Brandon Williams & Nick Van Exel Interview | Top Shelf with Devin Harris LIVE | Podcast

Welcome everyone to the Top Shelf Podcast presented by Hennessy.

We're gonna call this the Top Shelf Podcast, the Point Guard Edition. We've got some great point guards up here. Nick, I know you don't like this, but he said I was Western Conference Player twice. I'm pretty sure it was both games against San Antonio.

That's it?

Yeah. Love seeing you. Obviously, Brandon is an upcoming player as well. I know the coaching staff and the city is excited to have you as on a full, no longer two-way, regular player. Congratulations on that. We'll start with Nick. We're going to start college. Was Cincinnati always a choice for you?

No. So back at the time I was coming out, I didn't get recruited a lot coming out of Wisconsin, small town in Wisconsin, Kenosha, Wisconsin. So a bunch of small schools out of Ohio was recruiting me and small schools out of Wisconsin. So I pretty much said, I'm gonna roll the dice and go JUCO. And when I made that decision to go JUCO, I didn't know what the hell was gonna happen. So I ended up coming actually down here to Athens, Texas, Trinity Valley, about an hour outside of here. And so I spent 2 years there. So it was 2 schools that was really recruiting me. One was Cincinnati, the other was New Mexico State. New Mexico State was really good at that time. And it's crazy 'cause I was actually writing schools. You know, I wrote Jim Boeheim, I wrote Denny Crum at Louisville, like, man, I wanna come hoop for y'all. I ain't getting no response. So I had 2 schools, Cincinnati, New Mexico State. And the only reason I chose Cincinnati was because they was going into a new conference. They played Marquette, you know, right in my backyard, and DePaul right in my backyard. So that was the main reason why I chose Cincinnati.

And what led to the team's success in having back-to-back deep March Madness The success was because we were—

we had talent and we had grown-ass men, right? So when you talk about the era now, if you think about NIL, right? NIL, they don't want high school players right now. Colleges, I should say, they don't want high— they want guys with experience. So they going into the transfer portal, going to get guys with 2 or 3 years under their belt. And that's how we were. We were junior college players.

Right.

So, you know, we were grown-ass men playing against, you know, freshmen. You know, we 22, 23, you know what I'm saying? So we kind of had an advantage until we ran against, you know, the Fab Five.

And Brandon, you took a unique path to the league. What did you learn from your previous stops in the G League and your two-way contracts?

Yeah, I learned a lot. I'd be lying to you if I said it was an easy road for sure. There's a lot that goes into it. Starting off in the G League alone, traveling is crazy. Sometimes you landing in some of these places middle of the night, you know what I mean? And it's commercial too, so it's like, it's just a lot. But it shows you a lot when you're with your teammates and that camaraderie, just being together on the road and just gelling with the guys. Them the times that I will never forget from the G League for sure.

Nick, you were drafted 37th by the Lakers. How did that motivate you for your career, being drafted in the second round?

Man, that's crazy because I don't think that really motivated— I think what motivated me was the couple teams that passed, which is like Indiana, Charlotte. You know, when they tell you, okay, we're gonna get you at, you you know, this number. So the motivation really for me wasn't about where I got selected, 'cause I'm from Kenosha, Wisconsin, and I'm trying to hoop. And I got drafted to the Lakers, like, what do I got to be upset about? You know what I'm saying? So—

The home team.

Yeah. I didn't have a lot of motivation as far as that was concerned, only when I played Indiana and Charlotte. Like, for me, it was the love of the game.

Right.

Like, I played on the playgrounds growing up, no shoes, all that kind of crazy stuff. So, man, second round to the LA Lakers, man, I'm good.

Brandon, what is it like playing for a Hall of Fame coach, Hall of Fame player that was a point guard as your coach in Jason Kidd?

