How to Manage your Brand like the Pros - Lessons from Noelle Nicolai, Corporate Brand Strategist for Global Luxury Brands - 009

This is Law and Wit, Creative Counsel for Entrepreneurs. This is episode 9, How to Manage Your Brand Like the Pros: Lessons from Noelle Nicolai, Corporate Brand Strategist for Global Luxury Brands. Welcome to Law and Wit, Creative Counsel for Entrepreneurs. I'm your host, Brittany Rettell, mother of 4, entrepreneur, naptime lawyer, and attorney for creative entrepreneurs. I'm here to share inspiration and action so that you can tackle your business blocks and confidently own your business in every sense of the word. Thank you so much for being here.

All right, hi everyone, Brittany Rettell back again, and I am so excited about our guest today. We have with us Noelle Nicolai, and she is a native New Yorker, lotto player, mother of two, and global brand director. Noelle leads a team that makes hotel stays exceptional. She's brought up in the creative, innovative, and deadline-driven world of New York City advertising, and she now runs global brand strategy and marketing for 5 upscale and lifestyle hotel brands at one of the world's biggest hotel companies. So Noelle, needless to say, knows what she's talking about with brands, and we're excited to have her today to talk about all things brand and building a brand and what it means to be in kind of a modern world where this word gets thrown a lot, but we're trying to dig into it.

I have so many thoughts on how people use the word brand. But we'll get to that. Hi, I'm so glad to be here. What, what Brittany forgot to mention is that she and I used to sit next to each other in an office in the ASB building of Brigham Young University.

Um, office is a bit— that's a grand statement.

It was a closet, cleaning closet turned desk, and, uh, do some PR work together for the university. So it's, it's good to be side by side again.

It is, it is. And it was, you know what it was, it was like my first kind of real job, you know, with responsibility. And we used to have to go interview professors and try to understand and not roll our eyes when they talked about what they were working on and try to make it interesting. It was a hard game.

Yeah. You know, I feel like this is another podcast, Brittany. I feel like you and I could just wax philosophical on that whole experience for a while.

But seriously, yeah, another day, another day, another day. So, um, so I mean, as, as I kind of alluded to in the intro, and so Noelle has, you know, started out kind of working in the creative fields and then, you know, slowly— I mean, not slowly, but really rapidly you know, people saw her strength in terms of really brand development and getting it for companies in terms of who they were going to connect with and how, and now does it for, you know, a premier luxury hotel brand. So tell us a little bit about, you know, what makes a strong brand, and when you're working with your company, with your team, you know, how do you even start that process?

Yeah, well, what's so interesting to me, I think you touched on it when we started this chat, is is the word brand and what it means to different people. And there are so many people that touch the aspects of a brand in its entirety that everyone thinks that part that they touch is the brand. So if you ask a designer what is brand, they'll lend it more to the creative side of like fonts and colors and design language. And if you ask a strategist what a brand is, they'll talk about architecture and core values. And if you ask a marketer what a brand is, it's how they convey that. It's their advertising language. It's, it's the video content and whatnot. To me, it's such a loaded question as someone who kind of runs the gamut across that entire spectrum of what a brand is, is what makes one strong or what makes one good. For me, how this process starts and how it started for me, I guess maybe I'll back up and tell you I started my career in advertising in New York at a little agency called McGarry Bowen. We're launching new creative products for Chase, for JPMorgan Chase, and they needed to create 3 new credit cards. Not what will it look like, what's the design of the card. I mean, all of that work came later, but it really was how do you find a white space or a unique position in the marketplace and then create a need from that. And that opened my eyes to more than just campaigns that tell a story or sell a product, but really being thoughtful and strategic and looking for revenue-generating opportunities in the marketplace. So what I do now in hospitality is similar to that across the brand spectrum. I live and breathe brands day to day, and for me, there are a couple things that make good ones really good. And the kind of the opposite end of the pendulum is like the bad ones aren't quite getting this right. So one is this idea of emotional connections. And I think everyone you talk to will touch on this, but you know that people spend more when there's an emotional hook involved, right? So as a brand, you've got to really find out not only what your product is, but extend that product beyond to What is the emotional or lifestyle benefit of what you're offering? I think an example that's really, really awesome is Peloton. Are you familiar with that cycle?

Yes. Yeah.

Okay. So I actually have one upstairs and I don't ride it, but think about this.

But it looks beautiful.

It's an insanely expensive, insanely expensive bicycle that you have at home and you ride. And I bought into, yeah, I would use this. I'd never been to a SoulCycle in my life. I am not a biker or whatever they call themselves by any means, but the emotional connection or how how they managed to position that product beyond the functional aspects of it captured me and captured America. I mean, they did $4 million in sales last year. They're set to, I think, more than triple that this year. They just launched a new treadmill product. And what's so interesting about this brand is it started as a functional ride-at-home bike company. So if you go back a couple years ago and you look at their advertising campaigns, nobody knew what a Peloton bike was. It was about, this is the design of this sleek bike and here are the features that work and the software components of it and all of these things that I actually don't give a beep about. Go ahead.

Yeah.

Right? But now what they've been able to do in building emotional connections, they built this community of super fans. So the instructors that they have become in their own way influencers and leaders in the community. These people support one another. They're involved in this brand in a really personal and intimate way. And Peloton stokes that fire with what they do in advertising and what they're doing in social media. So they are creating these super fans. And I think it's impressive from an example of like how to go from the functional communication of the value proposition of your brand to creating an engaged community and really touching people on an emotional level and what that's done for them in terms of generating revenue. So that's one.

