Does Your Business Pass the ”Ugly Baby Test”? Ft. Kathryn Finney

And where a lot of them make massive mistakes, where the failure really comes at from the very beginning, is they confuse what it is they want to do with what the customers need. And they're not focused on servicing the customer. And the first thing I tell people, it's not about you. No one cares about you. I mean, they really don't. Like, it's not about you.

Good day and welcome to the Wealthy Entrepreneur Podcast. I'm your host, Bob Gauvreau. I'm so grateful that you joined us here today. I've got a very special guest that I'm gonna introduce you to in a moment, but I wanna remind you that this is the place where we dissect the elements that contribute to entrepreneurial success, from mindset and leadership to profits and revenue. And today I'm joined by a very, very well-recognized and awarded guest.

Thank you.

Catherine Finney. She's a serial entrepreneur and investor, Wall Street Journal bestselling author of the book Build the Damn Thing. She's the CEO of Build and founder as well. And over the past 2 decades, Catherine has built and exited companies, investing in more than 100 businesses and worked to make entrepreneurship accessible to people traditionally overlooked by the startup world. Catherine is an incredible guest and a joy to chat with for sure. So many accolades, including having her own day, which we're going to talk about here shortly. But at this time, I'm excited to welcome my guest, Catherine Finney, to the show. Welcome to the Wealthy Entrepreneur Podcast. You know, I did just go through quite an impressive introduction because you've accomplished so much, including having your own day, which is really remarkable. I have to ask how I can get my own day, but it seems like I might have to accomplish a few more things along the way to get there. But really would love for you to maybe open this session with sharing how you got started and what took you to where you are today.

Awesome. Well, thanks for having me, Bob. I always love talking with fellow entrepreneurs just about the journey because it really is, it's a marathon, not a sprint. And I say that as someone who's a newbie marathon runner. So I understand. That analogy quite well. But I always like to start with the beginning, which is growing up in the Midwest, in Middle America. I was born in Milwaukee, grew up in Minneapolis. So I'm, like, exceptionally Midwestern in my upbringing. And, you know, growing up in those places where you have, you know, communities that are very pragmatic. I always say to people, you know, in Minnesota, it's too cold to be, you know, have any additional layers. Like, you literally are, like, trying to stay warm, so you can't be too much. But it really taught me a lot about creating community, creating value, what's really important. And I think those things have really helped me in creating sort of my path and my entrepreneurial journey. As you know, I grew up with a very entrepreneurial family. My grandmother was a seamstress.

Oh, wow. Mm-hmm.

She had her own sewing business that she ran out of the house. Like, she took over— her den was like her sewing studio. Um, and it was really cool 'cause I would spend summers with her, and I learned a lot about just business basics. She had one of those black-and-white notebooks. I don't know if anyone remembers. We don't use notebooks anymore, so maybe people don't quite remember that. But, you know, these black-and-white notebooks, and she had her sort of ledger that she would write in hand, like, you know, how much people owed her or how much, you know, she spent on fabric and then how much the notions cost. And it was really fascinating, like, witnessing that. Sometimes she would, like, let me keep her books because I really— I love math. I'm a person who loves forms. I know that sounds very odd, but I love a really good form.

Hey, you're speaking to an accountant by nature. So, like, this is all good. I'm envisioning green ledger paper as you're talking. So, this is okay.

You know exactly what I'm talking about. It's just— The excitement, right? And so, she would let me, like, you know, do math and help keep her books. And it's just really, you know, having a firsthand seat to that, of the labor it takes, of negotiating. She would go to Joann Fabrics, which I don't even know if Joann exists anymore, but it was a place where you would buy fabrics. And she was able to get this hookup with a discount. She wasn't an employee, but they gave her the employee discount, and they would let her know, like, the new fabrics. So, I was witnessing this as a little girl of, like, negotiating, of supply chain, of, like, all of these things. I didn't know that's what I was witnessing, but that's what I was witnessing.

Right.

