314: John Robertson — How to Leverage Crisis

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There we are live again. I got my coffee and we've got John Robertson in the house.

Hi, how are you?

Hey everybody. My name is Bill Gallagher, Scaling Coach, host of the Scaling Up Business Podcast. We bring our show to you every week with great guests to talk about all things to do with scaling, growing your business, the leadership required to get you there, all the things to do with your people, the strategy, execution, optimizing the cash in the business and enjoying the ride. You'll find our hundreds and hundreds of shows@scalingcoach.com or wherever you're listening now. ITunes, YouTube, Spotify, Stitcher, wherever, all that and more. Scalingcoach.com and of course, Scaling Up Business podcast. So, John Robertson joining us. John, where are you today?

I'm actually in Ottawa, Ontari Canada.

Oh, well, we won't hold that against.

You and I'm very, very grateful for that. And to be a Canadian. Sorry.

Aren'T you supposed to say sorry?

Sorry. Sorry.

So. And we won't even organize a truck or convoy.

Yeah, don't even, don't even open up that Pandora's box.

So for our listeners, John Robertson is a workforce wellness exper, cultural alignment specialist. He works with leaders to develop great workplaces with engaged people to help you deal with all of that. So we're going to get into some of that and more on our show today. John, welcome to the show again.

I'm truly grateful to be here. Thank you.

Yeah. So let's talk about this. Well, before we get into this, let's talk a little bit about your background. How do you get to be an expert in this area? What did you do? How did you arrive here? What's the path that led you to this?

The simplest way to identify the path that I took to get here is a really simple one. Our family Is more like Griswolds than Hallmark. And if you're not old enough to know what I mean by Griswolds, go Google Chevy Chase and some of his movies. Because our life is, to quote you, is one big ride. And many people actually we've actually had people say John, when are you guys taking your holidays? This summer. So we give the weeks and I well, why? Well, we just need to know which weeks we're not going to take ours on because you know, the weather, everything's going to go south. So we used to live.

Do you have a. Do you have a brother in law living in your driveway?

Yeah, not yet. But it's no, actually the sad part, not tragic sad, but the ironic is I actually have a great brother in law and he is one of those guys that you love to hate. He fixes everything like he can figure almost anything out. Mechanic. It's quite annoying actually. But so I got started in this work because where we used to live there would be it was in the Maritimes down eastern Canada and so there would be fishing events where the longliner with the boat, fishing boat did not come back. And helping people process. And one of the things that always, always drive me nuts is why do we make people seem something's wrong if they admit they're stressed because something ugly just happened. So if you have a motor vehicle collision. True story. If you have a motor vehicle collision and you collide with a deer or the deer collides with you, depends on your vantage point the next time you're driving down a road just like the one that you hit the deer and you collided on. Why do we make it a big deal if that bothers a person like a normal person should be mindful of it. We've got a bigger problem if. Well, no, that's not. Doesn't bother me. And they just drive on through because that means they're not going to learn. And so what sorry mean pretending like.

Things don't get to you is the problem.

Great way. And I was raised in the old sports model where the coach and the leader, the encouragement model where when we got a charley horse, the coach would do the skate it off, walk it off, you're fine, it doesn't hurt. And how does that help? And so what I got realized is there's got to be a better way than playing Whack a Mole or Groundhog Day, doing the same things over and over, hoping for different results.

You know, it's interesting to me. So on the one hand, like we Want to dismiss some old ways of thinking like that, like the. The coach who says, just do nothing, like, pretend it didn't happen, that kind of thing. And leaders who will say, you know, disregard the setback or whatever, which isn't really consistent with the mindfulness, except I think there's something that miss and that to honor there, which is they're like, don't be stopped. And what they missed is have your experience, like, grieve, you know, express the pain, the upset. Like, but. But I think the don't be stopped aspect is valuable after you've paused or whatever it is to, you know.

