How to be a Better Negotiator with Paul Leonard

This is Law and Wit, Episode 5: How to Be a Better Negotiator with Paul Leonard. Welcome to Law and Wit, Creative Counsel for Entrepreneurs. I'm your host, Brittany Rettell, mother of 4, entrepreneur, naptime lawyer, and attorney for creative entrepreneurs. I'm here to share inspiration and action so that you can tackle your business blocks and confidently own your business in every sense of the word. Thank you so much for being here. Hi, I have a special treat today. I'm actually joined by my dad. I'm recording this around Thanksgiving. My parents are in town. So as a special treat, I get to have my dad with me to talk about negotiation. And the reason why I wanted my dad on here is that he has done a lot of things in business over the years. He's been the founder of a media business. He's negotiated investment transactions. A lot of meeting-related buys and huge deals. He was part of a firm that in the '90s, you know, completed over $7 billion in meeting transactions. So, and, you know, after that and up to the leading that career, he was able to retire actually in 2001. So my dad is kind of a master in the family of all things negotiating, talking, reading the room, and telling a good story. And so I thought it would be a great treat to have him on and to share a little bit of his wisdom with my crew today. So welcome, Paul Leonard.

Well, thank you. Being called a special treat and a master kind of puts a lot of pressure on a guy right out of the chute, but we'll do the best we can.

Right, right. Not to put you on a pedestal, but yeah, you know, if the shoe fits. I mean, most of my audience, as we've kind of talked about, are kind of budding entrepreneurs. A lot of them are women who are running their own businesses have kind of fallen into stuff. They maybe had a side hustle that started out as a blog or maybe an Etsy shop or maybe making some sort of product and they were a maker and then have kind of grown from there and are looking at the next step in their business and how, how can they kind of acquire some of that business swagger, that business confidence that will let them move their business to where they want to be. And I think a big important part of that is Being able to understand negotiation and being able to be comfortable in presenting your case and to being able to be persuasive when you're talking to someone. As we've talked about, there's, you know, a lot of opportunities to maybe get a book deal or license some of your material or maybe get investment if you're looking to grow your company. And all of those require talking to people, negotiating deals, and being able to be comfortable in presenting your case and do it on the best foot forward. And a lot of those skills are unfortunately not ones that people come to naturally and it takes a lot of work.

It can take a lot of work and it can be intimidating. So I think maybe the first thing I would say to your listeners is that they shouldn't be intimidated by feeling intimidated because I think negotiating is a little bit like public speaking and a lot of other things. Sometimes the beast is scarier than real life.

Right.

And it's not that hard to become a better negotiator. You don't have to be a master negotiator. And I think it's sort of a fallacy that in any given exchange, you know, the best negotiator wins, 'cause that's not really true either. It's sort of who negotiates best that day wins. So I think with very little study and background, a person can greatly reduce any anxiety they have about negotiating and can step into an exchange whether that's in their work life, their personal life, anything, and not have it be that big a deal.

Right. So if you were talking to someone, and here you are, who is maybe looking to approach negotiation and just the very thought of hearing that word makes them cringe and they think, you know, I don't like confrontation, I don't like adversarial process, you know, just makes me cringe. What would you say to them to kind of bolster their confidence?

The first thing I think I would say is to not look at every negotiation situation as hand-to-hand combat. You know, there will be some people that you will run across, particularly if you're new and you're building a brand or in a situation that is new to you, you might come across somebody who tries to take advantage of the situation. But a lot of times that person isn't any more skilled or comfortable than you are. And you really should go into the process until you see something otherwise, you should go in thinking of it as a win-win deal. You know, you're trying to fashion an engagement or a marriage that works. You're not necessarily trying to crush the person in hand-to-hand combat. I think a lot of people get wigged out or intimidated by negotiating because they're thinking this is going to have to be a, you know, winner-take-all cage match. And it doesn't have to be that way. You probably have something that that person needs. That person has something that you need. And so you should, first of all, go into the negotiation thinking, my first option, my first desire is to try to make a win-win situation, not necessarily to snooker this person.