Yeah.

Um, I think the other one is an unwavering point of view. And this is something that you see all of the time, and I think it's especially challenging in an age where people perceive— and, and I believe this— but people say that they are their brand, right? But, but humans are complex and they can't be boiled down into 3 core attributes or 5 core attributes, right? So I think it's really important whether you're your brand or you're a larger corporate brand to have such a strong distinct point of view and to stick to it.

Right.

Right. And that doesn't mean it can't evolve. It doesn't mean that it can't change or be impacted by trends or in the marketplace, but just knowing what your foundation is and sticking to it. And I think there are some examples of brands like not getting it right. Gap. For example, they tried to be something and they did really, really well for a period. I think fashion is also just a super tough industry right now, but they lost their way a little bit. I think J.Crew is the same thing. You can see how wavering on that foundational point of view actually confuses or alienates your audience and then you're lost.

Right.

I mean, people say that in terms of you need to niche down, you need to be specific, and people are afraid because they don't want to alienate. They want to try to cast a wide net, and that's our instinct as humans is you want You've got that wide net, but it doesn't always get you the numbers like you want. You can't be everything to everyone.

Everybody, exactly. And having that distinct point of view, I think, just allows people to understand and grasp what you stand for. So those are brands that have done it well. I think an individual who has authentically and beautifully built her brand is Elle Rowley. I don't know if you know Solly Baby and what she's done. I mean, talk about emotional connections, right? Those pictures of babies day after day are so stunning. But she's so authentic. And she's extended her content beyond baby wraps. She has a quote series in one of her content pillars on social, and all of those so perfectly reflect back to what she has built as a really sincere and heartwarming brand about goodness and about, I would say, values, right? And family and things that matter. It'd be interesting, you know, this guy, Jeff Bezos, I don't know if you've heard of him.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think he shills books or something.

Yeah, yeah, that's what he does. He's known for this quote, "A brand is what people say about you when you're not in the room." Yeah. And it'd be really interesting actually, almost in the newlywed game, to take people and their brands and put them in a panel and have other people say, "What is this brand about?" And you pick 3 words and they pick 3 words and you see where the alignment is. And where there is alignment shows that they've actually done a really great job. And I think that I think Elle's a phenomenal example of that.

Yeah, for sure.

And then I touched on another thing, is like extending beyond their products. And I think you see this more where people get caught up in the thing that they're selling or why the thing is good and not how the thing makes your life better. Right. I think great brands can communicate that next level.

Yeah, and they, and they can— they find a way to connect that and to keep the story moving forward, you know, and not get stuck on this is what we do and so tied to a physical you know, or if it's a service or whatever. Yeah, yeah.

You know, it's interesting, is the second that you make your value proposition or what you're talking about functional, about what the product is or what it has to offer, or even your services, right? Like, here is my photography package and here's what you get, rather than something a little bit more abstract or that emotional connection, you become at risk of parity because anybody else can go out and tell that same message, right? And you see it with in the baby moccasin world. We'll leave names out of this, right? But there now are a lot of players in that field. But the differentiation comes in the emotional connection and messaging, and not just, here's a leather baby moccasin at this price.

Which is relevant to what, you know, the advice that I give a lot of people, because obviously in my, you know, when I work with clients and they're concerned about people copying and ripping off their stuff, and that's the world we live in online, you know, they want to know What can we do to protect? And we can take some stuff to protect that, but ultimately the best way to protect your business and your growth is to have something that's distinct enough that someone can't just purely distill it down to its function.

A product.

And then copy and paste it, you know? Because there will always be someone in China who can make whatever it is that you're making.

My dear friend, Caitlin Wilson, is a beautiful textile designer and she makes incredible fabrics and wallpapers and rugs. And they're not only like feminine and beautiful, and she stays so true to that brand. I think what's so interesting, and I hope it's interesting if she finds out I said all these wonderful things about her, but also if she agrees. But what I think is so unique about Caitlin, and this I think is a great example of someone who stays true to their brand, is she's identified who the target is and who buys her product and what she wants that to be. And there is a space for these beautiful, well-made, a little more traditional kind of feminine floral products. Um, but Caitlin in and of her own life, she is that person, but she's also so much more. So when she decorates her own home, it may not be top to bottom in this look and feel, but she knows who wants that and how to market to them. Anyway, she makes these beautiful rugs and these beautiful textiles, and you go on Spoonflower and all the knockoffs are there, like, 1,000 times over. I was just scrolling Instagram the other way, and there's a huge rug manufacturer who is essentially making one of her rugs, the Navy Kismet, in a different color, and I sent a picture to her. The difference is for her the quality, um, and kind of the story behind it and inspired by the places that she's lived and where she and her family travel to. Um, and that's why she's able to do what she does so well, because there will always be that kind of IP ripoff. And in a creative space, it's super hard to protect.

It is, yeah. Depending on, you know, you can get people to take down pictures and, you know, you can There's things you can do to protect your name and your logo, and you know, we go all over that. But, um, in terms of— yeah, the production— yeah, it's, it's hard.

