your elders. And each of them were, you know, were very Intentional about. About things that they could do in their role. And they took baby steps about finding their voice, about, like, pushing back in a way that they could get feedback. So they let others know that this is what they were going to do. So that was also helpful. And really the beautiful thing was that they were two that worked in the lab and they wanted really to get understanding. They were having trouble with a piece of equipment. There was rules enforced about, you can't go to conferences because of COVID We don't want you to bring you that back. And they're like, I want to really figure this out. And it's not really like them to challenge the rules, but they're like, nobody can tell me what I can do on my PTO day, so let's take a PTO day and go to the conference and go talk to these individuals and get trained on this piece of equipment. And they did. They drove to the conference, they got trained, they took notes, they came back and they said, look what we've learned. And they shared the learnings with everybody. And their boss was like, oh, wow, I heard you guys broke the rules. Awesome. Congrats. You know, so again, they didn't have the reference point for it, but as soon as they were, like, willing to, like, dip their toe in the water and see what it was like and take an experiment with it, then they had a new reference point for it.

Yeah, that's an interesting thing. A lot of the companies and organizations that we've worked with in the last year and a half have been in a variety of places. One is like, these are the rules. We have to follow the rules, like, whatever. And then others are like, don't tell me what to do. I'm just going to do whatever. And then they deal with the impact. And then other were like, let's be creative and balanced and that kind of thing. And so we're not going to wait for Covid to be over to get relief from this regulatory or whatever. They're like, well, what makes sense and how do we deal and adapt? And the companies that took the third approach, that was not to either sort of political extreme, but was pragmatic and thoughtful, have had the best year and a half. Right. That have had the best outcomes. Overall, it's a smaller sample, but it's not insignificant. The number of companies that we touch and hear from in a year.

Yeah, I think what we're saying is we, you know, there again, there's. There's informed risk taking, there's safe exploration, you know, in this scenario, they had all been vaccinated. They did a COVID test before they went, they did a COVID test when they came back. Like, you know, they took the necessary precautions. It wasn't, they weren't disrespectful to others. You know, they wanted to keep others safe. And I think if nothing else that Covid's taught us, we have to be creative and inventive. And there are the legacy ways of doing things have gone out the window. And if you're still holding on to those, your anxiety is going up because you're feeling like you're getting left behind, because you are. And those that are taking the initiative to try new ways of thinking, new ways of engaging, who are, you know, doing minimal, viable product testing. So iterative testing, you have the basic features, you test those and then you get feedback and you build on that. Those are the ones that can iterate faster and pivot and adjust. And those are new paradigms that we're seeing more and more of.

You shared also in getting ready for the show about a woman who had tension between competing values or they occurred as competing of responsibility and curiosity. And how did that live for? Can you bring that to life for us? Tell us about that.

Yeah, absolutely. So super talented and making just such a significant contribution in her role. And you know, responsibility can be a really wonderful value in terms of follow through, meeting your obligations, doing quality work. But imagine when it's on overdrive, then are you taking on everybody else's monkeys? Are you solving things that you shouldn't be because you're feeling like nobody else is picking that up. So then you should, it's even totally out of the scope of, of what she needs to be focused on. And then this person becomes extremely maxed out, not allocating and prioritizing her energy and focus in the way she needs. Then her team is getting stretched full, you know, to the max, and, and the burnouts on the horizon. She has curiosity as a value as well. And she realizes that when her responsibility is an overdrive, she's an immediate problem solving mode, even when it's not her problem. And so she's using her curiosity more to say, hey, wait a minute, let me slow this down, let me ask a few questions, let me get clarified. So I know where to direct this question person or this project to where it needs to go and it's not mine, or if somebody is coming to me, because now she's basically trained people to come to her with everything. And then because she has such high responsibility she takes it on. So. And then it dilutes her ability to build relationships with senior stakeholders because she's wallowing in all this other stuff that she's trying to get done. It's preventing her from really having more, spending more time on the strategy and holding the North Star. And so bringing in her curiosity, realizes go, wow, like, this isn't mine. This. This belongs to somebody else. And it's not, it's not responsibility shirking. It's actually like, this isn't my scope. This belongs to somewhere else. And. And by doing that, her anxiety then comes down and she's really helping to delegate in a way that's much more productive.