So what you perfectly described is where I started approaching things from. When we are playing a game we love and we get a charlie horse, we will find a way to get back in our game. Yeah. If I am playing a game I do not love, any injury will take me out.

Yeah.

So think about that in the terms of work.

If you love what you're doing, you're not stopped by the setback, probably for very long.

Right.

You get back into it if you really love it.

And having worked with some military personnel, that's one of the biggest struggles I have. People don't understand, well, why do you want to go back into theater? Like, why do you want to get back with your people? Well, because that's the world I know. That's what I love doing. And so the term that I developed in the U.S. the Marines have the semper fi. It's called the semper fidelis. And semper meaning always. And fidelis is the same root word as fidelity or faithfulness or loyalty. So the term that. That I discovered by working with people in organizations is really simple. Passio, fidelis. And passio is the root word of passion. So, you know, I've working with one person, one in a leadership role. What started to happen was he did really well in his career, but he realized, I'm not getting up in the morning thinking, oh, this is awesome. I get to go to work. So every. Everything that happened became one more stone in the shoe.

Yeah.

And so he and I started meeting, and he reached out. However it happened, he did the. Yeah, I'm not even sure I feel like walking right now is where we started. Yeah. And, you know, there was another woman that was doing some interviews, and she would ask some questions about people's expectations, including, well, why do you want to work here? And it's not rocket science. I like to call it rocket surgery, the cross between brain science and rockets and rock. Anyways, brain surgery and rocket science. But if I don't know how. If you're hiring Bill, and I don't know how to describe to you, why do I want to play on your team, on your field or on your ball. That.

Yeah.

Then I haven't spent a lot of background work to clarify, okay, what's my passion. And so whether it be people, whether it be strategy, or whether it be execution, quoting this wise manner heard, then one of the things that happens is we can end up being caught with all the, if you will, all the chess pieces in place, but nothing's really moving forward and the players aren't moving. So all of that background to say that when I. We moved to a place in northern Ontario, and small town rules where, you know, it's not what you know, it's who you know. And I got a call from the chief of staff at the hospital, and he said, hey, I'm getting nurses that are hugely getting walloped. And I'm not going to describe the details, but it was a horrific motor vehicle collision. And he said, I need you to come and talk to them. About what? Well, John is 20 minutes from your house to the hospital. That gives you 19 to figure that out. Click. And. And I don't know if you've ever lived in a small town, but when you get a call from that family, whoever it is, you either do what they recommend, suggest or tell, or you're moving. And he was one of those people. And it's like, you know what? I really, really enjoy this passion. I really love helping people find their footing when life takes the feet out from under them. And number one quality that happens around this, in this context is leadership. Because if. And we're not talking about leaders that are going to join hands and sing Kumbaya and how you feeling? Like, that's not what I'm talking about. But telling them to walk it off doesn't hurt. That doesn't help either. And it's that.

So tell us about the nurses, what you do. Where'd you go? How'd it go? What'd you talk about?

I ended up meeting with them in the back part of the ER emergency room.

And.

And they started talking with me about some of the stuff that they were thinking and feeling. And completely the best way to describe it is they felt like they were drinking out of a fire hose. And so we started walking through it. And then what I ended up doing was just asking. So just curious, why is that negative reaction to what you need to be dealing with right now, why is that a problem? I'm not in your field. Treat me like I'm brain dead. Help me to understand. Why is that a problem? I would expect it. If you're dealing with children, including adults, in a motor vehicle collision, why wouldn't I expect that to bother you? Reframe the discussion instead of making. Because a lot of times, whether it be crisis, mental health, resilience, thriving. Well, whatever we want to call that point, a lot of times it gets described, Bill, as treating sick or ill instead of, so what are we doing to keep people healthy and in the game? And then we started walking through. So what kinds of things do you do to normally care for yourself? And I always throw in dark humor, G rated. What kinds of things do you do to care for yourself? And then we plan to follow up in about a week or two weeks. And long story short, there was only one person that needed additional supports. And ironically. Not ironically, that's not even the right word. But this person had a whole bunch of other things going on in their life.

