How to Run a Successful Art Business with Artist Jenie Gao - 55

Creative Counsel 55: How to Run a Successful Art Business with Artist Jenny Gao. Welcome to Creative Counsel with Brittany Ratel. I'm your host Brittany, an attorney for creatives who believes in solid contracts and cute office supplies, and who wants to empower you to be a more confident business owner. Whether you're a creative, influencer, maker, artist, shop owner, or content creator, you are not just a blank. You are a real bona fide business owner. So let's help you own your business and get you legally legit with Brit. Thank you so much for being here. I am so excited to share our episode today. I have on here Jenny Gao, and Jenny Gao is a full-time artist, creative director, and entrepreneur. She specializes in large-scale projects, printmaking, murals, and public art installations. She strives to make the work that becomes the cultural cornerstones and community landmarks wherever it is. Prior to founding her business, Jenny was involved in for-profit and non-profit businesses in the arts, education, and in lean manufacturing. So through her interdisciplinary work, she advocates for creativity as a tool that builds connection, resilience, and community citizenry. So obviously we are very excited to have her on here to address all things creative entrepreneurship. So welcome Jenny to Longwood.

Yeah, thanks for having me.

Awesome. So, and I met Jenny at Alt Summit this year, and it was really great. We just, we happened to get talking in the lobby about stuff, and I thought, you know, within minutes of meeting her, I thought, well, I need to have her on the podcast. This definitely needs to happen. I'm especially interested to hear about the space that you're in because I think especially the role of public art and large-scale art projects are a little different, you know, from people who might be, who work in smaller mediums. But I think it's a really interesting discussion. And so why don't you start out and kind of tell us a little bit about how you got to be doing what you do today, your kind of creative origin story.

Yeah, definitely. So you already gave a very good background on, on the experience that I had leading into this. And, um, and, you know, I, uh, I've been an artist for a long time. I was definitely one of those kids who wanted to become an artist, and I really just didn't, uh, have a lot of examples of how that could be in the cards for me based on my family background, socioeconomic background, and where I was growing up in semi-rural Kansas. But the arts were always the thing that felt most aligned with who I was, and so by the time I got to school, I did choose to study the arts. And in each of the industries that I worked in following my studies, I repeatedly saw what I've come to understand as the creative gap, the creativity gap. And I worked in Milwaukee Public Schools, and Milwaukee Public Schools is known to be one of the ones with the have the worst achievement gaps and the highest segregation. And right there, lack of creative education and creative opportunities in those schools is tied with the achievement gaps that we see and the inequity that we see. I worked in manufacturing and the same thing there. You know, here in manufacturing we have one of the most revolutionary things in the history of humankind and us being able to make things on a mass scale. That's incredible. What I've seen happen in the manufacturing industry and what's killed off a lot of it in the US is a lack of investment in the people and in creativity and autonomy to continue building what should be really revolutionary cornerstones of who we are and what we make as a country. So those were a lot of the things that fed into why I ultimately decided 4.5 years ago to quit my corporate job and pursue building a business in the arts. And to take the skill sets that I'd gained from working in education, from working in corporate, to build something that would actually be viable. And as far as what guided me into the areas of work that I wanted to do, so I knew that education was important to me, and I knew that creating better access to the arts was important. These needed to be a part of the foundation of the business that I built. And my background was in printmaking, so it remains a big part of what I do. And it set this tone that the work I make tends to be very democratic. So with printmaking, it's about sharing a mass message. You can make a lot of the same image, and you can produce this information and share it with a lot of people. And with public art and with murals, these are works that are in shared spaces. By virtue of investing in art in spaces that people share, we are encouraging the people in those environments to become stewards of their surroundings. So that's really what led me into that work, that ideology.

Yeah, I love how you've seen, and now being this, and a lot of obviously comes in Monday morning quarterbacking and be able to reflect backwards, but you've seen this common thread of where where you, you had talents, where you had passions, and where, like you said, you kept on seeing a creative gap, even though it was across different industries, it was across different institutions that you found yourself working with. Um, but I love your reflection on how there is so much to be said for giving individual and personal autonomy to be able to problem solve, to be able to apply creative creativity to whatever their problems are. And that's not necessarily— that means that everyone needs to take up acrylic painting, you know. That does mean that some people just want to have a more creative experience with the way that they're performing their job function with whatever they're creating and producing. So yeah, that's awesome. I love, um, tell me about, I mean, what was it like when you decided to make that leap? I mean, where, um, you know, did you, did you have a family? Uh, what did your family think? What did your friends think? Did you have a nest egg built up? I mean, walk me through because that's, um, that, that, that's a big leap for a lot of people. Yeah.

It is terrifying. I, you know, I knew that it was coming. And even so, I had an existential crisis the week following. And, you know, like, and what I recommend to everybody, one, like, yes, I did have a runway saved up. So I'd been planning for some time. And the reality of it is, one way or another, you're going to need to fund whatever your big leap is. And that's something that scares a lot of people. But it comes down to having spreadsheets, having a budget. And knowing what your lifestyle costs and what you can go without in order to be able to invest the time and the resources into building what you want to build. Because otherwise, you, uh, you're just going to end up applying for another job right away if you don't give yourself that time and space, or you're going to sign up for a project that really isn't suited for you, which also isn't the point. So, so yes, I, I had I planned in advance. I had saved up enough for me to be able to do this. And then I spent a week just really just writing and focusing on what the goals of this endeavor really were, you know, like, and I knew what a lot of that was and how it felt just in leading up to quitting my job. But just to actually take like one week to do nothing else but say this right here is what I am here to do, and, and what some of my goals were in that upcoming year. About—

I love that. Yeah, I love that. This is what I am here to do. And making— purposely putting that white space in your life, in your calendar right there, to know that you, you needed that to have that really big picture planning. Yeah. Okay, so that's awesome. So you did— that was your, your step 2. You funded it and you were realistic about what your lifestyle was. You made friends with your numbers. You weren't afraid to dig into those and really confront that. Then you knew what you wanted to do and probably just as importantly what you didn't want to do or what you weren't interested in. Like you talked about, you had a vision of what projects were not going to be a good fit for you.

