Lori Michele Leavitt — The Pivot Catalyst

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Hey everybody, it's Bill Gallagher. We are talking with the Pivot Catalyst today. We're talking about pivoting, about adapting to things and then leading the way. My name is Bill Gallagher, Scaling Coach, host of the Scaling Up Business Podcast. Our show comes to you every week. We talk with authors, business leaders, coaches, entrepreneurs and others about everything to do with growing, getting your people right, dialing in the strategy, executing and optimizing the cash, and along the way, everything that you need to be to be one of the leaders of an organization like that. You'll find our show and more at scalingcoach.com ScalingCoach.com is our website where we have past episodes, tools, downloads, information about our programs, things like that, all that and more@scalingcoach.com well, I want to welcome an old friend, Lori Michelle Leavitt to the program today. She's down in Mexico right now, but normally she's in the Seattle area in Bellingham, Washington. Laurie, welcome to the show.

Good to be here, Bill. It's good to see you.

Good to see you all. So, so Lori goes by Pivot Catalyst and she's got a lot of experience as a coach, as in the world of business growth and that kind of thing. She's going to talk to you about that. She's got a book out now, the Pivot Catalyst, and she's going to talk to us and share some of the stories and examples from that. So I'm so glad that you could join us. And indeed from great place down in Mexico where it's a little warmer probably than it is in Northern California where I am or your home in Washington.

Yes, I come here to write. I try to get here twice a year. There's something about seeing the ocean. That's all I see. They put me in a quiet room and I just hear the ocean, see the ocean. Even if I'm not getting out a lot during the day, it's very great for creativity.

That's a really good tip. I've been writing a thousand words every day for a little while now, but I did my writing right here in my office, around various places around my house. But sometimes getting to a place like that, free of distraction, you get a little bit more done than you might.

It's different. So I live in a beautiful place, too. And when I write from my home, when I'm just in my work setting, my writing is more instructive. And so that can come out of me, but the parts that need to come out, that are more getting to the heart, getting to that transformation just seemed to take this type of. For me, this type of space.

Nice. All right, so let's, if you would not mind, give our listeners a little bit more of your business background. Talk about the work, like, how did you get your start and what have you done? And how did you end up writing this book?

Absolutely, yeah. I'm often. Why the Pivot Catalyst? Why am I calling myself that? What I realized is through the years that I grew up with a financial background, so I helped organizations help leaders make decisions. It's really what I did. And most of those decisions had to do with some type of change or some type of transformation, whether it was early on and moving from everything that's manual to technology. And I'm dating myself. But that's. That's what I did when I first started in corporate. And it's. It's one of the things that I was seeing or hearing. I was hearing the word pivot a lot when I wrote my first book, the Pivot Orchestrating Extraordinary Business Momentum. That idea of why I really was compelled to write a book came to me in about 2013, and I hear so often the word pivot back then in startup circles that it's quick. And unless it's just you, and even if it is just you, the decision to pivot is quick. The awareness that you need to pivot is not quick. And the actual change from where you are now, from where you want to be, is not quick. And so there's orchestration involved. And that's what I help with. That's what I've helped with all my career. That's what I help with as the pivot catalyst, helping orchestrate that change and orchestrate a culture that can change more naturally without the leader always pushing.

I do love what you said there about the notion that it's quick, but there's actually a lot that leads up to it and a lot that takes time for it to sort of develop. And I am struck by that. Like there's pressures that build at some point that start to either slow something or push away from. And then there's a moment, there's a particular moment always of change. Right. Where a shift happens, a decision is made or something. And then there's a lot of work to develop to take advantage of that shift and to use it to accelerate. But there is kind of a moment of. For me, in working with leaders, it often occurs like a moment of choice or decision when we change course.

So segue into the second book pivot to clarity. And that is the key in I came up with six aligned momentum key indicators. I call aligned momentum that state when change is more natural. And I look at organizations to see when. Because oftentimes they don't stay in that state forever when they've been in that state and what's happened and what's happened when they weren't in that state. But one of the key elements is clarity. And you said there's that. Aha. In the leadership team. Well, yeah, that's only part of it. But you need to execute strategy and so you need to communicate that also. So part of it is getting clear for you and the other part is being clear for others. You now get it and you feel it. Hopefully you're inspired by it. How are you going to communicate that to others so that they see how they fit in their roles and actually help execute what's needed and they also.