Yeah.

Okay, well. And, and so out of that has come the visual of, I don't know, your age group. I'm not asking you, but there's a term called sandwich generation. Children still at home, parents requiring more attention, and the demands of work are increasing.

Yes.

Okay. So treat those things like dome lights. It's not a judgment. I have aging parents. Personally, I have aging parents. We have three children. My wife says she has four, but together we have three. And, and one of the things that their dome lights, I love them, but they drain the battery. So what are we doing for ourselves to charge it? Because, you know, like a cell phone, putting it on airplane mode will not charge our battery. Why do we think unplugging from work airplane mode. Why do we think unplugging from work will charge our battery? And so one of the biggest hurdles that happens, and I numerous examples, but one of them is, so, for example, there's one organization I'm working with, it's a first responder and they can't get staff because they are actually caught where if they have a large event or a bigger event, they don't have enough people. And, and, and so what's not having.

People is a, is like a thing that everybody's dealing with these days, right?

Absolutely. Everywhere you drive. Hiring now. Hiring now. Hiring now. But part of it has to come back to hiring the right people. So, for example, one of the questions that I repeat over and over and over again, how do you want people to Describe you in a non physical way because that's the leadership through crisis.

Or change, not your physical visual presentation. How do you want to be described? Right?

And not the letters after your name.

Not your title, your role, that kind of thing.

And, and you know, I'm a coward. So I asked my kids and they were teenagers at the, and by the way, the best people to ask for an honest answer are teenagers. And if you don't have one, go borrow one and give them permission to be honest. And I was driving so I didn't have to see them. And I said, how would you describe your dad in a non physical way or daughter, I know you love your job, son. I know that you love what you do. Other son, I know that you love your work. Anything else? I heard nothing but crickets behind me and my wife in the passenger seat while I was driving. She not only threw me under the bus, she was driving the bus. She said, and are there any other questions you need to ask us right now? But for me that was my turning point because I don't want my kids to say only that dad loved his job and not be able to say anything else. For me, that's a failure. So you know, and I, I would do this to you in, in this context if, unless you're willing. But how would, how do you bill. Like people to describe you non physically. And, and that's a values based question because values are the things that always leak out when organizations are in hot water. I call it the hot water teabag principle.

So you know, I think that when I was first thought about that and asked that question, at least, you know, in somewhat more recent times that I can remember, it was in the end of 2001 and if I had to describe myself like who are you beyond the title, that kind of thing, I'm like, oh, I'm smart and I'm articulate and those are probably the leading things I might have said. I'm a leader. Smart, articulate and a leader. We had a couple companies and that kind of thing. And yet that wasn't what made me proud. And I, you know, I, I am smart not to, to be obnoxious, but, and I, and I am pretty articulate. It doesn't take me long to figure out how, what to say or to express an idea, that kind of thing. Not afraid to do that. The things that I then learned missing over time was like fun and creative and learning and growing. And then really if I thought about the most important thing, I had to think about my kids And I had to think about my parents and in particular my grandmother on my dad's side and what I would have wanted them to say about me or want them to always be able to say about. And then, you know, my closest friends. But the people that I love and care the most about even beyond the work. Friends. And I really wanted just then to say that I was generous, that I was somebody who was a contribution to people. And if the. My life ended and people gathered and they said that about me, I did a good job.

And. And that's where one of the things that we were emailing about was leveraging a crisis. That's one of the keys to leverage change.

Yeah.

Because most people don't think about how they want to finish and what it means to finish well or be successful in what the word success really means. Not the one with the most toys. And I mean there. Is there anything sadder? And I have been involved with it. Is there anything sadder than being at a funeral where there are six people there? And I'm not talking about the 90 year old where all their friends are gone. I'm talking about a younger person where nobody noticed. And I remember there was a. So some of my work over the years has been involved in doing things like death notifications and job terminations. And I was raised in two cultures. One a strong Scottish one that said if you're gonna cry, I'll bloody well give you something to cry about.

