[Full Talk] What a Couple of (Former) HR Professionals Would Change About Accessibility At Work

So I am so glad to be talking to you today. It is so great that we finally got to meet and come together on a video call. But I am Britne Jenke and I'm here today talking to Jen Benford of Divergent Talent Alchemy, and I think we have an interesting conversation to share with you today. So like I said, I'm Britne Jenke. My background is in accessibility for workplaces and online learning, and Jen here, my, my colleague, in HR has some great HR experiences, and we'd like to share a conversation about accessibility in the workplace. But before we get started, Jen, why don't you tell me a little bit about you and your Divergent Talent Alchemy?

Yeah, no, thank you so much, Britne. I'm so excited to be here and meet you as well. I feel like it's been a long time coming because we've been messaging and supporting each other back and forth on Substack. So I'm really Grateful to be here. For those of you listening, I'm a writer, I am a neurodiversity coach, and I'm also a former HR leader turned neurodivergence advocate, which Britne Jenke and I have in common. So I've spent some time across industries in manufacturing, higher education, logistics and supply chain, and I've really seen firsthand how inaccessible many systems are for people who don't fit the mold. So now I use my lived experience and professional background to help others navigate and challenge those systems that weren't necessarily built for— with us in mind. So Divergent Talent Alchemy is my newsletter on Substack, and I write, and it's very healing. And thank you for being here.

I love it. I think our newsletters actually complement each other very well because Jen shares this raw emotion and and feeling from like her experiences in the HR space. And my writing's a little more educational, I would say. I haven't gotten into sharing a huge amount of my own personal stories. I'm sure that I will, but I started my newsletter with a focus on educating other HR professionals on how to apply accessibility in the workplace. And I'm sure, you know, we can both imagine our audiences both have experienced what inaccessibility, what discrimination looks like in the workplace for those with disabilities and those with neurodivergence. But before we get into some of those personal stories that I know we're both dying to share, let's set the stage a bit. And thinking back on your HR career, what was maybe like the worst case of inaccessibility or discrimination against someone with neurodivergence that you saw?

Yeah. Yeah. Oh my gosh, Britne, there are so many. One of the hardest ones that I've ever witnessed is, and this is very common, right? But having a highly competent employee who's on the spectrum being let go during a restructuring and that being framed as a performance issue. So a lot of times companies will say, fold separations under either like a reduction in force or restructuring, however they want to label it, a layoff. And that is another thing that I've seen. But this particular scenario was a performance issue. But when you peel it back, it's actually neurodivergent people communicate very differently. And it was a communication mismatch. But what I found is nobody ever asks, you know, what support people really need when they are openly neurodivergent people. It's kind of like a hot potato. Companies don't like to touch, especially in the mental health space. I think it's, it's hard to have those conversations. They can be risk-averse. And so what ends up happening is has an adverse impact on the employment experience of people who are neurodivergent. And in this particular scenario, they were, and no one considered the differences in communication. That haunted me because I saw the red flags at the time, but I didn't know how to intervene effectively.

So, yeah, it's challenging, especially, you know, being that neurodivergent person and not knowing how to advocate for your own needs. Not knowing what the company would be willing to do to support you. So, it all— it can all depend on that individual employee's team, their environment, communication styles of their own manager. A lot of different factors can come into play, and unfortunately, it does fall usually on the neurodivergent employee to advocate for what they need, and that doesn't always go well, as I'm sure you've experienced too. Let's, let's talk about what are some of these really common barriers that we see for people with neurodivergence and disabilities? What are some of those, those things in the workplace that we just, you know, wish were done differently or just designed poorly? What are some of those barriers that you've seen?

