How to Slay a Styled Shoot Like a Creative Director with Rebecca M Creative - 58

Creative Counsel Episode 58: How to Slay a Styled Shoot Like a Creative Director with Rebecca M. Creative. Welcome to Creative Counsel with Brittany Ratel. I'm your host Brittany, an attorney for creatives who believes in solid contracts and cute office supplies and who wants to empower you to be a more confident business owner. Whether you're a creative, influencer, maker, artist, shop owner, or content creator, you are not just a blank. You are a real bona fide business owner. So let's help you own your business and get you legally legit with With Britt. Hey there, friend, and welcome back. I appreciate you being here and listening to me and just trying to work on your business and taking some of your time out. I know that during— we're still kind of in the midst of this quarantine, shelter-in-place, COVID-19 hot mess, and I know that for me, I've gotten less time to listen to stuff because I'm not in my car and I don't have a lot of quiet around my house. That's in short supply, almost as short supply as toilet paper. So if that's the case for you too and you are tuning in in some of the rare quieter moments or while you're multitasking, then all the more appreciation I send your way and love and light and just those deep breaths, okay, that we're all going to make it through. I know that what we're in now is a tunnel and not a cave, and that's a really, really important distinction even in the midst of things. So also thank you to everyone who's been leaving reviews on the podcast. I really, really appreciate that, and it actually is kind of a big deal for letting people find this podcast and for it to be discovered and to come up when they're searching for the these types of topics.

The—

Apple is trying to, and the rest of the podcast hosts are trying to get better about making podcast content searchable and tagging and stuff, just because that's the limit for audio right now, is we have all this amazing content and it's hard for people to find actually the answers and what they're trying to look for. So all that is trying to catch up, but a way that we can help with that, and we can help that make sure that the people who are wondering about stuff and want questions and want to know how— what the heck are they supposed to do to figure out licensing and trademarks and copyrights and how to build a modern creative business, what does that even look like? Let's make sure that they can find this podcast. So I really appreciate you leaving a review. You can do that by scrolling to the bottom of your podcast app if you're listening on the Apple Podcasts, or going on your desktop, and you'll see there it says write a review. You can leave some stars or a couple few words. I appreciate all of it so, so much. So, or share an episode with a friend if something that you've been listening to, or this one, I'd appreciate that as well. Okay, so let's get into introducing our amazing guest today. So we have Rebecca Curtis, um, and Rebecca is a creative professional who is passionate about helping brands and artists tell their stories through production, styling, and social media and branding. She's a certified Facebook developer and can wield both the producer and the director role to create stunning images and innovative campaigns for her clients. She's worked as a creative producer, event producer, social media consultant, and currently leverages her talents as an independent creative producer and director. And she's also the editor for Southwest Wed from the Isle Society. So you, as you can tell, Rebecca is an incredibly talented individual who has, is really well known and respected, especially in the events and the wedding industry. That's where her real expertise lies. And so I'm really excited to have her on and have a discussion about what is going on there and what are some of the legal things and pitfalls that she's seen with people doing events, with doing styled shoots, and how can we make sure that as we, if we're a vendor or if we're working in the event space,, in some way, whether we're a creative professional who's, who's in and serves events for clients, or we're hiring these people. Um, what can we do to make sure that we're covering our bases and we're avoiding some of these problems and that we can have smooth sailing and amazing results, amazing content, and amazing campaigns out of this?

I am so excited to introduce our guest today. I have on here Rebecca Curtis of Rebecca M Creative, and we're so excited to have her share her wisdom with us. So welcome, Rebecca.

Thank you for having me. I'm really excited to be here.

Awesome. Well, why don't you kind of start off and give our listeners a little bit of your creative origin story? Let us know what you, um, how you kind of got started in doing what you're doing now, um, and then, you know, what you're liking about it and what that looks kind of in its current iteration.

Sounds great. So I am a creative director and producer, and how I got started comes in a lot of different ways, but originally it's just from when I was a child. When I was a child, my aunt was a dedicated subscriber of Vogue magazine, and she was older and single, so she would take us on the weekends every once in a while for an adventure. And one time when she was taking me to the circus, she had me overnight and there was a pile of Vogue magazines. And I just remember that she slept in and I got up and I read Vogue for hours. That's the silliest thing ever. But I can remember campaigns from those very pages. And she snuck one home in my bag that night. And I kept it for years. It's gone now. But it's actually interesting. If you open up some of my boxes from my childhood keepsakes, I have bridal magazines and InStyle magazines from like the '90s. It's hilarious.

Yeah, you, you were, you were clipping and pinning long before the digital boards of Pinterest.