Yeah, and that can be harder, especially at the beginning where you don't necessarily know yet. People are going to ask you about all different types of things along the way, and sometimes you get it wrong. Sometimes you sign up for a gig that isn't suited to you. You'd ask also just about like general support. And I'd say that among my friend group, people were supportive. There were definitely some who like came out later and said that they weren't sure it was gonna work. But you know, like, and so you're like, okay, well, you didn't tell me that at the time, so thank you for not telling me that at the time. And, and, you know, like, there are definitely the, the naysayers as well. And, and I want to say to folks to be prepared for that. My Family, even now, I've been doing this 4.5 years, there are still some that are like, "What on earth are you doing?" And I've got interns and people working with me and contractors. But because for a lot of people, starting a business, giving up a secure job seems like the antithesis of what you should want to do. And for myself, I'm a first-generation American, and for my family, like basically what I got as a full-time corporate job with the salary and the benefits. This was something that was almost impossible for my parents to ever even like imagine being able to get, right? So to leave that behind for the unpredictability of starting a business, that was tough and it was a tough sell. And fortunately, you know, once you're an adult, like nobody can really stop you. But just be prepared that not everyone in your close network will be supportive or understand. Even if they are supportive, they may not understand, and that's okay. That's absolutely okay.

Yeah. I've heard the advice said that for people who they wouldn't be able to— basically, they wouldn't be able to have the right or to support you if things go great, you shouldn't be listening to that much. If they're they're worried about things going wrong, you know, like if people are that outside of your innermost, whether they really don't have a stake in the game, then it doesn't really matter that much, you know, their, their opinion. So, um, yeah, yeah, no, I think that that's, that's really smart that what you said is just to be prepared for that and, and probably recognize that it comes from a place of love. And as you said, especially being, you know, first-generation American and the American dream is having that stability and having that growth and being able to have that and then to walk away. Um, That reminds me a lot of what Nicole Walters, um, she talks about and has a podcast because it's the same thing. Her parents were from, um, African immigrants and they were like, what, you know, daughter, you had the corporate job, like why? We don't understand why you'd walk away from that. But, um, for her, you know, it worked out. For a lot of people it works out, but they, they have to know themselves and know that there's, um, yeah, there is a faith leap there for sure.

Absolutely.

Yeah. So Okay, so I love that. So you, you made the leap, you got going. What, um, how did you get— start getting your first work, and what did that look like? And how did you kind of develop your, um, your style and know where you wanted to work and how? Um, kind of walk us through that process.

Yeah, for sure. So, um, so the big thing was just showing up to a lot of things, right? And, uh, and I'm, I'm a I'm a big believer in the saying that showing up is half the battle, and sometimes it's more than half the battle. And just by virtue of no longer having my full-time job, which was much more than 40 hours a week, I had the time to go to these networking events, to go and meet with people, to sign up for different groups, and to see where I fit in the space and what I had to offer that wasn't there. And so yeah, I just went to a ton of events, like both art events, art-related events, and also non-art events, entrepreneurial events, startup events, events that I don't think a lot of artists think about going to. And this is something that the arts tends to be very insular and even a bit inbred. And I encourage all artists, look, there are so many other types of meetups that you can go to or types of workshops that you can go to that are outside of the arts and go to them, right? Like accountants, like the accountants don't only have other accountants as their clients. Artists cannot only have other arts professionals as their clients.

Yes. Oh, that's so smart. Yeah, you got it. You got to widen the pool and know that there's a lot of, there's strength and perspective and lessons being that you can share across. And just because, you know, you, you have art clients and someone else has real estate clients doesn't mean that there's a lot that's similar about your business. Businesses, honestly.

Yeah, and along the way, there's going to be a little bit of trial and error with it. You're going to figure out which things are worth continuing to go to and which ones aren't. And that's going to depend on the type of work that you do and what spaces they fit in. So for me, I do public works, I do large-scale works. It's going to make sense for me to go somewhere where there are people who are representing larger industries. It makes sense for me to network with architects. So these are some of the things that you can keep in mind as But like at the beginning, you just like things that sound interesting, things that sound like they're aligned with kind of like how you think and what you care about, like, yeah, go to them, go and just start meeting people and you're going to figure out what is and is not worth your time pretty quickly.

Yeah, I think that's, that's really smart. So yeah, so, so get out there guys, you know, don't, don't be afraid to hit the pavement and hit the meetings and to have, you know, have your little cup of coffee and your, you know, your Costco muffin at the back of the room, whatever you need to do and walk around and chat with people, open up your mouth.

Yeah. And reach out directly to people, you know, like send an email, call someone. And this is something like, you know, I think like it's so easy to just like sit at our desks and to plan indefinitely or to think that like people aren't open to it. But the reality is most people are pretty open to a meeting to connect with somebody. And whether it's like somebody like a colleague of yours and you're like, hey, like how do you go through this? Or somebody who may be a potential mentor And I think it's because all of us have recognized that somewhere along the way other people did that for us, and so we all pay it forward. And I know that too, that people now reach out to me and I'm like, "Yeah, sure, here's what I do in this scenario." And we're all a part of that ecosystem. But really participating. I can't stress participating enough. As far as art and my style goes, you'd also asked about that. Been an artist for a while, so like I didn't really need to like develop something from scratch when I quit my job. I just needed to get myself that time to be able to focus on it because I realized that if I continued growing in my corporate career, I wasn't going to be an active artist anymore. But, you know, like I studied the arts, I'd already been actively showing for a number of years, and so I knew that space It was more a question like, how do I make this viable for me? And in the time that I quit, like, I was able to give myself that time to focus and to build and refresh my portfolio, right? So, like, one of my first goals was that I wanted to do a couple of art residencies. And I applied for art residencies and I got two in Buenos Aires and in Chile. And so I went abroad, I got out of my physical space and I just gave myself a couple of months just to make artwork and to let my mind be distant from all of the noise of my daily life. And that kind of, that helped me to like recalibrate and reset and know like, okay, like this is what I'm doing. And I had a fresh body of work when I came back. I had a show lined up before I went on the residencies as well. And I came back with all of this new work ready for a solo show.

Awesome. Yeah. Oh, I love— and I love the thought of getting abroad too. Every time I've traveled, it's— I've always been grateful because it's not just about, you know, what you see and the foods you eat, but, you know, just taking in the— widening your horizons and, you know, just looking at things in a fresh new perspective. Um, yeah, can do wonders for the soul and obviously do wonders for your creativity and that creative spirit.

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, definitely. So How would you answer, you know, because I'm interested that you knew because it was art, was still something that you were continuing to do on the side in corporate. How would you answer, you know, the claim or the warning from some that would say, hey, the quickest way to kill your passion project is to be making money from it or to have to monetize it. How were you approaching or how have you tried to keep that love and that passion alive now that this is your full-time, you know, what you do to provide for yourself?