Um, I got a cease and desist once because I— yes, and I actually have to give credit to this business owner who will remain nameless, but she had made these darling t-shirts that fit with the theme of my, my baby's room. I had had my first son, and I had like in the midst of postpartum depression, and I made him this pillow that went with his room because it's something I felt like I could do because lots of other things.

Anyway, right, nesting creative in full force, like, yeah, yeah.

So I get this cease and desist in the mail from a law firm in New York City, and it's citing an Instagram post I did about this pillow made from her t-shirt. And I'm like bawling, and I'm like, what is going on? And I had to sign this agreement that I would never make and sell them. And every now and again they send me an email to remind me, and I'm like I'll never make a pillow again. Anyway, I digress.

Yes, but that's just to show you, I mean, it happens, you know, and I mean, I have people—

Protect your brand boundaries.

Yeah, yeah, exactly, 'cause there are people who get on Etsy and they're honest sellers and they get cease and desist from people throwing their weight around, and it's a real deal, and some of it's something that should be looked at, 'cause strategically they may be getting too close to another brand, and some of it's not, and it's just people throwing their weight around and scaring folks. You've talked about kind of the emotional connection and the way that you kind of go about in terms of making, having something really resonate with the brand and not being too caught up in the function. When you feel like you've kind of nailed a brand, how do you communicate that with people that you work with? I think that's kind of the other really hard part is I think someone, when you're a team of one, solopreneur, the head honcho. You can kind of get it up in here in your head and in your heart, but, um, how do you get other players on the same team? Because you manage a team at this point, so how do you get that vision communicated to everyone else?

You know what's so— and so this is such an important part of corporate life, but I think also in this entrepreneur space, I call it marketing of marketing, um, or internal socializing. Um, and it's a step that I think is often overlooked but so critical to the success of something. Like, if you can't get everybody who's going to touch and execute and work on this on the same page to understand the goals of the brand or what it's about or really wrap their head and hands around it, executionally will be a huge mess and a miss. I benefit really greatly from existing in an environment where there is a little more stringent function and architecture behind this for a brand. So when I say there's a brand architecture, like, Quite literally, there is a document called brand architecture where you have to articulate what the brand stands for in a short phrase and then have a paragraph bringing that to life. And then you pick the core attributes and you explain what each of those mean. And then that trickles down to a tone of voice that every copywriter uses and understands. And you bring the tone of voice to life in a way that's like a person, right? So is this the voice of the best man at a wedding that's affable and funny that everybody likes? He's a little bit clever. Is this the voice of a nurturing, caring older woman? And not only do those types of things help you with understanding or bringing it to life, but then when you get to like hiring voiceover talent, you know exactly who you're looking for, right? And it just all goes back to, um, a really strong and unwavering point of view. Um, and then from there you kind of blow it out. I, I think that everybody needs to have that documented and written down. And when I have interacted and in the space with entrepreneurs or more creative-minded people. Um, I, I worked when my first job in New York City after I got married, when before I went into advertising and I knew what I wanted to do, I worked for this incredible woman named Francesca Abracciamento, and we did high-end weddings in New York City. And nobody throws a party like Francesca. But what was really interesting to observe in a small business setting and working for her was that it was her. Like, her brand, the business, the service culture, how we answered the phone, all of that was so personal to her. And she took the time to train all of us individually to make sure that we got it. And I think that that is the onus of, of this person, of the creative entrepreneur, to have something in writing that clearly articulates it, to organize your thoughts in a way that other people can understand. And that's the first step in anything that you do. If in a product development, it's like, hey, here's what our brand is about, here's our foundational elements, here's what we stand for, here's what we're trying to deliver. Can you help us in product development? Can you help me with this creative brief to do a marketing campaign? Let's find the right influencers to partner with that bring the brand to life. And having that lens is what lets you do all of that in an airtight way, um, and kind of sing from the same songbook to build it, to build a strong brand.

I bet you have some stories with Francesca.

So, oh man, it's not my story. Can I tell it? Do we have time? Yes, there it could totally be folklore, but, um, a client had asked for a circus-themed wedding in one of the grand ballrooms of a hotel in New York City. And I wish I could remember which one it was. And, and as part of this circus theme, they had live animals. So they brought them in, and then once the animals were in Then you set the room and get it all set up. And hours before the event, the elephant dies in the ballroom. Because like, you know what, you can't get like a young, sprightly elephant because they take like the circus ones that have retired. Like they're, they're kind of old, tired elephants that now do a gig here and there, right? And apparently this elephant dies in the ballroom and there's no way, there's no way to get it out. Like, oh my God, dead elephant middle of the ballroom. And it's like absolute pandemonium and panic, the worst thing you can imagine. And they erect a circus tent around it. No, they do like a big topped red and white circus tent around this dead elephant and make it part of the decor. And nobody knows that they're dining with, with a dead animal, with a dead elephant corpse. Like, that could have been total folklore because the— but I just love that story. It's like, it is a go-getters and a hustlers and like a make lemonade out of lemons kind of story.

No kidding, no kidding. Oh my gosh, I love it. So yeah, needless to say, that's probably not part of what you guys do at Wyndham, is cater to dead elephant entertainment.

It's not. I actually don't like to tell people what I do because I don't think other people's jobs are as fun. And when I have to explain in examples of what I'm responsible for, It actually sounds ridiculous, so don't ask me. Are you going to ask me to tell people?