Yeah, long, long before. Whenever we played pretend, I was always a magazine owner. Awesome. I ran all of that. It was hilarious. Um, but part of that was that my dreams were to go to New York, and in my mom's old Encyclopedia Britannica I know I'm old. I'm not that old, actually. I just have an old soul. But I would map out where I wanted to live and what I would do, and I would cross-reference it with the fashion magazines that I was reading, which is a weird thing. But as I grew up and entered into my career, I did end up moving to New York City. I moved to New York City as a full-time nanny for an editor-in-chief of a seasonal magazine called Hampton Style. And I've actually been mentioned in a Vogue article that she wrote. And I got to go to Fashion Week and participate on the set of productions for cover shoots of Marie Claire. And it was really exciting. But I knew that's where I wanted to end up. But how do you get there? It's kind of impossible. But I did go to go back to school and I have my Bachelor of Science in English literature. Which sounds really like it doesn't match. It does. It's a Bachelor's of Science, which means I study cultures and science of language in all its forms. And language can mean art, it can mean film, it can mean music, it can mean theater. But I have always been interested in fashion and how I got my start here in Utah in the fashion community was with Utah Fashion Week. I became their social media director and I helped run the front of house for the 2016 Utah Fashion Week in Salt Lake. And it was their rebrand year. They moved from Provo Fashion Week to Utah Fashion Week. And I remember in particular, Janae Marie, who is the producer and has been with them since the very beginning, she mentioned to me on social media when they had like no followers, that she doesn't know what they would do if they sold out an event because they hadn't done it before. And I was determined, using my knowledge of social media and of language and my love and passion for fashion, that I was gonna sell it out. And so with the amazing people in Utah and the hard work of that team, they are so hardworking, we sold out 2016 Utah Fashion Week twice.

That's amazing, wow.

It was like my favorite, oh, to see that like sold out number was just like, yes, we did it. Exactly. And meeting all the creatives that you meet during that process, I just built relationships in person and we took them to social. It was incredible to see what the power of social media and fashion and an actual genuine love and knowledge can do. So I started working with some of the designers off to the side, and Utah Fashion Week is not a full-time job, it's just on the side of my job. So I'm still full-time in the corporate world at that time, but I started working with them to do their photo shoot productions and just, I knew about the publishing world and I didn't quite know how to get in that door. So reaching back out to contacts, I built and learned and grew and made mistakes which were terrible. Now looking back at them, I have shoots that I don't even look at anymore because I'm just like, oh please no. But in 2017, the June of 2017, um, Bari Handbags I'm good friends with Ashley, the owner and creator of them. She reached out to me with a concept for their creative campaign for the summer, and it was so unique, but I knew that I could do it. And I got a small team together and we shot this gorgeous campaign. It is stunning. It's Cuba-based. It looks phenomenal. Fabulous. We shot it in 103-degree weather in June. Oh. In bright light. Morgan Lee Photography shot it, and she's fantastic. But afterwards, we were like, um, we need like a gallon of water right now.

It was really, you know, got full method acting of like that Cuban, you know, Cubana sweat going on.

Oh yeah, we didn't have to pretend that at all. That sunshine was all real, was real, was all 100% legit. So it's fantastic, but And that was just the beginning. So that started my campaigns, and I've done work for Maggie Cetero Curvy. That's been published nationally, internationally a few times now and is all over their Pinterest boards. I've done work for quite a few people. A Montserrat Modest prom, I worked with Brianna White Photography for that, and we shot that in studio. But I can whip together a shoot pretty quickly. I do a lot of it for passion. And then just in the last year and a half, I was like, nope, it publishes or it pays. And that's how it goes. And yeah, I really took a really hard look at what I was doing legally and contractually. And I was really lucky at the very beginning. I had Kylie Ann Mon of Kylie Ann Studios. She said, doesn't matter if you do it full-time because you need to go at your own pace, but make sure that you have your LLC registered and ready to go and you're trademarked, you're good to go. And I listened, and I think that's the best advice. It was amazing.

So, oh my gosh, I— and I did not tee Rebecca up to say that, you guys. I, I know everyone always thinks that I brag that, that I might be, you know, over here, um, yeah, baiting my guests. But, um, but yeah, that's amazing that, you know, you took those steps. Well, well, walk me through what was it like for you to, you know, leave corporate corporate and to really follow what you wanted to be doing? What did that look like and how did you do that process?

So it was really scary actually for me. I am a professional in the social media world, which has a lot of technology, a lot of depth, but it's also a very new and exciting platform. So I do really well, but it means that there are sometimes restraint as a female in it, and in certain areas people don't value it as highly as they should. And I just knew that I didn't want to continue to just do social media, which is not a downgrade on anyone who does. Social media is vital, but I knew this is where I needed to be. So I did everything on the side up until about June of last year. My corporation that I worked for locally in Silicon Slopes started discussing that they would be selling, um, soon, and they were going to start giving us different duties in the marketing department, and that just did not sit well with me. I already wasn't really excited with the lack of design voice that I had. It's a technology company, so it's very different from what I did for my passion and my work outside, but I just knew I wanted more flexibility, and given the time frame, I could make it work. So I kind of volunteered myself for the first round of layoffs. And in September, they downgraded our marketing department.

You volunteered as tribute?

I know. I was like, please, right here. I can do this. They were getting rid of everyone's position, and I would become somebody that did content writing as well as SEO. And I just, I had to teach the individual who we brought on for SEO already. And I was just like, you know what? I am good. I can step back and do this myself. And honestly, the timing could not have been better. My father suffered some very severe health issues this fall, and the flexibility allowed me to be with my family. But I told myself, no waiting on it. I had to take it seriously. June— or January 1st, I was 100% solid myself. And it actually was very hard. I cried a lot. I'm an emotional person that way. But it was scary to not have a net to catch me, to not have a fallback, to not have something where I can say, you know what, I'm gonna step back from this for a minute, but that's okay, I still have my salary. You don't have that anymore.