Right. So if you're going in thinking that you're Russell Crowe and, you know, it's a death gladiator match.

This is not death gladiator match. And, you know, I think going in, if you want to really simplify the process of thinking about it before it actually happens, there's really two key fundamental questions you should think about. And the first is, what is the outcome that I want? What is it that I'd really like to end up with at the end of the day here? And then the second thing is, what process or person am I likely to encounter? Where am I going to find myself? And I sort of put those possibilities usually into one of two buckets. I'm either going to be in a situation where I'm collaborating with someone, even though I'm selling them something. They're going to likely be fair. It's going to be an open dialogue, and we're going to try to make something that's mutually beneficial. Now, the other bucket is maybe not quite so attractive, and you occasionally will run into someone or something that is the opposite, and that is someone viewing this as a zero-sum game. It has to be contentious. I have to win, you have to lose. It's sort of a power trip, someone trying to be aggressive, and If you find yourself in that situation, it's a little bit of a different negotiating style, but sometimes that person's attitude can end up being a weakness for them. So it shouldn't necessarily intimidate you or bring you to your knees if you do see Russell Crowe in Gladiator mode coming at you.

Right. Raising with weapon raised high. So, okay. So there's kind of two ways really when at the onset of negotiation, you should kind of be trying to read the situation and that might that might differentiate the type of skills or the approach that you'll take when you're there in the room, per se.

Exactly. I think if you go in with some optionality in your mind, realizing there's a lot of different roads that will lead to Rome, and that Rome being a happy outcome for me, and I'm going to do something and provide something that's going to be good for that person as well, because any business agreement that doesn't incorporate that usually doesn't end up being a long-term business agreement. And so we're really kind of working on this clay together on the table with this person, and I'm going to go in with that attitude and with that expectation until that person proves me wrong.

Right. Okay. So it's coming, you know, from more of an abundance mentality, you know, that there's enough solutions here. We are both trying to get the same thing in problem solving. We're on the same team in a way.

Exactly. And it doesn't mean you still don't have to and want to learn and perfect some skills, because you do, and you'll be more confident and you'll have a better outcome if you have some skills. But the framework and the cloud that you are under is still, should be, I'm trying to create a win-win deal, a mutually satisfactory deal. I'm not here to be sweaty because I'm trying to take advantage of this person or vice versa.

And thinking that somehow you'll get someone to sign and you'll run out screaming in the parking lot, I ruled the day, because that's not probably gonna be a long-lasting business relationship make.

Yeah. No, it doesn't. You know, it just be like, it doesn't work in life and it doesn't work in a relationship. It doesn't work in business either. You can fool someone once and for an initial term of a new deal with your brand or your product, but in the end, you really need to do a deal that's good for you and the person you're doing a deal with.

Gotcha. Okay. So what are some tips for preparing for negotiation? So kind of would be the first phase.

Well, the first tip that comes to mind, and you— I'll use your word, not mine— is prepare. It's amazing. I've seen, been involved in negotiations before and noticed in the first few minutes that it's clear the person with whom I'm negotiating hasn't really even prepared. They kind of had an idea of where they wanted to end up, but they haven't done any research on different ways to get there. They haven't done research on me or what my strengths or weaknesses might be in my position. They just haven't really done any Preparation. And just in negotiation, like in war or a lot of other things, intelligence does win wars. So the more I could know about you, what you're trying to accomplish, deals you've done in the past, your style from people who have interacted with you, all those data points are going to make me feel again more comfortable when I sit in front of you. So that would be the first thing is just to in fact prepare. The second tip I guess I would suggest would be, you know, just like in selling or dating for that matter, it helps to seek to be a better listener and a fact gatherer, even though that's not technically a word.

Well, we'll make it one. Get it done.

We can do that. You have the power of the podcast.

We have the microphone.