No, we won't go into specifics, but I mean, I've seen the swatches. I've seen you picking out towels and soaps.

Designing guest rooms, the shampoo you wash your hair with, social media stuff. It's really fun. It's really, really fun.

What a life. What a life. Okay, so I love that in terms of brand architecture. I mean, it's more than just a word of getting pinned down. It's the whole structure and thinking about how do we build this and how— what's the voice look like and what's the, you know, make it really experiential for people so that they get it. Yeah, yeah.

And, and the more, the more that, that, um, someone takes time to be thoughtful and strategic about it and put it down on paper and refine it, um, and I think that there are iterations, like what, what you say you are this week may evolve into kind of a tweak or an iteration of that later, um, But it's just so helpful to help people catch your vision, and it's really helpful for you to kind of always go back to it and have a guiding principle.

Yeah. Tell me about when you were stuck on a project one time, or trying to get something today. Okay, like a little fresh.

It's a little emotional, and I don't think I can name names.

Yes.

Um, I think that every project gets stuck.

Yeah, right.

Like, I've never— the, the type of things that I work on We're always over budget or running late, or I think a really challenging one in my environment is corporate consensus. Like, there's always a lot of stakeholders. Success has many fathers, and getting everyone to buy in and believe and move something forward. So the, the project I'm currently working on is a guest experience innovation, which is super jargony in hospitality and may not be like, what does that even mean?

You know, not to, you know, throw some buzzwords words in there. I mean, anything else you want to lob at it? Just—

yeah, so let me break— let me unpack that for you. Let me break it down. So, um, when you arrive at a hotel, when you walk in, there's a scent in the lobby, there's music playing, there's decor that you're seeing. My team touches all of that, and all of that is tying back to that brand architecture. So if we say that we are about inspiration, the artwork throughout this hotel better knock your socks off. It better be like nothing else you've ever seen. Um, or the music might be new artists that are kind of just up and coming, not that tried and true like top pop that you always hear in lobbies.

Certainly no elevator music, like not in your place.

Yeah, and all of this is kind of thoughtfully curated. So an aspect of what I do is this work stream called guest experience, and that means when you're at a hotel simply as a guest, what do you experience? And that might be something as simple as breakfast, or the fitness center and what's happening there, or something more involved that a hotel does. So in a past life, I worked at Starwood Hotels, which was recently bought by Marriott, and we were constantly evolving the guest experience. And for Westin, which is a brand about wellness, one thing that they did was gear lending. This was a guest experience, meaning when you showed up at the hotel and you wanted to work out, but you forgot your sneakers or didn't have your stuff, you could call down to the front desk and they would deliver workout gear to you. You could do your workout and then send it away and be laundered. It's not your problem. What I'm working on right now is a food and beverage innovation, um, for this hotel brand I work on. Um, and it's an amazing idea and it's so fun and it hits all of the brand pillars. This— it's Tripp Hotels, which is a European brand that has a small footprint in North America and an amazing pipeline. We're going to expand in the next few years with some new builds. And it's about the urban experience. It is hip and modern and savvy. It's not trying to be an upscale boutique hotel, but it's got a little bit of that feel. It's an affordable price point. And we want to find a way to bring the local experience or the city that the hotel is in to our guests, right? So if you're in New York and you can't go wait in line for 2 hours to get the Cronut from Dominique Ansel, what is the experience that we deliver in the hotel to bring something like that to you? We've got this hero of an idea and everybody's on board and we fly to Boston for the day and they're doing our creative session and we're riffing on like, we could take this and do this and then 3 years from now it could evolve into this and social media gold and partnerships here, here, here, and here and we're all bought in. And then we go home and we marinate on the idea a little bit more, and we bring all the stakeholders together because there are always a lot of stakeholders. And we say, this is the idea, does everybody agree with the idea? And we kind of arm wrestle through some of the pros and cons, and there are some concerns around it. It's not a perfect idea, but we all say and agree this is the idea. So the agency, working fast and furiously, not inexpensively, on this project hits the ground running. Um, they're coming up with like final steps, essentially, if I'm, if I'm I have to be vague because of NDAs and innovation ideas, but the cake is baked, right? Like, we picked the kind of cake it was, they bought the ingredients, they're mixing it, it is about to go in the oven, and the most senior person on the team decides this is the wrong idea. They're uncomfortable with it, and they call me in and they're like, this is the wrong idea. And I'm like, help me understand.

Let's circle back on that no.

And then it's a, and then it's a 5-alarm fire, right? Because it's a democratic process. And then we've got to get everybody whose schedules are booked for 15 weeks out to get together in a room and have the discussion and understand the timing implications and the cost implications and the brand marketing implications. And I'm crying because my hero of idea is not going to happen. And that's, it's a tough day. I mean, that's the project itself is, is fun and innovative, but it's a tough day when you're, when you're wrangling those things. And, and today was just an arm wrestle trying to figure out what the right direction was.

Yeah, after hearing that, because sometimes it's, it's a no even when it seems like it's a really great idea. It sounds like a great idea.

Or I've been given projects like, um, to launch and to do that I didn't believe in, right? And I personally have a really hard time selling something that I just can't get behind. And it required a ton of work and a ton of time and a ton of money, and we did it and it failed. It was a miserable failure. Like, we didn't get any social media impressions, there was no news coverage, our hotels didn't execute it. It was lame across the board. Yeah, but you know, pioneers have arrows in their backs, right? You got to be out front and you've got to be doing things.