Yeah, absolutely. So I'd say that boundaries are important. Boundaries and setting expectations. Because if somebody feels like making money from their craft is killing their love of that craft, to me that indicates that they haven't set proper boundaries for themselves and what they create and for what they are willing to do for a client. So it's the kind of thing like a client may come to me and say, "Well, we really want our logo painted big on this wall." I'm like, "Well, that's not really what I do." There are sign painters, there are I'm not a calligrapher. There are other people who do that and I can refer you to them. That's not what I do, right? So like my portfolio is online and it's up to date. Like people can see my style. They know that when they come to me, they're not buying an Andy Warhol. They're not buying something from like another artist. They're buying something from Jenny Gao and they're going to get a Jenny Gao. And that right there is like, that determines already upfront who should even be asking. To work with me, right? And, you know, like, for me, like, being able to do client work expands what I'm able to do as an artist. It does not kill the creative spirit or the motivation behind it. Like, certainly there are times I get busy, but that's just for the virtue of being busy. That's not an issue with the work itself. And I, like, I have parameters that I set with clients as far as what I do and what I don't do. I always start client meetings with a discussion about what it is that they value, what are their values, what are their beliefs, what do they want represented in a mural, for instance, in a custom piece. I keep things in the abstract and then I use that to feed the designs that I then create, right? So that's— so it's still dictated by the parameters of my process, my creative process. And then just as far as like any work that I develop to sell, like if I sell prints or something, if I sell originals of things that I produce in the studio, I have a percentage of my time that I dedicate to the studio outside of client projects. It's the same as a company, a big company having an R&D department, right? So I can protect that time. And the thing is, if I were working 40 or more hours a week, at a day job. I couldn't do that, right? I couldn't do that. And I certainly couldn't be tackling projects on the scale that I am if I were tied with a full-time job for somebody else. So I think it's just a question of looking at what we truly think the limits are, because frankly, somebody paying me to make art is not the limitation, right? That's not what's killing my, my creativity. That is an investment in me being able to do this full-time.

I really like that. I really like you, yeah, flipping the script on that. So, and I think that's a really, um, as you said, you know, go put the onus on the artist, on the creative, to be thoughtful about boundaries, to be thoughtful about your process, and, you know, to be doing things like tracking your time. It doesn't do any good to be setting out and blocking your calendar if you're not being thoughtful and careful about, well, how much time does it really take me to do a project like this? How much time do I need to set apart for getting new clients and new work? How much needs to be developing processes or, you know, new learning, new techniques, or part of the education, or whatever else you've decided needs to go into honing your craft and making sure that you have that wellspring of creativity coming?

Yeah.

Oh, okay. So, um, so I mean, as this business is now going and you've been— had tremendous success as we've, you know, listed out in your bio and been able to do different projects. What are some of the challenges that have come with especially dealing with projects on a large scale like this? You know, you are, as you mentioned, sometimes you're dealing with larger bureaucratic institutions, government, big corporations. What's tough about that?

Well, the tough thing can be managing the timelines. As the projects get bigger, the timelines get longer. If there are multiple levels of decision makers, that can be really tricky to navigate. And Essentially, that's like what you can manage on your side as an artist is knowing like, hey, like this is, this is how many hours of work that I need, or this is the cash flow that I need to have. And that like with your client as well, like, okay, you want to have a project that's going to take 6 months or a year and not even necessarily 6 months, 12 months, like solid dedicated work, but just by virtue of like the back and forth, the decision makers who needs to approve what. Well, then in that case, payment installments need to happen in such a way that I can't be waiting until the end of the year to get all or even like half of the payment, right? A longer project, it's going to need to be broken up into more pay installments so that I'm getting regular pay throughout that time period.

And I'm sure your contracts reflect that.

I'm sure they do. Yeah. Yeah. And so it's just, it's just being conscious. So I'd say that's like the biggest challenge and, and like in And as you grow also, like different projects have different needs and learning what things are standard to your framework, right? Like this is the framework of what a project needs and having enough flexibility for customization. That's the biggest challenge, right? Cause you need flexibility and you also need to own your process.

From start to finish. Yeah.

Yeah. So yeah. And And then I'd say like in addition to that, just like some with projects that are going to take longer, sometimes the negotiations up front take longer. And I think that this is a challenge for everybody who's in business. It's how much time do you invest in that conversation up front before you say, hey, you know what, like that's, this is kind of the limit of what I'm willing to do. We need a decision or else this project isn't going to happen.

Yeah. In your process, do you typically, um, you know, give a proposal or scope out things and then, and then give a number? Is that kind of your, your general workflow in terms of kind of back and forth of what a project is going to look like? Yeah.

Yeah. So, so I generally, what, um, what I start with up front is like, okay, like I can give you a scope of the project. This is how much it'll cost and, um, and this is how long it'll take. And I don't do any design before we have the contract. And there are definitely some people who have not hired me for that reason. But for me, I'm like, look, I'm not doing free spec work. You know, and like, because, you know, like I've had somebody approach me and this was like, of all types of businesses, this is a venture capital firm. Like they have money. And they came to me and asked me like what what the work would cost. I gave him my quote and they're like, okay, well, like, can you like come back and meet with me and my business partner with some designs? And I'm like, I don't do that until after the agreement. And he said, okay, well, I just want to let you know that we're meeting with 20 artists. I'm like, that's great because none of us should be doing free spec work. I'm not like, if you're meeting with like 19 other people, then no, I'm not going to do this for free. I'm not going to do this until I have an agreement. They didn't hire me, but you know what? Fine. Like, that's like, frankly, it's their loss. And like, and like, they try to like make it sound like, oh, you could lose this work to like one of these other 19 people. No, they're just, they're just trying to take advantage of you.

Yeah, yeah. And, and, you know, it's a shame, but like, those 19 artists should know better. And if they were really paying attention to their bottom lines and their processes, then they shouldn't be doing that either. And, you know, there's, there's a time for, uh, yeah, forgiving and sharing with people and, and trying to get good work, and there's a time to respect yourself and your craft and your industry.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And you know, like what I say to folks is like, you already have a portfolio. Like, develop what you need for your portfolio, but otherwise, like, you don't need to creep beyond that. People can look at what you've done before and decide whether or not to hire you, and they're really just trying to take advantage of someone who doesn't have— who doesn't know yet.

Yeah. And if they really don't know after looking at portfolio, then it sounds like maybe they even don't know what they want, or they're not good at judging that, in which case they're not a good client, run and let them go.