And.

And then can't do that.

That on your own time.

Exactly. And. And you know, and I'm doing this because I love you and this hurts me more than hurts you. But. But the second thing that I learned was in one of my degrees was in psych psychology and in counseling. We were indoctrinated with that. Don't show emotions like be professional. Veneer.

Yeah.

One of the biggest lessons that I've learned over the years is sometimes those moments are so powerful that the worst thing in the world to do is say something. And sometimes the most powerful thing to do is show an emotion. And. And you know, I've been like death notification with a woman whose 20 year old son. They just moved from a country where the husband and father was killed, murdered. And they came to the country and it was a dry country so that he didn't know how to swim. And the sun drowned at a nearby river.

Yeah.

And I also know met with people who literally sold their souls for the workplace that they were in. It was one of those cultures that if you give me an inch I'm gonna take a mile. And then all of a sudden, the company just imploded, and they were unemployed, and their heartache was literally a tsunami. My heart just ate from. Because they had traded so much for that company.

Yeah.

It's interesting, that whole crisis. I love, actually, the word crisis, or I've come to love the word crisis, but it typically represents or is known to be like a negative emergency. Right. A crisis. If you look back to the root of the word, it's a turning point. And your response to a crisis creates the turning point into something that's either disastrous or something that's victorious. And every character in every story and everything encounters a crisis or more. And then the way that they engage it and lean into it and embrace the crisis is what determines, you know, how things go for them.

And. And so when I'm. When I'm talking with leaders, I call that the refiners river, because on one side of the river, we can be a really good person. We can be ethical. We can honor generic terms. We can honor the ten commandments. We are a good person.

Yeah.

When we grow through the river of refiners river. So whether that be a river of fear, river of crisis, river of change, whatever, on the other side, we become that kind of person that even sometimes people don't like us, but they respect us, they trust us, and, you know, let's do this. Let's. Let's go for it, Bill. Because I've seen that you are no longer just a good person. You are. And I know it's Jim Collins, but you have gone from good to great. But that great leadership has the characteristics, has the chemistry, has the courage, has the convictions that I'm going to spend less time looking side to side, and I'm going to stay focused on my goal. That was something I learned from an equestrian person. Why I could never understand why they put those things. I call them blinders, but on horses. And Blake walked me through it, and it was like, wow, Maybe as humans, once in a while, not don't. Not to ignore people, but once in a while, we're so focused on everything peripheral that we're not focused.

Yeah. You know, I. There's definitely something to that. Right.

And.

And so some of us turn off our notifications and we focus and that kind of thing. And others of us, our brains are just wired a little bit different. And so, like, if I need to get focused, I'll put on loud, rhythmic music.

Oh, really?

And people have different things like that.

Yeah.

I'm super adhd and I can look out the window and get distracted by things here and there and, you know, squirrel. And so loud music drowns out a lot of things. Like, if I need to crank through a bunch of stuff and really stay focused, I can put on loud rhythmic music and just kind of let it go. And then just like, crank away at that thing, and it's kind of like sensory blinders. It blocks out some of the other stimulus. It keeps this sort of backbeat going. And then my work is with. Within the. Within the rhythm of the song.

And Bill, what you have just perfectly articulated is one of the biggest areas when we're talking about people and execution. As a leader, I have to know what my wiring is, because if. If we did that approach to other people, I know.