So, and sometimes action is still good, just moving forward and, you know, and treating it like an experiment and not being afraid to try and, you know, step back a little bit and, you know, be, be a scientist about it and not try to do that.

There's that super cliché poster at Facebook that— fail harder, is that it?

Yes. It's fail fast, right? Yeah, I think, yeah, something like that.

That's a good message. I mean, as much as it's like a little cliché and a little funny, it's— you have to fail. You have to go out there and push things. And I think what's really important, if you're not in a corporate environment with, with a team or departments or people or agencies to help you kind of put the minds together and have a brain trust, like find creative partners. Find like-minded people who you can bounce ideas off of. There are enough people in this space to kind of be that, that for you to be to do that.

Yeah, so, and I think that's good advice for anybody, no matter if they're working for themselves or not. There is to find people who get those juices flowing for you, you know. And yeah, can call me, I got lots of ideas. Yeah, call Noelle. We'll be giving out her personal cell phone number. Yeah, she's obviously got lots of time on her hands, you know, mother of two, jet-setting across the world for her job. Yeah. She's totally free all the time, not going to be a big deal. I don't want to let the moment pass without asking you about your Innovation Agency Creative Session. I saw this on your Instagram feed, total disclosure, because I stalk you openly since you live such an amazing life.

It's not stalking when you're friends.

I saw that you did this and said it was a really cool experience, so tell me about that. That sounds like all cool things all wrapped into one. Great package.

It is amazing. I have had the amazing opportunity to work with some of the best and brightest minds in advertising and marketing and branding. Um, and agencies are really special places because they're, um, this playground of the creative where all of these minds come together and literally all day all of they're doing is like riffing and bouncing ideas off one another and elevating creative game, essentially. Yeah. So like a couple years ago we worked with this agency in LA called Phenomenon, which you'll never find. It's owned by this guy named Krish, who's, who's brilliant and knows it. Um, but I remember sitting in one of their presentations and just thinking like, I want your skills, like I want to do what you do, teach me your ways, right? Yeah, like you can be my Yoda, like we can make it happen in a non-creepy way for you for 3 months just to understand how you think, and then, you know, go back and do my regular job. So anyway, um, as I mentioned, one of of these work streams that my— me and my team are responsible for is guest experience.

Yeah.

And sometimes you need a little help getting out of your own way. So as is the case with anything, and I think maybe what the macro takeaway, um, for people in this is not that you need to go hire a big expensive agency, but that if you can get out of whatever your, your vertical is or whatever it is that you're selling and talk to people who are doing their thing in other industries or spaces and have them help you think about things, the ideas that will come to the table from that will be so much better than what you can think of kind of in your own little trench or shell.

So yeah, maybe be careful about the, you know, the creative echo chamber there.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and, and bring opposing— it's, it's, um, what's that Lincoln book? Guys, clearly I'm like the academic here.

Well, it's all right.

Team of Rivals? Is that the book about how Abe Lincoln like selected in his cabin, all cabinet, all of these opposing point of views or different people with different backgrounds. But the idea is like very John Stuart Mills and, and ideas rising to the top, right, in this, in this forum of discussion. Anyway, um, so here we are needing ideas from a creative agency or from internally, and we partnered with this agency Continuum out of Boston. We had this offsite where we flew up to their offices for a day. And the other thing that's kind of like table stakes for an agency is you've got to have super sexy office with amazing views, which like everybody from a corporate environment walks in and is like, oh, I wish I sat here.

Yeah.

Um, so you walk in this loft and it's in this kind of hip and funky up-and-coming part of Boston, and it's wall-to-wall windows looking out on the harbor, and it's just incredible. And they've got like bright colors and cool lighting and, and amazing food and all of these things. Like, I'm, I'm totally wooed at this point, right?

Right.

It doesn't matter what they try and sell me, I'd be like, that's the best idea I ever heard. Um, and then we go into a creative session and The way that these are structured and kind of what I do across the board is evaluating ideas regardless of what they are against brand criteria. And you're triangulating the strength of that idea on your business goals and metrics, market data and trends, and then stakeholder goals and feedback or audience goals and feedback. So to take kind of that theory and bring it to life. Let's say, um, in, in hospitality, which is what I do, food and beverage— totally making this up, right? Um, no, but in hospitality, food and beverage, my business KPIs are to create a compelling dining experience that drives more revenue from 11 AM to 2 PM, right? Like, I've got the early breakfast hit, but then we find out that, like, that dies and there's no F&B revenue and I've got this dry spell, so what can I do? That's what I want to do as a business. And then in the trend space, in the, in the, in what's going on in F&B, you see a bunch of different things. You see that brunch is really big, but grab-and-go or fast casual is, is all the rage right now. You see that there's this trend towards farm-to-table or whole foods or something that's a little bit more healthy. You see an idea of like non-alcoholic beverages kind of coming back into play, and some of these don't particularly pertain to what it is I'm trying to accomplish, and some of them do. So now I've got kind of these, these insights. I've got my brand objectives and business objectives and what my brand stands for. And then I've got my stakeholders, right? And here's all of the business leaders at my company that I'll say, well, owners really are looking for something that they can make work in the existing footprint, or they're only going to want to spend this much money to get something up and running. So we start to kind of box in what the idea can be.

