How to Charge What You're Worth with Chelsea Peterson Photography - 43

This is Law and Wit, episode 43, How to Charge What You're Worth with Chelsea Peterson Photography. Welcome to Law and Wit, creative counsel for entrepreneurs. I'm your host, Brittany Rettell, mother of 4, entrepreneur, naptime lawyer, and attorney for creative entrepreneurs. I'm here to share inspiration and action so that you can tackle your business blocks and confidently own your business in every sense of the word. Thank you so much for being here. Hello listeners and welcome back. Thanks so much for being here, and I'm excited to introduce another interview episode today. I have on the podcast a dear friend of mine who I've known since high school. I actually grew up with her in Coeur d'Alene, Idaho, our hometown, and she is now based out of Utah. She's a Salt Lake City-based photographer, and she's done all kinds of different stuff, but she is a specialist and highly, highly sought-after senior photographer for senior portraits for high school girls, and she's just fantastic. And I love our conversation today and how much she touches on having a really good client experience, on building out and using different sales techniques, marketing techniques to really distinguish herself and to build up and have just a network of people, especially through her photography, you know, brand ambassadors through her models that decide to, to be part of her senior portrait program and to continue and then be out and then reach out into the community. There's just a lot of takeaways here, whether you're a photographer or not. Chelsea's a really savvy businesswoman, and she's kind of just been boots on the ground and learned through experience about what, what is helpful in terms of building a successful business and being really thoughtful about your time, about your talents, about having good contracts, and about making it really clear what the experience is that people are purchasing and what they're not, and, and what that looks like, and not undervaluing yourself. And I think that's especially— that's a, that's a really tough position, and then kind of a rife thing that's, that happens in the photography industry, especially as people are making that tough transition from hobbyist or someone who, you know, enjoys doing that, to, hey, this is more of a side hustle, or maybe now it's a main hustle. And certainly we talk about some of those inflection points and what those look like, and some things that you need to be doing, some self-talk for you to pep yourself up to make sure that you're, you're being charged, you're charging what you need to be charging, and you're keeping track of your resources and your expenses and your time so that you can just be thoughtful about the investment of your time and resources. And that's not to say that everyone needs to go pro and everything, but if you want to, if you're serious about this, then here is your map for how to make that happen and do it well. So make sure you tune in. We got talking and we're so nonchalant and just— anyway, you know how good friends is when they haven't gotten to talk in a while. Anyway, so I'm jumping in right in the middle, but I'm asking Chelsea what her origin story is and how she got started. So that's where we'll pick up. And make sure after the episode you check out the show notes. That we've got some resources and links and things mentioned for you. Also have the creative business checklist that I have that I include. So if you have not picked that up yet, if you are interested in getting that one sheet, that power sheet about how to set up your creative business and be legally legit and what kind of questions you can be asking, what you can do yourself, and maybe what you need to be hiring out or putting on your budget, that sheet will answer that for you. Okay, and it in a cute checklist fashion. Okay, can't make it any easier for you. So make sure you go to the show notes, or you can also always go to BrittanyRettell.com/checklist to get that resource and to get added to my killer email list, which some people have said is the funniest newsletter that they've ever had. Okay, so it's funny, it's useful. I don't send it out unless I have something— both of those things to say. Otherwise, I just— I'm not going to take the time. I'll do something else. So make sure you are not missing out on that. Okay, BrittanyRettell.com/checklist. Checklist. Okay, and let's hit it with Chelsea.

Um, I got a camera one Christmas from Santa and just started teaching myself how to use it. So I wanted to not just use auto mode. I learned how to go into manual mode and take pictures of my kids. That was the whole plan, just like really good pictures. And I moved to Utah and I had a cousin who was getting married and I said, hey, I can take your engagement pictures. And no problem, don't have me do your wedding, I don't know what I'm doing, but I can take an engagement picture, right? So she took me up on it and I freaked out. Just, I was like, oh crap, and I spent probably 8 hours on Google Photos looking up pictures of couples, so I would know how to pose them, 'cause I've never shot anything but my kids or a cake or something like that. And so we went and did their shoot, and their poor shoot was like 5, hours long.

Like the marathon of, of shoots.

Yeah, poor guy. Like, guys hate pictures, right? And he— it's like, it's my cousin and her new fiancé, and we were out there, and I felt like I had to get every pose I'd ever looked at in Google Photos, make them really good. Plus, it was my first time using Photoshop. I like never edited a picture, but my husband got it for me for my birthday, so I pulled all the images in Edited them, I thought they were amazing. Like, I thought they were so good. And if you do a before and after, they're terrible. They're the worst. So, but I loved it. And right then I fell in love with like the editing process and the posing process. And it didn't take very long for— I was— had only lived in Utah for maybe 6 months or so, and I started doing family pictures for people. So I was charging like nothing, but I just couldn't get enough of it. It was kind of like, bring it on, bring it on. So yeah, that's kind of the start into how I got where I'm at.

Awesome, awesome. So it just kind of grew from there. So needless to say, most of your shoots now are not 5 hours long.

No, well, including hair and makeup and all that, yeah, but that's not on you.

Yeah, yes, exactly. So, and you know, what, what's kind of your business journey like in terms of when you started shooting? Did you think that it was gonna be, you know, did you think it was gonna be maybe like a hobby that maybe you could make some money back, or did you have visions of it being, you know, a real business and something that would contribute, you know, to, you know, your bottom line, your household's bottom line?

I don't know. No, I mean, I always planned on being a stay-at-home mom, and at that point I had, I was pregnant with my third when I started my business. And I think it went kind of through 3 stages. One was, this is a hobby, but I'm going to charge a little bit. But I didn't actually understand the pricing situation. And there's plenty of people who will take you up on really cheap pictures. So there's a never-ending surplus of people who, you can be busy all the time if you're really cheap. So I always think it was just more of a hobby. I have lots of hobbies, well I did have lots of hobbies. I used to have them, but I think that The 3 stages would be like hobby, kind of doing it, and then there was a stage of playing business, which is when you're like, I'm doing this and I'm awesome, and you raise your prices a little bit and you think you're running a business, but you have yet to actually delve into the details and do the real math and focus on real marketing. And that's probably where a lot of people get stuck stuck, at least in photography, they're kind of stuck playing business. And then whereas now I'm kind of in that phase where I'm part-time but legit business, and I'm kind of at that place where it's like, do I want to go farther or do I want to keep it part-time? How can I balance it with my kids? That, that kind of stuff.

Yeah, no, I really like that. I really like splitting into those stages, and I think I really like the idea of playing business because it reminds me of kind of like playhouse, which is what you see kids do all the time. They kind of know some of the things they're supposed to say and do, but they don't really have it all figured out. They're kind of trying to adopt some of those formalities, but they haven't done all the work. Certainly, they haven't maybe done some of the unfun stuff, the scary stuff of looking at what exactly are their performances like. Are they profitable? What are they spending money on? Is it all really worth it? In terms of investment.