And then the byproduct is I learned how to sew and how to make my own patterns and things like that. But that really stuck with me that I think many entrepreneurs, if you talk to them, there is this family member, there is this close person that they saw They had the sort of firsthand knowledge, and they also saw the freedom that came with being an entrepreneur. I mean, it's a lot of work, it's a lot of stress, a lot of uncertainty, but then there's also this freedom too, because my grandmother could come visit us whenever she wanted to. She didn't have to ask—

Right.

Someone's permission to come visit us. She didn't have to ask anyone's permission if her granddaughter could come and spend the summer and hang with her while she works. So, she had a certain freedom and flexibility that if she was working a very traditional 9-to-5 with my grandfather, she wouldn't have had that freedom. She wouldn't have had that freedom to control and sort of determine the direction of her life. And so that had a big impact on me. Of course, I didn't immediately go into entrepreneurship 'cause that would've been too logical. I thought I was gonna be a politician. I laugh now.

There's still time. There's still time for that dream.

Oh, no, there isn't. There is not any time of that sort. But, you know, I, like, interned at the White House and did all these sort of things and went abroad and got sick. and that really sort of triggered an interest in public health for me. And then I went to Yale for public health. And, you know, there, I was always entrepreneurial. I mean, my friends who I went to Yale with always make fun of me because I would braid hair on the side while I was in graduate school, and people thought it was so weird. But I was making, like, a lot of money braiding hair, like, in my apartment. Because, you know, when you're a grad student, you're studying, you're doing so much. I didn't have time. I couldn't do a traditional job. Right. Side gig. Like, and at that time, we didn't really have the internet like we have it now. So it wasn't like there was a lot of opportunities where you could do sort of side gig work. And so I braided hair, and it generated good money on my days off or times that I had free time. So I was always an entrepreneur, even though I was going to be an epidemiologist. I was always implementing that. And all of that sort of led to where I'm at now.

Which is very cool. So maybe share a little bit of where you're at now, because I know you've got a few things on the go, but maybe share a little bit about what that looks like today.

Yeah. You know, it's really interesting. I've been a public person for a really long time. Even before the internet was really the internet, before we even knew what, what influencers were. And it's been interesting even for me to look at my journey, you know, starting one of the first blogs, period, by women. Not just fashion blogs, not just women, but one of the first blogs in 2002. And then building that and scaling that and just learning from that. And then starting Digital Navidad, which was one of the first, you know, social enterprises that focused on accelerator and incubator programs. I remember I was a part of one of the early incubator programs in New York City. This was, oh my goodness, almost like 17 years ago.

Ugh.

Yeah, I know.

Time flies when you're having fun.

I mean, that was like, oh my goodness. I'm like, I'm not, I'm old, but I'm not that old. And you know, just kind of going through this process and then starting my own venture fund and, and being an investor. I was, I've been an angel investor for over 20 years, but venture investing is different than angel investing. It's a different lens, a different layer, how you assess companies. All of that's vastly different than an angel. I like to say we're kind of like the baby you can do it money, like the grandma And you're like, here's— You know, you're not necessarily expecting it back as an angel because of the stage in which you're investing. It really is money you can lose. You don't want to lose it, but you can lose it. Whereas venture is a very different lens. Like, you really want to get the return, and that is the primary focus. It's not necessarily the person or the idea. It really is the return is the focus. And so now, you know, running the fund for 6 years and spending a lot of time around AI for the past 5 years, I've really started to kind of ponder this question of what do we do with all the people who are going to be displaced from AI? AI is here. We— I don't think we need to have any discussions about whether— what— whether it's here, what we're like. We're past that. It's here now, and it's disrupting at a rate that I think most people will not be able to sort of grasp and wrap their hands around. I mean, things are just moving so fast. I was saying to a friend the other day, I feel like we're in like kind of Minority Report, that movie that Tom Cruise was in, where it's like, like, I mean, we're, we're, those things are really true now. Right. And so, yeah. So what are we doing? What are people gonna be able to do? Because work is such an important part of people's lives. It's, it's not, just about money. And, and I know in a capitalist society, that's been the focus. It's like you work to get money, but it's also a layer of value. It's about community. It's about more than work. It's more than money. And I start to think about growing up in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, where my dad was a brewery worker at Schlitz Brewery. Some people may know Schlitz Brewery. It's now like a cool hipster beer. But, um, but he, you know, he worked in the factory and The brewery was a community. It was— we did Boys and Girls Clubs together. We— they had amazing Christmas parties. It was a family. And when the brewery shut down in Milwaukee, it devastated the community. The community still hasn't recovered in Milwaukee from the brewery shutting down because it wasn't just a job. It was this network. It was a group of people. It was friends. It was people you saw every day. You spend more time with the people you work with than you do your family oftentimes, right? And so, it gave me a lens And what work means. And so, what I've been doing lately is really working through that and have developed a platform based upon my, my bestselling book, Build a Damn Thing, called BUILD. And I'm super excited 'cause it's some of the most fun I've had in, like, the longest time. Like, we're doing these sort of weekly builds together where we're bringing together people who wanna build something, wanna start a company, wanna start a business, have no clue where to begin, feeling overwhelmed. And we spend an hour and a half— And we build, and we go from idea, name, logo, to an actual working minimum viable product in an hour. And it's so much fun, and it's so much fun to see the ideas that people are coming up with, and they're sort of— the wheels turning in their heads as they start to think of, like, what's next for me? What's the possibility for me in this new world that we're entering in? And that's what I've been working on. I've been having so much fun. It's been interesting going back to being an operator from being an investor.