No, there was no plan B. You know, I, I watched a video documentary of Arnold Schwarzenegger, and he was talking about that, and he was really railing against people of saying, look, if you have a plan B, then you're not all in. He's like, by definition, you can't be because you're already thinking in a little bit of the back of your head, what's your plan and how else are you gonna do it? And so, yeah, he was really adamant with your approach, which is that you gotta burn the ships behind you and be really committed that you have to make this work.

You know what's interesting is that 2 years ago last April is when Kylie Ann gave me my legal advice, but that same night, Katie Stice of Roots Floral Design told me her origin story and it Part of that was she didn't book the clients she wanted until she quit her job and said, I'm just gonna jump in, all in. And she was like, you know what, you have to find your place to where you're so fed up and where you're ready to go on your own. But when you get there, just do it. Like, don't tiptoe around it. I've had some amazing support from some of the women and men that I work with in this industry, and it has made all the difference.

That's amazing. So, and what a great thing to recognize is that, you know, no person is an island, but it's really great when people can actually, you know, can rise up to and that it's, you know, community over competition in a very real way and not just, you know, a little platitude hashtag on Instagram.

Right. And you have to find those people. There have not been all successes, let me tell you. But as I've been burned, I have to learn from it. And so I move on and now I find that I fail faster. And that's a book I just read recently was about failing as fast as you can. Yes. Because then you get more successful and if you can learn from it, that's great. Last February, I read a book by Sheryl Sandberg, who actually ironically works for Facebook now, but she didn't then, called Lean In. And she said, even if it's a hard road to go on, If we all lean in and build a bridge for the people who come behind us, they get a better road. So build a better road, make it a better place. And as a director and a producer, my roles are very different, although they seem similar, but they build roads for other people. And it is— it gives me no other joy than to see the people that I've worked with, that I've collaborated with, be successful. It's really a unique experience in our industry. We don't have many of me in Utah, and it's a weird—

No, I mean, there's not that many of you, period, but let alone, you know, in a, um, you know, in a smaller state that's not on the coast, but yet that has a burgeoning, you know, industry in fashion and obviously in apparel and, um, children and lifestyle goods. Like, there's a lot of, you know, multi-million dollar companies. Yeah.

So yeah. Yeah, people discount Utah for the power that it is. No, they should not. They should watch out.

Yeah, exactly. Um, well, tell people a little bit about what, um, like you kind of referred to, what does a creative director, a slash producer, do? If someone's kind of unfamiliar and is like, what exactly does that involve in doing? Like, how do you approach and what would you do on a campaign if someone were hiring that kind of person? What would they expect that you would, you would manage and take over?

Oh, fantastic. I am a deconstructionist in nature. What that means is I really like definitions. I like to take things apart, so I love that question. One of the things for me is a producer in an, in an industry— there's many industries that use producers, but in fashion photography and in photography in general, so commercials, campaigns, things like that, um, a producer is responsible for the managerial aspects of any creative project, and that kind of overarches every industry. So if you have a music producer, they're responsible for making sure the album gets out on time, that things are done within budget, that everything's rented out how they need to. Similarly, that is what I do. So it can come to me in many different stages, but if a project comes my way, I instantly take the creative. I just I work with the people who are the client. Usually it's the person paying. Paying means client. That's how that works. But if it's collaborative, it's the person whose concept it is, and I respect that very, very highly. Even if the model comes to me and says, I have a concept, I work with them to achieve their goal. That's what I do. But I will determine what they want their outcome to be, and from a very logistical kind of not creative standpoint. We talk about budgeting, dates. I run everyone's dates. I make sure everyone has credit. I make sure everyone has the information, timeline, mood board. Do you have the inspiration you need? Do you have all the props you need? What do you need direction-wise? I've even, day before a shoot, as there's a storm coming in, said, can you leave 25 minutes earlier so you drive safely and I'm not worried about you getting a speeding ticket? Things like that. I'm the command center of the logistical aspects of everything. It's a lot of weight on a photographer to do that all on their own, and actually that's why a lot of photographers don't succeed at styled shoots, is what they call them. But, um, I shoot editorials, and that's a little different. It's just not play for everyone. We make sure that everyone is equally represented in the content equally balanced in time and respected on set. I don't have disrespect or drama on my sets. That's something I'm very passionate about. If someone has an issue, they tell me afterward and we handle it, but I won't have it.

Makes everything flow. Exactly.

So, so important.

So yeah. And so tell us a little bit, yeah, about the producer, about the creative director side.

Creative director is once I step on set, I'm still the producer. But as director, I work with the photographer in tandem. Usually I am tethered to their camera, either on my iPhone or a computer or a screen of some form, and I can help them with posing. Most of the time I have built up a relationship with the models and with the client, so I work as their go-between to make sure that— so once we're on set, the goal of the production is completed. So do we have all the images we need? Do we have everything that tells a story? For me, that's really important. I also make sure that we have the different ratios of the image. I know images that will publish higher than others, that there are must-have images to make a publication or whatever the goal is. If you're doing a website, the layouts are for website version of it. And sometimes the photographer will be like, do you have something else in mind? And I'll have a creative image in my head, or we'll work on posing guides. But I work with fantastic photographers who know what they're doing, and our communication is typically seamless. I watch for bra straps, I watch for wardrobe issues, hair issues, a little added oomph. But I— have you ever seen America's Next Top Model?

