03: How a 17-Year Old Child-Bride Escaped Abuse & Rose to a Best Selling Author // The Story of Samra Zafar

There was one time when we had a fight and he had his hands on my throat and he was about to kill me. It was the bestseller list for several weeks. It was named as one of the best books of the year and it's now being turned into a film. So I'm super excited about that.

Welcome to From Rock Bottom to Rockin It. I'm your host, Eric Gilbert Williams and this is the podcast where we explore personal stories of people who hit absolute rock bottom, then got back up, wiped off the dust, kicked failure to the curb, and now they're rocking it like you'd never believe if you didn't hear it. Live right here, we cover subjects in business, sports and life in general. If you like this podcast, please share it. These interviews are intended to inspire, to motivate, to give hope and vision. So please share this episode with someone who needs it. Use your Instagram account, Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, Hannah hand signals. Trained pigeon sent smoke signals up in the air. Use Morse code, whatever you like, just share the love and share this episode. Also, email me anytime. Podcastericilbertwilliams.com Send me questions you would like to have asked of future guests and I will incorporate them. Or just send me some suggestions on how to run a better podcast. Or just say hello, I'd love to hear from you. That's podcastricilbertwilliams.com I know you're gonna love today's interview, so let's get started here with us today on From Rock Bottom the Rockin it is Samra Zafar. Samra is a speaker and a writer whose story of being a teen bride and survivor of domestic abuse has become a best selling memoir called A Good Escaping the Life I Never Chose in Canada. You can find that book anywhere on Amazon. Samra is an award winning international speaker, a a best selling author and a social entrepreneur. Now, after escaping a decade that's 12 years of abuse living as a child bride in Canada, she pursued her education as a single mother working multiple jobs and completed her bachelor's and Master's degree in economics from the University of Toronto. And not only that, she graduated from the University of Toronto with the highest distinction, winning over a dozen awards and scholarships. She was named the top student in economics and was the recipient of the prestigious John H. Moss Award. And for those of you who are unfamiliar, it's a particular scholarship awarded to the single most outstanding student across the university's three campuses. Only one student and there's about 60,000 other students. Remember that. Now this is a serious jump and an evolution from being essentially a child slave. And that's what we're going to talk about here. To me, Samra, that's like you, metaphorically speaking, jumped across the Grand Canyon here. How did you escape? And not only that, how did you discover that there was this beautiful gem hidden deep inside of you and then you can release it with the world where you are now is touching the hearts of thousands of people. And how did you do this jump?

You know, it's not like I had this grand master plan that this is what I'm going to do with my life. This is how I'm going to jump. Any big jump involves countless of little steps and little jumps. It's like climbing a big mountain. You know, if you look at it and it's insurmountable, but if you just focus on the next step and just keep going, just keep putting one foot in front of the other and you look back and you're like, oh, my God, I've come this far and come this high. And that's really what it was. It started even when I was a little girl, before I even got married. I was just always very passionate about my education, and I always was that student who got upset about the 1% that I didn't get instead of the 99% that I did get. So it used to drive everyone crazy. But very passionate about school, very passionate about teaching and about education. And then when I was pushed into this marriage and sent off to Canada as a child bride with a much older man who I'd never ever met before, and my education was put to a stop, and I was told that you should be grateful that you got to the real purpose of being a woman sooner rather than later and didn't have to go through all that education. And I wasn't allowed to go to school. I wasn't allowed to have friends, have any independence. And I just fought. It was little battles. It was like, you know, when I couldn't go to a regular high school, I found out about the Independent Learning center, where you can order your high school courses through distance learning and study at home. So it took me five years to finish those high school courses.

How did you not give up, though? I mean, how did you not get overwhelmed? And how did you break through that?

I did. And being strong is not about not feeling weak. It's about getting back up after in those moments. It's literally those moments when you're down and when you are feeling hopeless and it's dark and it's about choosing to see that little ray of sunshine. It's about choosing to get back up one more time and take one more step. And there were so many times when I felt like giving up and when I felt overwhelmed. This is not going to work. What's the point of me studying? It's not like I'm ever going to be able to go to university. My husband doesn't like it that I study. And I would be called selfish and a bad mom and a bad daughter in law and all kinds of things for pursuing my dreams. Why can't you just be normal? Like, why can't you be like a normal woman who just take care of the house and the kids? Why do you have all these dreams? So I heard all that from his family, from my family, and it was overwhelming. It felt like I'm the only person fighting the battle against the whole world against me, you know? But it was choosing to fight that battle. So in those dark moments when I felt there was no hope, I would stand in front of a mirror with a piece of paper rolled up in my hand and practice the graduation speech that I would one day give. Even when I didn't know if that would ever happen. But it was choosing to believe and.

What'S dark for you so that people can understand. This podcast is about sharing these authentic stories so that people can relate and know that they're not alone in this struggle. Right. The objective here, the end goal of this podcast, the intention of it, is to help spread some light and share some clarity that, you know, there is light at the end of the tunnel. And not only that, there's light inside each of us. There's light inside of you that's ready to come out. And if we nurture that flame, it will come out. So, Samra, to whatever degree you're comfortable sharing, please tell me, like, what was going on back then? What did dark look like for you so that people can understand just how far you've come since then.

You know, dark looks like alone, being alone, feeling alone, feeling isolated, feeling disconnected. Not just with the world, but more so with yourself. And when you are in a place when you cannot show up as who you are and you feel like you have to be a little bit more of that or less of this, or try to morph yourself, mold yourself and fit into a box in order to get the least bit of acceptance, kindness, and love, that's what dark is. And for me, dark living with abuse. It's like living in this dark space with enough air that you can just breathe and Survive, but not enough for you to breathe deeply and thrive. So it's this feeling of constant suffocation, like you're walking on eggshells, waiting for the other shoe to drop. I used to wake up every morning and just wish that it would be a dull, uneventful day, which would be a good day for me. Because when I heard a door slam somewhere in the house, I just know that it's impending. Today, something's going to happen. And living with that fear is so debilitating. And number it does on your psychology and your brain over time is pretty huge. And that's the long term damage that I'm still healing from and I'm still recovering from and trying to always constantly tell myself, even after coming this far and all these years and winning all these awards, etc. It's still an internal battle. And oftentimes people who know me and are closest to me will say this, that there's a big gap between the way the world sees Samra and the way Samra sees herself. And let's try to bridge that gap. That's what darkness is. It's that disconnection that you feel with yourself. Because if you're not feeling comfortable in your skin and you're not getting respect and love for who you are and you have to fit in and change yourself and morph yourself, that is not something anyone should go through. Because being accepted and feeling belonging and love for who we are is our birthright. That's what I believe.