It's actually crazy. I was just talking to my mom the other day. My first jersey was a J-Kidd jersey. It was the All-Star jersey. It was going diagonally. I wish I still had it, but it's actually crazy. I can go to him about anything. Literally, we had practice today, and after practice, I'm just chopping it up with him and AD, just point guard stuff, you know what I mean? Y'all know how it is. Just where do you want the ball? How do you like the ball? You know, before the season starts, before we get this thing jumping, I need to know, you know what I mean? It was good. It was fun. He's in my backyard. J-Kidd's right there. I can pop into his office, literally talk about anything, not even basketball related. You know, we be— I'm trying to get into golf a little bit. I know you know that as well. So I just chop it up about just some random stuff. And as a point guard, it's good to have that chemistry with your coach for sure.

Nick, you have a nickname, Nick the Quick. Where did that come from?

I think it was Chick Hearn. He was the broadcaster for the LA Lakers, you know, back in the day when I first got there. And yeah, it was Nick at Night. It was all kind of crazy names, but I think Nick the Quick was the one that he, he gave me. And that one pretty much stuck.

It stuck for sure. Brandon, we were talking about a little bit of this upstairs last season. You kind of made your way when Kyrie was out. How did your mindset change once that happened? And walk us through what that was like for you and seizing that opportunity to play well when obviously we had a ton of injuries last year. That was like your time, your opportunity. Talk about like what that mindset was.

Yeah, man, it was almost unbelievable. I know for Mavs fans everywhere, it was almost like, damn, another injury, another this, you know what I'm saying? We felt it even in the locker room, but I mean, the main thing that they preach to us and kind of tell us is just having that next man up mentality, and that's literally, I took that to heart. So obviously I wasn't playing as much earlier, but I knew the work that I did behind the scenes was never gonna go unnoticed. If nobody was watching at the time, I knew eventually it was gonna get out there. And then I credit the guys that were around me. Shamgod, Vinnie, Riley Cream, Keith, all those guys in my little inner circle, my player development circle, kept me ready. So I just credit them guys more than anything for sure.

And we had talked a little bit about this, something that you didn't know, and I am curious about this answer too. When, at what point in your career, and I guess the reason why, and for those of you that don't know, Nick used to shoot free throws 4 feet further than he needed to, which to me is the craziest thing I've ever seen. But also, we were talking about a 90% free throw shooter. So one, what was the decision of moving back and, and what went into that?

So I think I was in Denver and I was more of a 3-point shooter than a mid-range shooter, right? So it just felt so much comfortable when I was just back off that line. So I was in practice one day and all of my free throws that I missed would hit the back of the rim. So I'm like, man, I need to try something different, you know what I'm saying? So I literally just backed up in practice and Dan Issel was my coach and he was like, what the hell you doing? 'Cause I was shooting them like that in practice, just trying it out and I was making them. So I just literally started doing it when I was in Denver, started in practice 'cause I would always hit the the back of the rim, it just felt more comfortable, like a more comfortable shot. So stuck with it.

That about 20 feet free throws?

Devin, I didn't count it, Devin. I just—

Well, let me ask you too, like—

It's kind of like a feel.

No jump.

But like, how do you pick a spot, I guess is my question? Because the line is typically where you measure. So like when you're backing up, what are you looking at to like measure? Like, okay, I'm gonna line up right here.

It literally was no measure. I just knew, I don't know if you all know, like it's a nail in the middle of the free throw line. It's a nail. So I knew where the nail was and my mental just like, okay, this is where it feels good at. You know, so it wasn't like it was just like one specific spot. You know, I had a coach who always would tell me, you know, before the game, like, let's go out and get a marker. and mark the spot. You know, that was cheating. But sometimes we did it, sometimes we didn't. So it was more of a feel.

Brandon, this is for you and more to piggyback off the last question. Seizing that opportunity, playing well, what did you learn most about yourself going through that process?

I learned a lot. Just the overall experience of just playing real rotational minutes in the NBA, real meaningful minutes. You know, I'm actually playing for something, you know what I mean? It's not just go out there and you're playing with your friends and you're just hooping, you know what I mean? You're actually playing for a goal. You're watching film. You're doing all this little stuff. So I took a lot out of it. Ultimately, what I took out of it is I belong. And that's something that I questioned earlier in my career. But now that I'm in it, talked to the right people, worked on my game, gained a lot of confidence, obviously, and we still going.