Well, a lot of times people think if they're busy, they're successful. And so, yes, yes, over— overshooting and overshooting and over— and they'll shoot like in the hot season, they'll be shooting every night. And I don't— I don't want to be away from my family.

So yeah, exactly. So, um, well, well, tell us a little bit more about, um, because, you know, as we were chatting, um, you kind of mentioned that you have a nickname that you're known for not only being a great senior photographer, but a little bit of a pricing Nazi. So tell us a little bit about your philosophy there, because, you know, honestly, the money side of business is a sticking point for a lot of people, and there's a lot of mindset issues to overcome there. So walk us through a little bit about, you know, what drum you're banging on in terms of people getting a better pricing model.

Yeah, I'm, um, I just hate people, watching people working for nothing. And when I bring it up, people are like, well, there has to be a low-end photography, there has to be, and it's like, yes, I really believe that there will and should always be a wide range of pricing. There always will be. But the bottom line should be higher because people who are charging like $60 or even $125 for like a portrait session, usually don't know what they're actually making. So I actually offer pricing help to photographers where I evaluate their pricing for them, and usually photographers find out they're either like making nothing or maybe like $2 an hour. And my whole thing is like, why run a business? It's stressful. Why run a business for nothing? Like, go work at In-N-Out Burger. And get $10 an hour, like that's their minimum, you know, and go work for someone else and get more money. So when I run people through their pricing, I get all of their stats, like I make them look through and what are their expenses, and I can calculate everything for them so they can actually see on paper. I'll be like, hey look, you're making $6 an hour, where your goals that you told me you need to be making, you wanna be making $25 an hour, your pricing's gonna have to be this per session, and they're usually like, oh, I can't, I can't charge that, I can't charge. So I'd say like the average photographer, mom photographer working part-time, with the amount of sessions, it's usually about the same with the amount of sessions they want to do, they end up needing to make about $1,200 a session to meet their goals. And that always shocks them because they're usually charging like $150 per session.

Yeah, it's a big jump. Yeah.

Yeah, so then the question is how do you get there? And how do you start raising your prices? Because I think that I remember when I started out, I started out at $60, then I went to like probably $125, and then I went and shadowed another photographer who charged more and I asked her, I was like, I'm thinking about raising my prices, should I, do you think I could charge like $250? And I'm like, or maybe $300? And she was like, yeah, why not charge $400? And I was like, oh, I can't, I can't do that. No way. So I raised my prices to I think $350 at the time, and people kept booking me. And it was like, oh, okay. So I just think so many times people are afraid of pricing, and the main reason is because they're always guessing what their pricing is. It's a, hey, Julie's charging $200 and Sarah's charging $500. I think my work is kind of in between there, so I'll charge $350. And they don't actually do the math about running a business. So when I see people that are like, what should I charge? People think it's just in Utah, that's where I'm located, but it's everywhere, it's a problem everywhere. And I think what the reality is, it's just a lack of education and understanding how to run a business. And it's hard to get there when you start as a hobbyist and you didn't go to business school, that's a hard thing, that's where I was, I had to learn the hard way, so.

Yeah, you have to get over that. No, I think you're, that's, yeah, you made some excellent points there in terms of, yeah, it's a lot of just getting over, fears and what can happen. And certainly the wrong questions to be asking are, what are your competitors charging? Because that really has nothing to do with whether your pricing is going to be spot on for what you're, what you're valuing and what you're providing. So, and that requires some hard questions. It requires you doing some unfun things like keeping track of your time, which people don't like to do. Heck, I don't like to do it, and I get paid by the hour, but I still don't like sometimes having to keep track of my time and how much But I know that I am able to provide more value and be such a more efficient business owner when I'm able to be honest about, you know, what is my time being spent, what are my real expenses, and then does my pricing accurately reflect what it needs to?

Well, and too many people look at the area they're living in and they see their competition and they view— they won't raise their prices because they look at other people and they're like, nobody's charging that, so I can't. And one huge thing that I did is I don't follow a ton of local photographers. I kind of erased them all and then slowly have started following some here and there. But I just focused on following ones who I wanted to be more like or inspired me to be different. And my husband, when I first started charging more, when I kind of sat down and did the math and I was like, I'm gonna do seniors, Do you think I can charge like $850? And he was like, no, no one in Utah is gonna pay $850 to book a senior session. It's not gonna happen. And I'm a pretty stubborn personality, so I proved him wrong and then some at this point. So that was like 3 years ago, and I'm doing— so my sales are usually more in the $2,500, $3,000 range. And my husband's just like, you've proven me wrong all the time, you know.

So, and you're like, can I get that in writing? Can we put that in vinyl lettering somewhere prominently in our home?

Tells me that I shouldn't do something, I just do it, try it anyway.

Watch me, watch me.

But, um, and that's just really unheard of for my area. Like, I would say, I have total random guessing numbers. It's not like there's statistics on this that I know of. But I would probably guess that 95% of the photographers are not in that realm. You know, like they're just kind of all in a lower end. And so I just, blocking out the who you think is your competition, myself is usually my own competition. And then there are some people in my area, in my range that they are, but not everybody's focused on a niche either. Which also helps.

But yeah, definitely. Well, we'll walk you through that. Like, how did you come to know that seniors were gonna be your jam? Or was that— were you scared to niche down and be like, hey, I'm just shooting seniors, this is what I do now?

So I've shot everything from newborns, maternity, families, weddings, seniors. Like, I'd shot everything. I've got an interest in seniors probably 6 years ago I shot like a senior and I said that was really fun. It was nice to just have like one person that I was focusing on and not more people and more people to make happy. But I just felt like, well, weddings is where the money is at. That's kind of what most people think. Like you gotta do weddings if you're gonna make any money is what everybody says still. So I continued to focus on weddings. That was like my big, I'm gonna do weddings, weddings, weddings, weddings. And maybe I'll shoot some seniors on the side. And I had not met anybody who had shot more than like 5 seniors in a year, so I was like, yeah, I don't, you know, there's too many people shooting seniors that they all go everywhere, so I'll stick with weddings. So I went to a workshop, it was a business-focused workshop, and she had us write down our brain cloud back from like school, you know, and with our branding names, branding words. And so I wrote down my branding words and words that described me as a person and a photographer, and I just had this realization that I was not supposed to be doing weddings and that my personality and everything that I wanted to build in my business was going to be more focused on seniors and that I should just do that. So, and this photographer teaching the workshop was a wedding photographer, it wasn't weddings specific, but, so it was about, I did a year, I think a year more, maybe 2 years more, I can't remember what year that was, but I did 2 more years with like weddings, 'cause I was afraid to drop them, because they were making me money, and I had yet to prove that I could shoot seniors more than like 5, so I started focusing though on my senior brand while I was booking weddings, and what changes can I make, how can I bring more seniors in, what is that gonna take, what does it mean, and so while I, I did that, I slowly started dropping weddings, and it's been 3 years, yep, 3 years now. I did my last wedding 3 years ago in like September.