I totally believe that as well. And when we're talking about dark moments, I remember when I was little and my parents were arguing and my parents split up when I was five, my mom left and took me with her. And when they were arguing, when they were still together, I remember one time, I don't know, I must have been three or four years old. It's crazy how some of these memories stick, these traumatizing memories sometimes stick with a kid. And I remember they were yelling and screaming at each other and my mom took me by the hand to lead me out of the apartment and take me away from everything that was going on. And I remember my dad grabbed my other arm as I was trying to leave because my mom was pulling one side to lead me out the door and my dad actually grabbed a hold of my other arm to keep me in. I was like a kid of war, like a tug of war, literally. Now I should mention as well, I mean, I'm lucky my dad made this promise, both to himself and to us, that he would never physically abuse us. And to his credit, he fulfilled that promise. He never actually hit anyone or physically abused anyone like he was abused when he was a kid. He won't talk about it much with me, but he was a foster kid of several homes and it was very difficult. So he never actually abused or hit us physically. But this one time there was this big argument and he did grab ahold of my arm. And so, yeah, there was this tug of war thing going on. And my mom realized that I was going to get hurt soon, so she left. She let go of my arm and left out of the apartment. And I remember the door closing behind her as she left. And it was just me left there with my dad. And I remember looking at his face. I remember so clearly the rage that was going on in his eyes and his expression and the lines in his cheeks because the muscles were all flexed. And I remember the look in his eyes when he realized there was no one left to be angry at. He wasn't angry at me. He was yelling. And he lost his power to yell and to be emotionally aggressive like that. It was some sort of a dominance thing. And when my mom left, she took away that power that he had and he was just left staring at the door. And I remember him looking at me and he had lost that power.

Wow, that just gave me goosebumps.

And I would imagine that for you, Samra, there was probably a moment similar where you realized, man, you just gotta. You have to take some action right now. And please tell us about that. What was it?

There were a number of them, but I'll talk about two. So there was one time when I was, I think, 21 or 22, and my daughter was 2 or 3 years old at the time. And I been married already for about four years. And the only place I was allowed to go outside of the house was this nearby neighborhood, Ontario, earlier center, which is little drop in play school kind of a thing for kids.

Okay?

That's the only place I was allowed to go on my own. So I would happily put my daughter into the stroller and go there. And I would always get jittery if the class ran over time because then I would get yelled at. But one day I was coming back from the center and there was a Tim Hortons in the way. And my daughter looked at it and started to ask me to get her a Sprinkles donut, which is her favorite donut. And I never ever had any money on me, but I would still squirrel away like a few coins here and there that I'd see lying around and from my ex husband's pocket. So I was absolutely sure that I had a toonie in my purse that I put it in there.

And these are all very Canadian terms here, by the way, for people listening in. We're talking about Tim Hortons, Timbits and donuts. And we're talking about toonies.

Oh my God, I totally forgot that. Yeah, so Timothy is $2, everybody. Tim Hortons is the Canadian version of Starbucks. A lot of Starbucks lovers would hate me right now.

They don't.

They'd understand the Canadian thing. So I got in line and I was so proud of myself that I could buy her a donut, because that's something I was never able to do. And I ordered the donut, the lady gave it to my daughter. And I then reached into my purse and I couldn't find it. And I turned my purse upside down. I just could not find the coin. And I felt so humiliated. My palms getting sweaty, my face is getting red. And I look over at my daughter and she's already bit into the donut. So I don't have a choice now to return it. A man behind me saw that and he just looked at me and he's like, ma', am, can I pay for your coffee? I said, no, I don't need coffee. I just need a donut for my daughter. And he's like, okay, let me buy her the donut. And he had this look of sympathy, compassion, and pity on his face. I'll never forget that look. And he paid for the donut. I was already starting to feel really embarrassed and shamed and suffocated. And I just ran out of the timbs and I sat at the bench outside and I just started sobbing because I felt so powerless and pathetic. And I can't even buy a $2 donut from my daughter. And I knew at that moment that I needed to do whatever I could to gain little bits of independence and find ways to make money. So that's when I started. After that, shortly after, a few years after that, I started running a home daycare and saving every penny that I could, which led me to university. But that was a pivotal moment. And then afterwards, it was later on in my marriage, there was a moment when the abuse was at its all time peak. I was in my second year of university and I had been going to counseling secretly at university and learning what was happening to me was abuse and that I had voices and I had options and I had rights as a woman, as A human being, as a Canadian. So I started to fight back at home, and that just led to the abuse getting worse and worse, because that's what abuse is about, power and control. When the abuser feels that they're losing control, they want to exert more power. There was one time when we had a fight and he had his hands on my throat, and he was about to kill me, and I could feel his thumbs very close to my windpipe. And it would have just taken one big squeeze and I'd be dead. And I somehow got away. I kicked him and I pushed him away, and I picked up my car keys and ran out of the house, got into my minivan and just drove frantically around aimlessly and parked somewhere and just started to literally shake. And I knew in that moment that I had to leave. I can't wait for all my ducks to be in a row, and I'll finish my education, I'll get a job, and then I'll leave. I needed to leave now, and then whatever happens, happens after that. And I didn't want to die, and I didn't want my daughters to grow up thinking that this was normal, and they have to tolerate it, too. So that's when I ended up making that decision to leave. But there were so many other pivotal moments as well. But I think those who really stood out in that journey.