Yes.

Yeah. So J Manuel on set, the silver-haired guy. I am J Manuel. That is you. Yeah. So I actually use some of his phraseology. My new favorite one is, honey, a camera can't catch you if you're moving like a cheetah. Like a snake. That's perfect. I love that. Yeah.

Slow, quick, quick, slow.

That's right.

Yeah. Yeah. And I'll tell a model like, can you hear her camera? Let me have her turn up her shutter. And as soon as you hear a click, I want something to move, whether that's a hand, finger, smile to a smize, to an eye, to an eyebrow, to change something. I actually just got a text right before we started from a photographer who's editing just a fun shoot we wanted to do and we went out and did. And she said, I am so grateful for you. And I was like, oh my gosh, I love texts like these, but why? Like, what's the randomness? Yes. And she said, uh, you told the model to close her mouth, and every time her mouth was opened in the shot, it ruined the shot because it became erotic and it ruined it. Uh, yeah. And it's like, oh. So she's like, yeah, instead of getting 10 images that I can use I now have a couple hundred. I was like, yeah, yeah.

And just little changes like that can make just an incredible difference.

Yeah, I will stick on a model. I can— I'll go through magazines and I'll look for notes that I would have made on that shoot. I go through my own shoots, and even if I have a model that I'm very familiar with that I adore, I usually have a note for them for next time, like, okay, we're gonna do this, and here, level your chin, and But I can take guys who have never shot a campaign before and make them into a fashion model. And I'm very proud of that fact. It's awesome. When I get in front of a camera, I look like a hot mess, but not with someone else.

But behind the camera, that's where the magic happens.

Yeah.

Yeah. My photographers have great voices, so I don't ever try and go over their voice. We work together. We are a team.

Yeah. And you can tell that because you have such a good respect for the creative process and what's going on that Yeah, it's able to happen the way that it should be. So it's, you know, you're getting the benefit of a lot of people's really talented eyes and not, like you said, drama.

Exactly. And they create so fast on a dime. Oh, photographers are phenomenal. They are such artists. But it can be a little difficult sometimes when you're working on a campaign, especially to make sure you're hitting all the right notes constantly with flow. And we inspire each other and it works out really well. Um, I have photographers that are like masterful light artists, and I have photographers who literally can like sense my move as we're moving. It's really fun. But I work in tandem with 3 in particular right now. Um, I used to work with one, she moved out of Utah, and I really prefer it. We have a really good time. Videographers the same, they just The good ones are really good.

Yeah.

And they can tell an amazing story. So, um, well, I wanted to touch on something because I posted recently about styled shoots, and of course you hopped on and you had some great things to add to the discussion. Um, but you talked about the difference between a styled shoot, a concept shoot, and an editorial. Um, and I wanted you to have maybe explain that a little bit because I think, um, that I kind of knew what you were talking about. So I bet you there's other people who definitely don't know that difference.

Yeah. It's actually quite interesting how many people do them professionally but don't understand the difference between the three. And there are very different kinds of shoots. So the first is a concept shoot. Now concept shoot can be done by a brand or it can be done by creative. So this year, the color of the year was announced at the beginning of the year. Pantone color, it is coral. And it's living coral, which I find to be amazing, that little added.

Right, leave it, leave it to Pantone to be very specific.

Right, gotta love them. I do, I'm a Pantone fan. But instantly you saw designers and artists come out with flat lays and table settings around the concept of that color. That is a concept shoot. The purpose of that shoot is to play with a style, designer, theme. Now that sounds like a styled shoot, it's not. It doesn't have to include people. It doesn't have to include any sort of certain items. It's, if you're a bridal designer, if you wanna do a concept shoot, you can shoot, say you're going to do all lace, you can shoot lace swatches and some sketches. That's a concept shoot. You're shooting for your concept. So creating images that would be really great to use in mood boards, basically that's what a concept shoot is. And it's not as popularly used anymore. People merged into styled shoots. A styled shoot is a group of, it should be collaborative. If you are paying for a styled shoot, you better have an amazing designer behind it. I use Tressa of Cultivated Events Design Co. She is amazing. She is a wedding planner, but she is a set designer, and I— there's a difference between the two. It's not massive, but there is one, and she can design pretty much anything. I love working with her, but styled shoots are just for everyone's creative play, kind of their portfolio. Yeah, right, it's portfolio work, and it's not around— you can have a concept or a theme, but it's typically not hugely set. Everyone kind of gets a mood board, and it's styled so that everyone has an opportunity to shoot and get images they need. A content shoot for a creative, that's really what it is. It sounds like there's not a lot of difference between the two, but there are some pretty distinct lines that people don't pay attention to. Companies pay for concept shoots, they do not pay for styled shoots. Styled shoots, in my opinion, and people can hate me for this, styled shoots, unless done by a company for a shootout, which many wedding planners do shootouts, that's perfectly fine, unless done within the boundaries of specific workshops, they shouldn't be done, because— and especially not paid for. I mean, if a group of collaborative people want to get together and say, let's play around with these ideas and try these, it doesn't have to be a success. It can be a big failure, but it still was a styled shoot. That's the purpose of it, was just to play around with style, and that's the focal point of it. An editorial, however, Editorial is to build either a lookbook, an article. It is made for publication purpose, and that is what an editorial is. The distinction between the two words is very important because editorial images should tell a story in every single image. Mm-hmm. They should have minimal text, but they should have a writing portion of it. Most publications will say now that they are refusing shoots based on the fact that you have no streamlined story and there's no written portion. And I work really closely with a lot of them. In particular, there was an editor for real weddings from Harper's Bazaar that just did an Instagram Live, and she said, we get so many weddings where the photographer has not shot in story form at all. And there's a story to every love story. So what story are you missing? And I think that's really important for photographers to pay attention to, is what story are you trying to tell?