Yeah, you're already hitting on it, but the lack of proactive accommodations. So, organizations aren't necessarily really proactive. Like, I've worked in places where they— there's not even a neurodiversity ERG. There's all these other ERGs. But again, the mental health space, you know, you have your, your EAP program that HR reps are quick to email you as a CYA. But when you really peel the layers back, like, what is actually being done to help people who think differently and who process information differently, there's not a ton of support there. And once people do disclose, oftentimes what we see happen, and I'm sure you've seen this as well in your, you know, extensive experience in training and learning and development and working with managers, is people might have a target on their back. Also the communication differences. So if you don't speak up in meetings, maybe you're seen as a disengaged employee, or, you know, maybe your communication style is you prefer IMs or, or, you know, communicating in writing. When you're having all of these meetings, information is flying at you. You can't process things from an auditory perspective because you have a— I hate this word, but it's a deficit. And so if you don't raise your hand, Britne Jenke, to your point, there's no accommodation. And then this person might very well, quote unquote, fail at their job because they're not comfortable raising their hand to have a target on their back. And then the manager or the HR rep or who's ever involved doesn't know how to navigate the situation or provide those proactive accommodations upfront. The last thing that I would say is sensory overload. So the open offices, the back-to-back meetings, the Slack pings, this can be extremely overwhelming for our nervous systems when we're having to hop from meeting to meeting. I've personally experienced that since becoming an entrepreneur and having more autonomy over my schedule, I'm able to breathe, and I'm a lot less stressed because we're not having a meeting about the meeting about the meeting.

Those are the worst kinds of meetings when we meet about the meeting. Uh, no, but you touched on some very important things that I've seen in my experience as well. Um, obviously I came from ND, and a lot of the work that I have done is in making information accessible to people. And I think that's one of the big persistent barriers that exists too, is just when information isn't communicated in the way that people need. And so you touched on this with different communication styles, but it comes down to, you know, the learning and development materials we create, the employee manual that you get in onboarding, all of these different methods of communication, are they provided in the most accessible way? You usually have a PDF that you get sent, and if you get overwhelmed by a lot of text, you might not get through that entire PDF employee manual and understand it as well as you should. So when we start start thinking about different communication styles, neurodivergence, and even disability, making our materials that we offer, our information, how we access things within the organization, taking some steps there to improve accessibility really can go a long way in breaking down some silos and barriers and people not having to feel like they have a target on their back because we just have information that is accessible to all and we don't have to ask for it in a way that makes us a target.

I love that. I love all the work that you're doing. I know you're working on some exciting stuff behind the scenes too.

We are. No, it's definitely a goal of mine to help make workplaces more accessible to people with disabilities and neurodivergence, because a lot of, like you've mentioned, people in HR and the managers that we work with don't always understand what people need. They may understand the basics of the ADA and what accommodations mean, but they might not understand the nuance and what each individual might need in their situation.

Yeah, yeah. And sometimes organizations do it as a check of the box versus, you know, actually being invested in making a difference, which I think is where you're really going to come in.

Yeah. And we're starting to get into kind of one of my next questions here. Like, we know that there's legal and compliance standpoints for things like disability. It's coming more into law for things like neurodivergence as well, especially those neurodivergences that are considered disabling. So ADA applies, FMLA applies, EEOC applies. But from a legal compliance standpoint, we, we kind of know what we're supposed to do. The law is there. It's the practical day-to-day gap that we find. So maybe what's one of those gaps that you saw in between policy and reality? Is a reality in your world, and how do we maybe overcome things like that?

Oh, gosh. Yes. I mean, I think it's the boilerplate language that goes in your job postings and the training that says, "We support disabilities, and we will provide reasonable accommodations," but in practice, that process is very unclear, reactive, and often punitive. People fear retaliation as being perceived as less than when they have a neurological difference. And HR doesn't always know how to navigate those gray areas without legal guidance. And when you have an organization that is extremely risk-averse, sometimes they don't even want to play or touch in that mental health space, so they might move swiftly or take action. When you do request an accommodation, again, it comes back to that target on your back. So you're saying one thing in writing from a branding perspective, and you're putting on your website that you're supporting, you know, these DE&I initiatives, even though the current administration is, you know, has changed that for a lot of organizations. But when you're putting it out there and it's not matching the employee experience through the lifecycle journey, that is, something that is extremely common. I'm sure you, you've seen it as well.

Yeah, yeah, it's, it's the big disconnect. We can, we can write a good policy and we can want to follow it, but it's sometimes, you know, the, the best policies, the best thoughts by the C-suite, the HR, and it's, it's how do we trickle down that execution to the, the manager level oftentimes is where things start to fall apart, whether that's a department manager or a manager of an individual team. It's sometimes You know, it's overwhelming to be a manager, and ADA and accommodations is just one more thing on your list, and you maybe treat it like a checklist and not the humans in front of you. And that's something obviously that I do try to change in my work and getting managers thinking differently about accommodations and how to be more proactive about accommodating their employees' needs. So let's talk a little bit about maybe some of your experiences experiences in HR. You are a highly skilled neurodivergent individual yourself. Tell me maybe what barriers you've encountered in the workplace.