Yeah. Then can get it. So let's share some of the stories. I think from the book is always a place I like to start you in preparing for the show, shared some of the stories with us and I think it's a good place to start. Of course you can add more, but the first company that you talked about I thought was kind of cool because I'm originally from Los Angeles. Van de Camps is a LA started company grew across or maybe even Wisconsin. But talk about that. Share that with us.

Yeah. So the person in this story was a new president of Van de Camp. His name's Dan Barnett. And one thing I chuckle about this story is. And one thing I look for in leaders is courage, the ability to be vulnerable. The ability you say you don't know, the ability to be curious. Well, he was brand new to the role and he didn't know. He's like, I'm just going to do whatever I can do to affect this. And so at the time when he stepped in, Van de Camp's was at about 11% market share, Gorton's was somewhere in the middle and Mrs. Paul's was at 28%. And within five years he had switched that. How, how do you do that? I mean, that is, that is a pivot. It's not a turnaround per se because they weren't going bankrupt or anything, but they absolutely shifted within the organization. But did Dan do it? Did Dan just stand up and command, hey, we're going to do this. Everybody come along. That's not how it works. And, and so Dan, first, he based what he was looking at, what would catalyze change, on research. So he did customer focused research as step one, you've got to go through discovery. You as a leader likely do not know entirely what is, what is now.

Yeah. And you have an idea where you want to go, how you are, how you're perceived by others, what's going on in the marketplace.

Yes. And what he found through his research is that people want fresh fish, even in frozen fish. And I don't know, Bill, I don't know how old you are. So I don't know if you remember the TV commercial with this woman pushing a shopping cart and there's this fish flying out of her cart. That was bandicamps and that was their branding for hey, we're fresh. And what he did was he just kept communicating that simple message, fresh to the different divisions and they would step up in the way they could affect it to align with that. And it created this transformation. For example, they. With one of the first, the flash freezing on the ship, like at ocean, that kept it fresher, things like that. But, but Dan didn't come up with that. He, he just said fresh and others came up with that. And that's, that's how this works.

Well, I'm pretty sure nobody wants the cheaper fish. I'll take the less fresh fish. Of all things you want, fresh fish is definitely very, very high on that list. I think it's interesting that honing in on that freshness was important and perhaps seeing a gap and that others were not perceived as fresh. Like, if you're going to be in a frozen environment or category, how do you be seen as fresh? It sounds by its very nature. Except we do know this idea of flash frozen or. And the idea that fish used to come in and then get frozen later versus immediately frozen fully on the boat versus just chilled is a concept that I think many people Are familiar with today.

This was a long time ago. Yeah, right.

And restaurants will even talk about that. Well, is that fish fresh? They'll be like, well, it's fresh frozen. And that often sounded like an oxymoron to me.

Fresh frozen, absolutely. And what's important in this story is and why I mentioned curiosity and courage at the beginning. And he also had to be tenacious because, I mean, it took five years. Right. He had to continuously communicate and I'm sure it didn't go entirely smoothly. I know most of his story, and I know Dan, is that he created a safe place with how he was being. When you as a leader are showing up with curiosity about here's thinking fresh, what would you do? And you take that input and feedback and you take action on energizes everyone. And you're going to get more speaking up over time. And that is how you get to this execution of strategy. So if you don't have a safe place in your organization, if people don't feel safe to speak up, then you're not going to get these changes.

Well, yeah, I definitely hear that and I hear the need to kind of stay the course with something because a lot of times we have an idea for something and we go to work on it and it doesn't work out right away. So there has to be something in you that believes in it, has conviction in at least the basic idea, and then can do the course adjustments around the execution, around the things that relate to it, but not the core idea itself.

Right, Right. I know a lot of entrepreneurs are listening and the message and some of this, and why I started with a story where it took five years is don't give up. I mean, if it's a worthy goal, Right. If you look as you go along and you say, do we still want that? Then do what it takes to get it. Also same thing. If you revisit that objective that you had and you don't want it anymore, then by all means be willing to quit. We've seen companies go out of business for that reason as well. Made this decision, sticking with this decision.

Yeah, well, well. So I'm fascinated by this and I think it's interesting that the brand, the company itself, right. The company starts in one thing, moves to another, has bakeries, has restaurants, eventually goes bankrupt, sells the brand. The brand still exists, I believe, to this day and continues on, but is not the same operating company that once existed, that launched the brand years ago. Right. Goes through many pivots of its own as it delivers value Right.