You should tell a story. Gotcha. Okay, well, that, that, that, no, that really helps and explains, you know, just how people should be thoughtful. And because I think what tends to happen now is that, um, because everyone needs so much content, and of course, you know, they need it for the gram, they need it for the website or whatnot, that you know, people get together and are like, hey, you know, we should, we should get together, we should have some sort of collaborative shoot. Um, and I'm sure that these terms and these kind of ideas are all being used interchangeably without people really asking themselves maybe some of the tougher questions on what is this for, what's its purpose, and because of that, what kind of work or thought do we need to make into developing and really fleshing out all these ideas.

Exactly. One of the very first things I got as feedback after doing a collaborative shoot is that there were certain vendors that were not paid attention to at all, that they felt used and very abused by the entire industry, that they felt that even though the photographer or planner or whoever was concept— whose conception it was, um, had needed them on set, that they never got anything back that they could actually use. So if the cake designer makes a cake for you, that's expensive. It doesn't seem like as much as you would charge a photographer. It can be so expensive in terms of time and material.

Are you kidding me?

Yeah, right. And people sometimes don't equate the value of what I do because it sometimes doesn't have fully tangible items. But I'm like, um, one time a concept took me over 200 hours. It was a lot. So between logistics of everyone texting me and constantly working out the details and using my relationship with vendors to get free locations, and you have to benefit everyone. So that's what I do is I make sure all the boxes are checked. It is disappointing though when you don't get images back that equitably value what you've put together, and that can be a disappointment, but you have to learn really fast who are the professionals you wanna work with. And an advice from Gary Vee, I love him.

I love Gary Vee too. He's not for everybody, you know, he's a character, but.

Blunt.

He's really blunt.

Yes, yes. But one thing he did say, he did a Rising Tide Society webinar a year ago, I think, and he did it for free. And I have worked to book Gary Vee for an event before as an event planner. I know what he costs. Yeah, he is expensive. What he gave was almost $100,000 in just doing a one webinar. Which seems like, wait, how does that value out? Oh, it values out. But he said during that one, he was asked specifically by Natalie Frank, the leader of Rising Tide Society, about collaborations. And he said, it is collaborative when you work with people of equal value who value you equally, which is confusing. But people who are on your same professional level or a little above or a little below, because it doesn't hurt to help, right? People out, but you respect each other fully. When respect is not given, he said, then it's a paid job and you should be paid for that work. If you don't feel respected, get paid. Yeah. And I had a hard time with that for a while because there were times I walked off set where I knew I had given my best and I didn't feel respected by the people on it. And that was hard. It's hard as a director and a producer. There are shoots that I don't post because they still hurt. And that's okay because creative is personal and that's how it gets to be. You should love the work you do. But yesterday I posted on my Instagram this image of a model in this gorgeous blue skirt. The model is dear to my heart. Oh, I love her so much. But that work, that shoot was arranged within a week because it was a traveling photographer. And it's still to this day, it's almost 2 years old, it's still one of my favorite pieces of work I have ever done. Yeah, the team, everything, it all mattered.

It does all matter.

Oh, I really like that, you know, the thought of just— yeah, and because I think it addresses a good point because I think we frequently say like, hey, don't do free, or make sure you know you're paying, or, you know, don't, don't be giving special deals to friends. Because, um, that's I think something that a lot of women, especially in the creative fields, really, um, they have a hard time with because they like, they like the work and they like their friends, and it's hard to those hard— yeah, yeah, family, exactly. It's hard to have those hard money conversations. And yet I think I also hear the advice, and you get— you've been giving it to people, of like, well, sometimes you do things for exposure, you do things because of the opportunity, um, and that maybe does come at a little bit of a professional, personal loss in terms of time or money or resources. But I like that he's putting some boundaries on that in terms of if you look at an opportunity and, um, yeah, it's one where it is going to be collaborative and equal then that, that seems like that could be a good fit. Um, but if people are just trying to scam and get, and, you know, pay you nothing for it, um, then you should have your, your red flags should go up.