Yeah, run. Yeah, basically.

Yeah, because there's going to be red flags all over there about, yeah, not who not to take away from. So, um, how have you handled, um, I know we, we talked a little about this briefly, um, because having art in the public space can have some interesting, um, kind of legal things that touch on it in terms of rights and licensing. If people can get, you know, photography on that, because it is going to be visible, it's going to be out. It's not a work that's going to go on someone's wall in their house and not going to be visible to the public. What has been the way that you kind of approach that, that those kind of decisions and choices?

Yeah, so with any type of work, it's important to study up on, on what the existing laws are. Like, copyright law is federal, right? Like, it's not different state by state. And you can look it all up. Like, oh my god, we live in this amazing time where you can look up anything within seconds. And I took the time to study study what the existing laws are and then to understand how contracts within my own region function within that. Does something seem fair? Is something actually aligned with what the federal laws are? If somebody, for instance, like a city contract, city contracts tend to be pretty convoluted. And if, for instance, a municipality says, hey, you have to waive your VARA rights, you're a visual artist, Rights Act protections, the answer is no. The short answer is no. There's no reason why you should ever have to waive your rights to get something accomplished. If somebody's trying to get you to waive your rights, there's something else that they are trying to protect, but there's another way to do it without you giving up your legal rights. And so for me, it's just, it's been getting educated on that, understanding like how things exist in the public domain. There are federal laws that protect public art, and there are laws that go into place regarding deaccession as well, like what happens with the deinstallation of that piece. And the way I write my contracts are to protect and to reinforce the rights that I know exist, right? So that, like, I know that I own the copyright of anything that I create. Somebody else may own the physical artwork, but I own the copyright to it. If somebody now, if like a client is commissioning a major piece, like my concession on that is that, hey, you know what? Like, I understand that this place might not always be here. This business might not always be here, right? So they should have the right to deaccession that physical piece if they cannot stay there, right? And frankly, different people take different stances on this. I personally don't want to limit somebody based on that. I don't want to scare people about what they could potentially be liable for by purchasing public art. I think that their rights should be protected in that situation as well. And that is our goal, right? So just putting in the protections of like, I own the copyright, I own the IP of this, And having things built in, knowing that things are properly documented once, once they're up as well. I have good documentation on this piece in the event that someday in the future it no longer exists. It does still exist in a digital or reproduced form. And just going through those expectations with the client as well so they know.

Right.

Anything that is public-facing, there's just— there's there are things to take into consideration as far as who's going to see this piece. And the US, I would say, is in a very nascent stage with public art. So the things that we're willing to put in the public domain can be made controversial much more easily than places that are more used to public art. So, I mean, like Maya Lin's Vietnam War Memorial is one of the most famous and critical pieces in Washington, D.C. today, highly controversial. It was extremely controversial. And that's largely why we have a lot of debates around what parameters we set in there as far as like, hey, like if something's unpopular, can it be deaccessioned, right? And have protections in place for artists. That's why those exist because the popularity or unpopularity of something in that moment does not reflect what the role of this piece is going to be in the long term. And so in terms of just like how I navigate that space, there's always stuff that you're not gonna know. You're never gonna make 100% of people happy with something that's in a space, I do try to be conscientious of the fact that unlike in a gallery setting, a work in the public space has audience members who didn't realize they're about to be an audience. So that's just something that I try to be conscientious of. And if, like, so for instance, right now I'm working with a municipality on a large public-facing piece And that meant that we built in a long community engagement process prior to starting the design. So you're getting people's voices in this. And of course you can't represent absolutely everything somebody said. Like, oh, like, I want a bird in that corner, you know, like, no.

Put a bird on it. Like, no, we're not. This is not Portlandia. We're not putting a bird on.

Yeah, sometimes you might, you know, there's nothing wrong with birds, but like, but it's just basically that you don't want people like dictating like every single thing that—

or else, yeah, it becomes a watered-down and it's nothing. Yeah.

So Exactly. It does still need to have a voice, but that the community feels like that they had that chance to share their stories and their input on why their community is special to them. And that's really how I try to design the questions as well, to keep people in the abstract so they're not having concrete expectations of what this is going to be, but they feel like they're heard and they have been involved in that process.

Oh, I think that dance there is really nice in terms of Yeah, keeping things conceptual and abstract and getting like the, you know, the storytelling, the emotion and the feelings of it, and not getting too far too fast into concrete terms, into the weeds of what structurally, visually, you know, color scheme, pantone, whatever, you know, what it's actually going to look like. Yeah, so definitely. So I really like that, and I, and I love your discussion, um, of just being aware and how much time that you took to be thoughtful and aware of the legal rights, knowing that I'm sure that plays a role into what your pricing looks like. And if someone is looking for more expansive rights, and, you know, as you mentioned, that you, you keep the copyrights to that, but there's probably times that have come up in your work where if you do, you know, a mural for a business that's inside, but it becomes a focal feature of their business, then they might want to sell merchandise or prints. Is there something that, you know, there becomes a larger role for that? And then there needs to be a proper discussion of, okay, well, what does that look like if they're going to be using that art for other things? Besides just being on the wall.

So yeah, absolutely. And, and the way that, that I handle that is, is through licensing agreements. Yeah. And, uh, and again, like, like there, there are very few, few cases where, where you should be just selling this thing outright because that means that like that it is no longer yours.

Yeah, pure like work-for-hire situation, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And, um, and so in, in a case where like I'm a business commissions a mural, then beyond that physical mural, there are opportunities to license that image and to reprint it, say, on t-shirts, say, as a label on a tote bag for a library. Yeah, so lots of different scenarios. And that unless we're looking at quite a large amount of work resulting because of that, most cases a non-exclusive licensing agreement is what's going to work, right? Because that gives you the right to continue using that image in other settings as well, and you want to make sure that you can, right? Like, not just for commercial reasons, but you want to be able to send your images to art publications. You want to— like, if somebody like from the newspaper wants to interview you, you want to be able to send them this image. You want to be able to use it in your portfolio just to pitch to other clients. So you need to have a lot of flexibility as an artist to use your image for reasons both commercial and non-commercial. And with a client, like, their goal is to promote and to sell their products, and having something like a non-exclusive licensing agreement covers that need for like the vast majority of people who are going to ask and scenarios.

Yeah, exactly. So which is why you guys need to have those agreements and get, get yourself one of those agreements. Get a real attorney to draft one for you if you don't have one, and, or to review one for you, whatever you need to do. Um, and just, yeah, make sure that you're, you're pricing yourself and you're being strategic about what are you— what's in your bundle of sticks, and now what are you giving away? And that the whatever you've agreed on for the project is in alignment with your vision and your, um, and those numbers for that project.