Interesting. I'm reminded, as you share that story, that when I'm working with people on performance and people management, that curiosity is a really immediate access to a breakthrough in, in the things that. In the interactions that are unproductive. So, like, in performance, we've got somebody whose performance personally or with another is off, and they immediately go into right, wrong, good, bad, kind of a morality conversation. And it gets emotionally charged and either they're beating up on themselves or beating up on someone else and they're getting defensive and it all is going off. And nowhere in there is any forensic consideration of and rooted in curiosity about why is the performance off and where did it go off? Because we're, we're so like, you did this or you didn't do that, and, and that could be in the mirror as well. You did this and you're such a bad person, you should try harder next time. And none of that makes any difference, but is so, so automatic, I think. And that seems always the immediate shift is just get curious about what, why you did what you did or why they did what they did. If you look with them or look in the mirror and ask yourself, huh, why did you drop the ball on that? That's a totally different conversation.

Yeah. I mean, some. Something could have happened at home that you have no idea what happened to them that morning, you know? Yeah. You know, there's this. I wish I could articulate it well, but there's this graphic I saw where it's a. It's a line of, you know, somebody's life, and it says how much you know about really what's going on. And it's like a quarter, you know, A quarter of that line. Yeah. And. And there might be, you know, there might be really valid reasons and there might not be. And you want to know why, what, what the resistance is, what's really going on. And again, what you're saying is pause. Let's, let's explore, let's see what's really going on. Getting to the crux of the issue or the situation. What are all the variables at play? And if we could all just take the time to do that, we would really find and be enlightened and it would really illuminate a path that's really possible to take.

So let's talk about the team. You worked with an engineering team, and they saw and noticed the connection between curiosity and empathy. I spent some time recently doing strengths work and I was sharing, reviewing with my mentor. I'm like, I have empathy really low in my Gallup CliftonStrengths. And why is that? Because I feel like I really can be highly empathetic. And in my former mentor said to me, said, no, no, no, you don't have empathy at all. My friend, he said, he said, by empathy in that world, what we mean is somebody who just walks in the room and they instantly sense where everyone's at. They feel it, they know it, like in a blank. You have to figure it out. And you can be empathetic. But that's not different than this notion. Like, I have to cultivate it. And my access is curiosity. Like, hey, what's going on with them? But some people just see it and go, oh, wow, they're, they're like off right now or they're upset or they're asleep or like, whatever.

Yeah, so you. Yeah, so. So Bill, you're super goal oriented and, and you like to drive. And our drivers don't really want to queue in to what's coming, what's going on in the room and how things are landing. So this is when we talk about emotional intelligence. Emotional intelligence is about tuning in. Like, how is this really landing with people? What's really going on here? And you know, for. When I work with sales folks, we talk about the three pillars to client centricity is curiosity, empathy, and managing our cognitive biases. Because we have to really understand what's going on with our client. We're perspective seeking, not just taking and aligning agendas, because if we don't, we're not going to get the sale. And in terms of the engineering team, they really wanted to model curiosity in a way that said, you know, I've got your back. Go experiment, go a challenge. And I want to be less directive. I want to tune in where I can coach and develop. And it was through our work together that it was, it was one of the, the leaders he's like, wow, I just learned that as a boss, I really need to be approachable and I need to connect with my teammates, especially because Covid was going on. It was kind of all fresh, and people were, like, swimming in uncertainty, and he had to be. He had to have a lot of con. A lot more communication in terms of hearing how people were actually feeling. And I know people are like, oh, well, we're not supposed to be talking about our feelings. Well, when we're in a crisis, yes, we are, because that gives us a gauge of where people are and how we might be able to help them and connect with them. And again, so he was using his curiosity to engage with, like, checking in with people, like, where. How are you really?