Yeah. Yeah. And it, it happens all the time. I have seen so many. I daily see a post for a workshop. Workshop is a word that is so abused in our industry because people say, oh, a workshop, a workshop. Well, a workshop should have an educational value. What value are you qualified to give the people attending your workshop? That is something I think that everyone needs to step back and think about. I've had a photographer tell me that she uses, um, styled shoots for workshops so that other people pay for her to work with the vendor she wants to because she can't afford it. I get that she wants to work with those vendors, but you cannot abuse or cheat people like that because then it does leave a bad taste in their mouth and it does ruin an industry. If we can't value each other, if we can't value each other, how are we supposed to expect our customers to? You cannot have that kind of imbalance. And it is a hard way to go because you see those people being successful, or at least they look like they're successful. But social media for me is a tricky place because of how much I love it. But yes, you need content. But yes, you should be posting almost every image from every shoot because it has a purpose, or it should. But you should also not equate someone's creative value with their followers. And for a long time, I didn't even start a professional Instagram because I didn't want to get into that field, but I wanted to show my work and my family was so tired of seeing it. So I was like, okay, I just need to go ahead and do it. And I did. And it was really hard for me because I'm not follower focused and I'm focused on my followers that I have, but not on the number. And it was a while before one of the people in the current industry, professional industry that I idolize, I want to be just like her. In fact, right now she's in New York City walking the Met Gala carpet. I am so impressed with her, but she has like 4,000 or 5,000 followers, 4,000 or 5,000 followers. In our industry, they would tear her apart, but she is the Hollywood Reporter beauty fashion editor. Her name is Carolyn— Carol McLaughlin, and she is fantastic. Oh, she just did Oprah's cover of Hollywood Reporter. I don't know if you got to see that, but I will send it to you later on Instagram. It is divine. It is heaven on earth. And she, she's the one who styled it. She styled it. She helped concept it. Oh, I love her.

All the things. But I love that what you're bringing it back to is that it doesn't— you know, the, the follower count is just one small tiny indicator, and that we need to be you know, thoughtful and step back about that for a little bit.

So their work, see who they are, what have they done. I'm really big into show me your resume, I want to see your experience.

Exactly. Yeah, so, uh, I love all of these, all of these gems. Um, well, I wanted— I warned you that I wanted to hear a little bit about, um, and you mentioned a little bit in top in terms of, you know, you got your legal ducks in a row pretty early on, but what role has legal, especially because you've been involved on the production side, the logistical side, and sometimes that, that means taking care of legal stuff and making sure everything is the way it should be and people are getting credits and rights and we're having good discussion or we have contracts. What can you tell us about that and how important is that on that side of, you know, bringing together a really successful, really successful shoot?

So people sometimes think that signing a contract or an agreement is like a negative on your personal relationship. It is not. There are some people I don't have signed documents with that I have been encouraging them. So if we sign something, I'm totally fine with that. I'm not offended. I actually prefer it because because it lays out our expectations. And we're working on that, getting all of that lined up and ready to go, because in a collaborative industry, it's really hard to get people to sign things where they're like, oh wait, what does that mean? It's like, it's not an abuse for either person, it's an advantage for both. But I think it's interesting how many people want to not hold people to their contracts at all. They're like, oh yeah, that doesn't matter. And I'm like, um, If they sign a contract, shouldn't they expect the contract to be upheld? Like, it's a respect line for people who abuse it, but if you don't abuse it, you're just fine. And I think that having legal is really important. One of the big things I'm passionate about is having everyone licensed. I work with licensed professionals. If you aren't— don't have a website, you aren't ready to have an Instagram for your particular skill set, That's fine. Are you licensed? That's what matters. I think it matters all the way around. In Utah especially, we are having an issue where locations are starting to require licenses for, um, campaigns or commercial work out on like the Salt Flats or Albion Flats or all the state parks require it. The national parks require it, but people don't bother to get a permit. But if they get pulled over or if they get stopped, it definitely matters. Legal matters. Legal shows to me that it— you've taken the actual care to do the research into your position, to your role, and do your duty. Because paying taxes, paying for the fees, paying for the platforms— people who do that, they are more respectful to everyone in the industry. You can tell almost instantly. But you also have wider access. It's more freedoms. It's just part of the process. I definitely think that that's one of the most important things that you can possibly do is completely be, you know, legal. Yeah, it is not hard to do either. No, it is not hard. Utah makes it very easy. I know Idaho does. California is a breeze. But do it. It is so important. Don't abuse the system. You can't write off every time you decide to have a business lunch. Maybe you can, but I don't.

But it should be ordinary and reasonable business expenses. Yes, but, um, but yeah, totally. Amen. Preach. All, all the things.

There are tools out there to help you. There are tools. You're one of them, a big tool for me especially. Um, but there are apps on your phone to track your mileage when it's business versus personal. It's so easy now.

You can get things to scan your receipts, like, yeah.

Instantly into your Google Docs. Oh, I love it.

Yeah.

Yeah. But one of the big things that we have that I deal with especially, and I have vented to you about, is copyright. And we think that in our digital world, social media, no big deal. We'll post any image we want from Pinterest. Not a big deal. I'll just cite Pinterest.

Yeah. Sharing is caring. It's for exposure.

Yeah.