They go crazy. Yeah. And I know certain of our teams and groups. So an entrepreneurial group of founder types will do well with that kind of thing because there's a high amount of adhd. A lot of our professional manager groups are really irritated by that. They're like, turn that down. Professional CEOs from a more corporate background will also not respond well to that. Right. They need a different approach. I know speakers and trainers who are like, I got here at 7 in the morning. I'm creating the space. I'm like, oh, my God, if I did that, I would resent the F out of everyone in the room for the rest of the day. Drives me crazy. Let's get somebody else to pay attention to the space. I'm gonna go do some things for me. I'm gonna take a great shower. I'm gonna eat a great breakfast. I'm gonna listen to some music that makes me happy. I'm gonna feel really well taken care of. I'm gonna rest well. I'm gonna have a great dinner the night before. I'm a lot focused about me because when I walk in the room, I'm gonna be super generous. But I'm not gonna start at six in, like, no, I'm creating abundance. I'm filling up, like, my tank so that I'm ready to go give later.

And what you describing right there is some of the ways that leaders have to be very intentional to say, okay, if I'm not going to unplug and I'm not going to adopt whatever Billy Bob or Susie Q's model to being head in the game prepared.

That's right. Because the one that works for them. And I know people that take that other approach and it really works for them. And God bless them, like that's, that's what they should do, just not me.

And I learned that, we learned that years and years ago, disciplining our kids because we have three different temperaments. And one, you send them to the room and time out, or whatever we're supposed to call that. And after an hour we would say, okay, you can come down now. And the answer was always basically, do I have to? Yeah, okay, this isn't working. And, and the other one, it was a two story house. The other one, if he got to the top stair, if I, we had to beat him 400 times, he wouldn't have been as distraught as sending him to his room by himself.

Yeah, we don't recommend beating kids anymore.

No, I, I, I've, I've heard that. But, but, but it's that, that's a great point, Bill. Nobody listening to this or watching this. Please don't misinterpret what I just said as we did that. But his reactions and, and it's not a gender issue. It's a personality quality. It's how I would say, how God put us together.

Yeah.

And key in that is what am I doing that will charge me in a way that I can best serve others. Yeah.

I think that's the thing is like, what do you need and what's going to take care of you so that you can be. Well, how do you need to process the crisis, the emergency, that kind of thing. And then also you talked about what are the qualities that you want to be remembered for that kind of thing. I think sometimes you have to apply that and it sounded like you were doing that to the particular situation. There's some challenges or crises that you do not want that you weren't asking for that. And you got to figure out how to deal with it and who you want to be or what you want to say about yourself when it's all said and done.

And I don't know if you remember the fable Emperor's New Clothes, but I, this woman came to me and I was doing some work with one group and she said, you know, John, do you know what your problem is? And I said, no, I know I have many white problems, but which one do you think is my problem? And she said, you're the little boy in the emperor's New Clothes. And I said, thank you. No, no, no, I didn't mean that as a compliment. And I said, well, actually it was a compliment for me because that's exactly who I want to be. I want to be the kind of person that Loved others enough to say, can you help me understand what I'm seeing? And, and so with a leader, you know, is, do I want to be the kind of leader that everybody likes positive thoughts about, you know, and warm and fuzzy, or do I want to be the kind of person that is. There, is of service, is trustworthy, respect, respectful and respected. Because at some point those two collide. Being liked and loved by everybody or being trusted and respected can sometimes collide.

Often collide.

Right, okay, often, yes. And, and so crisis is that defining moment where I either, we either bounce back and, and to be fair, I have had to have those conversations with, well, one leader that comes to mind. And it was a community leader in a small business, very, very, very well known. And there was an. An issue, a concern, a problem, and everybody knew what the problem was. Let's just call the problem John. It was the behavior of John, not. Not the person. Because I don't ever believe that you can blame it on a person, however, the behavior of a person. Absolutely. And everybody knew that John's behavior was a huge stick in the spokes. Every time they wanted to go somewhere, something happened. And long story short, we spent probably a month, maybe five weeks helping him understand kind of the values, difference behaviors, the manifestations. And at some point he needed to fish or get off the pot. And when that point came, he didn't want to do it. And it's like, okay, there's nothing I can do that, because I can't do that for you.