Oh my gosh. Well, before I answer that, I just want to say I didn't answer your second question, which was the, you know, how to, how to change. And I think you, like, the number one thing you can do as any person when you're managing somebody is to approach situations with intellectual curiosity and with, you know, a thirst for learning and understanding. I'm sure you see this in your L&D trainings, Kavi, but understand in order to be understood is something that we can all use and approach situations with compassion and with empathy— and with empathy, not with empathy. Please, can you start off?

That's been the case for, for both of us. I'm sure we can share some personal stories here of our own experiences with managers that were not understanding of our own neurodivergence. So maybe what's one of those situations that you personally experienced and how did you deal with it?

Yeah, oh my gosh. So most of my career I did not know I was neurodivergent. I thought I was just too intense or too sensitive. I mask constantly. I always overperform. So I was working like 60-hour weeks. Granted, I could probably do the work of 2 or 3 people. I don't, I don't say that as like a to be braggadocious. It's, it's because of giftedness combined with hyperfocus. But I was also a people pleaser, you know, saying yes to everything, afraid of letting people down. So when I finally got my diagnosis, which is ADHD and later complex PTSD, it reframed everything. But I have had multiple traumatic experiences at work, including being pushed out of a role after asking for support. So I've felt misunderstood really in a lot of aspects in my life, and getting accommodations can also feel like begging for scraps. So, I'm looking for understanding. You should not have to request accommodations, by the way, for a lunch break or like 15-minute breaks or whatever, 20-minute breaks. You should have as a— really, anybody needs breaks in their day because we're all human. But as a salaried exempt employee, without the prescheduled breaks that we see for for non-exempt staff, that should be built into the workday organically, because we're adults, not children. And so, um, that is a situation that I found myself in, and also like being taken advantage of. So I, when it comes to my brain, because I can do a lot of things and I am super creative, um, I feel like people have taken advantage of that. And then When my Justice sensitivity is activated, because I do not really care what somebody else's title is, I, I'm not impressed by that. I'm more impressed with how you treat others, both in public and in private. And as a neurospicy, I'm clocking everybody's energy and power dynamics in the room. So that's exhausting, but it also can read as threatening and then difficulty with managers. So people see you as a risk when your intellectual capacity is beyond theirs. And this is where the giftedness comes in. So you get feedback like, you think you could do everybody else's job better when in reality, people who are gifted or neurodivergent or gifted neurodivergent, right? Because you can be— when you are gifted, you are automatically neurodivergent and you could just be neurodivergent alone. So I wanted to make that, you know, What am I trying to say? I just wanted to, to share that difference there. But people can see you as a liability. And you think you could do everybody's job better and you think you're better than everybody else. This is the type of feedback that I've heard during my career. It's one, very hurtful, and two, sometimes gifted people actually can because that should be considered an asset, not a liability. But unfortunately, in my experience, I've had some really hurtful things happen in the workplace.

It's unfortunate, and it happens to so many of us. And, you know, I, I have experienced some discrimination at work as well for my own disabilities, not even neurodivergence. I have a physical disability. It's narcolepsy. It wasn't always called that. I've been misdiagnosed, but I was working somewhere one of those employers that has the wonderful perk of unlimited PTO. Yeah, we know how that goes and how there's unlimited. Well, so here's what I was running into. Um, I was using my unlimited PTO to, you know, pop out for my doctor's appointments when I needed to. I was getting testing, I was seeing different specialists and bouncing all around. Felt like I had a doctor's appointment once a week. And so I was using unlimited PTO, no big deal, got my work done. Then I needed to actually go on a vacation, take a few days off and visit some family, and went again to the boss and unlimited PTO. And, but you've taken off so much time recently and I don't know about this one. And so then I'm like, well, then what's the point of unlimited PTO then? So I go to HR and we start talking about, you know, what else can we do here if this isn't working? This is about the time I learned on my own about something called intermittent FMLA. HR never once mentioned this to me, that this was a benefit that was entitled to me by law, that as someone with a disability, I could take advantage of FMLA. Instead, they fired me. They said that they needed someone that could be in that role Monday through Friday, 9 to 5, every day, every week, no exceptions. And I said, "Well, wait, I can do that, but I don't get to take PTO anymore?" And they said, "No exceptions. We need someone here 9 to 5, Monday through Friday, no exceptions." And I took that conversation for what it was, and I put in an internal transfer to another team. So when they released me from my position, I had another position to go to in that same company. Different, even different city, different department entirely. And I learned through all of this about the EEOC and FMLA and ADA and all of those laws and things that I felt like maybe my HR team should have known about, or maybe should have better talked to me about, because our whole interactive process conversation was them asking me how far away from the worksite did I live. And how far of a drive was it to get to my doctor's appointments? And how, how much time would I need to take away? Was the extent of the interactive process. Nothing about my needs, just how far away did I need to travel from the worksite to go to my doctor's appointment and then come back every day? That was the extent of our interaction. So again, we've, we've had these experiences where people with neurodivergence, with disabilities, are not treated fairly. Again, I'm someone I can complete my work. I was able to transfer to another team with no problem, complete my work for that team, and continue with the company. I filed an EEOC claim, but I never pursued it because I did stay with that same company in a different department, and I didn't want to rock the boat. You know, I felt like that situation had handled itself. I switched to a new team. The new team was understanding. I had a great manager.