Awesome, I love the kind of that turning point there. You said that you were afraid to drop them because you hadn't proved to yourself that you could only just do seniors, you know, but here's the thing, I mean, anyone who is niching down or going into a new realm and adjusting their business, there's never going to be any proof that that's exactly the way there is. There are no, there are no, you know, sure, sure, sure things.

Well, and we live in a society who's pretty self-focused, and I quickly realized that my seniors didn't care about my weddings. And so I just had this quick thing where I was like, I have to rip the band-aid and I have to drop weddings because my seniors don't want to come to my Instagram and see weddings. It won't grab them. They're at that age where they're even more like me, me, you know, like they're totally in that age where everything's about them and life is just starting and it's all really exciting. And so I just realized like they didn't care if I had families and babies and weddings or any of that. So I was like, I just have to rip the bandaid and do it. So I just stopped booking weddings like immediately and started turning them all away. And I would say, I would say for, I would recommend to anybody shooting photography that they should have a niche. And too many people are like, oh, I specialize in families, weddings, and children. I'm like, well, that's not specializing. I counted more. Because, and I think that's because they're afraid to drop some of the other ones, or they like doing them. I like doing weddings, I still like weddings. I think they're fun, I loved them when I did them, but to run a better business, I think it helps to focus on one thing, because marketing is hard enough, and marketing to a senior is very different than marketing to a wedding, and branding is very different for a wedding, like my branding would be completely a different look than it would be with my seniors.

So yeah, exactly. No, I, I like that you said that to run a better business, it helps to focus on one thing, you know. And it's something we hear a lot, you know, a lot of business experts talk about that, about, you know, the riches are in the niches and you gotta hone down and you really have to be able to speak to your audience and solve that problem and know it really well. Um, but again, yeah, I think a lot of people kind of just hear that and goes one ear out the other, and, or maybe they even convince themselves that they've done that, but If their branding is all over the place, if they're having a hard time really getting their messaging point right on point, then it may be they haven't really taken those steps like they needed to. Yeah.

Another good thing to do if you do specialize, and if you go, I'm part-time, so I tend to wear all the hats, and it's not easy to do, but it's hard for me to turn over a lot of stuff sometimes when I am doing it part-time because I feel like I just want to keep it in-house. But if you're going to do it full-time, I would say to outsource. If you're going to be a one-woman show, find things you can outsource. That could be cleaning your house. That could be, for me, it could be editing. I don't do that currently. I haven't found one that works for my brand. But outsourcing your editing can happen, outsourcing your blogging, outsourcing your social media. For me, I would rather outsource cleaning my house.

Yeah, amen. First thing at the top of the list.

I would like— I like to do some of my business stuff, so I'd rather not waste time cleaning my house and do some other stuff.

You know, I'll play around with Illustrator and Canva and the graphics and stuff, but, you know, cleaning toilets, not my jam. Never been my jam.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think the outsourcing, especially if you're going to be a one-person business owner, is very helpful because I think that we live in this time where Marketing is, it's so much more in-depth than it used to be. It's hard to wear all the hats sometimes.

No, no, totally.

You gotta have a partner that is doing some of the stuff for you.

Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, as you've kind of come along this journey, have you had any kind of business failures or, you know, failure is such a loaded word, but any challenges that you've had that you've kind of overcome in terms of either recognizing some of your own skills or maybe what you're great at and maybe what you were not great at, you know, and how did you approach those?

Yeah, I think that there's always, there's always some kind of failure, or I'm my own biggest competition. Like, I'm really kind of challenging myself. I'm— but I think that the times where I'm the worst is when I'm comparing myself to other people, and that could be for my business or that could be for my art, whatever. Whatever that means. So usually if I see someone doing things and they look busier than me or they look better than me, then I tend to second-guess everything I'm doing, or I let it make me feel down and out about myself, and I don't feel good enough. And usually that affects my business the most. And the truth is we're all kind of putting out on social media what we want everybody to think about our business. So a lot of times, like, I'll see another photographer and they're they look like they're busy all the time and then I'll find out later, like, no, they were doing free shoots to just look busy. You know, so we all kind of COVID up our failures. But I would say honestly just like the lack of believing in myself has probably gotten more in my way than anything else because there's tons of different photographers who have different styles than me and they are amazing photographers.. But I just had to learn how to accept my style and my art and my way of doing things, and it didn't have to be like everybody else. And to just be like, you know what, I'm gonna own what I'm doing and focus on what separates my business from the other businesses. And I can still appreciate what other people are doing.

Mm-hmm, yeah, awesome. You know, part of the just because one flower is blooming beside you doesn't mean that you're not, you know, doesn't take any, any weight from you. And And I think that comes— and I think that's something that a lot of people struggle with, you know. I think especially as women, it happens to be a particularly pernicious problem that we have in terms of seeing others and maybe having a harder time internalizing that, or what does that mean for my success if I don't exactly look like this that is being heralded as the highlight reel, as the, as the target that everyone should be looking like, you know, in their life, in their business. So, um, yeah, I don't think you're alone in that, but I like what you said about owning your own style and having, um, Yeah, just doing the work to figure out what that is and then being okay with stepping forward with that and not trying to make it like someone else's.

Yeah, and there's nothing wrong with— if you're not busy, like if you're photographers, just since that's what I do, you're a photographer and you're like, I'm not booking anyone, there's nothing wrong with doing a free shoot. It's kind of the way that you do it and the way you choose to market it that's going to make the biggest difference. So I'll give you more direct examples example of failure to me. When I first did seniors and I first said I'm gonna start doing this, I was still doing weddings, I said I'm gonna have a senior rep team, a senior model team, whatever people call it different things. And so I was also, had changed my pricing at the time to my higher-end pricing and I'm really good at doing the fake it till you make it, so like it was really easy for me to just be like, I've always been charging this, whatever, you know, so But I had this meeting and I invited all these people to it. I got like found names from some old seniors or something and invited these people to a meeting and I had this presentation and it was ready to go and I was, I had print samples and all this stuff and had parents and seniors come to this meeting and nobody booked. And they all like, they all left and I was on fire. Nobody booked at the time. I was like, okay. And I'm the type of person that like is if I'm excited about something, I'll post it and then I'll be like checking like all the time waiting for somebody to be like, yeah, you know, and it doesn't happen and I'm like—

Refresh, refresh, oh, I'm sure it's coming, right?

Yeah. Trying to clean my house and check my email all day like, oh no, no one responded. So total waste of time, but yeah, I'm not very patient at waiting. So nobody ended up booking after I gave them like 48 hours, I don't remember how much time, but I gave them time and nobody booked and I was like, I just spent like— everybody got like a swag bag at this meeting, and like I put all this time, and a couple parents were like, this is like great, you're a very smart business person.

But then like they didn't book, it's still crickets.