That's what's up. Nick, you first joined the Mavericks. It was a team on the rise. And I have to say, that was my favorite team watching you guys playing for Nelly. The structure— well, lack of structure there is of how you guys played. But just talk about like what was like stepping into that locker room with Dirk, Nash, Fin, and just having the success that you had on that team?

It was crazy, man. I'm not gonna lie. I was, uh, I was nervous at first because— so, so my career had started out with the Lakers, and then when I got traded from, uh, from LA to Denver, like, in LA we were like a championship contender team. Then I go to Denver. When I got there, they had won like 15 games. So now it's like you go from here to here, and then you go to another team that's, you know, on the rise like you said, and you don't want to be the guy that mess up. So that's how I felt when I first came here, like, damn, like, because, you know, I was a little edgy, you know. Finn, one of my best friends, he's a good guy. Dirk and Steve, y'all don't know Dirk and Steve, some crazy Fs, but y'all may not know that, but on the court they were some bad boys, you know what I'm saying? So My thing was, man, I don't want to come here and mess this thing up. So I was kind of like on eggshells my first year. And Nelly, he would always get mad at me. He was like, man, shoot the ball. Like, people think I was just a ball hog, but like, I damn near led the league in assists a couple years in Denver, you know what I'm saying? So when I got here, my role changed because I came off the bench and I had to back up Steve. And Nelly was just like, I want you to score, score, score. So people think that when you get traded, you automatically just go into another place and it just roll— you just roll into it. And that's not the case. Like, you have to figure it out. You have to get comfortable. And it took me, you know, that whole year to get comfortable. And, you know, once I got comfortable, I was good because Nelly was like, I just want you to play. And then like the big 3 with Dirk, Steve, and Fin, they made me feel like I've been there for years. And so once I got comfortable, I was good.

In the 6-man role, like we've seen, like fast forward to Jamal Crawfords and those guys, but watching you, the ability to score 40 off the bench back then was kind of unheard of. But part of that was what Nelly was expressing you to do. And I played with Dirk. He don't really let anybody else shoot the ball like he let you shoot the ball. And he— some of the stories he told me, he was like, if Nick came down and shot a pull-up 3 and he made it, I knew the second time not even to run down there because he gonna shoot it again. Yeah, that was your mentality, right?

Facts. But, but I had to learn that. Yeah, you know what I'm saying? Like, I had that freedom in Denver, and when I got here, I'm like, I'm not to do that because these guys are— they already established. And so I had to figure out my role. And Nelly would literally take me out the games, dog, if I wouldn't shoot. It was crazy.

You just signed a multi-year contract.

Appreciate it. Appreciate it.

Uh-oh.

What the— well, talk me through it. How exciting that was when you got the call. Who did you talk to? Just, just walk us through that, that process of, of signing that first real deal.

How did that feel? It was a crazy process, man. I ain't even gonna lie. I had a lot of emotions going through it, 'cause we're still in the midst of the season, so. But it was good when I initially got that call, and it was through my mans Curtis actually over there. It was real good. It was fun. He called me and my mom on both a 2-way or 3-way call, and I'll never forget. I just, I couldn't really put it into words at the time. My mom was taking all the excitement for me. But it's almost a dream come true. You know, when you're younger, all you do is watch TV, SportsCenter. You're watching all these guys, watching y'all play. So it's really big. It was big to come in the league and finally show that I belong. Not only that, I get to play against LeBron and Dirk and everybody like that. So it was cool. But no, it was good. Like I said, we're in the midst of a season, so it's kind of hard to just sit back down and celebrate and kind of do the things that other people do when they get their contract. But it was a real quick 12 hours of celebration, and then I was trying to get to that playoffs. Back to work. So it was real quick. Back to work.

Nick, you had an epic series against Sacramento in 2003. That team, what was so special about that? Walk us through that series and The atmosphere. And I caught the second end of that because I didn't even know I was in a rivalry when I got here until we played them. I'm like, why are they so angry? Like, what's, what's going on here? It was because the playoff series beforehand. So just walk us through like what the emotions was like of playing in the series like that.