And you hit an important subject here about personal development and about moving forward in life. All lights aren't always going to be green when you're moving forward. All ducks aren't always going to be lined up in a row.

They never will be. Yeah, if you're going to for the right moment and the perfect moment, it'll never come. You have to take the moment and make it right.

When we drive to Tim Hortons 15 times a day, like Canadians do, we have to go through a series of stoplights, and none of them are ever all green and lined up perfectly at the same time. We jump in our car, we start to drive, and we go from the driveway to the first intersection. And if the light's green, we go through great. If it's red, we have to stop. But we don't just sit there in the driveway and wait for all the lights to be green before ever leaving. No, we have to go forward with what we've got and get as far as we can. And then once we hit that first red light, we got to stop and wait, and then we go forward to the next one over and over until we get to that Tim Hortons and You figured out this little secret to life, Samrat. You figured out that the time to take action is now the time to take control of our life and to honor our own self respect is now the time to take a step forward in a positive direction. It's right here, it's right now.

Exactly. And we often feel that we want to learn everything before we do it, but it's actually the doing that leads to the learning. And once I did leave and I didn't have money, friends, job, support system, income, nothing. And I had two young kids, they were nine and three. And I have no family in Canada. His family was completely against me and I was ostracized by the community and where I grew up. And there was a lot of shame and stigma associated with, and still is with being divorced. And single mother is a bad word. And so I was even abandoned by a lot of my own family at that time who weren't here, but they were back in Pakistan. But still like the shame and judgment that I felt was crippling. So I did have all the answers. I didn't know what I'm going to do and how I'm going to make it. But I also knew that if I don't try, I'll never find out. And if there's even a little chance that I can create a better life and do something, I wanted to take that chance because I didn't want to sit there 20 years down the road and regret why didn't I do something about this when I was younger or worse, be dead. So I laughed. It wasn't easy. He sold the house from under me and I was almost homeless. But I was luckily a student at ut, so they gave me emergency housing on campus. I moved there. I didn't even have money for movers. I actually packed all my money, all my stuff in garbage bags and it took me a few days, multiple trips a day to move. All the stuff went from this big mansion of a prison to this little two bedroom, shabby looking student housing apartment with the ugliest looking green carpet ever, but it was mine. And then I started to think of ways of how to make ends meet. Because he wasn't paying child support or spousal support, he wasn't going to make it any easy for me. So I had to fight that. And obviously all of that takes time. It took a year or more than a year to settle all that stuff in court. But what I did was okay. Now I need to find ways to make money. So I started tutoring students. I Started paying. I started picking up on campus jobs. I was doing night shifts at the student center, selling bus tickets because. And it was required. So that's where I would study. And then I subletted a room in my apartment to another girl. And I said, you know, when I'm in night shifts at work and stuff, so watch my children for me. I won't. I'll charge you half the rent that you pay anyway. Else. And my secret sauce. I discovered that students on campus are always starving for home cooked food. So I started to sell homemade butter chicken to students on campus. And I love cooking.

Isn't that a secret to everyone's heart? It's good food.

And that's how it made a lot of friends who are still in my life. And I always tease them that I know you're my friends for the food and the butter chicken. And they're like, yeah, that's how it started. But we still love you, Sarah. Like, okay, but that's the thing. You just make it work. You just gotta like, knock on enough doors, you think of enough things. Some of them are bound to work. Some of them won't work, but some of them will work. And you just have to keep moving along. And it's not like I didn't want to give up. There were days when I just thought, oh my God, everyone's right. I'm never going to be able to make it. How am I going to get make next month's rent? How am I going to put food on the table next week? Maybe I should have just given up. Maybe I should just go back. But in those moments, it was a choice. Am I going to get back up one more time and try one more time? And it all did work out. I did make the rent next month. I did put food on the table next week. Something or the other happened because you just have to keep trying and keep pushing forward and things will happen. But it's really those moments. So it's no master plan of jumping across the Grand Canyon. It's just taking the next step.

And you did take that next step. You've been on Huffington Post, Global Citizen, ctv, cbc. You've been on Global News, the Globe and Mail, we, you've been in Canadian Press, Toronto Star, you've been on Yahoo, you've been on Canadian Immigrant Magazine, even Washington Post.

Actually, Washington Post named the book as one of the top books of 2019.

That's amazing. And when we come back, I want to ask you, where haven't you been featured and how many copies of your book have been sold. Those questions when we come back from this short little break. I hope you're enjoying today's interview. Please remember to share this with someone who needs it. Use your Instagram, your Facebook, your Twitter, Morse code, hand signals, smoke signals in the air. Whatever happens to work for you, please remember to share this episode and spread the love. Also, remember to pick up a copy of Samra's book. You can find it on Amazon. It's called A Good Wife by Samra Zafar. You can check out her website as well, samrazafar.com there's going to be a link on the show notes to this episode as well. And I'm going to read you a little snippet from an online review of someone who read this book and posted this review online. And this lady says that Zafar's story transcends all cultural differences and shows the reader how abuse festers within a family and pours down from generation to generation. This was a book that was very hard to put down and I kept cheering for Zafar as she progressed along her arduous journey. It's a very bravely written and remarkable memoir about one woman escaping in abusive marriage and her persistence to overcome. Now back to the show. We're back now on From Rock Bottom to Rockin It. Samra, thank you again for joining us today. You've sold so many copies of your book and you've also been named as one of Canada's most 100 powerful women. How does it feel to be recognized like that? I mean, did you know that you were this influential and had such a powerful story? And how many copies of your book have you sold? I have to ask.

Oh gosh, I don't know the exact number. I just know that it's one of the.

You mean you don't check every morning?

No, no, I used to at the very beginning when the book came out. And then I'm like, this isn't good for me. So it was the bestseller list for several weeks. It was named as one of the best books of the year by CBC and it's now being turned into a film. So I'm super excited about that.

Oh, that's amazing.