Yeah, yeah, I'm like, whatever, you know, I'm a failure, I know nothing. Yeah, so, um, but I, I, I'm really quick on my feet to like feel depressed for like a short period of time and then pick up out of it. I know not everybody can do that. I know some people who really struggle with depression issues or anything like that who just wallow in that, and I know that that can be hard. Luckily for me, I need like 24 hours maybe to just like hate on myself, and then I'm like, okay, like then I'm self-motivated, right? So, um, I just kind of— I tweaked a couple things. I made a couple changes. I contacted a girl who was a, I think, a graduated senior, and I just said, hey, do you have names for me? And she gave me like— and I said, I'll give you a free shoot if you can give me 20 names of people or something like that. And I will bribe you for some names because it's like, it doesn't cost me anything to shoot her, and I get images that make me look busy, right? Win-win. She was the beautiful girl and popular, a good pick. And so she was like, yeah, awesome. And so she gave me names and I contacted new names of new seniors and I actually went to their house individually because I was like, I don't, I can't do this meeting again. It was so much work. And I actually do the meeting now still, but it's totally different now. But, um, so I went to all their houses individually and just really personally like told them about the experience and what they would get. And I ended up with 10 models for my team that year. And it wasn't the pricing that I was kind of hoping for, but I adjusted it to kind of ease into it. And that was 4 years ago, and so now I'm on my 4th model team, and each one's just gotten better and better. And every year I make a ton of, like, I learn, I make, there's so many mistakes that I make and changes that I have to make, and I don't know when it will ever end, the learning process, but But yeah, that was definitely a time where I felt like a failure, and I don't think people would know that because they just see my business as being successful and having a successful model program, right? And it was not, like, at all.

Yeah, but there was, there was a learning curve there, you know. But below the iceberg, you know, Titanic style, there was a lot going on that people didn't see.

Yeah.

Yes. Yeah, for sure. So yeah, well, that's, that, that's an awesome, you know, it was great to be on the flip side of that experience. And for you, I mean, it sounds like that you're still recognizing that there's a lot you learn every time you do, you know, an iteration of your program, that you're being sensitive to feedback and willing to say and really re-examine, like, how can I make this better? How can I make this a better client experience?

Well, and too many times I'll see people on Instagram post like, what do you want to see? And they'll ask their— not even clients, because Instagram is just followers, right? And hopefully turning into clients, but they'll be like, Do you want this? Or they'll even ask them like, would you pay this or this? And they like wanna know, well clients are always gonna be like, the cheaper one.

Yeah, I don't know, maybe less money than, no, I feel like I'm paying more money today, thank you very much.

So I personally go back and I take old clients, I do it with my seniors in a separate group, and then I meet with their moms, and I do, if not every year, every 2 years at least, depending on what, kind of what's going on or what's been changing in my business. And I do like a forum. So I'll take like the seniors, I'll have them come to my studio and we'll have like some pizza and I'll have a bunch of questions and I'll ask them like, what did you like about this year? What would you change about this year? What, how, how can I get you to post more than you posted? How, what, what kind of things do you want to post on your feed? Because seniors are tricky. They are very like, very like, you'll do an awesome shoot and you'll send them the pictures and they'll say, these are amazing, and then they won't post them and you're just like, Why?

Yeah, but you know, it's— and taste change in terms of how people feel comfortable of like, look at me. And I mean, those are all really sensitive, hormonally affected issues.

Felt like the perfect time to post. And I'm always like, oh, good picture, post it, you know, really quick and less curated. And they're very curated. Um, and then the moms, I'll get together with them and I'll say— and you can do this with any— you could get your moms from old brides or moms from families and I'll say, I'll talk to them about the same thing, but I'll also talk to them about the hard stuff, the money stuff. And I'll say like, look, this is what I'm thinking about, and I'll talk to them about how they feel about the money. Do you feel like you got the right experience for what I'm charging? Do you feel like this was different? Do you feel like your daughter was special? Do you feel— and I think people are afraid of doing that. We live behind our screens so much now that in person can be scary, but I'll just take my moms out to lunch and we'll talk about the scary things. And because I'm like, hey, I'm running a business, like, I'm not gonna pretend I'm not. And I think people just want to be friends and keep it like cautious. And so just posting on my Instagram like, hey, would you pay $3,000 for your senior pictures, or would you rather pay $400?

You know, it's like, it's a dumb question. Yeah, you're gonna get some dumb answers.

Yeah. Instead, it's like, look at the experience I offer. And I post and post and post experience. And so they're like, wow, this is different. And then it's the parents who, they're the ones working out the money.

Right.

And I like to talk to them more about the stuff that can be hard to talk about. And I get great feedback with them and it helps me as I change my program and how I want to do it. So I think that's an important thing to try to add in is, and if you can't do it in person or you're afraid, you can do some Skypes or FaceTime with the parents.

Or a survey or something, you know, to get feedback from your people. No, I think that is super smart for you to do because those are your people. And it's good to recognize that you have the subject, you know, um, you know, because it is— you have kind of dual clients because you have to kind of sell the teenager because they have to be excited about you, that they're going to be shooting with you. But you also are selling the parents who are the ones actually with the pocketbook, you know, with the writing the check. And so you need to make sure that both of their needs, expectations are being met. And what does that look like?

You also have to balance when it comes to like pricing yourself on the experience. I see a ton of people offering a huge experience for for pennies, and that can be hard for me, 'cause I'm like, wait a second, like, you're offering so much and you haven't done the math. But again, I just try to like push people out and focus on myself and my experience, and I'm like, look, I have a high-quality product, what can I do better to show my experience? But you also don't wanna be like, I have to top everybody and I have to top myself every year to where, once again, you're making, you might be earning per session a lot of money, but you're making pennies in the end because you're so overblown alone and the experience you're offering that you have no balance in your life.

Right.

And you're like, I'm gone from my family all the time. I make, I feel like I'm making money, but now every session is taking me 50 hours.

It's like, yeah, and that's not, it's not a good return when you actually are crunching the numbers. And you know, yeah, maybe you got into this because you wanted to have freedom and you thought that as an entrepreneur, and you know, what kind of freedom does that look like when you have that kind of a schedule and that kind of workload? Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's chasing, you know, the business is running you and not the other way around.

And for a lot of entrepreneurs, especially the mom ones, and you have kids, trying to find the right balance is important. Mm-hmm. And I feel like, you know, when I see friends overshooting, and, and I wish husbands sometimes would help more, because sometimes I see husbands that are like, you can't quit. Like, they're like, I'm burning out, I think I want to quit, and they'll be like, but my husband doesn't want me to because I'm making money. And I'm just like, but you're not like You're not. I wish that sometimes, you know, spouses would be a little bit more supportive and a little more involved in each other's things so that they could really understand the workload that comes with it. I know every, you know, everybody does different work. For me, like, my husband does taxes, so he's my left brain and helps me really focus on the stuff that I don't like to focus on. So, but yeah, I think that finding the right balance, because I'm like, you know, I'm not gonna leave my kids for a session and make $10 an hour. Yeah, like I'm not gonna be gone from my family all the time and only make that. Like, I'll quit before I, before I do that, right? So I'd rather have less sessions and more time with my family and focus on like trying to get the high-end experience and high-end clients that want something that's different than anywhere else.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, and just be really honest, you know, brutally honest with yourself about those realities. Yeah, so, well, you mentioned, you know, some of the things that you've learned in terms of client experience. Yeah, do you have just a couple of those that you, that you could share in terms of what you've learned? And I know, you know, this is yours, is specific to photography, but I think this is probably would cross into other people who are doing some sort of, you know, one-on-one client service, you know, experience.