Yeah, yeah. So, um, I—

oh, that's, that's awesome and such, such important advice. Um, okay, I want to switch gears a little bit and talk about— because you've, you've done so much great speaking and thought work on kind of creativity and the creativity gap. Um, I was listening to something else that you talked about, and even as creativity as a survival tool, which I thought was a really interesting take. I think it was in your, um, it was one of your exhibits in Madison, you know, the different prints that you did. Anyway, that you kind of talked about that. You know, what does that mean to you in terms of creativity being a survival tool? Can you explain that a little bit to us, that idea?

Yeah, absolutely. It's— the basic idea is that creativity is necessary to us even being here, right? So if we look at this planet, we have an estimated 8.7 million different animal species. And that's not even getting into other kingdoms, like the plant kingdom. But, you know, we couldn't be here if we didn't create. So just like life itself is a creation, and every species manifests itself through different forms of creation. And we also know that we as human beings are not unique in some of the ways that we create. Birds build nests, ants build anthills and labyrinths underground, right? Like termites are architects, right? So we have all these different examples of animals that build things. And beyond just building, the ways in which animals use visuals or other sensory stimuli, right? So you think about peacock feathers, You think about patterns in leaves.

Bees do their little bee dance to get honey.

Yes, bees do their bee dance, exactly. So all these different examples of visuals and performances and creation that animals participate in, and out of all of these different animals exercising creativity as a necessary part of how they survive and pass on their genes. We as human beings are the only ones who actively record our information and the information of others. We are the only ones who actively create art. And that's pretty remarkable. So a lot of times we're sold this myth that art is like nice but not necessary. It's an extra. Right? Like it's decoration. Like maybe people buy a painting because it matches their couch. But I would argue that it's actually fundamental to who we are and what makes us human.

Yeah, on like a basic, basic level.

On a basic level, yeah. We're the only ones that create and record information and share it and that realize that it has value completely detached from its functional purpose.

Yeah, in itself. So yeah, and I think that's really— and that's important. And, you know, we're probably— for, for my listeners here, we're probably, you know, we're preaching a little bit to the choir because they understand, you know, they're— they are creative entrepreneurs. They consider themselves in some respect, um, but from perhaps people who are still working, you know, or this is, this is a side hustle or this is a passion project and they're wondering, you know, how— if that's true, if it's so important, you know, how do I make other people appreciate that? You know, how do I, um, get someone to understand why they should pay, paying a print for my beautiful hand lettering, or why, you know, really good photography is important and worth, you know, to pay someone, someone good What are the ways in which we can engage and try to share that vision with maybe other people who think that art is still, yeah, is relegated to that kind of second class once you've taken care of all the real things in your life? Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of it, like there are always going to be the short-term and long-term actions that we take, right? On the short-term, we have to understand that that there are always going to be early adopters, there are always going to be laggards and disbelievers, and we have to focus on who the people are who get it, and that's what sustains us on a day-to-day basis. In the long term, we make our arguments and we may not convince everybody, but along the way we'll see mindset shifts. And this is what we're really good at as artists, is that we can express ideas in a visual way that is accessible to lots of people. People. And we can really transform minds. We can plant ideas that other people don't think of and connect things that other people didn't realize were related. So I think it's just like, it also requires like a continual evaluation of the type of work that we do because I've definitely seen like some artists who get really frustrated that nobody's buying their stuff, but they haven't really changed what they make or changed how they told the story. And at the end of the day, yeah, we all know bad artists who are successful, but by and large, if you focus on your craft and you keep honing your craft and adjusting testing it and reevaluating it, you will see the rewards that come from it, right? Like people, like if for instance like your craft isn't where it needs to be, like get it where it needs to be. Like we don't want to buy haphazard products, so we shouldn't be trying to sell everything that comes out of our studio. Not everything we make is good, right? Not everything should make it onto the shelf just because we made it. And, and I think that's worth remembering.

Yeah. So, um, and, you know, do you think that it's harder or easier now that, um, that because we have internet, we have—

we have—

because we have the social— we have social media to find and, and find places to get, you know, critical response and to actually get critiques of our work and to be in a process where we can be really honest about our craft and about our process and whether things need to change or hone and whether they're hitting the mark or whether, whether they're not.

I'd say critique is honestly probably the hardest thing to get. Yeah. You know, we live in an incredible time where we are connected, um, hyper-connected, and we can access a much wider audience beyond our immediate community. And with that said, like, social media, social media is in many ways a popularity contest and it's hard to encourage truly critical conversations on there. And the ones that are, it's hard to keep them positive and constructive, right? Like you look at any time that you've made a political post, right? Like how often are the conversations that follow that good, right? And if these people were to have a conversation in person, it would probably be very different. See some of the nastiness that comes out quite as easily. And just as far as art goes, it's, you know, on social media largely, online, it's promotion. And what's harder with this as well is that journalism, journalism in this country is in a pretty tough place for many reasons. Journalists are under fire all the time. We also have increasingly targeted ads and targeted audiences. And so at this time when we're hyperconnected, we're also very fragmented in who has what information and who believes what based on what they've already read. And arts journalism specifically, there are not— every day there are fewer and fewer people who are dedicated to arts journalism. And the reality is, journalists, journals, papers, and the general media are not hiring arts journalists. So most of the journalism that's written about artists tends to be promotional. So there really isn't an ecosystem that encourages critique. It's like it ends up going one way or the other. It's either highly promotional or just like it sucks and it's like an internet like—

Just troll. Yeah, just like, oh, I don't like it. Okay, well, that doesn't have anything to say whether, you know, was the piece doing what it was meant— is it serving what it was meant to serve, you know?

Yeah, which is a shame because art is so well positioned to be a dialogue catalyst, right? And we just don't have very good channels. For that. Online discussions just tend not to be good for that. I'd say for anyone who's looking for genuine critique of their work, find people in your city, in your community, and organize your own critique group. And honestly, that's what I do. I meet with other artists that live in my community and we take time to review each other's work. We talk through what is working, what's not working, different materials and just everything from like the technical side of it to the conceptual side. And that's, that's where you can get really meaningful critique on your work.

Yeah, I think that's really smart. So is there anything else that you've, you know, needed to or thought that it was been helpful as you've grown your business and now shifted to find mentorship? You know, what what things have you kind of been able to build in, or have you found you needed to, especially on the business, you know, backend that people might not see? They see you and they hire, you know, Jenny Gao, and she's the, you know, one who does the mural. But what's kind of happening behind the scenes to make this business work for you?