There's a lot more to the story too. Which brings me to my second book. And that why I'm so interested in your book because my daughter struggles with mental illness and three years ago she was suicidal and she was self harming and I was like, what is going on? She was 15, 16 at the time and she just had all These nightmares and trauma issues from the abuse that she saw as a kid. And I'm like, what's going on now? Like, we've been out of that marriage for 6, 7 years. Why is this coming back to haunt us? One day on Father's Day of 2017, I discovered her on our living room couch at 3am with cuts all over her. And I just freaked out. I took her to the hospital and she was diagnosed with complex post traumatic stress disorder because of the abuse that she witnessed as a kid. And that started me on this whole journey of learning about childhood psychology and how children experience trauma. They don't just witness it. And then also on developing skills as a parent to help her and support her through that journey of healing and realizing that my job is not to solve her problems, rather it is to hold space for her and be an empathetic caregiver and just make her feel safe in her journey. And it really changed my approach to parenting. I went through tons of books and therapy sessions and training sessions, et cetera. So my next book is about that journey and she and I are co writing it. So for doing it from a mother daughter voice. So that gives a real lens for parents on the youth perspective and vice versa. And also offers a bit of a guide for parents to how do you like. A lot of parents I see struggling because they just don't know. Like, they love their kids, but they just don't know what they're going through. Like, when your child is having a panic attack and cutting themselves in front of you, what do you do? You feel absolutely helpless and you feel like a failure as a parent. And I did too. And then it comes out, often in unhealthy ways. Like I would say to my daughter, what do you have to worry about? I was married when I was your age, and one day she said to me, mom, just because you had different problems doesn't mean that mine aren't valid. And that was such a big sort of jolt for me. A lot of lessons that I learned through that process is something I feel like a lot of parents would value. And also make sure that her voice is heard as to give that insight into what do kids actually go through. When she used to say to me, mom, it's actually less pain for me to cut myself than to live with the nightmares that I have of a dad beating you up and feeling helpless that I couldn't do anything to protect you.

Wow, that's powerful.

Yeah, it is.

And we're talking about relativity here. We're talking about rich kids in good neighborhoods, people that don't have it quite as good as other people. Or on the flip side, where things are really, really bad and not understanding how anyone else's situation could trigger the same emotion. But that's what it really is. It's an emotional trigger. It's all relative to something else.

Absolutely.

Yeah. And that specific subject where you said about the parent, when you said this somewhat controversial subject about creating a comfort space when I ran away from home, that was in big part from my mom saying that these are my boundaries. She said to me that these are my boundaries, and if you're not going to respect them, then you need to leave. And she created this safe space for me, but she also respected herself in the process.

Yeah.

I mean, are you going in the direction. In that type of a direction with the book?

Yes, absolutely. Because she was coming out at me with all kinds of toxic behaviors and almost like using me as a punching bag, because I was her safe space. Right. I was that person who will never abandon her. And she tested me in every way. Like, she would steal money from me. She would write suicide notes and just disappear for two days. And it was just horrible. And the way I started to respond, respond to that was like, oh, I just need to give her more love or give her more things. Like, one time she and I had a fight, and I felt so guilty about saying a few things that I ended up getting her a $5,000 imac after that, you know? And I realized eventually, through therapy and training, what I was doing was not healthy because I'm not setting those boundaries. It started affecting me in the process that I started living with a lot of guilt and shame and feeling not good enough as a mom and as a person through training and therapy. And she and I went to a lot of group therapy together. We were able to develop those skills. And especially me as a parent was able to develop those boundaries. She used to say, I just want to move out. I'm like, okay, I'm not going to fight you anymore. Let's think of a safety plan. Let's think of how we can enable you to get there. And then after a few of those conversations, we were like, I don't want to move out. She's with me. She lives with me, and we're together, and we're better than ever before. We're stronger in our relationship. But it took a whole journey to get there, and I had to set some firm boundaries that, you know what? This is acceptable and this is not. I'm not going to sit there and be a punching bag, but at the same time, being an empathetic and loving mother, it's a very fine line. It's like always, you're trying to have this balancing act between am I going to be that disciplining parent because this behavior is unacceptable, or am I going to be an empathetic, understanding caregiver because I know this behavior is stemming from.

Mental illness and the consequences are severe. Making the wrong decision or pushing a little bit too far.

Always walking on eggshells.

Yeah. One of my biggest fears looking back, that maybe my mom would have gone in a different direction and that we wouldn't have left and that I wouldn't have gotten out, or maybe it would have made our relationship terrible. I mean, we're so close. Our relationship is so strong. She's my best friend.

But yeah.

Is it luck or is it skill? I mean, when you look back at how you've been able to help evolve your relationship with your own daughter out of conflict into being one of being close enough to write a book together. I mean, talk about evolution, right there. Was that luck? I mean, did you know how to do that, or did it just sort of. Did the path become more clear as you were taking steps forward?

No, it was instinct. I think it was also lived experience because my mother had never done that for me. And I'm a childhood sexual abuse survivor, and she instead of protecting me and I was faced with more shame and eventually married off at a young age, at 16 as a kid. And I never had that close relationship with my mother. She was not able to understand my trauma or anything. So I think I was really determined not to be my mom. And I'm an empath by nature, so that helped. But then I think it was also this determination to learn. But in order to learn, you first have to accept that you're not perfect. And I grew up in a culture where moms can do no wrong. And I did do that for a while, if I'm honest. But I got out of it pretty quickly because I was like, no, this isn't helping. This is only going to alienate my daughter from me, and I don't want to lose her. So I need to first accept that I'm not perfect. And I'm not supposed to be perfect. I'm human too. And just because you brought them out of that marriage and given them a better life doesn't mean that they're indebted to me. And the journey continues, and I have to continue to be that parent, that understanding and support, supportive. So that's what started that whole process of learning. And that involved reading books and listening to videos or attending therapy on my own. And also I think the biggest thing that helped us was we attended a six, I think eight month therapy program together, which taught us skills on validating each other and interpersonal skills, emotional regulation, like what to do when you're in conflict. And so we learn skills to get in touch with each other, but before that also get in touch with ourselves. So that really turned us around as a mother and daughter.