Yeah, I would say, I guess first you have to do the math and you have to do your pricing, and which includes time expenses, what you want to make per hour, all of that. And obviously what you make per hour will go up as you gain experience. So, you know, because people are like, well, everybody can't charge this much. I'm like, you don't have to. Some people make $25 an hour, some people might make $300 an hour, you know, like that'll come with the experience there. But I think that that's the first step, because when you're doing what— no matter what you're doing, when you're doing a lower-end thing, it should be very basic. It should be very like easy for the client. For a photographer, that would be like book, show up, shoot pictures, send them back, and very quick editing. As you get more to the middle ground, it'll probably be a little bit more like here's a guidebook that tells you how to get ready for your family pictures, and here's some ideas of what to wear, and it should be like digital. And then you're charging more and it's like, oh, like great, I get a little bit more help. I paid a little bit more, my experience just went higher. And then like with where I'm at, my level, I actually meet with my clients in person. We pick their clothes, they bring their clothes, we go through Pinterest, we do online shopping and talk about it all together. So, but I see people who are trying to jump to that higher-end experience but keeping their prices low 'cause they feel like they're, Everybody doesn't know what everybody else is charging, so they feel like they need to like, oh, she's offering this, I need to get my experience better. But again, it has to go back to the math. It's like, what do you want to charge? What do you want to offer? If you want to be a cheaper photographer for people who can't afford high-end photography, great, awesome, but do not give them the world. You know, it's like, just don't give them everything because that means per client you're spending hours and hours of time on a less-end thing, and so you're making less per hour. So I think that the client experience really has to go with what are you looking for? Are you a McDonald's or are you Ruth's Chris Steakhouse? Like, what, where are you? What do you want to be? And I don't think anyone's necessarily easier, um, as I— because people are like, work smarter, not harder, right? That's like a pretty— yeah, love that, because I feel like Um, although I started working smarter and getting my pricing right, I'm still working my butt off because it's harder for me to find my clients. It's harder for me to find people that want to spend money on the pictures. So my marketing got harder, prices went up, marketing got harder, experience went up. So I'm like, yeah, okay, I'm working smarter, but, um, I'm still working harder.

So, right, it's just a question of, yeah, do you want to be spending your time clicking and stuck behind Photoshop, or would you rather be on trying to find your people in your community and doing really smart marketing initiatives to be able to find, you know, who your ideal clients are?

And so outsourcing helps you work smarter. So continue to work smarter, but usually you're still working just as hard. You're just working harder in more specific areas that are, that are good for you, that you're better at. So like, hire out things that somebody else can do better than you can do them. But I think that, so I think you really have to think about it. Do I want to offer a high-end experience or do I not? If you don't, then don't do it and just have basic pricing and have a very simple experience and go home to your family and don't think, and outsource your editing too if you want to, and don't think twice about it, you know. So I just think people are confused at what they want to be.

They don't know, they don't know themselves.

Yeah, they're just still trying to figure out, like, people see what I'm doing on Instagram and it looks maybe like, oh, it's so glamorous and it's so fun, and I'm just like, no, not— it's not. Like, I spend 90% of my time still behind my computer. And people are like, I don't want to meet with my clients 3 times. I meet with all my clients 3 times. That's not good for everybody. So it's like, okay, great, then don't offer it and don't do the pricing that I do, you know? So yeah, exactly. Okay, so some people get mad at me when I talk about pricing because they're like, you know, there should be different prices. I'm like, I'm not saying there shouldn't be, I just want to make sure you actually did the math. Like, if you can make money at $125 a photo shoot, awesome. Maybe you're editing in 20 minutes, I don't know.

Maybe you have some secret Lightroom ninja skills that I'm not aware of.

Which I think most of the time people are just not honest with themselves and the hours they're putting in from the first email to the final delivery of— maybe that's a gallery, or maybe it's prints or products, I don't know. But they're not really honest, they're not tracking their time, and they— or they don't know how to do the math. And that's okay too, like there's other— I can do the math for you, you know.

Yeah, there are other options, and there's people you can help too if you, if you really want to know the answers, which, um, yeah, you should, because you shouldn't be afraid of them, because knowledge is power. And at least then you know where you stand. And if you want to say, this is what I want to be doing, or I need to make some changes.

Yeah, it actually— this is a whole different topic, but it just brings it up— the term community over competition. Great, I believe in it. I'm a huge believer in community over competition, but too many people have taken that as help me, tell me everything, and you should do it for free. Like, give me all of your wisdom. Community over competition. We should support each other. If you want me to get better, don't you want to give me Don't you want to help me figure out my pricing for free? Like, why do you, 'cause I'll be like, great, I do pricing evaluations for X amount of dollars, and almost every time people are like, oh, I can't afford that. I'm like, well, that's funny because you obviously need pricing.

You obviously need help with your numbers, so yeah, well, you're preaching to the choir there of people who want your time for free, so.

So that's in every creative industry, the community over competition, where I'm like, no, community over competition is, helping people get the help they need by pointing them in the right direction. Right. And there's some things that are free, like we have a great community of photographers who will say like, I'm looking for a location like this, and people will say, oh, like, I know a perfect spot, and they'll give that kind of stuff. But like marketing help, I'll have people all the time that say, could I take you out to lunch and just pick your brain? Yeah, about your modeling program. And I'm like, you mean the one that took me 5 years and thousands of dollars of like courses and stuff to figure out.

No, sorry, but no. Yeah, that's— and that's my time, you know, and so that works into everything else. So, um, yeah, no, I think that's really— it's really good to be just every creative. Yeah, and it is a bane of every creative. Yeah, just to be thoughtful. It means that we're not, you know— yeah, that we can cheer for others and celebrate each other's successes, but It doesn't mean that you owe people your time and your talents. So especially when it's at the detriment to your own goals and your own boundaries that you need to have in your business. Yep.

Yeah. There's a reason you asked me, 'cause there's free courses out there everywhere. I mean, they're out there. But I'm like, there's a reason you asked me, so this is what I charge. If you don't wanna pay, that's fine, but then I'm not gonna give it to you, so yeah.

Yeah, you should be my new gatekeeper for people who just send me DMs all day. Hey, I just had a quick legal question about something. I'm like, if I had a nickel for every time that it was— it's not actually a quick answer because nothing—

the quick version of anything, like, what's the number one thing you would tell me to do to be an awesome photographer? I'm like, there's not one. There's not one thing, you know. So they want the, the pill. They want the lose your weight with eating this pill. That's what everybody wants. Everybody wants to lose 20 pounds just by taking a pill every day, right? So It's the same thing for creatives and, well, business everywhere, any business. They want the get-rich-quick scheme and there's just not one.

