Ep 33: JJ Tate: Dressage Serves the Horse

From performanceriders.com this is the Pabry Podcast. I'm Nat Foxen, and each episode I challenge World equestrian Games top 10 dressage writer Brett Parbury to explain and discuss what I call a Parburyism. That's a pearl of wisdom I've written down over the years of working together in our performance writers programs. Hey, everyone. Nat here. Well, it's actually something a little different today, and I'm really thrilled to let you know that this is the first episode that Brett and I have welcomed together a guest to the podcast. And you know what? This was so much fun. I think we're going to do it again. Our first guest is none other than J.J. tate. Let me tell you about her, and then we'll get straight into the episode. JJ Tate is an internationally recognized dressage writer, trainer, and clinician with over two decades of experience at the FEI level. She has represented the United States in Nations cup competitions and earned numerous championships and top placings through Grand Prix, including USDF Horse of the Year titles. JJ is renowned for her ability to develop horses up the levels and her commitment to classical horse centered training. She's also a passionate educator. Through her in person and online programs, she empowers riders to prioritize correct basics, coordinates clear communication, and the philosophy that dressage serves the horse. J.J. tate, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you guys both so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here.

We're super excited. And I know you and Brett did such a great job actually over on your podcast a little while ago, and Brett was talking about how great the conversation was, and I thought, well, we have to flip this and invite you over here to our podcast and put some of our questions to you, jj. So we're really looking forward to it, aren't we, Brett?

Oh, we are. I can't wait to hear this. I love. I love JJ the way she sees the world of dressage, and I can't wait to hear some of the answers.

It was so fun to meet Brett. We did it last year for the master class at Dressage Devon, and it was just such a breath of fresh air and just excited to meet someone on the other side of the world who we just shared so many common, you know, thoughts about dressage and thoughts about riding and the Internet and how we can help people all over the world. And so it was just an absolute pleasure to, like, officially meet Brett.

So, JJ and Brett, you know that we love to start these episodes around a specific saying or expression. Usually we call them when it's One from Brett. We call it a parburyism. Now, for this conversation, jj, we're going with a tatism. Which is. The tatism is dressage serves the horse. Okay. Dressage serves the horse. Jj, why don't you get us started and tell us a little bit about what you mean by dressage serves the horse.

I. I love that. Thank you for choosing that and bringing this to light. Because I had a very long time mentor named Charles Dumpy, who grew up riding in Europe and escaped the war and just was just one of the most amazing human beings and horse trainers ever. And he always instilled in us that we're doing this for the horse. The horse is not there for our ego or for us to win ribbons or for us to prove anything to anyone. Like, we are here to do dressage, to produce and help that horse become a better athlete, to become calmer and find joy in the usage of its body, and to feel sound and to feel stronger and to be proud, to, you know, do what the rider is asking, you know, and that it's this beautiful cooperation and never this stressful or you're gonna do it because we have a horse show or I have to do this level or whatever. It's. It's really just such a beautiful sport that the rider can really be like the physical therapist for the horse. And so whenever we teach the different exercises, it really has a deep reasoning behind it. Not just to get your, you know, eight on your shoulder in, but like, what is the shoulder in for? And so all these exercises and all we do is to help that horse really feel better in its own skin.

Jj. So with that in mind, and I love hearing that background to that tatism that we've come up with. And I'm so glad that you're pleased with that one, how do you set up a training session so that the horse's physical and emotional needs are always front and center?