Right, because you're looking at logistical constraints here, you know.

Yeah, listen, the best innovations are the ones that get made, right? You can have a great idea all day long, but if the rubber never hits the road, it doesn't matter how awesome that Tesla train that's gonna take 5 seconds to get from New York to DC is. That's amazing when you build it, right? Until then, it's just a wacky idea. Yeah, right.

Yeah, it's just a really cool wax model by a guy with a big, you know, floor-to-ceiling windows in his office. That's what that is, like, yeah.

I mean, if anybody can do it, Tesla can. But anyway, I digress. So, so the best innovations to me are the ones that get made. And so we've got to consider all of these restraints or considerations. Um, and so what we do is we come together, you brainstorm, you're like, what if we did this? Or I saw a brand do this outside of our space, how could we take that and turn it on its head and apply it to what we're doing? And, and you're just kind of bouncing ideas off of one another. And then literally you take the rigor of sitting down and plotting the strength of the idea. And of course, everybody— it's so, it's so interesting in my life. The hardest part about working on a brand is making decisions for the brand. You have to put on that lens and that hat, and there's a very big difference between me-search and research. And as humans, we are sometimes incapable of of realizing that our perspectives or opinions or experiences are subjective and they're not actually data points. They can be data points in your own life, but they are not data points that should drive a brand strategy.

Yeah, these are not actually an objective reality. It's your reality. Right. I love that. So say that again. There's a difference between me search and research.

And research. So frequently we'll be in a creative review and someone's like, well, I just don't like that color. I'm like, great.

Completely off topic and besides the point.

Is it right for the brand? Is it accomplishing what we want it to do? Does it communicate energetic and fun or whatever it is we're trying to do? Then it's the right color.

And you could kind of take your color wheel and hit the road, Miss Pantone. Like, who are you? Come on.

Yeah, I'm sorry you didn't like your childhood bedroom color or your ex-boyfriend had a car that color. Whatever it is that's driving that decision, it does not matter in this context. But that's what we do. You plot the strength of the ideas against the triangulation of this and decide. This is where you like literally physically see cream rising to the top. And this is a framework that anybody can do. You just sit down and say, okay, I need a new product, right? I've got it. I've got to diversify my product offering, or I need social media content that does this. And start consider like it needs to fit these requirements. Here's what I want to accomplish. Here's what other people are doing in this space in terms of content. And start get this group of people, right, your sounding board or your creative, your creative friends together, and start riffing on ideas. And then plot them and start talking about the pros and cons of each one. This is a really great idea, it hits everything except it's too much money and I'll never be able to afford it. So that innovation won't get made. Made. Bad idea, right? And then you move on to the next one, and you kind of systematically get to a place where the best ideas are the ones that you can do, are, are there. And then you rally. Then— and the other thing that's really important, I think about this in a business setting as a lesson, is that when people are part of building an idea, they become champions of it, right? Nobody wants to hear after the fact, like, Noelle flew up to Boston, this is what they came up with, and here's what we're doing. They want to have a seat at that table and be part of the discussion.

Um, and that stakeholders in it, because then they will champion. And guess what people will look for success when they're invested in it.

So exactly, they were part of, of making the cake. So, um, so we go up there and we have this amazing session of brainstorming ideas on how we can totally change people's experience in our hotels, and then we plot them in terms of strength and have a really healthy discussion. Um, and those types of sessions, it's like, it's crack cocaine for me. It is like grad school creative development, and I literally feel parts of my brain lighting up. Or I don't know if you've ever had this moment or feeling where you're exposed to an idea and you can feel your brain kind of wrapping its fingers around it, but you're not quite sure you understand it. And you just kind of break it down piece by piece, and you take this theoretical thing and start saying like, so in theory this is it, but in real life would it look like this? And people are like, yeah, yeah, you're getting it. And suddenly you're using new parts of the brain, you're building new pathways, and there's nothing more exciting or engaging to me, I think, than doing that. So we got to do this for 12 hours that day and eat some awesome food.

All right, well, is there anything else that you— any kind of tips or anything else that you see in terms of where you think social media is heading? I mean, I know you're— you kind of have— I think what's cool is you have a little bit more step-back perspective than maybe some of the people I work with because you are working on the brand side. Obviously you keep your eye on social media because is an important part of it, but it's not like you're slogging in and out every day. You're worried about what's happening with the Instagram algorithm. What are you seeing from your macro trends of where social media is being used and maybe what it's being, yeah, not as useful for?

Can I not answer your question and answer the one you asked before that?

Yes, yes you can.

Can I cherry-pick? Only because this is like a little bit of maybe a pain point or a passion point, maybe both for me. So the way that we as a brand interact with with social media influencers is one, to build an engaged community. It's mostly an awareness play for our brands. Like the more people who know about us, then we're in their consideration set. They'll want to experience Wyndham Grand or Wyndham Hotels or Trip by Wyndham, all these brands that I work on. But we do do a lot of collaboration with influencers. And that, in the past year you may have seen us, we actually did a giveaway with Elle at Solly Baby. And we sent, Jenna's Kitchen. I don't know if you— I took Italian 101 with Jenna, and she and her family went to Disney. And then we've done lots of collaborations with influencers, and the ones that have been, um, the best for us, uh, and the ones that we felt like, um, we got the most bang for our buck and we'd work with them again are, one, professionalism. And I think that there is a range of kind of corporate know-how in this entrepreneurial and creative space, and that's okay. But timeliness and responsiveness and professionalism in your emails when you're interacting with a brand or a company is really important, and it reflects your own brand and what that partnership will be. The second is get an agent. Sometimes, like, that's— if you're, if you're not comfortable in that professional space have someone advocate and represent you that is. But I think the caveat there is like get the right agent, because for every good one there are 10 bad ones.