Yeah.

You know, here. Fine. So the next question is, how are you feeling really? You know, because that's. That's. That's like, not. Not really. You're not really fine, you know, and so for somebody like you, Bill, you would probably like, okay, great, let's move on.

Yes.

That's your opportunity.

I might. I might.

Then, I'm sorry, when you go, hey, well, what. No, what's really going on? I am actually interested to hear, because when you just say, you know, when you just keep going, it says people. Then people are like, oh, you're not really connecting with me. How. How then are those people really going to follow you? Are they going to trust you?

Probably not, no. But. But I have more than a couple people like me in my world who are all about getting started, taking charge, and driving a particular outcome. We seize on some goal, we're pushing towards it, and you'll say, fine. We'll say, how are you? And you'll say, fine. I'm like, okay, good enough. Unless you stop and say, stop, I need your attention. Look at me. I'm not okay. Like, you give one little nod, and I, I. I'm speaking really for myself, but I know there's a lot of people like me in our audience.

Yeah. And. And now what. What we're seeing so much more of is the. So the drivers are awesome. We. We need the drivers. Because you. You. You connect things that some other folks can't see. You have a vision. You see how to get there. And then with the, with the hard drive and not tuning in, you're not really bringing people along.

Yes, yes. So it's a smaller thing you can do if you are by yourself than if you have a whole team with you. Right.

So you're in that scenario. I like to say, say, you're the what and the why and they're the how. How are you empowering them to do the how? How are you connecting the how to your what and why? How are you, you know, how has it? How is it? You know, how. How are people understanding, like what they do matters to that, to what you're seeing. And, and people tend to gloss over that. That's actually really important. It's really important because then. Because then people become disengaged, de energized, and then they'll leave. So we have high turnover going on right now for that very reason.

Yeah. And why do people leave? They're like, my boss isn't listening. The organization doesn't care. Something big just happened. I'm reassessing my whole life, my work balance, my role, my life's purpose. And you're like, just chugging away and like, get back to the office, like, yeah, I don't know. I figured out how to not do that. Yeah, it's a balance. Right. You have to figure out how to get done what you want to get done. But work with people in new ways. Because people are reconsidering things.

Yeah, absolutely. Because they can there. I mean, they can make decisions, they're feeling much. I think Covid has brought an empowerment and a realization that there doesn't. You don't have to toil a certain way anymore. And I think we have to honor and respect that and figure out how to leverage that. So, you know, I. A lot of my training is virtual now and I can do more of it. I can scale it. It's really actually been a benefit. Do I miss the in person energy and group energy interaction? Absolutely. And at the same time, am I meeting people where they're at and what they need in the forum that they want to interact with me? Yes.

Yeah. You know, it's a mixture of all of those things, Right. That we do. Like our ton of our work now has moved online and we got better cameras and lighting and microphones and things like that and created online tools and we can do amazing things. But one of my teams I'm meeting with in a couple weeks, we'll meet virtually, but I just met with them in their office in the Midwest a couple weeks before. So it's a mixture of those things. Some of our teams are working all remotely, but then we'll gather at a winery or some other place and spend a couple days doing planning and strategic thinking and that kind of thing. Right. So that kind of mix of stuff. What I like that I'm hearing in your message here is that, is this notion of that we all have some areas or aptitude for curiosity, but it is something to practice, to develop over time, to cultivate. There are places where I notice that I'm naturally curious and others where I'm completely arrogant, think I know everything and it's not even conscious in either case, right. Until I stop, pause and notice it a little bit, bring some mindfulness to it. Like, oh, I could cultivate like that empathy conversation. Like, I may not naturally be empathetic, but I can cultivate an extraordinary amount of empathy with a little intentionality.