And that's, you know, that's a similar story to Nokia, which is another one of my stories. I mean, they still exist, but they had to pull themselves around and now they were a phone company, now they're a networking company.

I believe they have, I forget, I can't picture it right now, but they have like a fish or something in their logo.

The Nokia Vandykamps?

No, Nokia. Oh, Nokia.

Do they.

Yeah, it's Finnish company. Right. And I worked briefly with Nokia, Nokia usa, Nokia Technology. And I think some of the things that I experienced, it wasn't a very long experience and they weren't so great with adapting and taking advantage of things. But the company does still exist. It's over 100 years old. So talk to us about, tell us the Nokia story.

Well, so Nokia is an example of, I'm going to say it's fear. It's fear of looking bad by the leadership team, which then shows up as this is what we've decided, this is what we're doing. And it creates this unsafe place for others to speak up and say.

Why.

Are we doing it this way? Or do you see this? And it just continued. So it wasn't like the pandemic that came up and surprised people, although it shouldn't necessarily have surprised people. But I don't know about you, Bill. I mean, there are a couple of companies maybe I brought up, we talked about what would happen if there was this big change, maybe even some pandemic, because it's always a possibility, but usually it's such a low priority, I mean, such a low possibility that we really don't go through it in strategic planning. Well, in this case in Nokia, it was clear when they were using the Microsoft operating system for their phones, they were the phone for 14 years.

Yeah, for a long time.

Then for a number of years after that, they were seeing that Apple and operating system and the Android operating system were far surpassing Microsoft's operating system. And they knew their Symbian operating system wasn't, you know, needed a lot of help. So they were looking at Microsoft and that's what they were. That's who they were partnered with. Well, they just, they, they resisted for too long that Apple and Android were the systems to go with and they ended up having to sell their phone business. And then Satya Nadella when he came in because Ballmer wanted to buy it and the board was all ready to buy it. And then Satya Ndela when he came in, it was only within four months and he had the courage to say, this doesn't fit. Yeah, we're writing it off. So they bought it for like 7.8 billion and wrote it off like the next year. 7.8 billion.

There's a really storied long company and for a while the dominant company. And through their adoption of standards and focus on definitely a Eurocentric design, very handsome designs in their day, very cool physical product. They bet on the wrong horse and then couldn't change. And I did a workshop with them, a couple meetings and a workshop with them in their San Francisco headquarters. Unbelievably gorgeous offices. And a US President who wanted to make some change, but the entire environment was pulling against it. No to change, no to outsiders, no to things like that. So they had a lot of things to rely on. They started buying brands and licensing technologies and things like that. But their entire culture was like, we can't just make a change. We can't just try. Something was fascinating to me how. And I wonder how long that had been there. Who started that kind of excessive cautiousness? Because they clearly bet on the wrong horse. And unlike focusing on freshness. Right. They picked something very specific within that and then were inflexible. So instead of saying, hey, we're in the business of mobile communications or communication technology or something like that, they said, no, we're in the Symbian business, and then we're in the Microsoft business. And both of those were bad bets. Of course, Microsoft was. If you were in love with Microsoft at its time and believed that it was relevant and dominant forever, and I know a lot of people who did that. You saw that Windows and Microsoft were always going to control things because they built that ecosystem up and gotten their foothold in. Of course they didn't. And it was fully disrupted first.

With.

A lot of entrance. I mean, the Windows Phone was always a craptastic device.

I've never used one, so I don't know.

It's an awful piece of crap.

I do remember sitting in a meeting with Christian. Oh my gosh, I'm going to forget his last name, who started Tableau. And it was. It was a great meeting. And somehow he mentioned Bing and there were a lot of Microsoft, because I'm from the Seattle area Bing people. And we're like, Bing similar. So there are just some bets. I don't, I don't.

Well, Bing Zone is another one. I mean, I think a lot of Ballmer projects were Bing, were balmy, were kind of crazy. I think he just. Well, I don't know enough about Microsoft to say but from the outside he always looked like he could sort of bully his way through things. But we're definitely in a new era with Microsoft these days, so don't want to bash on, on them too.

We are. And I also, I don't tend to bash on Bulmer only because he, he just, he took too long to realize that their competitiveness wasn't serving them anymore. And that's our role as leaders to check in to say how are we showing up in this world? Is this still working for us? And it did work for them for a time.