I loved her.

She was wonderful. And I thought the situation resolved itself for the better. But then getting more into the work that I'm doing now with people with disabilities and neurodivergence, I realized that solving that situation for myself by transferring teams, I maybe made the problem worse for other people. I had an HR department that didn't know the law or either chose to not act on the law, and that could be at a detriment to a bunch of other employees in the future. And, you know, I look back and I wish I had gone through with that EEOC claim and really made them make some changes in their policies, in their HR departments. But it was a big company, and I thought, you know, my voice would be silenced. And so I, I went my own way. And this is the work I do now, is trying to come into companies that want to make a change and want their workplaces to be more accessible. So I found my calling in this work. I know you found your calling in your work. But let's kind of talk about— so for the HR professionals that are listening to this conversation that we're having and are cringing along with us, what maybe advice should we give them? How to be better advocates for accessibility and inclusion in their workplaces?

Oh my gosh. Well, the story you just gave is so common. I mean, there are a lot of times undertrained HR representatives who don't know the law or really like the leave policy in general. I've experienced some of that myself and have seen it happen. So like the number one would be to educate yourself on the law because that should be like a basic minimum qualification, whether you're an HR generalist or an HR manager. You should be reading up on this stuff and you should be the one who is following the law and providing your employees that you are responsible for to the information they need. Not even just by law, but because that's what's, that's what's right to let people know what their options are. Up front. And I wouldn't wait for a formal diagnosis to act. Support the need, not the label. Also, don't be afraid to engage in conversations around mental health. People don't just want the EAP program to cover your ass. Like, give them some tools and resources that actually help. And then this one is a pie-in-the-sky idea, But because orgs have a certain risk appetite, I would say normalize accommodations as a part of onboarding, not an exception. I know Britne Jenke, you're doing some, some work there on that. So maybe not so pie in the sky. And I have two more: dropping behavioral-based interviewing. So that can— I write about this on my Substack. Divergent Talent Alchemist, but that can actually disproportionately impact the neurodivergent community as well as the disabled community as a whole, right? Because to Britne Jenke's point, it's not just neurodiversity. I often talk through that lens because it's most familiar to me. But if you have someone who's autistic, for example, they're going to be very honest versus answering a scripted question about, you know, how have you ever had a disagreement with a coworker, they're probably going to tell you exactly what the disagreement was and how it played out, not the performative way.

Right.

What's that?

And why I was right.

Right. I was right in that situation. This is so true. Like, and of course you have the competencies that you're measuring up against, but using communication as a deal breaker is not necessarily fair because we do not live in a world where everybody communicates the same way. And then listen to people. If someone trusts you enough to share something vulnerable, your response can make or break their trust. So that's not just you, that, that's trust for the entire system. And this can really hurt people. So that would be my advice.