It's like, but it's not. I'm like, you have to actually— the English nerd comes out in me where it's cite your sources, cite your sources. Where did you get that image? But also, whose image is it? Because that is where their value is. People give away thousands and thousands of dollars of creative work to get the exposure. If you're not giving them the exposure, you're stealing. And that is Really blatant but really important. Instagram and their terms of service. If you are a user on Instagram as a creative or as a business owner and you have not read those terms of service, what are you doing? They will define that right out front for you. They will tell you what is required. If you have questions about people using your items without your permission, then they will take a look at it. They'll help you out. And now it's getting easier and easier to report those as just a nudge. Of like, hey, I have a question, and their legal team will take a look at it. But it is so important. And for me, with publications and with my productions, I actually am a nerd and will follow everyone and check when, when I get tagged in an image, I will like it. But if I don't have an immediate comment, I always check to make sure if you have tagged everyone. And there is a trend right now where people will list them in the caption. Or, oh, we'll list the people that are viewed in this image. So like if the photographer is posting a picture of like flowers at a set, they'll tag the florist. And I'm like, hmm, so always do the production core and then everybody else as much as possible. And when in doubt, tag, literally. But if you have to not mention them in the caption, make sure they're mentioned when you tap the image. Tapping the image and tagging them. Actually gives them full credit and puts it in their tagged image stream. That is actually where they count copyright infringement on social media, is if it shows up as theirs. That's ownership rights. We have a few publications that don't do it in Utah, and it is not great. Not okay. That there will be issues later on. But oh, and honestly, people can be dramatic about it, but you don't have to be. You can message them and just say, hey, I think you forgot to tag me. Style Me Pretty actually didn't tag my hair artist for the Maggie Cetero campaign. And I was like, hey, do you mind tagging her? And they were like, oh yeah, we'll fix that. They fixed it. It was over. Do I hate them? No. Do I love them? Absolutely. But my hair artist deserves credit. Credit is everything.

Yeah, exactly. Especially when that's— that was the whole point, is that, you know, it was something and that they, they gave their time and their talents and whatnot. And then especially if it's going to be concept or be full-blown editorial. Um, yeah, you need to make sure and, and be crossing all those T's for sure. Um, and can you speak—

there are campaigns where I sell credit, where we do give up what's called copyright credit, but we get paid for it, and that is expensive. You think copyright is inexpensive? You're wrong. It is a lot.

Yeah, exactly. And that's what, like, you know, to explain to people what full— that's the difference between editorial versus like doing commercial photography is normally the, the photographer is not claiming to have credit or rights. Um, there's a little bit of a trend now just because of the social media pressure that people, or some photographers, still want to get credit, but that's, that's a new phenomenon.

Yeah, right. And some brands like to give their photographers credit because they like to be known with those photographers, or like certain publications, they want it to be known who shot what because it's just the fashion credit of it, but that's completely different and on their own scale. But I also can post it, so no matter what, if they click that image, someone will always be tagged. They will always put the producer and director on it no matter what, and I will always 100% tag every single person I work with. And that is whether or not I still have positive relationships with them or still do work with them. They get the credit for their work, bar none, end of story.

Um, something I— that I just saw, you know, heard coming up recently was that some wedding venues now are getting very specific that in their contracts— I had someone ask me about this— that they required, um, that they, um, that like they had to be given credit on there and that they were claiming to own all the images that happened from the wedding, which I thought was ridiculous. But I can't imagine any of the other vendors, and I'm sure that the other vendors that are involved with the wedding are not aware of this. So I mean, I would— it'd be crazy to see this actually play out, but, um, But I think it's really interesting just to see.

I want to know if a photographer knows if a bride signs a contract like that, because the owner, the only owner of an image ever, like wedding, campaign, editorial, styled shoot, concept shoot, it doesn't matter. The person who owns it is the photographer. End of story. You pay for ownership. And I mean, when you pay for those RAWs, it is— you are not paying cheap.

Stop.

You pay everything. Magazines don't even pay for them. They don't. That's the point of what you do to submit. I think people submit without giving all information to their people as well, but that's completely different. But ownership rights, yeah, venues definitely don't require them. I am always impressed though, and I do encourage other vendors when— if they feel like they've been used a lot in styled shoots or concept shoots or editorials to draw up a release form for their creative. And they can say, well, I want this many images back, or I need you to show at least this image. Now, me as a producer, I don't really have issues with any of my creatives because they know they're getting the most content back they've ever received. So they don't really care whether or not all those images go to publication or get used. They all have, without like any standard being set, at least 6 to 10 images, no matter what. I have had creatives who will like call me afterward and be like crying on the phone. I have never gotten back more than one usable image. And I'm like, then that's a problem. But you are allowed to say, like if you're a bridal gown designer, you can say I need a front and back. Exactly. Yeah, but as a producer, I do communicate with most of them. Um, there's a florist local who actually lives quite close to me, and I— she's very particular in her content, and I appreciate that about her because she knows what she wants. And I will ask her, with this particular bouquet or this kind of table set, like, arrangement centerpiece, what are you looking for? Where's the front? Where's the back? What would you like to see? And honestly, sometimes they help in how I pose the floral. Yeah. So I'm pretty happy.