Yeah, I mean the reality is you can take a pill that will make you lose weight. You know why? It's because it's a laxative and because you'll be in your pants, okay?

Literally. Or the tapeworm.

So you go right ahead if that's, you know, if you want to picture your favorite celebrity, that's what they're selling to you, you go right ahead and take it and then and we'll just think about that image. So yeah, as lovely as it is. So I'll move on from there. But so you, obviously because you're doing a client service and you're in the photography field, you're dealing with things like rights, like cancellations and whatnot. What role has legal and contracts played in developing your business and making sure it's legit?

Yeah, it was definitely over time, again, I had to learn Baby steps. I wish that I had gone in, again, I thought it was just a hobby, so if I had known it was going to be a business, I would say so much more, I would start so differently than I did. But the good thing is, is my personality, I learn from other people's experiences very well. So there's a lot of Facebook groups I'm in where they'll put out like, this happened to me, 'Client did this, and do I need to get a lawyer?' You know, like that kind of stuff. And I'll go, 'Oh my goodness, I don't have a contract for that. I need to do that.' And so I have contracts for— so I have a session fee that's non-refundable, except— oh, I don't even remember the wording I use because I'm not the legal person. But there's like, you know, you can say a session fee, or you can call it Sitting fee, or certain, yeah, there's deposit, like, so you have to find the right word legally of what you should use so that it doesn't come back and bite you in the butt. But it's like, especially if it's non-refundable, right? Yeah, right, terms in the contract. So then I have rescheduling fees because I see all the time people like, I'm a client and keeps rescheduling, this is the 4th time they've rescheduled, and it's not just sessions, it could be like a session, it could be a meeting, it could be a viewing appointment. So I have rescheduling fees, and it's always my sitting fee, or whatever you wanna call it, and my rescheduling fees are high enough that people don't wanna lose the money, but not so high that they're like, oh my gosh, she charges like everything, you know, so my rescheduling fee's like $100, 'cause people can lose $50, but $100, even at my pricing, even at high-end pricing, they'd rather put $100 towards prints than $100 towards rescheduling.

It just makes them think twice.

And then, I'm not a bad guy, so there's always like the time where they call me and they're like, we are throwing up and I'm sick, and I won't charge them the fee, but the fee is there to protect me.

Exactly, you get to be the nice guy, and that's That's what I always tell my clients is, look, it's your contract. You can always decide to waive and be like, I pardon the prisoners, and you're not gonna exercise the powers that you have, but you can.

Yes, and so if they tell me with enough, and I'm home, I have a studio space, and if they tell me and I'm set up at my studio and I've got all my stuff set up and I'm ready to show them their pictures and they tell me 15 minutes before, yeah, they're gonna get the rescheduling fee because I just left my family, when I still had some kids at home, it's like, I got a babysitter and I'm here and now you're canceling. So it's there to protect me from that. And I'll tell you what, once I put that in my contract, nobody reschedules. Unless they're sick and they have a pretty legit reason. And I know my clients pretty well at that point that I can tell if they're trying to pull one on me or if they're legit. So that helped a ton. So that's one thing. And then cancellation contracts. If somebody wants to cancel and I still have the nonrefundable fee, fee, I have a cancellation contract because I'm afraid that like, especially if it's one of my senior team members and if they drop out and I've already shot like 3 shoots with them and they've already paid me money for it and then they like drop out or something, I don't, and I don't get the cancellation back from them, I'm always worried that somebody might like sue me and be like, my daughter was on your team and you didn't give her pictures from the shoot, you know, so I'm very persistent with like trying to get that back. Then because I deliver products and prints and stuff to my clients too, I have a delivery contract where they sign saying we received our product so that they can't come back and be like, you never delivered our order. And it's like, you know, hundreds of dollars worth of stuff that I delivered. Yeah. And saying that we saw all of it and everything looks good so that I know that like they can't come back and be like, this was damaged. And it's like, no, you saw you signed off that it looked good.

Here's your signature, actually, right here.

Yeah. And then there's other contracts, like I have, um, model contracts for like if I shoot someone for free or for trade. I have contracts for that, um, that especially if they're under 18, they have to have their parents sign. And most of the clients are under 18. Um, I have trade contracts, and then family contracts are a little different. So yeah, there's quite a few. I really only have 2, that they all— oh, and payment plans. I do, because I'm high-end, I do every so often have somebody that wants to split it up into payments. And with my payment plan contract, they leave their— I think this is important too— they leave their credit card information so that if like they're overdue and overdue and overdue and overdue, I can always like run it. If they're like, you're supposed to pay me, I can always run it. And, but I also have like, if you're over overdue this much, there's interest, all that kind of stuff. So the ones I use the most though are just my basic contract with like the non-refundable part, delivery end on my part, all the if I can't come and, you know, like all the legal stuff.

If this happens, force majeure, indemnification, et cetera, et cetera, yeah.

I don't even understand because I'm a right-brained person. So I have like the one contract and then like the delivery contract. Those are the ones I use the most, but I do have a ton of other ones in place for like when I need them.

Mm-hmm. And then do you use, uh, do you use a client management software or something, or do you do like DocuSign?

Yeah, yeah, I use one that's for photographers specifically called ShootQ. Okay. And it does all my emailing, integrated emailing and booking, and takes payments and everything from it. So there's a ton of There's a ton out there. Yeah, sometimes I think about switching because there's certain things I don't like, but they're always a pain to set up. So if you're gonna set one up, you just have to like get that free trial and spend that whole free month like setting it up so that it's ready to go once you start paying for it. And it's a beast. People will be like, they'll drop it and be like, it was too confusing. And I'm like, just, it just takes time.

It just takes time. And any software like that that does a lot of things is gonna be a little bit of a much to set up because all of those things, all those integrations, if you wanted to talk to your email, you're going to have to set that up. Payment processors, like there's, yeah, there's no super great shortcuts there. So, you know, if you want to do a lot of things, yeah, you research it a little bit.

I did a lot of prep before, so when I got it, I basically like just my emails, I had like my PDF guides and all that like ready to go. And so all I did was like copy and paste it into my email.

So smart. Yeah.

So, um, but that's because like I went to a conference and they kind of like prepped us for it, so I got all ready before I signed up and then started going in on it.

Yeah, you'd done your homework, so you're ready to hit the ground running on that. Yeah. So, and then in terms of, um, with rights with images, is that something that you get a lot of pushback forwards, or how do you manage that? Because that's a question I get from a lot of people who— a lot of people don't understand the way that copyright works in terms of, hey, whoever shoots the image owns the copyright unless you've made plans otherwise. Is that something you feel like you have to explain with clients, or, you know, do they kind of accept where you're at?