Well, I think what's so fun about the being a trainer and a teacher of dressage is that we not only get to train horses all day long, but it's also to help that rider sort of learn to speak horse also, and to kind of get the rider to understand how they can create a better athlete or better communication. That's always just such a huge thrill. And I think, you know, when you're a teacher, you have to sort of balance the horse's mental state and physical state and the rider's mental and physical state too. And so that's always one of the things I love when I'm teaching is to really feel like I can help them get better together, but also honor each of them sort of separately. And for horses like the ones I have in training, I think it's always about sort of knowing what the horse's strengths are and their weaknesses. And sometimes horses feel, like, mentally insecure about a physical weakness. And so it's kind of fun to unpack that a little bit for that horse. I love to be able to explain things to them in a way that they can comprehend it for the level of training that they can do. You know, for a young horse, it's like, hey, you need to move away from the leg. And. And they're like, I don't know what that means. You know, I only go forward from that, you know, so to be able to kind of like break that down and be like, well, sometimes this leg is going to mean yield sideways, and sometimes this leg is going to mean go forward and. And bend and engage and collect. And so I love that process of being able to help the horse explain it, which can mean sometimes we slow things down. We do quite a bit of maybe some school trot, or we teach them a little bit something in the walk just so that horse can get an idea before we ever take it up to speed. And I. I always say that for those of you out there that do ever any dancing, I always say, like, when you're learning the steps of the dance, you very rarely put it to the beat of the music right away. Right? Like, you have to get your technique. You have to be able to do it in relaxation. You have to know what. In a horse's state of mind, like, they have to know what the rider wants, and then eventually you can speed it up to the tempo to then have it be a dance to the song. But I like to be able to break things down so that the horses can feel that they understand what I'm asking. They're. They're physically capable of doing what I'm asking, and therefore, most times they just say yes.

Jj, do you find that the riders that you work with that they can for them to have the knowledge of what they're trying to achieve well and truly in front of them acquiring the skills of actually asking the horse to do it properly? Do you find that something that is important in that process to that the. That the riders are clear and understand what they're doing?

A hundred percent. A hundred percent. And I feel like that's why, you know, your program and my program and some of these great things on The Internet can really help writers become truly understanding of the theory and sort of the. The whys behind just the what's. You know, I feel like there's a. There's a large amount of people, you know, saying, you know, more forward or more bend or, you know, it needs to go more energy or whatever. And it's kind of like, but how do I do it? And why is it important? I think is something that you can get from understanding the theoretical part of things, so you do understand exactly what you're looking for so that you can have that right timing in the moment when the horse does do it right. You know, clearly what you're looking for so you can reward that horse at the right time. I think it's also, you know, like, my trainer and I'm sure you know, your mentors as well. Like, we had to read, you know, we had to, like, understand, you know, it isn't just us. Like, we are part of this tradition that goes back hundreds of years through thousands of riders, and they wrote down what worked and they threw out what didn't. You know, like, nobody pulls on the right ear to, like, turn right. You know, there's a reason for that. You know, there's. There's ways that we're supposed to do it and to be knowledgeable and what that language is sort of connects us all on a deeper level to each other, too, throughout the world.

You touched on this a little bit, jj, but let's go further into some of those key signs that we can look for that would tell us that our horses are really getting it and really understanding. Like, I loved that dancing analogy used, you know, taking it back to slow. You're right. In dancing, you learn the steps, then gradually you start putting it all together, and eventually you end up at the. The tempo of the. The music. So what can we look for with our horses to know that they're getting it? And perhaps on the flip side, what do we do if we spot confusion or tension?

Yeah, I mean, I think when we read horses and their language and we. We understand the idea that horses learn nothing under stress and fear, that that is a reason why rhythm and relaxation is at the forefront of our. Of the programs that we'. And so when the horse starts to get rushy or tense, that's like the first sign of, like, oh, you know, the. The. The head comes up, the ears are confused, and. Or it does that and possibly starts giving you a speed evasion. It might quicken up, it might get faster, it might slow down and be Like, I don't get it, you know, so you want to look for the ability to be able to put your aids on in a smooth way that the horse is, like, following. We always say, like, he's picking up what you're putting down. You know, like, you're like, hey, we need to get rounder through this circle here. Rounder laterally, rounder longitudinally. Like, I need you kind of soft and round. And so you want that horse to, a little bit be seeking the conversation with you and not just like, you know, like up in the neck and braced in the neck or nervous and kind of speeding up on that circle. So you want to find that again, like, that rhythm and relaxation idea with a nice balance. Like, I always feel like balance is really important to me, and when my horses can be in balance, that's when I kind of know they're really with me.