Well, you think about a lot of companies that have stated values and you'll walk in old school company environments and they have a lot of BS business speak posted on walls and things like that. Integrity, value, teamwork, whatever. Just like generic platitudes about good ideas and things like that. But then you look at actual values in action and you might see that they're highly competitive to a fault or focused on winning over everyone and everything either. I mean in Microsoft case like competing with each other internally as well as the external world. But we also saw this to an even more toxic degree at Enron. Right. Who, Right, right.

And Enron, I mean most people were aligned. I mean they did select. Well, they selected people who fit their, in general selected those high performance achievers at all costs no matter who it harmed.

But they didn't stop to realize that they were overly competitive and focused on winning rather than value.

Right.

That that was more important than creating that. They didn't have like a why for their work besides beating everyone else.

Right, right. Similar with Dick Fuld of J.P. morgan.

Yeah, fascinating. So what? So it just sounds like that they were stubborn and unwilling to pivot in the case of Nokia. Is that your assessment of them?

Yeah, I mean they were unwilling to take input and be aware.

Yeah.

And the work, the culture itself, everyone else was unwilling to speak up. And this, we've seen this in many, I mean Mary Barra speaks openly about that. Their focus was so much on cost effectiveness, cost efficiency, I guess that they were making bad decisions because of it. And why I'm talking about some of these is that we see these even in businesses as they grow up. It starts as a good thing. Let's go back to your word about competitiveness. It starts as a good thing. Let's have the teams compete against each other. Won't that be fun? And then they have some incentives in place that are not serving how they want the culture to be. And it's a little hard to undo but it's not impossible.

Well, as you're speaking about it, it occurs to me that it really benefits you to have some external advisors, coaches, strategy council board, some groups outside to say what you can't see from inside the jar. Right. It's hard to read the label from the inside of the jar. They say and if you're in a can, you're never going to read anything. Right. So it's a very stupid joke, right? Dad humor. But I think that sometimes as coaches we call things out. Coaches, consultants and stuff will call things out and very often companies will reject them. But good companies will say, wait a minute, it's not like you don't know my world more than I do. But that outside thing is like calling out that the emperor has no clothes. We can say, yeah, you're starting to take some things for granted. You're starting to rely on some things as sacred that really need to be challenged.

Or asking questions.

Right.

I mean one of the things that really I'm going to say it's served me and it's, it's I, I was a consultant. So what consultant's the smartest person in the room and they're there to fix things. That's what a consultant does.

That's why I avoid being a consultant.

Like, and when you said, you know, people don't listen. Well, you know, they do sometimes but it's hard to integrate that change unless it comes from them. So my personal shift from consulting and I still, I call myself a performance coach so I do some consulting. If they're never get, I'm not a therapist so if they're never going to get to some ideas, I'm going to give them some ideas. But certainly try harder than I used to to ask questions that will have them come up with why they need to change themselves or at least trigger that awareness in a way that allows them to be the ones that came up with the idea.

Well, it's a great segue into the third story you shared because we talk about deeply entrenched habit born companies that have changed dramatically and mulally at Ford is a good example that why don't.

You talk about that and beautiful offices too? My understanding he writes about that in his book so. Well, the first part of this story is just the interesting because I write about pivot to clarity. One story about Ford is in that book and that is about getting clear and stepping into something that you feel that you can add value to and effect. And I'm saying this to the leaders who might Be listening. But I'm also saying this to say all of your people want this too. You know, everybody wants to be able to, wants to add value in what they're doing. So Malali didn't accept the position right away. He had to think, you know, how will I, what am I going to do? How will I serve this organization? And he said no at first. And then he kept asking himself, so he was going through this, get kind of an internal discovery. It's like, why? So they're not making cars and trucks that people want to buy. I don't know anything about cars and trucks, so how can I serve them? And then he went through this, okay, so they're making cars and trucks that people don't want to buy. Why? And he came up with a. Could it possibly be that they're not working together? And that is something that really engaged him because when he was in Boeing with the, I think it was the 777, they actually followed Ford Taurus's working together model. And it intrigued him that Ford had somehow pivoted away, shifted away from working together in that way. And he was right on. That is their biggest challenge. And I always love to bring up those leaders who have the courage to start with culture, because as shareholders look like this, look at this. It's not quick. That's not a quick change.