Yeah, so like, I definitely have mentors, and I have mentors in, in all different settings. Some of them have been long-term mentors, and, um, and other ones that, that I that I found since starting my business. And I think it's important to have people who come from different backgrounds and different areas of expertise because they'll give you different insights and they'll inform a practice that is much more multidimensional for you. Because the reality is that like no single one of us is an exact template for how it should be done. And part of why any one of us would also venture out to do what we do is because there was something missing in the market. There was something missing and we're like, gosh, I really wish someone were doing this. So we're trying to do something that we feel has not yet been fulfilled. So, so some of that is going to be uncharted territory, not all of it. But some of it will be. So we need that space to, to be able to take in different perspectives and form something new that we're building, and then also have room to add our own piece to. It's like, you know what, I don't actually agree with this particular person who gave me advice. Like, I agree with them 80%, but here's the 20% that I think could be different. So yeah, like, I have mentors who are artists. I also have mentors who are business people. And part of that too is that frankly, there are not a lot of full-time artists. There just aren't. And it's good for us to be talking to people across industries because different industries often have shared challenges.

It can give you, you know, some fresh perspective and fresh solutions that you perhaps have not seen. And like you said, you know, the art community can be rather insular to its own peril, you know, in terms of getting good art and being able to sustain that process.

Yeah, and I think you can limit our ambition because the thing is, if you're only talking to other active professional artists who are in their own right successful, but you're only talking to each other and the person in your network is really making it, is taking on $1,500 projects, then as far as you know, that's what the market is can bear. But if you go and you talk to somebody in another industry sector and you're like, whoa, oh my gosh, you're managing $20,000 projects, you're managing $50,000 projects, and just the scale at which a lot of other businesses are operating that most art businesses don't, it just, it changes the way you look at numbers and what the arts can really do. Mm-hmm.

Yes, yes, for sure. Um, and then you mentioned you, you do have now, you know, you have some helpers in your business, you have some interns. Do you have anyone else who's helping with you, or how have you kind of managed that? I know that when you, you know, um, I saw it mentioned in your process that, you know, you make sure everything is mapped out before you ever, you know, apply a brush of paint to a wall or something. Um, but yeah, how else do you, you know, what, what does the, the personnel look like to kind of complete a project, or what have you found that's working for you to make sure that you can do what you should be doing and not the stuff that doesn't need to be done by you.

Yeah, for sure. So it's ever-evolving. And, um, and I'll say that like definitely like one of the challenges that I still have is that I am a single-member LLC, right? So at the end of the day, the buck stops with me. And, um, that, that, that can be tough essentially. Like when it comes to like any decision-making, I'm gonna be that bottleneck if a lot of decisions need to be made. And I recognize that. But just as far as how I've been able to manage where I am right now, I reached a certain point when like I was just at capacity working at 100% or more and my website crashed. My website actually got hacked. And you're like, who hacks an art website? But it turns out that there are a lot of bots that will attack smaller websites and hijack them essentially and use them to attack bigger sites. And I was just leaving on vacation, and like the first vacation that I had taken in far too long, and this happens. And I'm the only person managing the website. And that for me was like the tipping point of like, I gotta get help. This can't just be me. I can, like build and maintain my own website does not mean that I should, right? And, um, and, and then from there, like, you're finding like, okay, well, like these are things that I can do, but like really anyone can do them. Anyone can maintain my website, right? So like outsourcing that to a freelance person, like there's still a lot that, that I do with it and it's still the website that I built, but like, as far as like updates go and maintenance goes, like that doesn't need to be me. Photography. I hate photographing my work. I've done it for years and I know how to do it. I'm decent at it, but it takes hours, days out of my life. And during that time I'm not creating new work and I'm certainly not selling and getting new clients. So with this also, as far as a reframe, a lot of times when people make that leap to be self-employed. One, yes, at the beginning you do have to wear a lot of hats, but two, you're almost like sold on like, oh, like it has to like just be you. You have to show that you can do it yourself. And you're just like, you know what, like I have no desire to be a freelance photographer. This person is building a career as a freelance photographer. They actually want to do this. So I can actually create jobs and opportunities and invest in somebody else's business. Oh my gosh, look at that, like how great is that?

It's a win-win-win, guys.

It's a win-win, and you're part of an ecosystem, right? So that's like, that's where I started like, alright, I don't want to do the website anymore, I don't want to do the photography anymore, like there are other people who want to do that and can really flourish from getting business and doing it. And then from there, you know, like I mentioned early, upon that education as an important part of what I do. So where I am now, for any of these mural projects, I hire on a contractor team to do the project. I always handle the front-end stuff as far as meeting with the client, negotiating, closing the deal, and doing the design. I've had a few projects where I've co-designed something with somebody else, so that's one option as well as far as sharing that workload. But in general, I'll create the design and then build out that team. And I've set the parameters like, hey, like, this is, like, this is what we have, this is the equipment we have, this is what it looks like. And I break up the image in a way that it makes it easy for everybody to just like jump in and do the work. And I'm hiring people who are skilled in the field who have the talent and can execute big projects. So depending on the project, like I may have a team of anywhere from 1 to 6 people working on a project with me. And then with that, I started taking on interns. And then this for me has been a way of really scaffolding up the next group of artists because frankly art school doesn't prepare us for this. It doesn't and it's a shame. And I know that there are a lot of these things that I had to learn the hard way. I talk like I know so much now, you know, but there was a time when I did not know this stuff and I definitely made mistakes, I definitely lost out on things or got taken advantage of. And that I want to provide a resource that can help others get down this path more easily. Because frankly, the next generation has other hard problems to solve that my generation and generations before me did not solve. So I need to free them up to do that by making this part easier.

Oh, I love that. Yeah, yeah. And recognizing, and I, because it's true to the maxim of like new level, new devil, because I don't believe the goal is for us to get rid of all of our problems. Because I think if you're chasing that, you're always going to be disappointed because you'll get new challenges. They're hopefully better and they're increasing or they're more interesting. But, but yeah, recognizing that if you can help people who are coming up behind you, give them an arm up, solve those problems, they can tackle more interesting ones.