Yeah. Well, and so what does your time look like in splitting between the two? Because obviously, this new initiative that you've got looks like it's, it's taking AI and helping people implement AI solutions as they're building. You know, I look at my own business now, which we've got around 200 people, and I go, you know what, if I had to rebuild it, it would look different if I had to rebuild it today than it currently looks based on the technology that is available to us. So it seems like it's a really cool lens and perspective to be able to share with people as you're helping. So what is that split from assessing investments and managing those that you have ongoing versus supporting those that are sort of hitting the ground running?

You know, it's so interesting. Like, I, It's often hard for me to answer that, and I'll tell you why. Like, my— the way my brain moves is a little bit different. So my ex-husband says, you know, there's a thing that tells you not to jump off the bridge. There is a, you know, a little voice in your head that says not to jump off the bridge. I don't have that voice. So, so for me, time management, I just process things really quickly, so I don't need much time to, like, sit and think. And so my time management, you know, it's— and also I will say this, being— working with entrepreneurs, whether it's with BUILD, whether it's with my fund, it's not a 9-to-5 sort of thing. Like, I get texts at, like, 9:00 PM of, like, oh my goodness, our server just blew up. I don't know what to do. You know, because it's— being an entrepreneur is a 24/7 job.

It is.

It is not necessarily a 9-to-5 job. I think that's gonna be one of the hardest transitions for people who are in 9-to-5 jobs to go into entrepreneurship. It's not you start at 9, you leave at 5, and you leave everything at, at the, at the office. It doesn't work like that as an entrepreneur. So even as an investor, it doesn't work like that. And particularly investor in startups. And I was saying to someone, you know, people often ask me, where's your office? And I was like, Delta Airlines seat 4B. That is literally Because like, that is literally— if you want to know where I spend most of my time, it is Delta Airlines seat 4B, because my investments are across the country, across the world. So as an investor, yes, we do conversations, but I also need to like go to where they're at. And so I spend a lot of time with that, a lot of time networking. But if I have to say what I'm having the most fun doing right now, it's definitely the sprints is getting back to sort of the older work I did, even being an operator again, which is something I hadn't been for a while, and just getting kind of used to that. That has been really interesting. I find myself like, oh, I'd say this to my investments, maybe. Like, you know, oh, now I get it. Okay, I remember. And I think it's also— I actually think All investors should either be an operator or at some point have been an operator because you have an idea of what it takes to actually build something, which is different than investing in it, right? And being able to look at it from this global view. It's different when you're in it, right? And you're like, you know, you have to— I was saying to someone, you're, you're not a true CEO until you've had to fire someone.

Yeah. Yeah. That's true.

Like, right? Like that, that is, if you are human, right? And you have a sense of humanity.