And that's complete vulnerability right here. I am, as I am, completely open to anything that happens. Here's what I know and I'm open to anything else that I don't know. And let's just get started.

Let's embrace life, let's embrace it, let's do something about it. And I'll give you a quick example of that, how that turned around for us, because one time we were in group therapy and she had a panic attack. And this is. Group therapy is like me and her as well as other parents and their youth. So it's kind of like a training thing for eight months every week. So she had a panic attack, she got up and she went outside and sat in the middle of the street. And this is like a pretty quiet, dead street, but a street nonetheless. And she's sitting in the middle of the street and I go out and I'm like, what's going on? And she's like, I can't do this. I just don't want to live. I want a car to run over me. I. This is so painful. I can't handle this, Mom. Just go away. Just leave me alone. You're better off without me. You don't need to put up with me anymore. I could see she's clearly in distress. And instead of what I would have done a year before that, I would have probably said something like, get up, this is so embarrassing. Get over yourself. Why are you sitting in the middle of the street? And instead of doing that, I just sat with her in the middle of the street. And she looks at me and she's like, what are you doing? I'm like, I'm just sitting here with you. And she's like, in your 4 inch heels and your short dress, you're going to sit here with me. And I'm like, yes, I will, because I love you. And we can sit here for as long as you want. There's no rush. I just want to hold your hand. Can I please do that.

I love it. That's great. That's fantastic. And it's a power struggle, right. And I remember in my own examples where I would fight for the sake of fighting, I would argue for the sake of arguing. And maybe to some degree every kid goes through a similar type of rebellious period to some degree. But when it hits the extremes, I mean, suicides are not on the decrease here. It's a subject close to my heart. I've had friends whose kids have committed suicide. It's something that we have to go through together. You know, them as a parent, most importantly, and then of course me as a friend and talking to them and being there for them and to whatever capacity I can. And what are we going to do about this? We can talk about it. That's one thing that we can do. We can get these subjects out in the open. We can work through them together proactively, hopefully. And talking about important subjects. You've been talking on TED talks. I think there's been three of them now. Is that right?

Yes. And in fact, my next talk, it's not a TED Talk, it's something else I'm doing with speakerslam Theme is family. So it's really about the story of coming together as a mother and daughter.

And I know exactly who to send it to. There's a community here that I'm working with that's focused on doing a movement around the subject of parent and child relationships on important subjects like this. So I look forward to seeing this. And that'll be your fourth TED Talk. Now when I go online here and I'm checking out your Goodreads, it's not a TED Talk.

It's a pretty big though.

Well, either way, it's a big talk.

Yeah.

Last time I checked you had 901 positive ratings on Goodreads with about a four and a half star average, which basically means that everyone loves your book.

Yeah, the book is doing really well. In fact, the book is now being turned into a film, which is really.

So I hear.

Yeah, I'm super excited about it.

Question for you on that. So what's the film going to be called? I think it's With Belle. Is that right?

Yeah, it's with Belvedere picked it up. So it's going to be a TV series of four episodes and we are probably going to name it after the book. It's an adaptation of the book, but I don't know yet. Like they might come up with a different title, but we'll see when we get to that stage.

Now, about Canada. I'm Canadian, and this really strikes my heart. I mean, Canada has this reputation of being a happy, friendly, polite place to live and a place to be. Like, relatively speaking, there's not as many bad things that happen in Canada as in many other places in the world. But then we have your story. How does this happen in Canada? And I mean, if it's happening here, does that mean that it's happening everywhere? What's your thought on that?

Is absolutely happening everywhere. And violence against women is a universal issue. One in three women in North America will have suffered intimate partner violence at some point in their life. One in two will have suffered some kind of physical or sexual harassment. There are 12 million girls every year who are being forced into marriage as children, including in the United States. There are some states where there's no minimum age for girls to get married. And there's only two states where child marriage is completely outlawed, which is Delaware and New Jersey. And in Canada, child marriage is still legal at 16 with parental consent. That's the minimum age, which often means a father will sign off for their daughter and off she goes. And she's married to a much older man. And I'm right now mentoring dozens of child married survivors across the country because they say to me, like one of my mentees said to me, it's not like my father put a gun to my head or a knife to my throat, but if he says, if you don't marry this person, you're not part of the family and you're out on the streets, what are you going to do as a 16 year old? So my question is to the government and to the policymakers and the powers that be that a girl cannot buy alcohol before the age of 18. She cannot get a lawyer to get custody for her children. She cannot get a divorce because she can't get a lawyer. She cannot get a car or a credit card or property, but she can enter the most important contract of her life, marriage. And how do we allow that? And why do we allow that? It's a big problem around the world. And then because child marriage already starts from a place of control and power imbalance, it almost inevitably leads to domestic violence and other forms of abuse. And that's another big conversation, because domestic violence is not specific to child marriage. Any kind of marriage or any kind of relationship can be violent. And it often starts with not physical abuse. It starts with emotional abuse and toxic behavior. And oftentimes you overlook that women don't even know they're being abused until much later. And it's like a frog in hot water analogy that I use is if you put the frog in hot water, the frog jumps out and runs away. That's like somebody coming and slapping you in the middle of the street and you're going to report them. But if you put a frog in water and turn the heat up ever so slightly, the frog's body temperature keeps adjusting to the rising temperature of water, and the frog eventually cooks. Death without even realizing. That's how abuse progresses. But oftentimes, people aren't even aware of the early signs. They only find out until it's too late and they're already accustomed to it and they're trapped psychologically. So even if, yes, the door's open, you can walk out, but you're imprisoned in your own mind and it just plays those tricks on you. So my whole life mission is to raise awareness around these issues because I call violence against women one of the most prevalent yet most hidden social injustice of our times, because there's so much shame, stigma, and taboo around it. And then when you go on to, like, the effects on children and everything else, that's another huge story.