I always, I mean, it's in my contract, so anything that's really important for my contract, I make sure I tell my clients 3 times. I feel like, you know, some people are like, oh, people are dumb. Well, I'm not trying to treat them like they're dumb and that they don't understand. For me, it's like usually they just want to get to the good part where it's like, when do we take pictures? How much do you charge? They want like the easy answer and they don't listen to everything, so I'm very repetitive. I'm very like, this is a session fee, this is, and I send them my pricing, like, 'cause they pay the session fee and then there's like collections, and I send them that 3 times, like before they book, when they're gonna book, like they have to sign that they read it, so I'm very repetitive about the very important things, pricing being one. Image rights and image, not altering my images. Seniors love their filters, and it is in my contract that they cannot edit their filters, I mean, use their filters to edit my images because that doesn't represent my brand. So, and I'll get clients sometimes who will post something and I'll just kindly message them, and I try to be as quick as I can because obviously when they get 700 likes on their picture, they don't want to take it down. Post it. So I try to be on top of it, but it's not like I sit on my Instagram all day. But if I catch it, then I'm very quickly to be like, hey, or sometimes they don't download the image the right way and it's really pixelated and I want my work to look good, so I'll just message them, hey, you have an issue with downloading, delete that one, I can make sure you get a good one. With the image rights, I don't get a ton of pushback. I don't even, so I have 4 collections and I don't even give high resolution, which is the printable size of an image. Except in my top package. So people don't, they kind of, they're prepped, they're pretty educated by the time we get to the ordering appointment part. And so I'm, I think educating your clients before they even inquire with you, you start educating them. And that will be on your blog or your Instagram, both, whatever, whatever means your clients are mostly coming to you. You need to make sure that it's ready, that they understand what you are and what you're offering. Because my clients print images through me, so most of them don't need the high-resolution image for digital. They just want to share it on their Instagram. For the clients who do, there's an option for them, and they can have the high resolution. And I make sure I explain to them that they get the print right to print if, if they're getting that with it, but that I still— in their contract, they sign off that I own the copyright and and that I have the ability to use their images on my website, my blog, my Instagram, because obviously, like, if they don't give me that permission, then I can't share that image.

So I can't use it for promotional purposes. Yeah, in your portfolio.

Yeah. So yeah, I really don't get a ton of pushback. Most parents, like, most seniors and parents want to be featured on Instagram these days. And I do get girls in printed in some magazines sometimes, and for the most part, they're, yes, do it, you know. So It hasn't been too hard. I think that I'd run into that if I did a little bit more commercial work. I get companies that'll email me asking me to do clothing shoots for them, and I do have pricing that I can send over to them for that, but I have yet to book any of them because they don't like my pricing.

Which just goes back to the same discussion before, but that, yeah, you, you know what you are and what you're offering, and sometimes people just want a deal, and if they want a deal, then they can get a deal experience.

Yeah, so I think that's where, because I asked them, and most of them, most of the like clothing companies don't even know. They're like a new company, they're just starting out, and I'll ask them questions like, do you need the copyright? How long do you want to hold the copyright for? How many years? And I'll be like, I have different pricing for this. So, and they're like, what? You know, so most of the time they don't even know the answer to that.

And so the answer is, yeah, you, you probably want it. Yeah, if it's editorial work companies and you're going to want to use it and it's part of your main branding, but it also means you're probably going to have to to pay for it, because that's a totally different beast for someone to have full rights to their images.

Yeah. So I would say I know very minimal about the copyright situation and pricing. I do have friends that do that, so I've asked them and kind of created my own pricing. I've had people come and want to use an image for like a book, and I'll send them a pricing for like that image specifically, and even they usually don't want to pay that either. So, so yeah.

No, well, I— it actually sounds like you know quite a bit about images and rights. Right, so a lot more than, yeah, some of my clients who, yeah, we have to kind of back to square one in terms of, yeah, what are the legalities involved with that and making sure that everyone's happy. You mentioned that you sometimes have some people use your images, you know, in companies. I've had multiple people come to me with that problem that says, hey, I took a picture and I see it, you know, on an ad somewhere and I didn't sign off on that.

Has that ever happened to you or have you had people taking your pictures off your site or Yes, I've been contacted in email before from other photographers who'll say, I saw your work at this site and they're selling your images. And that's a hard one because there's so many loopholes there, it's hard to catch people. I try not, I don't wanna get like sue happy and waste a ton of time and money like getting into it, so I really try to focus on my business. For the smaller scale, which is companies sharing on Instagram, And they'll just share an image. If it depends, most of the people that reshare my image on Facebook, I actually don't mind, right?

And even though, even though that's illegal, guys, okay? Even if you give credit, you have to get permission, okay? If you don't own the rights to an image, you have to get permission.

One, steal my image and ask, and they don't ask, I always contact the company and I'll like DM them if it's Instagram, which is where it usually is, and I just say, hey, thank you so much for sharing my image and loving my work. Number one, if they haven't tagged me, I'm like, please tag me. Like, if they like, sometimes they'll tag my senior and they won't tag me, and I'm like, excuse me. Like, I had a big prom dress company, like this national prom dress company do that, and I'm like, uh, no. But then I always say like, I'll say like, I don't mind you keeping this image up in the future, please ask me for permission or I'll have to ask you to take it down. So I kind of give them like a warning, and most people are very like, oh yeah, sorry, you know, like are great and sorry and that kind of stuff. But if I had someone that I could tell was definitely making a bunch of money off my picture, I would definitely contact them and be like, hey, you need to pay for that image, right?

Yeah, let's talk about— let's talk about a licensing fee. I'll send you over my contract.

So yeah, so most of the time it hasn't been big enough that it's been huge issue. I just always write them a nice little personal message and say, please contact me, share my images, and I'd appreciate you always tagging me. And, you know, like, or like my hair and makeup artist sometimes who's not tagged in it as well. So, but if on a bigger scale, yeah, there'd be— and that's happening more and more. And that's a— it's— there, people think it's like a gray area because we let it be a gray area. And I'm not necessarily helping that by letting you know. So, but it's not a gray area.

Yeah, they belong to you. And That's why you have, you know, website terms, and that's why you— and you have a copyright notice.

And if it's your client, it gets tricky too, especially with me. I have 18-year-olds, and there's— I mean, I've had some clients who will ask me, and they won't sign off necessarily on certain parts of my contract, and we have to kind of rework it because maybe sensitive jobs for like the dad or that kind of stuff.

They don't want their picture all over the place.

Yeah, yeah. So there are some, and I'm— I don't have a problem. I get enough seniors that I don't have a problem not posting their pictures, it's not like I'm like, but I need the work, you know. So I get enough to use that I'm happy to work with people. But yeah, it's definitely case sensitive, especially for your clients, because if they didn't give you permission to share it either, then somebody else is sharing it and it can get tricky.

Yeah, it can get super tricky. No, that's a good point. So, um, okay, so I want to kind of wrap up. You, I mean, you've mentioned, you know, so many great tips for people who are running a especially obviously they're a photography business, but even any kind of creative business about how to, you know, kind of hone in on business lessons. Can you kind of give us, you know, 3 actionable tips of something that you can do if you're trying to take steps to, you know, like you said, maybe move out of that middle stage of you've been playing business but now you're ready to get real, get legit. What are some action steps people can take?