Yeah, one thing that, that you said about the communication styles, something I did recently, I told you about bringing on a consultant for inclusive pixelation. When I did my hiring for that consultant, one thing I did was I offered the choice of the interview format. So if they wanted to be on the phone or if they wanted to do a video call, I even offered that we could conduct a text-based interview. No one took me up on that, but a few people did request the phone call or the video off just for their own personal preference. And again, that was an accommodation I offered up front. Let them make the choice how they were most comfortable communicating. But I think little gestures like that can go a long way. Offering, you know, do you need any accommodations for this meeting in the meeting invite? Just so it's, you know, clear and upfront for everyone. Adjusting your communication. You know, if I'm flexible enough that I can, you know, be on a phone call or on a video call, why does that matter? I don't need to see face-to-face everyone. A lot of people Some people are more comfortable with their camera off, and we can conduct just a genuine conversation that way without everyone feeling like they're being watched or performing. So little nuanced changes like that that we can make in our communication styles. But one thing that, that I'm kind of thinking of as well, for those that are listening to this conversation that aren't the HR people, that are the disabled or the neurodivergent individual, What could we tell them about speaking up for change in the workplace?

Oh my gosh, it's a great question. Well, speaking up for change, I have a lot to say on that, but I was like, from a personal perspective, I would say, Doc, first document everything. Your experience is valid and paper trails matter. So if you do disclose, Always follow that up in writing. I would say seek out allies, whether it's in employee resource groups, if you have those available within your organization. If you trust your manager, you know, that's a thing, but also business can dictate. So find a mentor or a resource outside of the organization that you can talk to. And bounce ideas. Like Britne Jenke or me, I mean, we've been through it, so we understand the process on both sides. Also, know your audience. Be careful who you're sharing the situation with. And know this: if a workplace punishes you for needing access or fairness, that says everything about them, not about you. That's a them problem. And there's often like corporate gaslighting and making, you know, you think that, that you're the problem. But the reality is they might be painting this picture that we're, you know, we're inclusive and we have this sense of belonging, but that's not, that's not what's happening. So I spent years in HR trying to, to do the right thing, and I've been harmed by the same systems that I used to help uphold. So that dual perspective drives everything that I do today. But be yourself, and if you're not accepted where you are, there's always going to be a place where you can land. Also think about entrepreneurship if you're neurodivergent, because a lot of us neurospicy people are thriving in that space because you have more autonomy over your day and your schedule and the type of work that you, you do.

Yeah, great advice. Obviously took it myself after being years in corporate. I have gone freelance working for myself entrepreneurship because it fits my disability and my work style. Like I mentioned, I have narcolepsy and I have medication for that. I have therapies for that, but some days I just need a nap and that's not conducive to work all of the time. So I guess what I would share with others that are experiencing this outside of trying entrepreneurship and trying something on your own that works with your schedule, I do think it's important to find support outside of the workplace. Obviously, I didn't learn about the things I needed to at work about FMLA and ADA. I had to go to outside sources to learn that information. A lot of Googling on my own on what, what I should do, but then finding allies, finding friends, that had experienced similar and could give me advice. Finding people outside of my current workplace that could empathize and understand really helped me refocus my journey, I think. You know, it was, it was a friend that said, you know what, just go to a different department. Stop fighting these guys. You know, you don't need this job. Go find something else that you can do. And really, you encouraged me to explore my talents and, you know, even that final push on for Entrepreneurship was, was a group of girlfriends as well. They said, you know, this, this work that you're doing is so important. You need to be doing it out in the world and taking it to a larger audience than just the company that you're at. You need your own company taking this message out to the world. So again, it's finding that support, finding those networks where you can thrive, where you have support as an individual with disability or with neurodivergence. Because you won't always get that support at work. Unfortunately, that's the world that we live in. And as much as I, you know, would love to change every workplace for the better, I know if that were to happen, I'd be out of a job. And so there's always work to be done.

Yeah, no, that's, that's— I love what you said too about honoring your nervous system, honoring your own schedule and your body. That's something that's really important too. This has been so such a fruitful conversation, Britne. I'm so excited about the work you're doing and really appreciate the opportunity to come on and, and talk with you about a really important topic that's close to my heart.

So yes, and I love your HR perspective. I love the writing that you've done and the, the raw authenticity that you share about HR and workplaces, I think is just a definite complement to the work that I'm doing in trying to improve those workplaces. So if you're, if you're just finding this interview, you should be subscribing to both of our Substacks. So that's Divergent Talent Alchemy and Inclusive Pixelation. We'll share the links for you at the end of the interview.

Yeah. Awesome.

Jen, thank you so much. This was such a pleasure.

It was so great. Thank you so much, Britne Jenke. Thank you everyone for being here and for listening. And yeah, thanks for having me. All right.