It sure is. And when you put it in perspective like that, a moment ago, when you said that a woman can engage in so many contracts except for the most important one, it really puts it in perspective on just how imbalanced the system might be. And when we come back from this short little break, I want to hear about this little voice that you said was in your head and helped you to make different choices. And I want to ask you, what did you do? How did you escape? What was that process? Those two questions when we come back from this short little break, thank you so much for sharing this show and spreading the love. Every time you click that share button or put it on your social media, it makes a big difference to those who listen to it, to the guests that I have on here as well, and to me personally, this is a passion project. And so all of your help, sending me feedback, sending me an email, clicking that contact me button on my website, all of that is amazing and it really touches my heart because when I was little and struggled, I dropped out of school, I got into drugs and violence. It was very difficult. And I hit rock bottom. My own rock bottom in that context was when I was around 17 years old and I thought I was going to jail for a long time. I didn't know what was going to happen. And I got out because people reached out to me and Helped me. People picked me back, back up and gave me motivation to move forward, just like you're hearing in these interviews. So this really is a passion project for me and I'd love it if you checked out my book as well. I tell my whole story on there. You can find it on my website, ericgilbertwilliams.com just click on my book. I would love for you to download a free copy of the intro and prologue. It's there right now anytime. There's an audio version as well. And now we're going to go back to the interview. Talk to you guys soon.

Exactly. When I started out with my speaking and everything, it was really just a side hobby, a side hustle that I was doing as well as pursuing a banking career. And it's not really a banking. It's not something that I aspire to be. Just was the job that was offered to me after I got out of university and I took it. At that point I didn't really have much of a choice or any mentorship, guidance or anything. But now I'm at a stage in life where I'm. My side hustle has grown to a level where I'm pulling in more money than I am in my banking job. And I'm like, if I can do this with just treating it as a side hobby, imagine what I could do. If I put all my energies into it and grow it and develop a different product, like workshops and consulting practices and stuff like that in the field of what I do, then I owe it to myself to go all in and grow it. And I'm very entrepreneurial. So I get your entire point about being, you know, difference between entrepreneur and business owner. I'm an entrepreneur, I'm not yet a business owner and I'd like to be.

You get it?

Yeah, exactly.

My book is in pre order phase by the way. It's getting launched in summer.

That's amazing.

It's called the Standing Spot. It's about my life as a teen and going through a lot of struggles and getting through it. And I admit to checking for how many pre orders there are. Probably too many times I just check in. What can I say? I mean, I'm excited for the launch. It's like, oh look, I got one more. Did you do that for a while? Did you check in just to see how that ticker was moving?

Yeah. Well, I had to go through my publisher and I would ask them, if I asked them every day, they would hate me and they would just go away. I would get like weekly reports or monthly reports. But now I'm like, it's doing well, it's impacting people. That's all I want. So it's really have been one of the best experiences of my life. And it continues like a book lives forever, right? It's still going strong. And the best part of my author life has been doing book club conversations. So I put this offer out as an author that any book club that picks up my book, I will join them for a conversation. And if it's locally, then I'll join them in person. Otherwise I'll Skype in or zoom in or something. So that has been fantastic. I've done over 100 book club conversations in the last year. And I have been in so many people's living rooms, so many people over, over zoom and online. And it's just fantastic to see how people have resonated with the story, what they have taken, how they're going to keep the conversation going. Because that's really what it was about for me was to use the book as a platform to shed light on these issues and through a lens of intersectionality. So even though violence against women is a universal thing and it happens to people from all walks of life, there are certain cultural nuances and the barriers to leaving and the shame and stigma associated with leaving and speaking up are often culturally unique. And those nuances need to be highlighted as well as addressing the universality of the issue. So speak on so many different levels, which I really. The biggest compliment that I got for the book was that it answered the question for me why women stay. So there's like this whole thing, why don't you just leave? As if it's so easy, like you have a job or you have an income, like, if he's so bad, why didn't you just leave? But there is so complex to leave.

Is it complex in reality or just in your mind? Or both?

Both. I can speak certainly from my experience. I was kid. I didn't have a job, no family. I didn't know what the world outside looks like. I had been told that I'd be deported if I left him because he sponsored me. I didn't have any money, any kind of income, not even an education. I didn't even have high school when I got married. So yes, in reality it was complex, but also in my mind, because I was told every day that I was worthless and useless and good for nothing and everything that was happening to me was my fault and I deserved it. And you hear that every day. You end up, you start to believe it, and then it takes a toll on your self esteem and confidence and you just think you can't make it outside. So we see a lot of even very, very strong women over the course of abusive relationships, completely losing their confidence and strength and still staying. So it is complex in reality as well as in mind. And that's why it's so important to highlight those complexities that often come from even the cultural nuances like shame and stigma associated with speaking up and walking away.

On the subject of complexities, one of them that pops up that probably everyone can relate to to some degree is the one about money. And you were a child bride. I mean, I'm thinking that means that basically you were a slave. I mean, is that fair to say?

Yeah, absolutely.

Okay.

I call child marriage legalized pedophilia. It's literally it.

Wow, that's incredible. It's so powerful. I'm so sorry this happened to you. I think that a lot of people, for me anyways, because I wasn't exposed to this type of a situation as a child. I never heard of this before growing up. It's almost like the brain just says, oh, no, that doesn't happen here. That's not a part of reality around here. This doesn't happen.

It happened so much. I was in Texas last summer doing a whole workshop in an event on North American child brides. So I was representing Canada, and there's another activist in the us, Bradley Rice, and she's amazing and she was representing us. And there are thousands of girls every year who are pushed into child marriages in North America. Thousands, Thousands, Yes. It is happening here. And then there are girls even in Canada, like I said, child marriage continues to be legal. And there are girls being taken away back up home in the summers and they come back married. Like, I've been in so many book clubs where teachers are telling me about stories of girls being taken away and then coming back married. Or there was one teacher who said that this was in Cambridge, Ontario, that there was this girl in her class. And every week a new prospective groom and his family will come to see her and assess her eligibility as a bride. And the girl's mom makes her vacuum in front of these families to prove that she's good housewife material.