Love that, Brett. You talk about balance all the time as well.

Yeah, look, balance is such an interesting thing. You know, when I was younger and was learning my way through this, people would. I'd hear the word balance, and I. It didn't click with me. Not like it does now. I think it's. It's funny, like, you can see you grow an eye or you grow a feeling for horses that are. That are imbalance and horses that aren't imbalanced. And then you start to see all of the sort of byproduct, let's call it, of a horse not in balance. And you realize that half the issues that you were trying to school back when you. In the early days, half of those resistances and issues were just simply balance issues that now are avoided by picking them up earlier. So noticing where the horse naturally wants to. To go with their balance and just being in front of them and keeping the horses in a beautiful balance, you don't get half the resistances, but that's something that just takes so much time to develop the feel and eye for. And I know I mention it a lot when I'm coaching and mention a lot in the program and balance, balance, balance. And I always think to myself, is that word going over the head of the. Of my. You know, the people I'm talking to, like, it was going over my head. So it's a. Yeah, it's a tough one that. The balancing. But, gee, I tell you what, it is one of the most important things in the whole damn sport.

I loved how you said that, and I. I couldn't agree more, Brett. You know, it's like, if I were to Say, like, what is the one most important thing you would want to give your horses? And I would be, like, balance would be, you know, balance of everything. Balance with going forward and collection. Balance and being able to bend equally in both directions. Balance in pushing out into the growth zone and staying in the comfort zone to build confidence. Right. There's, like, so many aspects of balance, and I think that's a super interesting point to bring up of, like, all, like, so many things that we deal with as symptoms. Oh, he's bracing or he's running or he's slowing down. You know, that's like, we are dealing with so many symptoms of the cause of that falling out of balance. And I just. I just loved how you said that of, like, yeah, I mean, as you get better, you're like, ooh, oops. That he. He felt he fell there, he fell out of balance, or he went through my. Through my half halt. And I mean, a lot of times, of course, we all talk about it being, like, throughness, you know, like, what is that? You know, but this ability to just have that gentle control, you know, of the horse. Of, like, is he with me? You know, I just want to always ask the horse these two questions, like, is he waiting for me? And can I yield him sideways, you know, or can I yield the rib cage? Like, do I have this elasticity in that ability to just always have that horse kind of with me? Which is always the word I think of is. Is balance. So I love it that that's your. That's your word, too, because. Yeah, I'm like a broken record.

Yeah. Yeah.

Just a quick message from us. If you like the ideas in this episode, you're going to love the Performance Riders app. You can download it free from the App Store or Google Play and access a training tool with Brett Parbury. It's really fun and super helpful. Completely free on the Performance Riders app. Now, back to the episode. Jj, earlier you mentioned that, you know, when you're thinking about keeping the horse's needs front and center, that sometimes you might need to slow down a little bit. Can you share a time where you realize that you did need to slow down for the horse's sake, even if maybe that kind of meant changing, you know, your whole plan? And heads up, Brett, I'm going to come to you with the same question.