Yeah. Yeah.

It is not firing. Firing someone is not fun. It is not. It's necessary sometimes, but it is not something I particularly enjoy doing. But, you know, so then as an investor, when I say to someone, well, you know, you have a lot of overhead or a lot of, you know, what, what are these jobs doing? Can you map it to their productivity? I also have to have an understanding and I have an understanding of that is a human being behind that number. And like, there's a sensitivity that you need to have. And when you talk about restructuring and things like that, that you can only have if you've been an operator.

Absolutely. Now, you made a comment earlier, I wanna go back to it. The discussion around entrepreneurship not being 9 to 5. And I know when COVID took place, right, there were a lot of people that were a little bit displaced in their 9 to 5 jobs. And there was this massive insurgence of entrepreneurship that was almost like a requirement for people to be entrepreneurial, to try and provide for their families. And we sort of saw the lack of success rates or failure rates increase, lack of success dropping, because a lot of the people were 9 to 5, but they didn't understand that entrepreneurship really is a, like, it's a 24/7 thing. You can't You can't shut it off. And it, let me say this too, it doesn't get easier as you get larger and start to grow. Like it becomes more. What has been your success with seeing people coming into your, your new program? Are people coming in with an expectation of 9 to 5 and, and thinking entrepreneurship sounds fun? Or are people really embracing it to say, you know what, I'm all into creating something because One of the challenges I've, I've seen is when people start saying it's like their side hustle, that they're not, they're not really all in. And I think entrepreneurship really requires that true emotional investment. What are your thoughts?

Well, I think there's a couple of things I find, and I found even during COVID during COVID I created a, it's a nonprofit, it's my primary philanthropy, but we gave what were like micro grants to over 2,000 women of color entrepreneurs. I mean, we hacked the system together using like Asana and like Airtable. I mean, it was really crazy.

Amazing.

6 years later, we still laugh about it 'cause I mean, it was crazy that we were able to do it. One of the things that I see with early entrepreneurs, not just in my program, but just in general after doing this for 20, 25 years, is that, and where a lot of them make massive mistakes, where the failure really comes at from the very beginning is they confuse what it is they wanna do with what the customers need. And they're not focused on servicing the customer. And the first thing I tell people, it's not about you. No one cares about you. I mean, they really don't.

Like, it's not about you. Your mother, your mother does. Maybe your children, but— Your mother does.

Even your mother might be like, I don't know, you know, like at some point it's— but it's not about you. It's about the service you provide to someone else. Do you— do you solve someone's problem? Are you solving someone's problem?

Mm-hmm.

And are you solving it at a level in which they will pay you a premium for? So, whatever, you know, cost of goods, but like, to simplify it to people, I say, are they paying you more than it costs for you to actually do it, plus a little bit more, right? Like, so whatever it costs, you know, your Claude, your Riverside subscription, your, you know, whatever it is that it takes for you to do what you do, Plus, I don't know if you want to add 20%, 30%, 40% more. Like, is people willing to pay you that? Because if not, then it's a hobby. It's not a— it's not a business. And so you have to think in that sort of way. And so the goal is, am I providing a solution that people are going to actually pay me for with a profit? And are they going to pay me for at scale? Like, and that's the thing that I find like a lot of people have a problem with because when you come from a traditional 9 to 5, you don't have to think that way. You're gonna get a paycheck as long as you show up for work, right? This is different, right? It's like you have to be very clear what we call in the startup world product-market fit, that you have a product that the market wants and wants to pay for.

Mm-hmm.

And it sounds so basic, But a lot of people come into entrepreneurship of like, I want to do this, or, oh, I love baking cakes. That might be true, and you might make amazing cake. I love cakes. But you might not make cakes that people want to buy. Your cakes might just be okay.

Well, I think that's the second layer. The second layer of it is the actual delivery and sharing of why you're building something of value that people want. Like, You're right, you might build the best cake in the world, but if you don't know how to show people that you build the best cake in the world, you know, if the cake value that you can demonstrate is $1,000 a cake and you're going to sell it for $900, people feel there's a discount, they will buy. But if you're selling a cake for $900 and they feel like it's worth $20, no one's going to buy from you. And I think the ability to relay the information and the value of what you do is also important stacked on solving those problems. Like, you solve them, but show people how important it is and how it will change their life in a positive way. And now you've got something that's, that's really valuable.