Holy moly.

This is like here, right? And there are countless such stories. And Freddy could go on and on about stories from the US as well. We think this doesn't happen, but it actually does happen. And it happens right in our backyard.

How do we stop it.

The first thing to stop it is to raise awareness, right? Because you didn't know about all this before. I just told you. So the first thing is to raise awareness and to shed light on these issues. And in order to do that, we need to enable survivors to speak up and we need to give them that platform. And you need to remove the shame and stigma and taboo from speaking up about it. The best way to change it or the most crucial way is also to change our laws. Why does child marriage continue to be legal in Canada and majority of the US it shouldn't be and it should be outlawed.

And where can governments step in, do you think? I mean, this isn't a pro or against Justin Trudeau type of a conversation, but at what point does government. And should government be involved in this?

The very least they could pass legislation to outlaw child marriage. And then they need to work with community leaders, religious leaders. In schools especially, the education system is crucial because oftentimes girls grow up not knowing their rights. They have the ability to stand against their parents and say, no, I don't want to do this. Also to give them that education and empowerment and tools that if this happens, if you find yourself being pressured, here's a number you can call or here's the school that you can turn to or go to your guidance counselor and things like that. But like, I mean, the first step is to outlaw it and make it illegal. We don't even have that yet.

Let's just start with the basics here. Let's just make something that's obviously not okay officially not okay.

And the problem is that politicians generally don't want to talk about these issues because, oh, this is their cultural thing, it's accepted in their culture, or this is a family issue or this is a religious issue. But no, it's not. It's a human rights issue. And yes, we are countries that stand on cultural and religious freedom and the charter of Rights and all of that. And you know, I'm an immigrant myself and I totally believe in cultural and religious freedom, but never, ever, ever at the cost of human rights. And child marriage is a human rights violation. So I don't care what culture or religion it says that it's okay in it should not happen and it should be illegal.

There's tribes still out there deep in the Amazon jungle that they practice cannibalism. And does that make it okay if they come into our society and continue practicing cannibalism just because that's part of their religion? Would the government of Canada accept that? I really don't think so. That wouldn't be accepted on any level. So I agree that child marriages shouldn't be allowed on any level at any time. It is a human rights issue. It is a countrywide and a global issue.

Yeah, 12 million girls every year around the world.

And we're all connected now on all the same social media accounts, watching the same feeds and the same stories every single day. There's no reason that I can see to not put this on the spotlight and put together a motion and a policy officially in place to respect the rights of children. We need to put this through Parliament. We need to make this official. We need to essentially update the law to ensure that children from any nationality, of any gender and of any background. Background whatsoever, that they're all respected and have protection in place for things like this. That's my opinion.

There are days when I wake up to news that just infuriates me even more, like Pakistan just passed a law that a girl can get married after her first period. As if that's all she needs, you know, like she's childbearing age. That's the entire purpose she has to serve in this war. So let's just get her married off.

Oh, man.

And now that you need parental consent in order to get birth control, if you're a minor, okay, so she's allowed to have sex, but she's not mature enough to decide if she can get birth control or an abortion. But she is mature enough to have a baby. It's just ridiculous how these people think.

So we're going to start a revolution here and fix all of this stuff. And for those of you who are out there waiting for this revolution to happen, and we're talking about empowerment of voice and speech and putting your story out there. I have a question for you, Samra, on that subject. When I was going through my own struggles when I was a teenager, and of course, when I left school and I got into drugs and got arrested, I was scared as an adult to tell my story. I was scared to bring up these subjects and to let people know what was going on and to tell people that I did struggle, I was concerned about the consequences of my actions many, many, many years in the past. Right? When I share my story, I'm taking a risk. When anyone shares their story that's personal and that contains things that maybe they're not proud of, they're taking a risk. And so it's so easy to just keep those stories hidden and not share them for fear of possible negative Consequence by putting it out there in the world. How did you find a way through this? How did you find the courage to share your story and just break through that barrier? How did that work out for you?