Yeah, it was, it was crazy, man, because the first year I got here, they, they beat us, I think like 4 to 1. They destroyed us, you know what I'm saying? And it's crazy for me, like I do dumb shit. in the summertime. So when they beat us, uh, 4-1, that's that summer I went to the crib and I was working out and I plastered every point guard in the NBA, like, just, you know, in the weight room. And I had Mike Bibby and I had, uh, Bobby Jackson, like, on my bench press. So every time I got on the bench press, look, I'm looking at— I'm trying to get to you boys again, right? So I was praying for one That I didn't get traded. Traded. I was nervous as hell, like, damn, they gonna trade me. But okay, they didn't trade me. So we got to see them again in the 2nd round, and I knew that when I played against them in Denver, what I used to do to Bibby and Bobby Jackson, and the way they did us the previous year when I got to Dallas, I'm like, they can't do us like that again, dog. You know what I'm saying? So My motivation was totally different and it started in the summertime. And yeah, you know, I think they beat us Game 1 and I pretty much let Dirk, Steve, and Fin have it. You know, after Game 1, I asked Nelly if I can talk to the guys and he was like, yeah, go ahead. And I kind of let them have it like, come on, man, we bullshitting. Like, y'all— like, I know for a fact that they can't guard neither one of y'all 3. Right? And when we played the Clippers, who wasn't that good at that time, some of the, you know, not so good teams, like, I see what y'all do. I said— and I called every person out on Sacramento's team at that time. And they had one good defender, which was Doug Christie, who's the Sac head coach right now. That's my guy. I played with him my rookie year in LA. And I told the Big 3, I was like, We ain't losing this series, you know what I'm saying? Like, y'all gotta step it up. Like, I'm gonna be with y'all, but like, we not losing this year to these dudes, man. So I was, I was glad that Nelly actually let me, you know, be a leader at that time because I think we needed it. Because I don't think we were afraid of Sacramento. We just wasn't— we didn't— you know, y'all know how it is. We just like, come on, man. Like, we better than that. So. So, I felt good giving that speech and was able to back it up, so.

Speaking of summer workouts, what's the biggest thing that you worked on this summer to prepare for this upcoming season?

I worked on a lot. I worked on my physical game. I stayed in the weight room as much as possible. One thing I learned that Kyrie kind of shared with me, and he's still sharing with me, is as much as you stay in the weight room, that's going to keep you healthy. And that's kind of a term that I didn't really pick up on. It didn't really make sense to me. But I'm starting to see it every day. I'm feeling a lot more stronger, a lot more physically in shape, as well as keeping my quickness, obviously. But I worked on a little bit of everything— my shooting, my defense, obviously the ball handling. I'm always going to work on that. But anything I can do to help this team. Thanks, Brandon.

Nick, you got any funny stories that you can share with us just from practice or traveling with the team?

I know you got a couple.

What team?

Any team.

A quick story, which is nothing crazy. It's just like, so when I first got here, we talked about just settling in and trying to be comfortable. So my first road trip, with this team. Uh, back, back then it was like 2001, 2002. When you check into a hotel, you will have the, uh, the red light blinking on your, on your phone message. So, you know, you know what the hell it was at the time. So I pick it up and, and I listen to the message, and it was Dirk and Steve. They had some dumbass song, some dumbass song. And, you know, they, of course, they both playing the cigar— the guitar and they singing to me, you know, talking about welcome to the team and all this and all that. So that kind of like was my welcoming moment to this team. And it was cool because it kind of helped me relax a little bit and get, you know, familiar with those guys. But yeah, that was one. We'll keep it PG tonight.

This question is for both of you. I'll start with Nick. Obviously you got drafted by the Lakers. Who was your vet and what rookie responsibilities did you have during that time? You guys don't have the same responsibilities as we used to have back in the day. So I'm curious of what Nick will share.

Yeah, it was, it was, it was different back then. I had James Worthy and I had Sedell Threatt and yeah, so we would have training camp in Hawaii. I would have to go get donuts, I would have to go get coffee, and I would have to get a newspaper. Sedell III, James Worthy, they didn't read the newspaper, they didn't drink coffee, and they didn't eat donuts. Yeah.

Who was your vet when you came in?

For me, it was in— I was in Portland, so my vets was Damian Lillard and Josh Hart. Josh Hart actually I didn't do nothing too crazy. I heard y'all had to do some crazy stuff back in the day, but I mean, a pink backpack.