And it's very humbling too, because you have to take ego out of it. And that's really hard for a lot of people. Like, being an entrepreneur is like the most humbling thing. I mean, people will just say things to you that are sometimes nice, and then sometimes things are just not very nice. It's very humbling. And you can't take it personal because many, they don't know you, right? They— it's not, it's not a personal thing. It's like a reaction to your product. But I think for a lot of people, it's very hard to hear what we call your, you know, the ugly baby test, that your, your baby's ugly. I'm a mother. My son is actually quite adorable. So he's not— but, but, you know, no one thinks their baby is unattractive, though. And especially when it comes to entrepreneurship and business, you think your baby is the most beautiful baby ever. And particularly the people who are closest around you, they don't want to tell you that your baby's ugly. Your friends, your family, they love you, and they want you to succeed, and they don't want to be the person that, you know, douses out the fire of your entrepreneurship endeavors. But you got to get to that. You got to get to the truth, right? At some point, to hear, like, your baby's ugly, so then you can make it better, right? That's the whole point of hearing it. It's like, okay, how— what do I need? You know, to do for my baby? Do we do, you know, Kardashian-level plastic surgery, or do we, you know, like—

I was wondering how deep down the metaphor you were gonna go, and I appreciate it. Right, that deep.

But, but as an entrepreneur, your goal is to get that information quick because you don't wanna waste time, you don't wanna waste money. And so, you wanna know what exactly is wrong so you can fix it. And so, you put your ego to the side and say, okay, so I'm hearing this from the customers. This is what's working. This is what's not working. Okay, let me Let me fix what's not working now that I know that it's not working. And let me see what impact it has on, on the product, what impact it has on marketing, what impact it has on whatever, and measure it. But it's really hard when you're starting out to hear that sort of feedback, especially since many people haven't heard that sort of feedback that's not, you know, put between a feedback sandwich, you know? Like, it's like, and online you don't get a feedback sandwich. They just pretty much tell you what it is. Yeah.

Well, and it's funny too, Catherine, because with, with your level of success, I'm sure you've seen this as well, where, you know, you've got an image of success that's portrayed outward. You know, we've got social media that we try and put our best foot forward on social media in many cases. So, you know, you get your close circle who look at your image and your success, and they also don't want to keep telling you how good you are. It's like it's portrayed out to the world. So sometimes entrepreneurship gets a little lonely and you question your success as well.

Yeah.

And really all you do hear is the negative at some instances, right? Where people will be like, oh, well, we don't need to tell Catherine how great she is. She knows that. But we will tell Catherine that her baby is looking a little ugly these days. Right? And so that, that is a challenge of entrepreneurship too. Like it's not, you know, we always see those images, those metaphor images of the iceberg where the tip of the iceberg is above the water, but all the The chaos, the size, what carries it is underneath and no one gets to see that. You know, the entrepreneurship opportunity, I guess, is to try and, you know, create that success. Also have confidence in yourself because it's not always that pretty and you don't always get, you know, sunshine and roses. In fact, the majority of time is grinding and, and pushing hard to, to try and realize some level of success. So. I completely know what you're saying. And, you know, everybody's gotta hang in there because it's not an easy game.

It's not an easy game. Like, and it's, it's really interesting. I'm, I'm training for the Chicago Marathon, and it is very similar to marathon training. And these, all these things that happen to you that no one quite tells you about before you start the training. I'll, I'll share one that was something that kind of threw me off, which was, you know, you lose toenails. I did not know that was a thing.

Okay. I did not know that either.

And I have great friends that have ran, you know, all the masters, have like run, you know, 5, 6 marathons a year. And they're like, oh yeah, that happens. I'm like, well, why didn't you tell me that before? And one of my friends said, but that wouldn't have stopped you from doing this. And I'm like, well, yeah, but I mean, You know, and it's similar with entrepreneurship of like the journey. You know, it's all of this work. You are training, you are working so many hours during the week just to get this sort of incremental wins, right? Like this incremental wins. Then all of a sudden you're at the big, the big race, and then you're, you're crossing the finish line a little bit bruised, missing toenails, sweaty, hungry, like, you know, all that stuff.