It's better to be that, to be a big radar dish that's taking information in rather than someone who comes in just trying to steamroll and aggressively pitch your needs. So that means that includes things like asking lots of questions, paying attention to body language, typical listening skills, probing. Oftentimes the bigger talker in negotiating situation is the bigger loser at the end of the deal. So it's not trying to me again, just overcome you with a tsunami of my needs. That person oftentimes doesn't win in negotiating. The next tip I've already really talked about, which is looking for a win-win situation rather than a win-lose. Sometimes that requires you being patient and realize it might take a little longer than you think. It almost always requires you to try to remain unemotional. In a negotiation, almost always, unless it's for theatrical effect and to really try to buffalo somebody, the person who gets emotional quickest and deepest again will be the person that will lose in the negotiation.

I think most people, you know, I mean, probably the most common scenario that people can relate to is maybe a house buying experience. And everyone knows that as soon as someone gets attached emotionally to the house, you know, they've thrown out tons of power because the other person, the seller, knows they have them, you know.

Yeah, exactly. And if you react overly negative to something that the person on the other side of the table says or does, that person knows that you are someone who doesn't have a lot of other options and is overly emotionally invested in the outcome. So no matter how good or how bad your other person suggests something, the calmer you can react, the better you're going to end up with at the end of the day.

Gotcha.

There's a lot of other sort of nuances, and, you know, we can't certainly cover them in this wonderful short podcast, but I'd really encourage your listeners to, you know, grab any number of a handful of short books and learn some things. Again, it's not rocket science, and it's not that difficult. It's kind of fun, and they teach whole college courses on this and, you know, video series, but one simple book a quick read could really get you up a far way up the curve.

Okay, perfect. So we'll get to your list. So keep that in mind. So you said you had a few more tips in terms of once you're in the room, are we done with our preparation in terms of what you think should be done before negotiation?

Sure. My next quick tip would be try to have the other person establish the playing field, the brackets, of the sort of the bid-ask spread of what is the playing field. Try to have the other person establish that first. It's always better to have them make the first move. Sometimes you will be pleasantly surprised. I've had people negotiate and start with me at a number or a higher— if I throw out the first number, right? Don't set absolutes. Don't even— just remove the thought of a non-starter from your head because there really aren't non-starters. There's a lot of ways to skin the And don't set a deadline, whether it's during the negotiation or for something after the negotiation, because a common tool you'll see in any negotiating book that you will read is he who sets the deadline first usually loses.

Right.

So, and the last thing I guess I would say is a tip is be prepared for, and perhaps even sometimes seek out the use of silence in a negotiating situation. I recently had a situation where a company that had bought a very large plant for $100-some million was being offered $22 million for that plant.

Yeah, I mean, just basically taking a bath.

Yeah, taking a bath. And when the person who suggested $22 million suggested it, when they were done, they sat there stunned quiet and I was in the room for what seemed like forever. It might've been 30 seconds or 45 seconds or a minute, but whatever it was, it seemed like forever. And they just didn't say another thing. Watch the body language, let the other person sort of think, simmer, react, look back and forth among the principals and then respond. And you have to be willing to not be afraid of silence during the negotiating session.

Just sit in it, just wallow in it.

Just wallow in it and let them listen and think and respond. And when you get nervous and you want to jump in and you want to maybe alter what you said or add to it, all those movements indicate to the person hearing you that you're not really serious about what you suggested. And so when one of your listeners here has an idea that they think is fair and valuable for their good or service or brand and they throw it on the table, they should be brave enough to be quiet.

Yeah, just let it, you know, speak softly and carry a big stick.

Yes.

Yeah, just let it sit. So easier said than done, probably. I think I myself would fall into the camp of someone who, I don't like silence, obviously not. I like to talk, and I think it's hard to be in a place, and I think there's probably a lot of legwork that needs to come beforehand for you to have the right mindset of, you know, am I confident in my price, in my bid, in my asks that I'm making of someone else? And coming to terms with whatever process you need to for that so that you can feel that you can be confident in that moment.

So yeah, yes, exactly. Yeah.

Okay, um, any other tips in terms of, you know, negotiation, what you would suggest? You mentioned kind of reading the room. What do you like to look for when you're looking at body language for people?