Yeah.

You know what I mean? You gotta wear a pink backpack. Every flight, you gotta make sure you get the guys Chipotle, Chick-fil-A, you know what I mean? They treat you right though, you know what I mean? They'll get you right at the end of the season, so don't feel like your money's just gone, you know? But yeah, it was that. Josh Hart actually put me onto watches. Damian Lillard showed me a lot of stuff on the court, obviously, The kind of guy he is. So I took a lot from those vets for sure.

So my vet was Mike Finn, right? So like Nick, newspaper, donuts. I had to make sure that Michael's food was ready and ordered room service.

Every day?

Every day.

Oh yeah, no.

I had to take his cars to get washed, which I learned a lot about cars, which is a good thing or a bad thing. What else did I have to do? Team-wise, Popeye's chicken for the flight, every flight. Very specific donut orders. So like, you know, Avery wanted donuts with sprinkles, you know what I mean? Mike wanted chocolate donut.

What would happen if you didn't?

If you— I didn't want to find out.

Like, So, so, so one time for me, what happened when I didn't do it, we went to a restaurant and I got stuck with the bill. Yeah, that wasn't cool.

Can you disclose how much it was?

Well, my rookie year I made $150,000, so I had bought like a little LS400 Lexus at that time, so that took up everything. So, so the bill, the bill, so Of course, we got some of the fellas on the team, some of they homeboys, you got others. So it was a pretty good deal and I got stuck with it. So yeah, that one cool. So I didn't miss no more donuts, newspapers, and coffee. Yes.

Nick, watching how the game has progressed from when you played Coaching in the NBA, how do you think your skill set would fit into today's game?

Man, I debate with people all the time about this, and to me it's really not about a skill set, uh, because I think point guards always can handle and dribble and shoot, you know what I'm saying? Like from back in the day to now. So to me, that's the same. Uh, the thing that's big now is the freedom to do it, right? So when I played, I got Shaq, I got James Worthy, I got Elden Campbell, I got McDyess, I got Tim Duncan, I got Dirk. Like, I gotta throw the ball inside. So I can't dribble the ball 15, 20 times and, you know, try to get mine. So the freedom that, you know, most these guys have now is the difference in guard play. Like, I wish I could shoot 15 3s a game and nobody just even look at me crazy. You know, you shoot 3 3s in a row back in the day, you got it on the sideline going crazy, you know what I'm saying? And you can make 2 out of them, but that was just the game. So to me, like, the freedom of today's game, man, I would love it.

Brandon, obviously you guys returning 13 of 15 players. Obviously, the injuries that y'all dealt with last year hopefully are behind us. Talk about the confidence that's in the locker room right now and the expectation that you guys have going into this year.

Right now in the locker room, confidence? Oh, it's high. It's really high. Ultimately, it starts with our leader, Anthony Davis, and Kyrie. Those two are the head of the snake for us, but as we all know, Kyrie isn't gonna be with us for a period of time, so Like I said earlier, that next man up mentality is just for me just coming in and like I said earlier with Anthony Davis, where do you like the ball? Where do you? So it's just small things like that. You bring in guys who won multiple championships: Clay Thompson, Anthony Davis, Kyrie Irving. So I think ultimately it's the confidence right now is very high. I think everybody, not just us but Mass fans, is waiting for us to get on the court. And showcase what we can do.

And then obviously just give your quick synopsis on what you've seen from Cooper, and I don't think he necessarily has a ceiling right now, but just talk about his game and what Mavs fans can expect going into the regular season.

Yeah, I've really never seen an 18-year-old this polished almost in a while, so just in terms of His defensive IQ, his presence. He's always physically 6'10, can handle the ball. And I just keep saying he's 18 years old, man. I just can't really fathom it. I'm 25, but like 18 though? Like he's still a teen, you know? It's just crazy. But it's good for us to just show him the ropes. He's learning from quality guys, Hall of Famers. You said he got Jason Kidd as his coach. He was placed in a very great situation, you know, early in his career, so.