Right. Yeah. The weather might be terrible.

Right? That very few people reach.

Yeah.

And you get there, and it's this euphoria of like, oh my God, I can't believe I just did this. And you look back on all the things you did to get you to that point, that winning point, and it's just this appreciation of how strong you are as a human being and what you're capable of. And entrepreneurship is very similar in that way of like looking back of all the things that you have to do because you really— I mean, there are moments, there's family trips that you will miss, There are birthdays that you will miss. There are, you know, there's financial challenges that come. There are all sorts of things that you have to deal with. But when you reach those milestones, those high points, it just makes them even sweeter. It makes it even better. And you're like, wow, look at what I've been able to do. And it's just such— it's such a euphoria, such a high.

Let me ask you this question, Katherine, because this is, this is a unique thing about you that I have not heard of in too many people. In the borough of Manhattan, February 26th is Katherine Finney Day. Um, how did this come about? What does this stand for? I, I need to know this story.

Oh my goodness. So I, I do like to remind my son of that. Um, that his mom has it. Anytime he's like not being the nicest, it's like, look, your mom has a day in Manhattan, so you need to get it together. Um, no, I, It came about, you know, a lifetime of doing work that I am— I don't even think, again, you know, that telling you not to jump off a bridge. I don't even think about doing the work. I just do it because it needs to be done, and I could do it. So, when we did the Dooney Fund, which is named after my grandmother, to invest in primarily Black women entrepreneurs in the height of the pandemic, it was because I had a family trip that was canceled. It was going to Alaska. I still don't think that cruise has left to this day. But I got a refund, and everyone in my family was good. I was so blessed and honored and privileged that, like, everybody I knew was okay during the COVID So I had this block of money, and I was like, let me do something for someone else. 'Cause I couldn't go visit my grandmother. I couldn't do these other things. And so, just started because I could. There was no one saying that I couldn't. It was my money. And then it scaled so rapidly. You know, has impacted— so far, we've given out over 3,000 grants over the past 6 years. The response has been enormous. I didn't start off thinking I was gonna get the response, but I've had— even to this day, I will be at conferences, and people will stand up and say, I'm a Dooney. I was at this conference, this private equity conference, right, which is not where you think you're gonna find— ...necessarily people who have benefited from philanthropy, at least not, you know, personally.

Right.

And someone stood up and was like, Kathryn, I just have to thank you because during the pandemic, I was doing X, Y, and Z, and I'm a Dooney recipient. And so, I say that to say the accolades are not— I don't look— I'm proud of myself, obviously, of them, but they're not kind of— I don't do what I do for them. It's just I'm doing because I can do it. So, if I can help someone, And again, this is very Midwest pragmatic. Like, if I can help you, I'm going to help you. Why would I not help you? Like, it's like growing up in sort of this very Minnesotan sort of like, I'm just going to help you because, like, I can. Like, why would— it's weird to not help you if I can help you, right? And it's a very different way of thinking. I'm real— I have an appreciation for my upbringing a lot more because a lot of people don't think that way.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

But you are almost required. Like, if somebody's hungry and I have food, why wouldn't I give you food? Like, it's just— and so, all of the day, all the other things that have come has been really because of this upbringing and because of my family and because of my community really instilling in me this idea of, if you can do good, do good. Like, what— why are you not going to do good? And then at the end, sort of these recognitions come, and it's like, oh my gosh. Again, I can't believe I just did that. Like, you know, I did— I wasn't thinking. To get a day, you can't apply. Like, someone has to determine it for you. And it was because of all the work I had did in, you know, creating opportunities for more people, particularly more women and more women of color, To be able to participate in our economy, to be able to build and create. And I think the world is such a better place when there's more of us creating rather than destroying. Entrepreneurship is that way. We're creating something. We're building things that people need and want and help enrich their lives. And so, I think that's where the awards come from and the recognition comes from. And it's always like, fun because they're never— I've never expected to receive them ever. No, I'm always like shocked. I'm like, really?