Yeah, I mean, 100%. 100%. I mean, and I think there's all kinds of different, you know, when the horse is trying to speak to you, like, it's our responsibility to listen and it's also as a teacher and a trainer, it's also our responsibility to translate for the owners. And, and I think that happens in all kinds of different ways, right? There are horses where you're getting ready for the Grand Prix and you're like, I've got this goal and I want to go do this. And this horse is really special. And, you know, you're really trying not to put too much pressure on yourself and the horse and anything. But then it's also like, oop, this one piece of it is just not coming. And so often, like, the more you try to do it and the more you try to just get that one time tempe or the piaffe passage transition, like, you just can't really rush. You know, balance also, right? And, and strength. You know, a horse is, you know, my, my mentor would always say, like, a horse is always their own calendar. Like, you might have this idea of like, oh my God, I want to go do this at that time. But the horse is, is really the one who's in charge of the calendar. And so I've definitely had time. I had to like, back off and be like, okay, I just need to spend a little more time building strength. And then I decide what I might do that and I might need to back off. Young horses, like bringing horses up the levels a hundred percent, like, oh, I really want to do the, the five year old test or whatever. And it's like the horse is like, no, like I am not able to hold that counter canter. And then, you know, sometimes I'm like, okay, well maybe we could compromise and I could take you out in the field and I could do more hill work and more trot sets up the hill and work on building your strength up and canter out in the field. And so you're going to continue to get stronger, but I'm not going to put the pressure on you to like do it in the arena. But then sometimes when I take that time out in the field, I get paid back so much, you know, that all of a sudden it shows up back in the arena because I wasn't like working on it and like stressing about it. And then I had one young horse two years ago who I was like, you know, I just don't think she wants to be a dressage horse. You know, I had gotten her as a two year old and she was a daughter of one of my most beloved mares. And I thought, she's gorgeous, she's tricaner. She, you know, she's going to be half tricane. She's going to be sensitive and light, and she's like, you know what? I don't want to do dressage at all. And so I was like, okay, we'll just pivot. And she's a, she's having a wonderful life as a little hunter jumper with a little. She's got her own teenage kid. And so it was like, that was like the most recent. Like, sometimes you just totally have to change the program and say, what do you want to do most? So I stay really open minded about how I can make it work. And if there's, if there's no way to really make it work in my world, then I really honor that horse and decide, you know, what's their next best thing to do.

And. Jj, do you find that, you know, the older you get and the more experience you comfortable you are with who you are and what you've achieved and, you know, what you're doing for the world of dressage? Do you, do you find that that almost gives you the, the, the comfort to make those decisions and not feel pushed and, and totally? Yeah.

And I would say, like, freedom. It just gives you so, like, knowing the theory and knowing a system and it's a proven system, like, it just gives you the freedom of knowing that, like, there's no pressure to like, make this square peg fit into this round hole, you know, and it's got, you know, maybe we find a different way. You know, my husband's a really great long liner, and so there'll be times if I have a young horse and like, she doesn't want to get straight and she doesn't want to stretch down or let go of her back. Like, I'll just have, you know, we'll, I just have him work with her a little bit and say, like, hey, can you find a way into her body so she can start to understand this? And so it's, it's kind of total, like, lack of ego. Also, as you get older, you're kind of like, I don't have to come up with all the answers. Like, I can find a different way. I don't need to keep harping on this. You know, this kid, which is the horse at the time, you know, on the look, when they're younger, they're sort of kids, and it's like, well, you need to learn math. I, I know you don't like math right now, you know, but it's going to be important that you learn it. So we need to kind of like find the way. And it doesn't need to be like, my hard way, you know? And I. I do think the education and the experience allows you to sort of, like, let go and just have that freedom to be like, I'm still going to work your body, but we're going to work at it this way. Or I'm. I love hill work or cavaletti, you know, something to be like, I want to teach you how to move bigger, but I don't want to, like, stress you out and like, chase you around and make you kind of scared to do it. Like, let's teach your body through the cavaletti how to move like that, you know? And so I, like, that's also, for me, like, a fun challenge to be like, in what context is this horse gonna pick up the idea the fastest, the most sustainable and the least, like, stressful way?

Love that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Brett, you're not off the hook.

We gotta circle back around to that again.

I thought I'd missed out there.

When have you needed to slow down? Even if it meant changing the plan. And look, I fully acknowledge both of you are professionals. Like, there are stresses on you from, you know, in terms of. This is how you make a living, you have owners, etc. Um, so it can't be that easy at times to acknowledge, like JJ said, that the calendar belongs to the horse.