Well, when you think about leading, as your organization grows in size, you have, I mean, when you go from a handful of people to a few hundred people, you still have a great deal of control, even a few thousand. But when you get to many thousands of people, your control is very, very arm's length, very remote. And you have to lead leaders of leaders who are leading remotely. And you have to speak about, you have to build a team, foster a culture, share some core ideas of a strategy. You have to inspire and engage a team and lead completely different way than when you're leading, very hands on and direct. So you think about coming into an industry that, and like all of Detroit, gm, Chrysler, Ford, these traditional companies are old, deeply entrenched. Many of them have some weird cultures and only car people can work in them or struggle. Anyone outside struggles to do that. Or so you come in and focusing on the team and then what are the principles to organize around? I think is really interesting you shared a story about telling the truth in the meetings. Talk about that because I think that's really relevant for our clients.

So when he said, wow, this must be about working together and he steps into his first, he called in the Business plan review, BPR meetings, and what he asked. He had this spreadsheet which had the typical stoplight colors, green, yellow, and red. And what I should mention is he stepped into an organization for that was going bankrupt. It was going bankrupt. It was losing millions. So clearly not everything's going right. But he goes into this meeting, he tells people what?

What?

That he wants them to put on the spreadsheet. And all he sees is green. Green. It's like the organization is going bankrupt. It can't all be green if people aren't familiar with the colors. Green means everything's good.

Green is good.

Progress is what we have expected.

I think if I hear all green, there's two things going on. One is people are lying. Or, Well, I guess three things. One is people are lying. Very possibly. Another is we've set our goals too conservatively. Right. We're sandbagging everything and playing safe. Right. And the third one, though, is we're measuring the wrong thing. So we're failing over here, but we have our eye on this. Like, well, lunch is on time.

Exactly. Exactly. Those are perfect.

3.

So, you know, what did he do? He made sure that they knew that they would not be fired for telling the truth in their number, for bringing the brutal truth. Because that's what he realized, because it took weeks of them all showing green before someone showed a new number. And then Mark Fields, who, at least from Mulally's words, is that he only did so because he thought he was going to be fired anyway. So what the heck, he shows red and Mulally cheered, and people stuck with it. Now, what happened after Mulally left is Mark Field stepped in and the BPRs went away. So you. So he didn't have. He was there for, I think, six years. He kept them out of bankruptcy. Awesome. It is a continuous leadership commitment to.

Keep these things going, sustain something. It's really easy to destroy something. It takes a very long time to build something up. It's funny. Ford. Pretty soon they won't be making cars at all anymore. It'll just be SUVs and trucks. It's almost there now, except for the Mustang, really. But it's a fascinating kind of thing how these things change. I heard another great story. I don't know if it's true at all, but it's a great story. And I think of it. Mulally passed a guy in the hallway who he hadn't seen in the meetings for a while, and he said, hey, whatever your name is, Joe, I haven't seen the meetings in a while. He's kind of, oh yeah, sorry about that. I've been having a lot of issues, working really hard and other stuff going on and I just haven't been able to make it. And he's like, oh, that's, that's cool. I understand you got a lot of things going on. You know, like, it's tough sometimes you can't. You have to cut out somewhere. And guy goes, oh, thanks for understanding. It has been tough. He said, oh yeah, I totally understand you can't work here anymore, but I totally get your world.

I knew where that was going. I don't recall if that's correct or not, but I.

That's true.

But.

It wouldn't surprise me. And his Malali's demeanor is so. Well, it's kinda like mine, smiling all the time. I mean, his demeanor is very. It took a while for him to be taken seriously.

Yeah, yeah. Cause you could be upbeat but also firm. Right. And I think sometimes people smile, they want to make friends, they want to connect and they forget to be firm to hold the line around something. And I'll have this all the time. As we go to work and implementing rock habits, good execution, scaling up stuff with companies, somebody will be like, oh yeah, these guys don't really, they don't really want to do the huddle. I'm like, okay, whose company is it? Who's CEO of this place? You said you were doing this. You've spent money and time now and now somebody objects to the whole thing and you're going to cave. That's interesting to me that you would be so quick to cave. Sometimes being an SOB is a really useful thing to push on something like that. Yeah.

I have a comment on huddles. That is if they are. If you're, if you've been successful in creating a culture where people are self managing, it's possible that they don't get. The huddle is truly a place to collaborate. And it's not a hammer of reporting that you have something done that you weren't expected to have done yet. And what I found is that some people, so as you as the leader, have to work with people so that they understand this because then it becomes overwhelming for them because they want to have something great to say at every meeting. And not everybody's roles is such that something significant happens in their work every day.

Yeah.

But there's a purpose for having those.

Right.