Okay.

Thank you.

Like— But I'll take it.

I'll take it. I mean, of course, it's like really cool. I'm looking at the proclamation, like, right in front of me. I would say for other entrepreneurs, you know, make sure that you take moments to celebrate your wins. I mean, to celebrate yourself. Because this journey is so hard, it could feel a little bit— if you don't take time to celebrate your wins, it can feel a little bit depressing. It can be a little bit depressing.

Yeah. Yeah.

So, celebrate the wins, no matter how small they are. It could be, wow, we just got our first customer. Or, you know, wow, this month is the first month we're breaking even. And, like, do whatever it is to celebrate. Is it, you know, go buy yourself a cake, or go have a great dinner, or go spend time with your family? But, like, set it up so that you're those sort of points of celebration. I think that's very, very important and to be very intentional with that during the entrepreneurship journey so that you're not so focused on doing the work that you don't recognize your own journey, your own growth, and how far you've gone. I think that's very, very important to have those sort of very intentional celebrations there.

I think finding the community of people who will celebrate that with you is, is important as well because it does get really lonely where, you know, you've got a team and you can't necessarily share all wins with all people. You know, some people don't want to hear your wins and don't want to hear about your success and maybe might not even be cheering for you, but find your tribe of people who, who will celebrate you and that you can celebrate them. You know, it really makes the journey way more enjoyable, which is why, you know, we continue to try and create communities of entrepreneurship everywhere we go as well.

You know, one of my favorite quotes is Align yourself with people who love themselves so they don't hate you. And I just think that's such a powerful quote of, you know, of aligning yourself with people who are doing stuff and building, people who feel good about who they are as people. Because as you grow and you scale and you get more successful, Those people are gonna not resent you for it, for what you're doing, or not try to undermine you. I mean, I think it's really important to be, again, very intentional with— and I think intentionality becomes much more important when you're an entrepreneur, actually, than when you're working a traditional 9-to-5, of the spaces you're in, because your energy is so limited that you can't have your energy going to things that are not going to—

Mm-hmm.

enhance you and your life in some sort of way. I always say to people, 'cause, you know, one of the things when you're a public person, people think you have, like, a lot of free time. I don't know why they think that. Like, I'm like, I don't know why you think I have, like, so much more time than other people. But, you know, one of the things I've really had to do is, like, even create sort of layers between me, which is really hard 'cause I like— I actually like people. So—

Yeah.

But I realize that I cannot be— that accessible because there's only 24 hours in a day, and I have other responsibilities. So, one of the things I did, my mother has been, like, an amazing, like, layer between sort of me and family members, and even other people. And I always joke, you know, she had a particular set of skills. She's like Liam Neeson from, you know, Taken. She has a particular set of skills that's been developed over many years.

Mm-hmm.

But, you know, So, people will say, I need to talk with Catherine. And my mother will say, why? Like, why do you need to talk to her? Like— and she acts as a barrier so I don't have to be the mean person. I don't have to spend that energy. And so, finding people who can be kind of almost blockers and barriers is particularly when you're building, you don't have a lot of free time. And then when you get to a certain level of success, you're gonna have people who are gonna want to access whatever capital you have or may not have. One of our founders, she had just completed her Series A round where she'd raised like $10, $15 million. Significant round. Significant round. Family members thought that she had $10 or $15 million. And she was like, no, I don't have $10 or $15 million. That was $10 or $15 million that goes into my company that has to last, and it's to pay salaries and to build stuff. But people thought she had $10 to $15 million, right?

Right.

And so, it was really stressful for her. And I was like, do you have someone in your family that can be an enforcer for you to block that? And she's like, my brother. I was like, call him up, ask him if he will serve as that layer for you so that you can just focus on building your company and you don't have to answer 10, 15 texts about like, you know, can I borrow this? Can I do this?

Can I do this?