Number 1, I would say, is invest in your education. This is huge, no matter what stage you're in. I'm still learning, it's not like you ever reach a point where you're, I know everything, I'm good. And I got featured on this magazine, so now I never have to market again. It doesn't happen, it doesn't work that way, yeah. So it could be business education, it could be artistic education. Focus on the areas where you're lacking and find either, there's workshops, there's conferences, and there's one-on-one mentoring, which is actually my favorite thing is one-on-one because I feel a little bit more like I'm getting more attention and like a really safe space too. But I have like high school girls that are like, I'm gonna major in photography, do you have any tips for me? And my first tip is don't major in photography. I always tell them to major in business because it is 80% business and the rest is just like art. And I am completely self-taught in photography except for what I've learned at conferences and workshops. Obviously I can't take credit for like things that I've implemented from other photographers who have taught me, but I think that your education investment comes before your equipment investment. Ooh. You can take good pictures and run a business on a lower-end camera and with lower-end lenses, but understanding how to run a business is gonna be way more helpful. So yeah, everybody that asks me about like what they should go into if they're interested in photography, I say go into business. I wish I did, I didn't. I didn't do it. I wish I had. My husband did, and we could have done it together. But so that would be number one, invest in it. And it can either be at school, or again, there's like workshops, conferences everywhere that'll teach you stuff. I personally do like smaller like workshops and personal versus conferences. I rarely learn meat at a big conference. I get a lot of like exterior fluff, and they're fun, and I hang out with photographers, and I make friends.

But, and you get, you know, boomerang-worthy photos, always important.

Obviously. But yeah, I don't get a lot of like meat that's really gonna take my business to the next level. So I always advise to do smaller like workshops at least that are usually cheaper than like a one-on-one. But I've had some amazing, I've had some meh, like flop business workshops I've gone to, and I've had some amazing ones that have really helped a lot. So you can do some research, ask other photographers. I get messages like, I saw you went to this, what did you think about it? So you can do that and ask people. Another one would be to— this is more— I kind of said this earlier. I would follow who inspires you and unfollow people who make you feel bad about yourself. That could be— you might not even follow any photographers, like, if they all make you feel envious or jealous or not good enough. Follow other creatives, other business owners who you admire. One of the best things I did in my business was I mentored with a girl, and it was for purely artistic reasons. It wasn't even like business related. I just saw her images and she was so inspiring to me that I paid for a one-on-one mentoring with her, and she was just fantastic. And I felt like it kind of really launched myself into the next level of art. And I would do it again with her, like, she's so fantastic. But, and I really just clear my Instagram out and when people make me feel bad about myself, I'm just like, okay, unfollow, unfollow. Your competition, unfollow. Stop worrying about what other people are doing, pricing, marketing, any of that. What are you trying to make, what are you trying to do? So I kind of said all that earlier, but I think that's a really big one. Let's see, I would say photography-wise as well, to understand light. So light is how cameras work, off of light. So not being able— if you can learn how to shoot at any time of the day, that would be huge for your photography. I used to be scared of the sun and scared of certain times of the day, and once I got past that, then it's really been able to— like, it doesn't matter. It's like I'm— my confidence— my clients feel my confidence. 'cause they're like, oh, is this this? And I'm like, I'm not worried about that. They're like, isn't it better to have shade? I'm like, I'm not worried about that. You know, like they can read my confidence and they're like, oh, she knows what she's doing. So learning light, because I see so many people that are like, I'm a natural light photographer. And usually, usually that means, not 100%, but usually that means I don't know how to use lighting. So they don't know how to use a flash, they don't know how to use strobes, And even if you don't want to use that stuff, it's very important to educate yourself and learn how to use light so that you can manipulate it. Or if you are shooting a wedding reception, you're not terrified about how to light the dark church that has no windows. So I think learning your light is good. And then the last one I would say is when it comes to marketing, I would focus on what sets your brand apart from everybody else. I would think that's like the number one thing for marketing because most likely no matter what part of the country you're in, you're oversaturated with photographers. And, um, so, and you might be in a middle pricing where 80% of the photographers are all sitting in the same pricing. So what sets you apart from all of them? Why would people book you over the other person? And that's going to probably launch your marketing into ways that into areas and avenues that you didn't even think of for a while.

Oh, those are all awesome. Okay, I want to recap those real quick for everyone. Um, so first was invest in education, you know, and don't limit yourself to the, oh, I didn't major in it in school, that, you know, that ship has sailed. There's all different kinds of educational opportunities, you know, conference, informal mentoring, and otherwise. And focus on especially those parts where you have gaps, where you're weakest, and not what you already know that you like, okay? That's, that's probably not what you want to get more info on. Number 2 is, um, be careful about your creative influences on you. Follow who is inspiring to you, you know, um, follow who you are interested in and who helps, you know, enrich your creativity and especially, uh, your, your aspirational dreams for your business. Um, unfollow people who don't fit into that category, you know, no excuses, no apologies. Third was understand light And I would say, you know, if someone's not a photographer listening to this, is understand what you need to so that your clients can feel confident in being with you, because that is so important. It's for that client experience, for them to feel like they're taken care of and they're— the best parts about them are going to be showcased through your work. And number 4 was make sure you're honing in on what sets your brand apart. You know, really work on that marketing message and especially if you happen to be in an oversaturated field like photography is, like, you know, food blogging is, like, you know, so many of the things that we love to do. And that's okay that you love to do it, but so do a lot of other people. So you're just— you're gonna have to be smart and you're gonna have to put some hard work into figuring out what is your secret sauce that you can bring to the table. Yeah, yeah, all the things. Okay, well, if people want to know more about you and follow you and all your great work that you're doing, where can they find you?

Well, my social media handle is the same everywhere. It's CBP Photography because CP Photography was taken. So CBP, it's my full name, Chelsea Brooke Peterson Photography. CBP Photography, that's my Pinterest, my Snapchat, my Instagram, my Twitter. I'm not actually active on all of these things. I can't— you're there, you're there. I'm there. Everything, like everything is that handle. And then my website is www.chelseypetersenphotography.com, and that's my Gmail too.

And if you are interested in— yeah, obviously if you're an aspiring photographer or if you have someone who's a senior in your life, and especially if you're in the Utah area and looking for someone—

and do you travel outside to do seniors, or I have seniors that have come to me Okay. I've shot from Oregon, Idaho, Wyoming. I've gotten questions from Texas, so, but they usually come to me because my travel fee is so high.

Because you are a pricing boss, babe, and because—

I'm like, unless I can bring, and I'm like, I have to be able to pay to bring my assistant, my husband, with me, so I'm like— So, and my hair and makeup artist, she's a huge part of my team, and it'd be really hard for me to want to go somewhere and like, I have to bring her.

So yeah, she's, she's, she's part of the deal for sure. So, well, awesome. Um, so make sure, yeah, you, you check Chelsea out and, and give her some love and, uh, check out all the great things that she has going on. Thank you so much, uh, for being here. It was so nice to chat with you.

Yes, I'm so excited to listen to myself on all the things.

Thanks, Chels.