Yeah, yeah, there's definitely, like, you have to choose something. But, and, and in. At some point, I hear, like, it important to choose to stay in and embrace or get out, let go.

And, and to focus around the passion means to choose what we are for. Because when we choose what we are against or we don't choose and we live by what we're against, it actually becomes like the horse without the blinders. Because there's always something we can react to that we're against, that we don't like. Whatever. To choose what we are for means that, yeah, you know what? There will be things that we don't like. But I'm not focused on fixing what I don't like. And the best prayer that I teach everybody is the Aanaga Prayer, Alcoholics Anonymous, Narcotics Anonymous, Gamblers Anonymous, and it's called the Serenity Prayer. To change what I can, to accept what I cannot, and the wisdom to know the difference.

Yeah, it's interesting. To change what I can, to accept what I cannot. Right. So a Lot of times we go out complaining about the events of life, which is a little like complaining about the rain.

Absolutely.

You know, like, does the rain care? How is that working for you about your grousing? It just keeps raining as long as it feels like raining. And no matter what you say or do about it, you know, sometimes you might be grateful for the rain because you're living a freaking drought like we are right now. Other times, it's ruining your wedding plans or. Or whatever else. But it is a little true. Like, oh, this stock market right now is, you know, giving me this kind of thing. You know, I was really upset back in the early 2000s when the DOT com bubble was over and I couldn't raise money to fund and grow my business. And it led me to abandon something I thought for a while, it turned out forever, and then work with my wife. And, you know, maybe I made less money on that than I might have otherwise, but I got 11 years working with my wife, and we got to raise our family together in a coordinated, partnered fashion. Right. Like, that's beautiful.

And the other perk that you haven't mentioned is you probably got to complement one another. Not the pli. But the ple. Compliment. You complete me. Because when we have to be focused on something, we have to be aligned as a team. Yeah. And I can guarantee you without. I don't want to get into a personal if you're not comfortable, but I can guarantee you that you and your wife would have had more quality time going through that valley of chaos than many couples have their entire married life. And it may not feel all warm and fuzzy in the middle of the valley. Valley don't.

There's ups and downs, but how you encounter them, how you address them, how you lean into them, I think is really, really useful. What do you want to be remembered for? What matters to you about this time? What's the. What's that story that you're. That you're writing about it? So we've been talking a lot about individuals, and I'm curious. It's not really prep, but when you balance individual conversations, individual choices and behaviors and motivations, values with the group, what are you doing in reinforcing on a cultural level to translate this for us into the group dynamic?