And so about maybe 6 months later, we were talking. She's like, oh my God, that was like the best advice. My brother is like, loves his job of saying no. He's found creative ways to say no. He's like, I, he just loves it. He's like, this is so much fun. Like a bigger enforcer.

Absolutely. Yeah.

But, but you need that. as an entrepreneur, you need to be very intentional about who you have around. You need to create your own personal advisory board. This is different than your advisory board or your board of directors for your company. These are the people who are in the business of you as a person. And I talk about this a lot in Build a Damn Thing of, like, the type of people you need in your advisory board. You need someone who's a comedian who can make you laugh because you're gonna need to laugh. You need someone who, when you call them up, they're joking. just hilarious. For me, that is— that's my son. He's just hilar— he's 10, so he has like all the, you know, weird 10-year-old jokes and stuff. And, you know, being around him and his friends where they have these debates about whether monkeys should like be able to wear clothes, I mean, it's just like, you know, if you're like— This is so different than me trying to help a founder determine whether or not they have enough Runway to get 6 ones, you know? But it— it's that laughter, the person who's the enforcer, the person who's a truth teller. You need a truth teller, someone who tells you your baby's ugly, or tells you, you know what, you're not being at your highest and best right now, and who you listen to because you know that person loves you. They're not telling you to be mean. They're telling you because they want you to be your best. You need that personal advisory board around you as you build. It becomes very, very important. The person who just listens, like, and just doesn't give any advice or anything. You could just call, and when you just have a day where you just need to rail off, and you can't share it with your team, you can't go off on your team because your team needs you to be the leader. You need that external person where you can call and say, you know, girl, let me just tell you what happened. And I just need to, like—

Yeah, for sure.

...vent about this. But that becomes really important. And so, as entrepreneurs, creating this intentional space, who's around you, the places you're at, where you do your work, creating an environment for yourself that really helps you get to that next level is very, very, very important. I think that's even more important than your business model canvas and your business plan and things like that, is the people around you, the spaces you occupy is so important.

And so, Kathryn, what's next for you? I need to know this. Where are you going? What's the exciting quest that you're on now?

I'm writing my next book, which has been really fun. It's, you know, Everybody's Entrepreneur is the name of it, because everyone's an entrepreneur now.

Yeah.

Continuing to do the build sprints with people, that's been so much fun. And it's gotten me back to, like, again, my other work that I used to do, even reminded me when I was in the incubator and just sort of building with community. It's something about building together with other people who are also trying to build. It's just really, really— And, you know, continuing to invest at the venture level in particular, that's always just super interesting for me. And just really focusing on how do we help people make this transition. I think this is gonna be one of the most important questions from a workforce space over the next, you know, 3 to 5 years of what do people do now?

Yes.

Work is important. It is important. It creates value, it creates self-awareness, it creates self-esteem, you know? And so how do we help people make this transition where everybody now has to be an entrepreneur?

That sounds exciting.

It is. It's fun. I'm, I'm having fun.

Catherine, this has been such a great conversation. In fact, I don't even know that I, I looked at my outline of things to talk about 'cause we got off track of everything, but we talked about so much. So thank you for your time, your insights. This has been so much fun.

That's the perks of talking to a Minnesotan. We can talk. There'll never be blank space, dull space ever. Yeah.

Awesome.

Thank you so much, Bob.

Absolutely.

This was fun.

Yeah, I know. This was great. And for everybody, thank you guys for joining us today. This has been the Wealthy Entrepreneur Podcast. Uh, just as a reminder for all of you who are listening, give us a like, give us a follow. We have an episode coming out every single week. We're going to put all Catherine's links in because we want you to connect with her. We want you to get a copy of her book. Build the Damn Thing, and to follow all the insightful things that she shares. And honestly, we're here together because we feel the power of entrepreneurship and truly believing that entrepreneurs are the positive change in the world that we need right now, especially right now with everything that's going on. And so what we're here to do is to empower entrepreneurs with the financial confidence that they need to succeed. So if there's any information that you found in here in this Share it out, right? We want to help impact as many people in our community as possible. If you have any questions or comments, drop them in the notes as well. And once again, thank you for joining us. Look forward to seeing you again next time.