And I would be doing ourselves a disservice, Nick, if I didn't plug our new podcast. It's called Devin and the Dudes. It'll be on Studio 41. What can fans expect to hear from us on this podcast? They've heard me as a podcaster before on this, but we're adding another Wisconsin great that talks trash with the best of them?

I mean, we're going to have fun, man. We're going to talk about this new-look championship contender Mavs team a lot. You know, we're going to talk about some old stories. We're going to— what we're going to do is, I think what's missing not just in today's game but for our kids is Breaking down basketball. Like, I mean, I'm teaching my daughter right now. She just turned 13. I'm coaching her team and I'll be pulling out my damn hair with these kids because the skill level and talent— Nick, you don't have any hair. You right.

You right.

The skill, the skill level and talent is there in most of these kids nowadays, but The basketball IQ is what's missing. And we're going to— we're going to take a deep dive into why they did this, why they did that, and help people understand the game a little bit better.

Now, this is a combined question for, I guess, all 3 of us to kind of chime into. How do you think the point guard position has changed over the years? Now, Coming up from where Nick came from, like you said, you had big guys that you were expected to throw the ball to, but you were still really talented and you got to show that in spurts. Now with the freedom, I think this has become more of a scoring position. You got to be able to score and to be able to shoot and space the floor on top of keeping the offense organized, getting guys in the right spots. So how do you guys view that from obviously where you started to where he's now? And then Brandon, looking back at what you've seen in the past to where you are now.

Yeah, well, from my perspective, I can only really go off of, you know, highlights and everything that I've seen back then. So, I mean, the point guard position, like you said, it was more of like just set the team, get guys organized. I think Nick said it, throw the ball down low. Mostly you was playing with the guys like a Dirk or Tim Duncan back then or one of them powerful bigs. So it was almost like an inside-out type of game. But as of right now, fast-forwarding, I'm more so in that phase where, you know what I mean, it's like you score the ball and it opens up so much stuff. You know what I mean? But you just gotta know, you know, we say KYP all the time and knowing your personnel and who's out there. So when I'm playing with Anthony Davis and and Gafford and all those guys who's drawing crazy gravity, it opens the game for me and that ultimately helps us, so.

Yeah, for me it was like you had to know all 5 positions. You had to set the table. You know, you got your shooters, you got your post-up guys, you got your slashers. You gotta know everything. You know, now, you know, especially from being a coach, and coaching one of the better point guards in the league in Trae Young, he just, you know, sits up at top and gets a pick and roll and he's going downhill. He either has a lob or he has a corner pass, which is a lot easier, you know what I'm saying? So when I played, it was like you had to have this person, you had to know his game, that person's game, that person's game. You had to be vocal. You had to be a leader on both sides of the court. And it was different. It was different. I wish I played With my man, so you know what I'm saying, we can share some of that money.

We'll be a problem.

And I kind of— I was a little bit after you, Nick. I caught you at your end of career, but like I said, it's all about opportunity. And I'm gonna reference back to when we saw you guys in the playoffs, I want to say in 2006.

Yeah, yeah, we got cheated, but go ahead.

How you get cheated?

We got cheated, but go ahead.

How you get cheated?

Y'all got all the calls. Dick Bavetta literally kissed Dirk in the mouth before the game.

San Antonio is the top-tiered getting-called team that I've ever seen in my life. They never called Tim Duncan for a foul.

Listen, listen, y'all. I know y'all in Dallas, and I was in San Antonio my last year of my career. I wasn't happy, but I was there. And, uh, we playing Dallas in the playoffs, man. The referee walks up to Dirk and kissed Dirk on the cheek. Like, we not finna win this game. And that's how it was the whole series. But go ahead, Devin, whatever you got to say, bro.

So like you said, we're talking about the evolution of point guard and all season long, obviously playing with Dirk. Avery was my coach. It was like, all right, get the ball to Dirk, get the ball to Dirk. I had a few good games against y'all in the regular season, and I think I missed like 45 games that year. And we got to the playoffs, and he was like, forget everything I told you in the regular season. I want you to score. And that was kind of like my coming out party. It was my second year, and I literally just— don't worry about getting the ball to dirt. Don't worry about setting up guys. I want you to be a speed demon out there and just create havoc. And I did that for 5 of the 7 games, and we ended up winning, and we didn't cheat.