And today the purpose is both personal and professional. So this is what you do to create a culture. It's not just about. I mean, the work includes how people are being with each other.

Well, it's funny, like, we go to work in a way that we would never tolerate in a sports team, and we go to work in some businesses a way that we wouldn't tolerate in another. So you wouldn't start a major campaign without a quick huddle up meeting. You wouldn't start a war or enter battle without a quick huddle. You wouldn't begin a play on the field or the court without a quick huddle up in a team sport. Right. And when you have a break, you huddle up to talk about how things are going to check in with people and like that.

And yet, day after day, companies come.

Into work, they just do whatever they do, and then they complain about how we're all in silos. Oh, we're all in silos. I don't know what's going on with everybody else. Well, that's why we have the huddle. Well, I don't really want to be bothered with all that. I don't care about what Lori's up to. That's the silo.

Jerk.

That's my point is that first look at how you're doing it.

Right.

Don't just toss it. I mean, I feel the same way about performance reviews. And a lot of things that are done for performance, they've just been tossed because no one could figure out how to do it in a positive way, which is ridiculous.

Cowbell to that answer. That's why you hired a coach in the first place. They taught you something, then you went to go do it. It didn't work out. Then the next time you talk to the coach, you go, oh, we abandoned that. No, that's why you have a coach. So you call the coach, the trainer, the whatever, and you say, okay, we tried it. It isn't working. Then the coach gives you some correction, helps you figure out why it isn't working to make it work. The thing works. We know that thousands and thousands of companies and teams. It works. It works.

It works.

It'll work for them. It worked for them.

It'll work for you.

So then you have to figure out, if it doesn't work, why not? You don't just go, well, I tried that serve thing, so it doesn't work. So I'm going to play tennis without a serve?

Yeah, yeah. I mean, we do that all the time. We just abandoned it because it's too hard.

Yeah, you go, you join the team. You're like, I want to go to the super Bowl. The coach goes, okay, get out there and run through the tires. And you're like, yeah, I don't really feel the tires. The tires are really not my thing. That's not. I don't care what your thing is. We're going to the Super Bowl. This team's going to go. If you want to be on this team, run through the damn tires. Like, you have to, like, adopt some of the basics of things and not.

Keep telling yourself that you're special or somehow your path is unique. Like, there's some basics that you gotta do.

Well, before we run out of time, what are the main kinds of steps.

Or takeaways from your pivot book? And then I'm gonna give people the link to it.

Okay. And so the pivot, the first book is, the main point of that is that you as a leader are in charge of orchestrating pivots over time. And it's continuous effort to make sure that your organization is ready to change when it's needed so you don't have to push so hard all the time. The other is pivot to clarity. And the message there is to give yourself time. You don't have to come to San Luis del Cabo like I am. It could just be a walk in the park or whatever you need, but give yourself the time to, to gain the insight that you need to become aware and then give your people that same time to get clear about what you're trying to say to them.

Yeah, really well said. Well, let's put the link up, if you would, Wanda. Thepivotcatalyst.com Laurie Michelle Levitt. There's the link and that. We'll put it in the show notes. It's there on the screen if you're watching on video or watching with us live. Thepivotcatalyst.com, lori. Michelle Lovett. Laurie, thank you so much for being on the show with us today. I want to thank our listeners, viewers for joining us. We bring our show to you every week. So we've got now, I don't know, 400 plus shows in the back catalog with all sorts of folks and there's just a wealth of that. So wherever you're getting this now, like it, subscribe so you can get next week's and the week after that and the week after that and, and forever. So you don't miss any of them. You can decide which ones are the most useful. Because we cover so many topics over so many times, there's always something. And of course you can find us or get in touch with us. InfoCalingCoach.com is our email address, InfoCalingCoach.com and the website ScalingCoach.com so like subscribe wherever you're getting this now. Apple Podcast, iTunes, Stitcher, Spotify, YouTube, LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter, whatever what have you. We'll be there and we'll see you again in the next week. I give special thanks before we're not here entirely to Vern Harnish, creator of the whole Scaling up framework, the original Rockefeller Habits, my friend and mentor. And to the good folks at Podflight Productions who get our show produced ready out every week. And to Wanda Mitchell, who books our guests, preps our guests and gets things ready working in the background all the time. Thank you Wanda.

Thank you Podfly.

Thank you Vern Harnish, thank you Lori Michelle Levitt. We'll talk to you all again next time. Keep Scaling Up. Bye bye. Now.

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