Yeah, look, I would say nearly every horse that I have trained through, through and had long enough to take through to Grand Prix, that's what we're all aiming for, getting to Grand Prix. That's like, you know, graduating. I would say nearly every single one of them at some point in their training life has told me to slow down. And as I've. As I've become more experienced with it and more comfortable with the whole thing, I see the signs a lot earlier and I see. And I have the tools to make those decisions quicker. Probably the earlier Grand Prix horses I had, it was more about like, oh, the horse is resisting and I need to sort of train harder and do more. But that wasn't that. That wasn't the answer. So every single one of them at some point has told me, slow down, we're getting this wrong. I wouldn't say I've picked that up early enough. On most of them, it's taken. It's taken for the wheels to completely fall off, to notice. And, you know, and this is the beautiful part about a Grand Prix horse, a Grand Prix horse has to show all aspects of horse training. So strength, mental relaxation, acceptance of aids, balance, you know complete, complete control and throughness in the body. Everything that you can think of that, that can go wrong. During the period of training, a horse will be exposed in the Grand Prix test. So that's the most that the test, the movements themselves will tell you and the horse will tell you on the way through where you're going wrong. It's just that not always did I notice or have the mentorship to really notice it. So, yeah, I would say I've been taught a lot. I mean, the horses have probably been being in Australia, we didn't have the, you know, you have access to coaches, but you don't have access to world class coaches and you're picking up bits of knowledge all the time. I mean, the coaches here are good, don't get me wrong. But you know, you don't have, you're getting snippets of information back in the days before the, before YouTube and before Facebook, you know, we're relying on magazines and articles and, you know, bits that someone said and you ponder on someone's. Someone's statement for a couple of months as you're training the voice in your head. This statement you've read in a magazine. But then it also allows you the freedom to try and figure this out for yourself.

Yes, yes.

And I would say the horses have actually been, you know, it sounds a bit, sounds a bit cheesy, but they really have taught me everything. And my wife, my wife saying to me, with every difficult horse, you know, Nat, you mentioned professionals, we have to take a lot of different styles and temperaments and different horses in with all those different horses. My wife Mel has said to me, that horse is, it's here to teach you a lesson, teach you something like, just make sure you learn what it's trying to teach you. And when she first would say that, I'd be like, oh, no, no, no. Yeah, the ego comes through. But she was absolutely right. And the more I allowed that to happen, the more I learned. And then. Yeah, so it's funny looking back, I just wish, you know, I guess, you know, everyone can say this, but this brain when I was about 25, because, you know, I could have gone a lot further with it all. And I think I can remember class Balkanhall, once he retired, he said, it's a shame I'm retiring because I just really only am feeling like I know what I'm doing and.

Oh my God, totally. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, it's, it's funny how the layers, the layers just peel off this sport so, so much on the way through, don't they?

Oh, we were just talking about this. Like, the more you learn, the more you learn there is to know, and it just sort of keeps going. And to piggyback on what you were saying, too, like, every horse comes into your life at a certain time for a certain reason. And I always love to ask the question of, like, who do I need to be now? You know, like, what, like, who do I like? What is the change in me that needs to happen to help this horse understand or achieve what we would like it to achieve? Whether that's, you know, it needs to be sold and, you know, or I need to get it ready for this competition or train it to this level or get it ready for this lady or whatever, you know, it's like that personal challenge of, like, what does this bring up for me and who do I need to become? Like, just like your wife was saying, like, what is the lesson here? I just. I love that. And another thing, when you were talking and, you know, just the, the concept of, like, what do you do when things don't go to plan, you know, and for the rider, too. In 2021, I was diagnosed with breast cancer and had to have a double mastectomy. And I had a wonderful Grand Prix horse at the time. And I, I was physically not able to, like, ride him to prepare for this regional championships. And I was, like, determined to go. I'm like, nope, I, I, I, I. My happy place is in the saddle, and I need to get on the horse as soon as possible after the surgery. And it was super interesting because as I started to train a little smarter and less harder, I would, like, walk for my. I would walk through the whole Grand Prix and walk through my freestyle, and then I would pick one thing from the test and I would hit it. I would, like, have this mental discipline to, like, I'm going to hit it once, because I only got one time to do it. I can't repeat it and train it and train it, you know. And so it was a really powerful experience for me to prepare for this championships in a totally different way than I would have before the double mastectomy. And so it was. It was an amazing story. Like, two months later, after the surgery, we did go, we did win. It was amazing, truly, like a spiritual experience. But it totally shifted my brain again. As we get older, we get better. At least we hope we do. And this idea of, I never would have prepared that horse in that way, thinking that, like, all of this walk and all of this attention to Detail and this total mental focus to be like, I'm gonna hit it one time. I'm gonna. I'm gonna hit that Grand Prix zigzag once, and that's it. And I just took the. Took the test apart, and that was a huge, like, eye opening experience for me, too, to be like, where could I put that in my normal training? Because this, like, do it again, do it again, do it again. Maybe that, you know, I could learn something also to be like, does this again, like, is this horse balanced? Does he understand what I'm saying? And can we, like, kind of mentally and intellectually connect so much? Go do this thing, whatever the thing was. And so, yeah, it's kind of fun to think about how. How was. How am I doing it? You know, even now, I'm totally healthy and cancer free and all the good things, but it's just kind of sneaks in there. Like, when I keep running over something with a horse, I start to think, like, could I train smarter and not harder? Because that worked that one time, you know? So that's kind of a. Kind of a cool experience, too.