No, you didn't cheat. You didn't cheat.

Well, I lived at the free throw line, so I was— no. And I felt bad too, because I was catching you on your last leg and you didn't want no parts of that.

I didn't even have a leg.

What is the mentality of a point guard? What's the mentality he must have when he has the ball? I think it's changed, but when you have the ball, what's your thought process as you're bringing the ball up?

I'm thinking a lot. I'm seeing the floor, reading the floor. I'm seeing who's on the floor for us, who's hot, who hasn't gotten a shot in a while. I think that's very big with point guards. I think people— not a lot of people know is that every time we come up the score— I mean, up the floor, we're just scanning and seeing who hasn't got a shot, who needs a shot. I'm running up the floor. I need to call a play. I need to know all 5 positions, like you said. I need to know where this guy needs to be. I need to know the defense. It's just a whole lot that goes into the point guard position. We could be up here for a while talking about it, but ultimately I think it's just first being a threat. So we're talking about scoring the ball and getting into the paint. But the main thing is just about getting into the paint and then having that trust in the work that you do that's gonna take over and you're gonna make a right play. Quick?

Yeah, everything B said, and I would like to add just For one, as an individual, just confidence. You know, you got the confidence. Like, so when I was coaching, I used to always ask Jeff T, you know, how does the court feel out there? You know, I would ask him like, is it crowded? And if he said, yeah, it feels like it's crowded, that means he doesn't get it yet. Like, if you all look at Chris Paul, Chris Paul plays at his own pace. So he probably thinks They're thinking it's like 2 guys on the court with them, right? So the confidence, once you get the confidence, you're gonna feel like the court is just wide open. You know, that's number one. And then everything Brandon said, of course. And then you gotta know time, score, situation. You know, that's the most important thing because you don't wanna just keep making it a rat race when the game needs to slow down a little bit. So you gotta know that part of the game.

And I think the last question I have, I think it's the most important one. You've all played for multiple teams, right? What stands out about playing here in Dallas? What's so special about it?

Yes, so I played in Portland and then Dallas is here, my second team. So just coming from Portland is a complete, Yeah. Complete 180. Up there, it's raining all the time, and the weather can be a little gloomy. It can maybe mess with your mood maybe some days. And sometimes after practice, it's still raining. It's just, you know what I mean, that emotional thinking into it. But when you come down here in Dallas, it's, first of all, the city, the weather, the people down here, the hospitality that's at The Southern hospitality, I feel like, is really a real thing. You know what I mean? I'm from LA, so I didn't really know too much about it, but when I came down here, I was greeted with it off the rip, especially with the fans. So, I love it down here for sure.

Yeah, for me, when I got here, I kind of knew a little bit about it from my junior college days, but, you know, when I got to the NBA and got to experience it, it was like, it was a championship. City, even though they hadn't won a championship. So that meaning that they wanted to win, like the, the fans in the city, they came out and supported, you know what I'm saying? So when I was in LA, like, we can win like 55 games and shit. Sometimes it's, I think, half empty, you know what I'm saying? Like at the Forum. And when you come here, you know, you're on the come up and you can see that the city and the fans are excited about the come up. And Mark Cuban, he was one of the ones that started the, when you shoot, the echo of the shot.

Yeah.

And that shit was crazy. And that was the thing that got the fans excited when somebody would swish a shot or make a shot. You can like hear it throughout the whole arena. But the fans here and, You know, getting to the playoffs, you could see it and feel it all around the city, whether it's on a billboard, whether it's on like a little restaurant. Somebody may have something, Go Mavs. Like, you can feel that, you know, electricity. So that was cool.

I mean, I loved it so much I came back 3 times, you know what I mean? They traded me twice and I came back for more. And obviously being drafted here, going through that success early on, going through a major trade, they traded for Jason Kidd. Watching them winning championship, I'm like, man, I gotta I gotta get back there. And then obviously we had watching the end of Dirk's career and how that turned out. Being a part of that was was phenomenal. And then they traded me again. I'm like, you know what? Let me let me go back one more time. Let me let me finish this thing out right. But yeah, the city is phenomenal. The fans are diehard, and they hold to a level of expectation where they they expect greatness out there, and that drives you in your summer workouts knowing that. coming into the season, they want you to do well. And I think that's something special about playing in Dallas, whether it's for the Mavs, Cowboys, the Stars. It's unilateral across the city.