In a group dynamic, the leader sets the bar height, the watermark. They're the ones who say, okay, here's our motivational preferences, our values, and what starts to come out of that is. And here's how I see you completing the team. Here's how I see you. And so helping people see their roles, and what that does is instead of doing a program on communicating, on team building and everything else, they're actually allowing each individual to share their encouragement because their same motivation, same focus, by the way, did you think about tackling it from this angle? Son of a gun. Never thought of it. Great idea. And intelligence is to learn from our mistakes. Wisdom is to learn from other people's. And one of the things that, in a corporate group context, one of the things that always happens is people get to ask questions. So for example, in. In a small business I'm working with, they were kept hitting what's called the glass ceiling in business. They would grow to a certain point and then erode, grow. And so he and I started chatting about his values, his focus, what he's prioritizing. And then we started to talk about the business and some of the leaders. And as soon as I asked him. So just curious, are you just on. Based on what you just described, base level, do you see an alignment? Huh? No. No. As a matter of fact, we're both rolling on opposite sides of the boat in opposite directions. And. And he went on and on with that visual. But built to your comment with values, I clarify football is the analogy I use. There's American football, Canadian football, Australian football, European football. Everybody's talking about football. But as somebody pointed out to me just a couple days ago, they don't even use the same balls. John. Touche. I wasn't even thinking about that. And. And so what happens in the workplace is what are. What's motivating us here? Because if we get a paycheck player, if there's no money, Anna, then that's the limit of their engagement. Yeah, yeah. And so. And I've also seen organizations where leaders have said, well, we got to the point where she actually said, you know what? Doing this work, I've actually come to a place where this isn't the best place for me. And I love Jim Collins Good to great. The Social Sector one, because it's a short monograph chapter book. But he talks about is organizations have to be a place where people fit and flourish or they get expunged like a virus. And man, oh man is, you know, I'm not a gardener for those. I don't know if you are, Bill, but I was free labor in the home that I grew up in. And I still remember on the bottom of a tomato plant, there's those little things you got to pull off. And. And I still remember what they're Called suckers. And you know what happens in this discussion in an organizational context, if leadership does not grow the positive, strengthen the direction, then what will happen is they'll be spending all their time dealing with suckers. As the quickest way that I, if you and I are playing golf, the quickest way I can beat a person at golf, and I'm not a great golfer, is if I can get in their heads and get them distracted from playing their game. I'm a terrorist like that with my boys. When we go golfing, I'm the one that, geez, guys, I hope you drive this ball a mile down the fairway. I hope you go as straight as an arrow. I hope you don't hit that water off to the left. Because if I can get in their heads, I can beat them. Huh? If I can't get, get messing with them now, they do the same thing to me. I choke. I am pathetic. If I am teeing off and there's people standing around. Like, if there's a group waiting, I can pick up my golf ball and throw it farther than I can hit it with my club. Like, I just choke when I get a bunch of people watching me at the tee. So my boys, now, they'll invite people, hey, come on. And watch my dad tee off. It's like, okay, now they're in my head. But, yeah, I didn't want to do a squirrel on you, but I, I, that's key in an organizational context. Yeah. Because I work with first nations indigenous communities and different cultures, and one of the first things we talk about is, well, we need to instill our values. Great. Why are they.

Yeah.

And, and that's key.

Well, I hear some great ideas, so recapping a little bit for our listeners. You face lots of challenges up and down moments in life, and it's, it's leaning into them, understanding and embracing that they may be upsetting, that they may be that you may not like them. But then finding your motivation. Who do you want to be? What do you want to say about yourself in dealing them with them goes to the values, the purpose of the organization. This is a thing that, that our regular listeners will know and love and, and you talked about then as a leader, leading from the front, setting the example, setting the tone or the, the level for others to rise up to, and honoring and embracing all of that, but then recognizing the people that shouldn't be there, that don't belong, the suckers on the tomato plant, the whatever that, that really need to go for both for them and for the organization and that helps to build a great culture. I think those are some awesome useful takeaways and reminders for folks run toward the Roar, right? Is the website.

Yes. Yeah, that's the book one that walks through the Pasio Fidelis. Yes. And it's run aboard the Roar online.

And fortlog co is John Robertson. So if you want to get more information about John and his work and programs and that kind of thing, you'll find all that there. I want to thank Wanda Mitchell for producing our show, getting our guests ready and that kind of thing in the background. And give a big shout out to Verne Harnish, author and creator of our Scaling Up Framework and the original Rockefeller Habits, all our shows and more you'll find@scalingcoach.com if we can help you find a coach in your area or who fits your particular challenge or need. We've got about 230 coaches now around the world helping companies grow and scale. And then of course there are other folks who work on other aspects like culture and leadership and that kind of thing that you'll find as well. So if we can help you find any of that, go to scalingcoach.com or go send us an email to info@scalingcoach with any feedback about the show. Thanks again John for joining us on the show.

Thank you Bill. And also I want to thank Wanda who quarterbacked a lot of things behind the scenes. So thank you.

Wanda got us ready. Thanks to the folks at Podfly Productions who produce our show every week. Albie burge, Anacudina to McGowan, all that and more. Thanks again everyone for for watching, for listening. Keep Scaling Up. We'll talk to you again next time. Bye bye.

Thanks Bill.

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