Yeah, yeah, definitely. So, uh, so yeah, so like I try to design my projects where there, like, there, there is that space for somebody who is learning to come on and then they're working with me, they're working with other experienced muralists on a project with something that like, I'm using murals as an example since it's an easy one, but like in the studio too with printmaking, like, hey, like I've been like making prints and doing woodcuts for like a decade, right? Like I got a lot of information to share in that I can teach somebody the processes for how to make really good quality work. And, um, and then it's just, it's on me to make sure that I've mapped out that process so that, uh, so people can step into these roles and, and learn effectively.

So they can— it's, you know, replicatable, it's scalable. There's, you know, there's, there's a step-by-step way to do that that makes sense. So there's a consistent process. Yeah.

Yeah.

Oh, I love that. And so when you are, you know, whether you're, you're the one doing all the design yourself or whether you're having people, you know, parse out and do parts of it. How do you, um, keep your work creative? How do you make sure that you're, um, you're keeping that good wellspring of creativity, that you're not getting close to someone else's work? And I know this is something that people are asking me all the time in terms of how close is too close. And of course people will be like, well, I've heard I only have to change 10%. And I'm like, no, that's a lie. I don't know who came up with that, but that's, that's not how copyright law works. But, um, but what have you done, or do you have any tips in terms of, um, just being, being careful and thoughtful about influences in your work and making sure that you're, um, you're having a genuine voice and you're not, um, you know, just copying someone else?

Yeah, you know, I like— I think that takes a lot of practice and a lot of time and, um, and research and revalue— reevaluation, you know. So, uh, with With my work, like, I tend to be very research intensive. So there are ideas that I know I tend to congregate around that I like to center a body of work on and that I take that time first to write, to write and to sketch and to explore. And think about what it is about this idea that's really compelling to me. And sometimes in the first round of brainstorming you get some good stuff, but most often we have to revisit a lot because if it's something that came to us really easily, chances are it came to a lot of other people really easily too. And then that's when you can look things up online as well. If you're like, hey, has this ever been done before? You can check., right? And like, yeah, there's like, on the one hand, there's like nothing new under the sun, but also everything that we've made is unique, right?

Yeah, I don't think everything, you know, yeah, not every anything is 100% unique, but everything's a remix and no one's done it like the way that you've done it in this moment in this way, right?

Right. And I think like, like we, like there's not an exact science to how to navigate that. And I would agree with you what you said earlier. It's not like, oh, like this person did this, and if I just change it 10%— no, no, no, no. Like that, like now you're admitting that you copied.

I changed the color. It was yellow and I made it purple, so now it's okay. Yeah.

Nope. No, you just admitted that you copied. Like, that's what, that's what that is, right? Like, if you say that it was something already and then you copied, it's like, that's different from like creating something, arriving at this idea on your own, and later finding out somebody else arrived at a similar solution. Yeah.

If you've— all you did was scan it into Illustrator, guess what? That is copying, guys.

That's copying. Yeah, exactly. Yes, absolutely. So it's like, so I'm like with you on that 100%. And that like, yeah, like basically like, like one, like ask yourself how you arrived at that idea to like take that time. Like if you're not sure to do some research on whether this has been done before and, and if there are some like overlapping themes, like that's, that's okay. Because like, again, like, you know, the reason that you and I are also able to talk is because we have a common language, right? We have a structure in place. So like our goal as artists isn't to reinvent paint every single time we do a painting, right? But we are trying to arrive at these ideas with a unique perspective. We can take inspiration from other things, we can look at what's been done, but our goal is still to arrive at things with a unique perspective and to bring forth an idea that other people might not have thought of, right? So it's just like intent here, intent here, and how we arrive at things is really important.

Oh, I love that. So you, you are so good at putting things— for someone who's a visual artist and works in the visual medium, you have quite a gift with words. And so I've loved— I know that we are going to get so many great quotes out of this episode, um, that I'm so excited. So, you know, get excited to be all over Pinterest. Um, but just because the, the way that you are approaching this, the process, and about what art means and what it doesn't mean, and what, um, you know, how much meaning it can have to you, and yet where it can have its place and not, um, I guess not, not the weight of it, or it doesn't have to be this heavy thing that, you know, keeps you in a box, but allows you to really build bridges with other mediums, with other parts of your life, with other people, with other disciplines. Um, and I think that that's such theme of your work and just your journey in, in this space. Yeah, for sure. Um, okay, I wanted to leave our— my listeners with, um, with a little list. So I think you were going to maybe share some ways that you can kind of be more involved in public art. Um, so, you know, people, if they're involved with their community, whether they're going to be the artist or they're just concerned and they'd like to see more art in public spaces, and they're, you know, they're like, yeah, Jenny, we're behind you, you know, you know, fist in the air, um, what are some things that we can do to try to promote that and share and increase that visibility in our, in our beautiful shared spaces?

Yeah, so one, I would say look up the organizations in your area. Most cities and municipalities in both urban and rural areas have an arts commission or an arts board. It could be a statewide or it could be a city-based one. So I'd look those up. Different organizations are going to have different term lengths. In Madison, our arts commission has a term of 3 years. And so my recommendation is that every artist join one of these boards or commissions because you're going to learn a lot about the backend of how decisions get made in a city, how decisions get made at a nonprofit. You're also going to be immediately plugged into a network of people with a wide range of experience and expertise. City commissions and nonprofits try to get a breadth of different skill sets. So that right there like immediately branches you out to so many other groups. So one, look up what those organizations are, which one aligns with you, jump in there. Two, if you don't have it already, get an LLC. Like, I just, like, I don't even—

I did not put Jenny up to that, guys. I swear, I don't put anyone up to, to saying get legit.

I just, I literally, like, yesterday, like I told you, I was on a panel discussion yesterday for Creative Economy Week. It's Creative Economy Week, everybody. Um, and I literally made all the artists in that room raise their right hand and take a pledge with me that they were all going to learn, that they were all going to get an LLC, and they were going to learn how to read and negotiate a contract.

Oh, I love that so, so much.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure it will save you a lot of headache too. Like people coming to you with things like, I signed it already. Can I still negotiate it?

Yeah. No, that, that is kind of the nature of the signing is like you guys agreed and now this is the deal. Or people coming to me with their 1,000 excuses as to why they're not an LLC and why they don't think they need to. And they talk to an accountant. It's not your accountant's job, guys. It's a legal issue. Issue, and you got to get your stuff together so that you can protect yourself.