Yes.

That help you. The other thing that I think I'm seeing on a personal level is I, I watch kind of mega influencers or even micro influencers, um, is kind of a content mix and finding the right balance of organic, like real authentic you content with brand sponsored content. I think I've seen a couple people skew very heavily branded, and I understand that's your revenue stream and it's your livelihood, but that's not what people want to see, and that's not why they watch you.

So you've really got to do it in the right way and watch that blend.

You know, it should be— yeah, it's got to be really nuanced.

Yeah, because then it's, it's really easy to— as soon as you lose— though, it's so interesting, my husband and I talk about this all the time. I'm digressing again. Brittany, you're gonna kill me. This is gonna be the longest podcast.

Guess what?

You know what?

I got GarageBand, so don't worry, don't worry about it. You know, it's my show. Like I said, I've got the microphone.

Did you ever see this movie a couple years ago? It was really bad, called Beowulf, with Angelina Jolie?

Yes, I think I did, because wasn't there— I want to say there was, there's another hot guy in there that I know I liked, and so I watched it because of him.

Was Gerard Butler in there? No, may have been. I can't remember. It was so bad I blocked it from my memory. But what I do remember about this terrible movie starring Angelina Jolie called Beowulf.

Yeah.

Um, is that it was half animation and half real acting. It was this in weird space, and I don't know what the like cinematographic term for it is. Um, but it was not actors and it was not fully animated, right? And I feel like social straddles that world of it's not totally real life, right?

Yeah.

Moments are curated content. There's a lot of work and effort that goes into it, but it's not totally advertising.

Yeah.

And it's, it's a funny in-between to live in, and you have to strike that right balance. And I think that the second you shift too much toward sponsored content, you're going to alienate your base.

Yeah.

And so to be mindful of that. And then, um, to get to the question you actually asked me about trends in social media and what we see, it's actually micro-influencers.

Yeah.

Gone are the days— what's happened, especially at— I mean, I mean, if you think about what brands are spending for social content, it is— thank you, Mark Zuckerberg, for making an entire subcategory of industry. I mean, there's social media agencies, there's like media placement, there's content development. There's so much going on in this space that did not exist a decade ago. It's really, really incredible. And because of that, these mega influencers, like we wanted to work with, uh, an influencer that had over a million followers on something, and her fees were exorbitant.

Yeah.

Um, and she's great, but it just didn't make sense for us. Then you look at that, you know, 15 people who have 50,000 to 100,000 followers, or even 20,000 to 75,000 followers, and it's a highly engaged base. They're still really authentic in their content. They've got, um, like a really distinct point of view and look and feel. They're not quite sellouts because they're still kind of grassroots and doing doing their own thing, and you put 15 of those people together, and I've reached my, my impressions or the reach that I want to get, and the word of mouth. I also then get, um, like a really interesting diversity of, of exploration or representation of the experience. So we're throwing a rooftop party for an event launch in the city in a couple of weeks, and we have a bunch of influencers and bloggers coming to that. And the pictures that each of them take will be really, really different. And as a brand, that gives you the opportunity to kind of represent different aspects of it or more selection in what you like. It's more affordable. And so I think there, if you're not at $500,000, don't worry because your heyday is coming, right? And if you can find the right cohort of micro-influencers and almost represent yourself as a union, I think there's real opportunity. Across industries, find 5 people and be like, we've got a similar, similar audience, audience, our brand stands for the same thing, let's see who we can go out and catch as a package and approach a brand in that way.

Do a little wolf she-pack or something. Yeah, yeah.

Um, so I think that I, I mean, none of those are like super insightful. I guess maybe I'm not the person to talk to you about it.

No, but I think, I think it's super helpful because you are on that side, and so I think people who are who are working in the trenches every day and everyone else they talk to is a blogger, they really want to know what someone like you who actually is the one sometimes making the hiring decisions, what are you looking for and what are you like, you know?

Yeah, what I'm looking for, there's nothing more frustrating than someone reaching out and actually not knowing my brand. Like if you're reaching out and asking me to send you on a vacation and pay for your tickets and I'll do it, I'm happy to do that, that's my job. But know why you're approaching me, not just because you want a free vacation. Like, I see that your hotel stands for this, and this is something that matters to me because X, Y, and Z. Or maybe you read my post on this, it relates to this new thing that you're doing at Wyndham.

It's like, include a few links in the email, like, like this post I just did, that's something, you know, make it super easy for you. You're a busy woman.