Yeah. The research shows it's self directed, so. And the research shows it's insane in each one of us. So we do choose to be curious. It is self directed. It does take intentionality. It does take effort and energy. So all of this in my research and you know, and the practice is coming back to the practice. We're all going to fall off. And so just having that awareness. Bill. Right. Oh man, I didn't, I didn't practice at that time. And then going in the next time with these folks, like setting it, setting intention before, I mean really easy. I do this with all the executives I work with is can you set an intention before you go into meeting of how, how you really want to show up and what you're in service of? Just getting the practice of that to.

To connect that for, for our audience. There are lots of things we know how to do and we do them regularly and they have benefit for us. We know how to brush our teeth, we know how to wash our bodies, we know how to take our vitamins or whatever, and we do them regularly. And then there are other things that we know how to do and we may or may not do them. You may or may not ride your bike regularly. You know how to take a hike or a walk or whatever. You may or may not do that, but the benefit doesn't come necessarily from knowing how to do it, but actually doing it right. It's brilliant. I know how to ride my bike. As long as it sits there in the shed, it's not doing me anymore good or giving me the enjoyment like the curiosity. But I know how to be curious isn't really helpful until I practice curiosity. I have a reminder, an appointment or whatever for it. Like other things in my life to exercise, to meditate, to be grateful, those kinds of things. I actually have to have some structure reminder. And maybe some of you don't, but like I have an actual gratitude appointment in my Calendar, because I won't think of doing it.

That's fantastic.

In our agenda for curiosity, for asking questions. Because I will charge ahead knowing what do I want to accomplish and knowing where I want to go and unconsciously assuming I already know everything.

Yeah. So you're saying it takes intention and attention, like both those things.

Attention, right. And I have to stop and actually do it for a lot of these things.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Oh, so much more to do. This is rich and it's funny because it's so fundamental. It's really rich and deep and yet it's. It's pretty basic, you know, like it's useful to be curious. Unless you're George, maybe. And then you should be careful where you go. Sorry, reference to Curious George.

Oh, I see. Yes.

So I suppose curiosity can get you in trouble sometimes, but for the vast majority of the time, it's a pretty useful thing to cultivate. The website and where to go is Dr. Allison H. Dr. Allison Horsemeyer. I will put it there in the crawl on the screen. We'll put it in the show notes as well. Dr. Allison H. If you want to go, she'll do a consultation with you and you can see if you have a little fit there, if that's a useful coaching kind of person for you. So there's the link in that and in the show notes. I want to remind everybody our shows come every week. So we've got hundreds of shows with people like Allison and others, all on all areas of getting your strategy right, working with people better, becoming a better leader, dialing in your execution, even managing your cash better, all that. More@scalingcoach.com if you want to send us a note, ask us for a resource, that kind of thing info. ScalingCoach.com is a good email to do that. So thanks again everyone for listening for watching. I want to give big thanks to Lucy Summers getting our show ready behind the scenes, producing everything, show scheduled, guest ready, shows out the door. And to the folks at Podfly Productions who produce our show, sweeten up the audio, get it all out on itunes, Spotify, Stitcher, etc, all the other places that it goes. You can find the video versions of our shows on LinkedIn, YouTube and that kind of thing. Alby Burge, ein, Kadina, Tim McGowan, all over at Podfly Productions and a Vern Harnish, authority and creator of the Scaling up framework. Thanks again everyone for listening for watching. We'll talk to you again next time. Thanks. Bye bye. Keep Scaling Up. Are you ready to turn your goals into daily wins. You should check out our Scoreboard software. Powered by Align, it's the official software for scaling up. With Scoreboard, you'll get an AI driven coach for priorities and KPIs and it'll help keep your team focused on what matters most. With Align, you can track your goals in real time and you'll even see results on the go. With their mobile app, you can rest easy knowing that Align has world class onboarding and support to set your team up for success. This is really more than just software, it's what I actually use to manage growth in our scaling up client teams. Unlock clarity and results with Scoreboard by Aligned. To try it now, go to aligntoday.com Bill G One more time. Aligntoday.com Bill G that's aligntoday.com Bill G Check it out and try it now.