Um, I like to watch if there's more than one person. I like to watch what the other side, the people on the other side of the table, who is watching whom, because that'll always tell you who the decision maker is.

Okay, yeah.

And I like to, if I have more than one person on my side of the table, uh, that could be an attorney or a business partner or whatever, I like to watch where their eyes are going and who they're paying attention to because that tells you what their perspective is. Um, I will Again, when given a specific business point or suggestion to someone, I will see how quickly their eyes turn away. I will see if they're engaged, if they're looking down at their paper, if they're looking at their watch. Their body will tell you that their mind is still thinking and trying to work creatively with you towards a solution, or if they've checked out. And if they've checked out, then it's time for you to sort of adjust your strategy.—

then whatever position you thought, you might need to circle back and go to option B or C or however many it takes on the roster there.

Yeah. And I guess my last suggestion again would be to grab a book. You don't have to make it your life's work to become an expert negotiator, but it's not hard to get a lot better than you are if you haven't read a book. And it's kind of fun. I mean, negotiating is kind of fun because again, you do it every day of your life, whether it's with your children, your husband. It's not just about building your brand or your business or selling yourself. And when you get in a situation where you can sense that you have a little advantage over somebody who maybe hasn't done any training in negotiating, or hasn't done any study on the subject, it's kind of an empowering feeling to realize, hey, I kind of am running the show here and nobody maybe even expected me to be running the show here.

It's not that hard. Yeah. I mean, that's, I think, a great place to be is to, you know, have people have low expectations to really blow them away with that you are prepared, you're confident, you've done what you need to to prepare yourself. So, and you know, I think a lot of friends that I have and a lot of listeners, their main negotiating experience so far might be with their children over bedtime stories or, you know, another more non-traditional. But I mean, you watched it today that my 5-year-old, you know, while she was getting ready for dance class, came out with an offer and she said, "How about if I get dressed right now, I get to watch a show?" And she said it really confidently and she floated the idea out there. And, you know, I think there's something to be said for learning from people who they don't have any shame yet and they haven't been taught or conditioned as maybe some women think that they can't be good negotiators.

I think if you have negotiated with a toddler or a teenager or an unruly and tired husband or wife, you will not get in many business negotiations that will be much more difficult. They might be slightly more technical, but they will not be more difficult. The last point I guess I would throw out and I would throw it out with an example of a story, a negotiating tale. And that is you also don't want to ever underestimate the person with whom you're negotiating because that can be a mistake too. Maybe won't be the natural position for some of your listeners who are a little intimidated maybe going in on the first time. But once you start getting a little more comfort, beware of underestimating the person on the other side of the table because I did this once. Myself, and I learned the hard way. I was kind of a young hotshot, and I thought I knew a lot about a lot of things, and I found myself negotiating with this attorney from the Rose Law Firm. And if that rings a bell, that was Hillary Clinton's law firm in Little Rock, Arkansas.

It's probably some heavy hitters there.

There were some heavy hitters, and this particular guy had a super thick Southern drawl. And I remember listening to this guy who, you know, he sounded like he was right out of the, you know, the Kentucky foothills with this big long drawl and 'Oh, I don't know if we could do that.' And I remember thinking, this guy is just sort of, you know, kind of the village idiot. And I started talking too much and I let my guard down and I wasn't very conscientious about listening or probing or asking questions. And I gave out too much information. And the next thing I know, the deal was sort of on the table, sort of turning in a way that was not very advantageous to myself and my business partner. Another guy joined the negotiating situation about 30 minutes later and was chiming in the conversation on the other side of the table. And he introduced this attorney who, again, I thought sounded like maybe he'd be working in a Tuscaloosa, Alabama car wash. And he said, "Well, you might know that Jared here graduated first in his class at Harvard and was the editor of the Harvard Law Review." and has argued a couple cases in the Supreme Court. And I was like, okay, so here's a guy who I thought was—

Had wandered off the NASCAR track.

Yeah, had wandered off the NASCAR track. And the bottom line is he was good ol' boying me right into my own negotiating grave. Right. So that's the lesson that I learned and made a mistake on once. Yeah.