Yeah, yeah. Well, it's not that I'm so busy, it's It just shows understanding and like there really is a strategic alignment, right? And there's a real desire there. And then know what you're gonna offer. So we have some things that we're really looking for. I think the mistake that, not the mistake, but maybe the misconception is like brands just want awareness. Like they just want you to talk about it so that their communities know. And that's true. I mean, I do want that. And so your followers matter, but more than that, I want content. Content, because either I can take the great pictures that you're taking and your perspective of my hotel and your experience, or I literally just paid our agency thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars to fly to hotels and capture social content so that I can keep my calendars running. And so know what your value proposition is. And if you don't have 200,000 or 500,000 followers, but you've got 50, but you're like a bangarang awesome photographer, and here's the content that you did on this trip, and you'd like to do the same for me and put a city guide together and post about it 3 times, like, put that in the email and I'll send you in a heartbeat.

Okay guys, you heard it here. So why don't you just do those things and send it to Noelle? And, and that's the thing, do it for anyone that you're interested in, but do your research and not me-search, as Noelle said. And, you know, be professional about it and really think about if you were in her shoes and trying to sell you know, at a customer experience at a nice hotel, what would you want to have and what do you need to see? And let's make that easy, make that connection happen. So, and remember that if you do get comp travel, you do need to disclose that. I will put that attorney asterisk. Oh yeah, oh yeah, you do.

So what do you have to do?

You have to say it needs to be in the post. It can either be natural language or it can be like hashtag, hashtag, ad, yeah, or sponsored. So, yeah.

Oh man.

I know, I know, I know. I come along and I burst the bubbles. I'm the fun wrecker. But the FTC, who's in charge of all fair communication practices and trade practices—

You mean the fun ruiners?

Yeah, I mean the fun ruiners. I'm sure that's what their acronym stands for. They say if there's any kind of, what do they call it, I'm going to say real, material connection connection between you as a brand or a company and the person that an audience would want to know about, that they need to disclose it. Meaning if the reason why they're talking about this spa is because they got—

I sent them there.

Because you sent them there for free, that they need to say that.

Interesting. Well, I appreciate that transparency. Thank you, FTC. I'll be sure to keep that in mind in all my future activations.

I'll be sure to keep you on the line for that.

But yeah, it's a brave new world out there, and I like that you said that micro-influencers are in their day has kind of come.

You matter.

You matter, and you could do a lot to hustle. And guess what? People like that you're kind of still a smaller fish because they feel like they can relate to you. And like, this girl knows what it's like to travel with kids and want to have a nice place or go on, you know, a vacation with her husband. And like, you know what I mean? Like, they can really connect. Yeah.

So awesome. Well, it was so fun talking to you. It's been too long.

I know, likewise. So, all right, we'll let Noelle go. And thank you so much, and appreciate— if people want to find out more of what you're doing and just follow and stalk you like I do, where can they find you?

On Instagram @noelnicholai, but I'm a nobody and I think I might be private. I don't know, you could try. I waffle. Some days I'm super protective of my kids and some days I'm like, sure, take a look at them.

And if you're lucky enough, you might even get to see some of her renovation pictures, which are gorgeous.

Yes, well, I don't know about gorgeous, but I'm actually really excited about that project. It was kind of a side project. That could be another podcast on how I conned companies into Sponsoring my renovation. So now I've got to put some posts out on it and take some pictures. But it turned out really fun.

So you just decided to be like a house remodel blogger? Like, yeah. One day.

Basically.

Yeah. You're amazing. You're amazing. No, you're nice.

Okay.

All right. Well, we'll say goodbye to Noelle. So thanks so much.

Thanks so much, Brittany. Good night, everybody.

Okay.

Wow.

What an episode. I know it's a bit longer than normal, but honestly, I won't apologize for a minute of that. Because it was so good and I'm so glad that Noelle was able to jump on and share some of her insight because honestly, this was basically a consulting session that you got to sit in except Noelle doesn't do consulting. She works for a high-value brand actually, a company that has multiple brands. But if she did, we would pay top dollar to hear this kind of advice. So I hope you were able to jot down some, some notes and some thoughts, things that impacted you. Um, even though it may seem like her— the way that she approaches it from a larger corporate brand architecture, um, I think there was a lot of lessons here about how you can scale her strategies for a small brand, even a brand where it's maybe just you right now, or maybe you have a small team that's helping you out. Um, and I think there's a, there's a lot of ways to incorporate the lessons that she's talking about, um, particularly with how to do kind of that creative strategy brainstorming session, you know, how to turn things from a brain dump and to utilize the resources that you have, even if it's just your friends who are creatives and maybe some like-minded folks who might be in different industries and have different products or services, but be in a place where you can bounce ideas off each other. So I think that's always good to hear that advice, and, you know, it's— we, we can't hear it too, too often, really. So, um, if you want more information on today's episode, please go to the show notes page. You'll find that at BrittanyRettell.com/9, number 9, because this is episode 9. Um, you'll find some information and links about what we talked to today. Um, you'll also find, uh, information and a download if you're interested in getting some of the tips that we had. Um, if you sign up for that download, you'll get added to my email list, which is a great resource. I send that out every week and it just has tips and tricks and things for your business. I make it short, sweet, funny, um, cause I don't have time to waste and neither do you. If you leave a review for me, I would really appreciate it. I read every single one of those and they mean a lot to me. I'm a young buck podcast and they're really important for people to be able to see what I'm doing. Um, my plan is to keep all this content free and putting out here for your benefit. Fit. So this is— this would be a great way to pay me back if you received anything out of this episode or any of my other ones, is to leave me a review. I'd really appreciate it. Thanks so much, and we'll catch you on the flip side.