Good food too. They got great food down here.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Quick, one more question for you. You were teammates with Avery Johnson. You compete against him as a coach. What's the difference between the two? Him as a player and him as a coach?

Man, why are you asking me that, man?

I'm asking you that because it's important. It's important.

No, Avery is my guy. You know, we had the same agent. We battled against each other every day in the summertime in Houston. I used to live in Houston. And true competitor, man. Like, when you talk about skills and talent, he didn't have no skill or no talent. But Avery Johnson had— he had, you know what I'm saying? He was so smart and he knew the game.

Yeah.

Right? And like, when I tell you we would play against Steve Francis, Steph Marbury, Sam Cassell, all the good point guards back in the day, and Avery was right there locking up, talking crazy. He wouldn't cuss. But he felt like he was cussing just the way he talked. And his coaching style was he didn't take no nonsense, right? He was like, I came from the mud to make it. Like, I've been in— well, it's now the G League. I was in the CBA. I was catching all these charter flights. You know, like, I've been cut 3 or 4 times. Like, that's the approach he had as a coach. You know what I'm saying?

Yeah.

He's one of my best friends, you know what I'm saying? Because he actually started the prayers, Bible studies before we go to shootarounds on the road. And, you know, I was one of his disciples. And, you know, so we got a good relationship, but he was intense as a coach. He was intense.

You have no idea. So, like you said, Rookie, like, my life, first 2 years, because we didn't draft a rookie, so I was literally rookie for 2 years. Living hell.

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. You was rookie for 2 years?

So typically, if they don't draft another rookie that next year, then you—

You still gotta do the rookie duties.

Still a rookie.

So 2 years of rookie duties, and first year it was, Literally, he was— I didn't understand it then. He was trying to teach me the game, but trying to teach me the game the way he saw the game. Now, Nick just said it. No skill, right?

Yes.

Whatsoever. But he wants me to do specific things that he did well. And we used to battle all the time. So I'm like, well, I, you know, I can score. I can do these things. No, no, no, no. You're going to run the pick and roll this way. And I'm like, but I see other things. So we went to a battle, and it was the hardest 2 years of my career because I didn't understand what he was trying to do. Now fast forward that, we talked about my time in Jersey. Everything that I was doing in the pick and roll, I learned all that from him, right? So got to a point he was trying to slow me down.

Right.

You fast, but you don't have to go fast all the time. Slow down some.

I mean, I heard that from J-Kidd this morning.

And it was like— And as you get older, you start to put these things together and understand like why he was doing it. I didn't like basketball those first 2 years. Like, it was that hard. But as I got older, when I started to understand what he was doing, I was like, oh, this is really useful. And that's something that carried me throughout my career. Like, me running the pick and roll the way that I ran it and the things that I would look for, all things that we used to drill. And I used to hate it when we used to go through these drills. It'd be just me and him in the gym 2 hours before everybody was there. And every time, like, I knew I was in trouble. We, you know, the gym downstairs, which y'all don't use anymore.

The dungeon.

The salt used to be upstairs. And I go out there and start shooting and he start walling down and he already full of sweat. I'm just like, oh, it's gonna be one of them days. Come on, DH, let's go. And we run for like 2 hours, just running through all the progressions and understand what I'm looking for. And I'm like, nobody else is doing this. Like, why do I— I was so glad when we got JJ. We got JJ my third year. You take him, JJ. You got him. But really instrumental. But like I said, he knows the game. Really instrumental in my development going across. And then I got him again when I was in Jersey, and we just went off without a hitch. But he was an incredible coach, incredible player, but somebody that didn't necessarily have the skill set as the point guards do today.

But yeah, for sure.

I think that's all our time, fellas.

That's all we got.

Thank you guys for coming out. Thank you for Hennessy for supporting us. Thank you for HERO putting this together. And this is a wrap.