Oh, gosh. How much time do we have? I will start off by saying that, first of all, kudos to you. I have such massive respect for you for putting yourself out in the open and sharing your story like that. That takes a lot of guts, a lot of courage, and it's not easy, but I believe it's absolutely necessary and crucial to lean into our vulnerability in order to really develop that strength and show up as who we are. And I love this concept of showing up. And that's really what it's all about. It's. I was in the same boat. Like, I'd won the biggest scholarship that UT has. I had won other multiple awards and scholarships at university. I was getting this recognition left, right, and center, and there was small university media and community media that wanted to interview me. So I would always say, yeah, it's so awesome, and I won the scholarship and this is what I'm going to do with it, and I'm going to be a professor and all of that. I was almost, like, adamant that my success is going to mask my shame and the discomfort that I felt about my past. So that's the Samra that I wanted to portray to the world. And through that, I was once asked to share my story. My friend's mom. And that was the first time. And I initially was like, no way. Like, this is too shameful. It's too traumatic. And at that time, my daughter, in fact, who was 11 years old, My older one, said, mom, if every woman thinks it's too shameful and traumatic, how will this change? I think you should speak up. So I did. And big, big part. She still is. So I ended up writing or sharing the story. And that blog got published on my convocation day. And I came home, logged into my Facebook after getting my degree, which was already a very emotional moment for June 10th of 2013. And I came home, logged into Facebook, and it was flooded with thousands of messages from people all over the world thanking me for breaking the silence, congratulating me like a woman writing to me, this is my story and it's happening to me right now. And I was about to kill myself today. Your story came to me at the right time. Thank you for saving my life. There were women locally who reached out. Can I get a cup of coffee? Can I talk to you? And one woman, I started Mentoring her, and her story was just heartbreaking. She was going through that abuse, and her confidence was rock bottom. Her family wasn't supporting. So just through conversations, I encouraged her, motivated her. And she ended up leaving and finishing her MBA and is now happier than ever. And I saw what just showing up and sharing and offering connection and offering that helping hand can do. Because even when I looked back at my journey, I tried to leave my marriage. Five times. I went back. The final time that I did not go back was because of the support that I got from my university community. The friends who showed up at my door with ice cream after eating my butter chicken and telling me that they're with me in those dark times are my professors, who motivated me in their office hours, and my mentors who helped me make those decisions. So the community was a huge part of not going back. People often say leaving is such a hard step. I say, no. Staying away is harder because it really is. Like, once you leave, you are now faced with all kinds of intimidation and uncertainty, and you feel like, how am I gonna actually make it? And roadblocks come your way, and you're lacking life skills. And like, I went to university as a mature student and a mother of two, and I was like, I don't know anybody. I don't have friends. Like, everybody seems to know everyone. And then people are talking about, oh, in order to get a job, you have to be good at networking. What even is that? Like, what is networking? And I didn't know how to get a car fixed. I didn't know how to get credit card. I didn't even know how to do basic things that other people just seem to take for granted. And it was very debilitating at times that I just have these gaps. I can't make it. So that's when a lot of people end up going back. A lot of women end up going back. It's kind of like, you know, when you take someone out of prison and put them in the middle of the city, hey, you're free. Go live your life. Guess what they do. They reofend and they go back because that's what they know. That's their comfort zone. So that's what I wanted to do and help survivors build better lives. So I started mentoring. I started a mentorship program, which is a nonprofit organization that I now run with other women who are mentors. Every time I help someone, every time I touched one more life, it reignited a fire in me to touch more. And it just, like, snowballed from there. So small community events, which I would go and speak for free. I would just say, hey, give me the mic for 10 minutes. I have something to say. Maybe there's one person in the audience who can be impacted. For four years, I never got paid a dime. It was all on my own cost and time. But I just kept doing it for the love of it. And then a piece had written somewhere, got picked up by a big magazine. It's called Toronto Life, that went viral in 2017. Then I got my book deal, and now the book is being made into a film. But the purpose of it remains the same, that there's one more life that I can touch. And a man writing to me from Pakistan and saying, my daughter is 17. Her wedding is fixed for next month. I read your story. I'm canceling the wedding and sending her to school. That is the biggest award. It far surpasses John Moss or Top hundred or anything.

Yeah. That changes lives, literally.

That's why I do what I do. And I wake up to dozens of these messages every single day. That's my oxygen. That's my soul food. Does it feel uncomfortable to put myself out there? Absolutely. Like, I work in banking. There's no other conservative, much more conservative environment than Canadian banks. You would know that.

It's pretty conservative.

When the Toronto Life article got published, that was like the first big deal. Like, before that, I was doing small things, but in 2017, I had massive anxiety going to work the next day that how are people going to see me? They're going to think I'm just a sob story. And I'm using that to get ahead. And they won't respect me for my work anymore. The fact that I'm actually able to structure commercial deals that won't be respected because my story will overshadow. And there was all this kind of like, I don't want to be vulnerable. I don't want to see this weak. I don't want to. This is what society teaches us. Right. This is what we are conditioned from a young age, that we need to be strong and invincible and all of that. And that's what power looks like. I say no. Power looks like being vulnerable. Power looks like putting yourself out there and saying, hey, I'm not perfect. I'm learning. Come and learn together. Power looks like being okay to show up in wherever you are, at whatever place you are in your journey, because there will be so many others that you'll impact. Impact. Power looks like empowering others. That's what real power is. It's not about leadership or hierarchies or titles or number of awards on your shelf or amount of money in your account. It's about how you're touching other people, how you're making a difference and what legacy are you leaving behind. And that's the lens that I operate from. And every time I get some more recognition, for me it's like, okay, this is another platform now to do more work.

It's sharing, it's spreading. And on that subject. Exactly. On the subject of being vulnerable and putting yourself out there, you're writing a book right now with your daughter. And you know, we have to wrap this up here, but I'd love to hear a little bit about this book. Can you tell me a little bit about that? And also I want to make sure that people who are listening right now know how to reach out and find you. I mean, there's going to be a link to your website in the show notes to this episode. But how do people reach out and find you?

Yeah. So, I mean, first of all, the book is in the making, so it'll be a few years before it comes out, but. So my daughter was impacted by the trauma that she experienced witnessing the abuse growing up, and she struggled through mental illness related to that trauma. So it's really about realizing first that I'm not perfect as a mom and then leaning in to get the help and the support and the therapy and the skills that I needed in order to support her in her journey. So it's a mother, daughter perspective, two voices talking together about our journey from being alienated and at odds end to finding each other and developing that bond. If anyone wants to get in touch with me, the best way is through my website. It's just my name, so. Www.samrazarfar.com and there's a contact me page. And you can write to me and I always respond. I may not respond right away, but I will. Right. It's about showing up and it's about being vulnerable. Because I truly believe that when we share our experiences and we bond over those shared experiences, experiences, everything fades into the background. What color our skin is or where we were born or where we come from or what faith we practice, what gender we identify with or who we choose to love, ultimately the humanity that connects us, the power of that is what reminds us that what unites us is far greater than what divides us. And when we operate from that lens of humanity and compassion and empathy, that's what we need to bond with each other, build that collective resilience and that community and then create a better world for each other and for ourselves.

Samra, I've absolutely appreciated and respect your time and hearing your story. I love your energy. You have a beautiful soul. You're inspiring to the world. Thank you for coming out and to everyone listening right now. Please remember to share this episode with your friends. Subscribe to the channel. This is about helping people move forward and move through their challenges. So thank you for tuning in. We'll talk to you next time. Until then, have a Rockin it day. And that's it my friends. For this episode. We will see you next time. Please send me an email, say hello, give me some feedback, let me know what you think, give me some tips and suggestions. I'd love to hear from you. Also, please share this episode with whoever you think needs to hear it. Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, doesn't matter. Just get it out there. I really appreciate it and we'll see you next time on. From rock Bottom to Rocking a trip, have a Rockin it day.