Well, that's an amazing. I just love that because out of that adversity, there was opportunity for you to break it all down and build it in a way that worked for you at the time.

Totally. Yeah.

There's that lesson that actually maybe there's something in that, not just for when I'm in that situation, but also. Great. I love that. Earlier, jj, you mentioned that idea of who I need to be for this horse. What a gold nugget. Like, who do I need to be for this horse at this time? So thinking about that, are there any practices or gut checks that you recommend to help riders stay honest about their mindset and their energy and how it affects the horse?

Oh, yeah, this is. This is hard because usually, like, the lesson we're getting given is the one we don't really want to see. It's, like, really frustrating to be like, no, it's this horse, you know? So now I sort of have, like, a rule in my. In my head that, like, when I start to be, like, Blamey on the horse, like, well, he just won't focus. He's so spooky. And then I'm like, wait a minute. That's my brain. Like, my freaking monkey mind is all, like, all over the place, and I'm not focused, you know, or this horse is so stubborn. He won't, like, he won't give in, you know, about this, like, bending to the right or like, whatever it is. And then I'm like, wait a minute, I'm being stubborn. And like I'm, I'm like not being, I'm just like too stuck on like the answer he should give me, you know. And so whenever I have like a horse that comes in, and of course, you know, Brett and I are riding all day. Like, there's 12 horses to choose from. Like, you know, and that also makes me approach each one really individually. And I love to know them and like, who they are, but then also who I am, who I might have a tendency to be, and who I need to be, you know, so it's really kind of. And usually it's the most annoying thing about that horse. Like, oh, he's like always running and he just, he won't, he won't wait for me. You know, it's like, well, you're probably also busy in your brain or maybe you're carried your work into the saddle and you're not totally present and calm and connected to that horse. And so I always like to, if my brain starts to get into this place of like, well, she's just like this today. I'm like, well, but am I that way? I'm probably that way. And so I'm actually complaining about myself. So I'm really the only one I can change here. And then it's amazing. Like, sometimes I'll just take a walk, break, and I'll laugh. I think it's funny, right, Because I can catch myself and then to have a little giggle about it and be like, okay, like this horse is being my brain right now. And so I need to just take a couple moments and, and breathe and connect to that horse and feel him and feel myself and sort of clear it out and begin again. Just like meditation.

Brett, I really like that idea that there's such a bit of wisdom in that, that whenever we think, oh, the horse is being like this, instead flip it on yourself, or how am I being? Am I actually being like that? I just think that's so good.