And hopefully not to be repeated. Nonsense.

I always assume everyone is smarter than me. And oftentimes they are, but I try to compensate for that by doing as much homework on the front end and as much preparation on the front end so that I know I'm going in with all of the bullets in my gun that I have available to me.

Yeah, well, I think that's, that's smart advice and good for all of us. So, well, do you have anything to add? I guess you had a couple books that you suggested.

Yeah, you know, I have 4 books that I would just rattle off that are all on my shelf in my office, in my little home office. The first is a classic called "Getting to Yes." It's 30, 40 years old. It's written by, I think, Fisher and William Ury, and it will show up on everybody's top list. And it's, again, often focuses sort of on a collaborative style of trying to get to a mutually satisfactory yes. A second book is in that same vein called "Getting More," and it's by Stuart Diamond. It's sort of a modern updated version of "Getting to Yes." And then the next two books I would throw out are a little different in that they're a little bit more stylistically towards a win-lose situation, a little bit more of a combat, but also some good tips. And the first of those is a book called Never Split the Difference, and it's written by Chris Voss, who was an ex-FBI guy, and he talks about hostage situations and life and death and where you don't have a lot of time or warm and fuzzies to create a win-win situation. And there is some, you know, several chapters of short tips there that are helpful. And the last would be a book that I read, the first book on negotiating I ever read. I wouldn't even tell you what year it was because it was so old, I'd be embarrassed, but it's called "You Can Negotiate Anything" by Herb Cohen. That's again, it's gotta be 40 years old or more. And there's some great analogies in there, which again, some of them are a little bit old school, And some are kind of funny anecdotes, but I still remember them to this day. He tells a story about going in and buying his first suit, and after spending an hour going through different suits and sizes and colors and fabrics in this store, when he was getting ready to check out, he looked at the guy at the cash register and said, "And what free tie will you be throwing in with the suit today?" And he said the guy looked at me and got pale because he said, "I could see in the guy's mind, the salesperson's mind," the possibility that he was going to lose this sale after all this, and that I was just assuming that a free tie was going to come with my expensive suit. And he goes, I've never bought a suit since where I didn't get a free tie.

The ultimate assumptive sale.

The ultimate assumptive sale, assumptive close. But any of those books, and they're all short reads, they could be read over a few nap times or over a plane ride to go home for the holidays. Even reading one of those will get you so much farther ahead on the track than not having thought about some of the concepts.

Right. Well, awesome. Well, you know, if there's anything else that you wanted to add, thank you so much for being willing to join me today, Dad. It was such a treat to have you.

It's a treat, and I love your podcast, and it's an honor to be on it. And good luck to you and to all your listeners.

Yeah, that's a wrap on our How to Be a Better Negotiator episode. I hope you got some good gems out of there. I know I did. Even though I've been practicing negotiating with my dad and polishing those skills for many decades now, there's still a lot to be learned. And I was really happy that I got to have that experience of doing it with my dad. So if you want to see that list of the books that my dad recommended, I'll have that in the show notes, as well as I have a little content upgrade for you if you want to go to this episode on my website, I'll have a download that has a little handout with kind of the main points that Paul walked us through. So if you want to go to that, go to BrittanyRettell.com/5, as in episode 5. So BrittanyRettell.com/5, and you'll be able to get and download this handout if you sign up for my email newsletter, which, if I haven't mentioned already, is an awesome thing just on its own. I send it out every week. I don't bug you with anything if it's not useful, and it's here to be an asset to you, tips and tricks to help you in your creative business, on your entrepreneurial journey, wherever you are. So, um, besides that, if you could leave a review in iTunes, I'd really appreciate that. That's how people know that this is a legit podcast that they should be listening to, or share with a friend. If you have someone you know who's a business owner, who's maybe thinking about starting a business, or is in the trenches and could need a little pick-me-up, need a little inspiration and motivation to maybe work on some things or grow in a certain way, please share and let them be a part of our community here. Thank you so much.