It takes you less than an hour. It's less than 1 hour. Name it whatever you want. It doesn't mean that that's a name you have to use, but exactly, exactly. Now you pay a fee once. So yeah, so join an organization, um, board or commission, get an LLC, learn how to read and negotiate a contract, especially if you're going to be doing large public works. That entail lots of different interests. Get business insurance. Since this is specifically public art that we're talking about, if you're going to be climbing on a scaffold or you're going to send anybody else up on a scaffold or boom lift, get business insurance. And this is also an argument point too with anybody who wants to hire you. I've had prospective clients come to me before like, what if we like provide you with the scaffold and with the paint, like, will it be cheaper? And I'm like, look, I have to pay people with business insurance and workers' comp. Like, what happens if someone falls off your scaffold, right? Like, oh, I hadn't thought of that. It's like, okay, all right. People think it's just putting paint on the wall or just like putting like some nails up. Like, no, it's not, right? Yeah, that's the 5. There are a lot more that I could give as well, but really Learn about the laws and infrastructures that exist and what still does not exist. So there are some great resources for this. There's NASA, which is N-A-S-A-A, which is an arts organization that has a lot of data for the arts and arts funding, what public funding is available. Learn what there is, learn where the US ranks compared to other countries, because quite frankly, we're last amongst developed nations.

Yeah, we're not doing great there, guys.

We're not doing great, we're doing terribly. And like, you know, like here in the Midwest especially, and like Wisconsin is 48th in the nation for funding for the arts, and that's after the US being last amongst developed countries.

So yes, that's like the shortest pygmy. Yeah, it's not an honor for sure.

It's not an honor. It's not an honor. And it doesn't mean like— I say that acknowledging that I've been able to build a full-time business and that it is still possible. But you gotta arm yourself with this information. So know, know the environment that you're going into, know what exists and what does not exist, and know that you're gonna have to be—

part of your is going to be in an information outreach education advocate role in this space, that the work is not going to come easily and there are going to be stakeholders and decision makers that you are going to have to pitch and convince of this investment. Yeah, in this way.

Yes, there are. And, and you can only do that if you have done your homework. You need to advocate and you need to do your homework in order to advocate.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Oh, I love these tips. These are amazing. So, um, well, we're out of time and I don't want to keep you because you are a busy woman with all kinds of fabulous stuff and we don't want to put a stop in the amazing work that's coming out of your studio. And out of your brilliant hand. But if people want to connect with you, if they want to follow and see more of the amazing work that you're doing in the Midwest and really all over, where can they find you?

Yeah, so they can find me at my website, jenny.org. It's just my first name, dot org. You can find me on Instagram and on Twitter under the handle Jenny Gao, so it's just my full name. And you can also find me on Facebook. My business page is Jenny Gao Studio.

Awesome. Okay, well, and we'll put all those links in the show notes for everybody. But thank you, Jenny, so much for joining me today. I just, I love this discussion, and I think this is going to be really helpful, um, no matter of what type of artist or where people find themselves in, um, in being part of this fight, you know, advocating for creativity and trying to look across, you know, disciplines to find how creativity is good for our soul, is good for our survival. Um, there's good stuff for all of us, so thank you for that.

Yeah, thank you too, Brittany. Yeah, it's been my pleasure.

Okay, isn't Jenny just fabulous? Um, I'm so glad I ran into her at Alt Summit and got a chance to meet her and bring her to you guys and just share a lot of her wisdom. I just love how Jenny just goes to the heart of the matter of dispelling the myth about being a starving artist, um, and how to look at being a, a creator of successful art business in your own right, how to support other artists in that, how to make sure that we as creatives and creators just support art in our communities. We, we look for ways to make sure that we increase funding on all levels of government, with institutions, and just make sure that we're, we're being good stewards in that community and supporting the arts and making it easier for us all to have these really necessary parts of our culture and our humanity that can be enjoyed by us and allow us to develop those gifts and also support ourselves and our businesses and our family. So all really great stuff. This is a reminder, if you've been enjoying the podcast, which, yay, I, I love that. I love when you guys, um, you know, I get a chance to chat with you and you tell me you're listening and you're learning and you're devouring it and you're painting walls and listening. And I love all of that. Um, I'd love also for you to subscribe, um, and for you to leave a review if you haven't done that. It makes it so much easier for people to find the podcast. It, you know, gives it priority in terms of the different podcast players, and especially it allows it now that Apple Podcasts is trying out a new searchable feature. A lot of that, you know, that search algorithm is impacted by, you know, the social proof that's given this podcast. And so the more feedback that I get from you guys in the form of those ratings and reviews on your iTunes really helps the podcast helps us get out and be seen as a legitimate resource for people who are looking for these answers. And certainly, I think all of us can think of some creative entrepreneurs, some, some business besties that we know who would love to listen to this and to use this information to help grow their businesses, to feel more confident as business owners, as entrepreneurs. So rate, review, send over to a friend— all of it is certainly appreciated. And if you haven't had a chance to check out our resources in the show notes, I have some of the links that Jenny mentioned in the show, as well as resources like my free business checklist. If you haven't downloaded that, you can get the link to that, as well as my other— in my other resources on Instagram. That's where I post a lot of the free legal tips and tricks. And so if you connect with me on there, you can get access to that. Also remember that if you are interested in working with me one-on-one, or just exploring what that might look like, if you want to get a better feel for me and hiring an attorney and what kind of things I offer, then please, you know, book one of those free consult times that I offer. Um, for now I can still offer those 15 minutes. Um, I don't know if I'll always be able to in my practice, just as my— I grow. Um, and you guys need more and more from me, which is awesome. It's a really good problem to have. But at the time of this recording, I'm still able to offer— able to offer those. So make sure you click that link. And also make sure you check out the Creative Contract Store. So those are my DIY templates So for a lot of people who are just starting out or who just need some really solid legal agreements to get some good foundations for the business, whether it's your website policies or an independent contractor agreement or a sponsorship agreement if you're doing influencer marketing, or an event release, all of those, or a model release, all of those are in that shop. So I'll also check out that link in the show notes or google creativecontracts.co, put that in and you'll be able to find it and peruse and take my free legal quiz on there to find out what you need exactly for your business. Okay, don't get overwhelmed and lost in some Facebook group or Google law school. Find out exactly what you need and probably what you don't need and start, you know, checking those things off your list. Thanks again, guys, so much for being here and just your support of the podcast and your support of yourself. Thanks for investing in your business in what some may term the unsexy, unfun part of your business, But we here at the Creative Council Podcast know better and know that, you know, investing in these business fundamentals— see what I did there— can be a really important part and really useful way to you to grow in your confidence and stature and ability to grow your business exactly where you want it to take you. So thanks so much for being here. Catch you on the flip side.