Ajay has an enormous amount of awareness, self awareness, and that has obviously come through hardship and reflection. I mean, you have to be a special type of person to be able to reflect on yourself so much. And you know, we said it before, drop the ego. I think the ego that I know that I had when I was younger certainly was like a force field against knowledge and, and gaining knowledge and, and, and repelling almost the ability to self reflect. You know, listening to JJ's story, I mean, I could just Listen to it all day and, and listen to where the lessons that JJ has learned. And you know, I think that's one thing that. Which is just such so lovely to know that within JJ's program online, she's, she's putting this philosophy out. I'm sure JJ would agree that the joy that we get from this is the joy in actually helping the horse enjoy the rider and vice versa. The rider enjoy the horse and really enjoy the sport of dressage in the right way. Would you agree with that, jj? Is that your.

I love that, Brett. Yeah, I love how you said that. That's so true. You know, and just a sport that we love so much. But I love it that it's also like the horse enjoying the process, the rider enjoying the process, and, and everyone just falling in love with dressage, which.

I guess in a funny way loops us back to that original. The original tatism that we've just. The. Yeah. The dressage benefits the horse and, and, and as you've said there, like with self reflection and with knowledge that. That we deliver the information, interprets it and the. The training itself, insert the horse and, And I don't know if you have recognized this in your horses as well, jj, that I know with my horses, I'm really loving the shape that I'm. That being created with the work, like the way their muscles are forming, the way that they're working within a. Within a body shape. And then also seeing the horses that are. They're really enjoying, like, I can feel the willingness and the enjoyment they're getting from their work. And I can only put that down to having to live by a system, a training system that, you know, we're pushing out to the public through the program time and time again, week in, week out, day in, day out, really making myself accountable to a training system and structure with the horse in the forefront of our mind and the rider as knowledge and understanding dressage and the components and all the bits, it's just benefited me so much. I can't believe it. I wish. I just wished I'd done it 20 years ago. And I know my horses are definitely thanking me for it.

I. I love that. I love that. And I think that's so true. You know, like, there's something about sort of putting something out into the world, like into the universe that's sort of like the more you have to explain it and the more you have to like, talk the talk and walk the walk, it just becomes even more clear. Like the more you explain it to people and you know, you have to teach it to people and teach it to horses and, and ride and explain what you're doing. It just kind of brings everything to a higher level of. Yeah, just deeper understanding, you know, And I think what's so important for people out there is to know that the work works and like deciding what system, what it means to you and what you want to follow and to be able to kind of follow it at your own pace. I think that's what becomes so amazing about the programs that we've created, that you can really follow something and truly know a system like before. And Brett, you know this too. Like, you had to pack up and go to Europe and like, basically live with someone and watch them ride every single day. And, and now through the amazing Internet, like, you can do that in your own home, which is pretty. Pretty special and amazing. But it is so fun. It is, it's just amazing.

And, and what really sort of nourishes me and keeps me going with this is, is the fact that, that the horses benefit.

That.

That there's. That, you know, there's someone out there that I can probably help someone not make a mistake. That's. That's probably the biggest thing I get the benefit out of is knowing that I can shortcut someone's mistake making process or help them understand something to. Then they can relate to the horse and not go down the tangents that I've been on. Finding my way through it. Yeah.

Because I mean, I, I do think like, we had to sort of get through the, get through the, the muck of it. All. Right. Because it's like. Well, as you're saying, like the tangent, like. Well, I think, I think this is the way. And then. Oh, nope, that was definitely not the right idea. You know, but we, it was great in a way because we had to actually, like, go through it, you know, but that also gives us great experience, you know, to kind of like work through it and, and figure it out. And I thought. I think that also defines the system even more because we have tried other ways and that, oh, maybe that wasn't quite the right way. Now we've turned it and now we're. We're this way.

Yeah.

I could listen to the two of you go back and forth all day, but we do have to wrap up this episode. It's been such a. A treat, jj, talking to you, hearing a little bit more about your philosophy, your training approach, how you work with your riders and your horses, and of course, always linking it back to that tatism that dressage serves the horse. Thank you so much, jj, for joining us today.

Thank you guys both so very much. It was great to talk to you again, Brett, and wish you guys the best.

Likewise, jj, thank you very much and good luck for the rest of your season, and we'll be watching you very closely and all the best.

Awesome. Thanks.