Yeah, but that's really thoughtful of you. And I mean, that speaks why you can have such good working relationships with people. Again, is because you're being thoughtful about what they need out of the relationship. And is it collaborative?

Is it fair?

Is it respectful of everyone else who's involved with the process?

Yeah, has everyone been of value? There are times when certain vendors get more than others, and that does happen just based on like their what they do, but I always make sure, even if I have to take extra shots, everyone gets represented equally. And that's just important to me on a personal level. I don't like to feel used. I don't want anyone to feel used. If someone feels used, I want them to say it to me and then we resolve the issue.

Exactly, yeah, upfront. Okay, and then you have a listicle for us about some of the top items that you should have in your styling kit.

Yes, on— even if you're a wedding photographer, there are essentials that you need to have to do flat lays. I love flat lays. Details make the design is like my life. So I thought of 10 items that I could not live without, whether you're on a production set or a real wedding. I have them in a tackle box or in some canvas bags sometimes. But number 1 is to always have a matte board of some form, and it either can be just a piece of fabric. I actually found lately that like table placemats work out really well if they're linen, um, because they're great size. So you don't have to pay for the expensive. If you can't pay a lot, that's completely fine. You don't have to. But Olive Oak Mat is amazing, and there are some vendors tagged on my Instagram that are phenomenal for styling. So there are a lot of them. But even just a square of fabric, also use a background that you have local. Is there a floor at your wedding that is like marble? Use that, why not? Or if it's industrial, go ahead and use cement. I have seen that look amazing before. The second item is ribbon. We have so many ribbon vendors out there, HoneySilk, Tono and Co. Go crazy, but start with some neutrals that will match everything and build from there. HoneySilk does a scrap bag, and when they are available, grab them fast. They are worth every penny. They're like $25, and I have used them all shapes and sizes in like everything. They're amazing. A ring box is really important. The Mrs. Ring Box is going to be the most popular one that pops up. They're pretty expensive, so there actually is a like $6 or $7 one on Amazon that I actually have a like I have a few of them. They look amazing. They're the right size. They're in different shapes. They're great. You don't have to spend a lot to do a lot. And one thing that is odd on my list is a floral frog. Yeah, I know that's odd. It's not a literal frog. It is, um, it helps you prop up floral better so you can actually—

yes, I was gonna say, I know that one because my mom has done floral arrangements. Her mom taught her how.

So yeah, I had a florist bring, um, her chicken wire that she'll put in the bouquet she just bent like a round circle for me, and that worked as my floral frog for the day. It was amazing. But they prop up your floral towards the lens. It makes everything look fresh, clean, and really precise, and avoid weird shadows. Dental floss is essential. Dental floss can be used to help you put rings together— excuse me— but also to stand them up. The wax on it is also sticky sometimes, but just be careful what you're putting that on. Um, but yeah, dental floss. You don't need it scented, you don't need to taste like anything, just white basic. It's easy. Um, pins, and this is stick pins, safety pins, and bobby pins. You can use them to help things lay down flat, you can use them to help connect things, but bobby pins actually work really well with boutonnieres and their floral. Um, acrylic blocks, you can get them on Amazon for really cheap, but Sourced Co is one place that is amazing that they carry a kit, and you use them to prop up anything on your flat lay. You do not want your flat lay to be entirely flat. You need it to show some dimension, and they're really, really helpful for that, especially because they help with lighting too. Stamps are essential. Um, use them to match whatever invitation you're doing. And then poster tack or double-stick tape. And our last item is a small dish. The small dish can be used for anything. Go to DIY, look up saucers. Literally, I've gotten some for 10 to 15 cents. It's not a big deal if you need a ceramic dish from somewhere. Also, give me a call. I have like flat ramekins like crazy. I literally do. But if you have an— if you're selling an invitation, make sure you get two. And that is my pro tip, is Always have 2 invitation sets.

So, so good. Oh, I love all these tips. And I mean, honestly, they're useful whether you're, whether you're in, you're in the wedding industry, or even if you're not, even if you're just looking at a business owner and you're trying to be more thoughtful about how you're going to style your own things for your own brand, you know, I mean, I think it's so, yeah, so great to be more thoughtful and to be more adventurous and how you're going to do, you know, maybe do your own photography or your own flat lays.

Never discount those details. And in publications, they will not accept a wedding or shoot an editorial about bridal or even an event without an invitation, flatly.

So good to know. Okay, I literally would not have known that.

Send every single one. I love it. I love trying out the new things. I have invitation designers sending me stuff from like samples from all over the country, and I have a couple from England. I love it. I will do samples all day. It's kind of my zen.

Here's your zen thing. So, um, and before you go, I wanted you to mention a little bit about— because you still do quite a bit in the social media side of stuff. So, and we were talking a little bit before we started recording, um, and I, I think that's actually where I met you, is I went to a Rising Tide Society meeting and you were kind of giving the dish on Instagram and talking about all these tips and just had so many great nuggets for people. So What are you seeing working for people on Instagram? What do you wish that people would do more of? What do you wish that people would maybe do less of?

Ooh, what a long list. Well, on Instagram I'm seeing a lot of people really concerned about the amount of followers and the amount of their engagement. What one thing I would tell people that I've had to remind people about is this is the purpose of Instagram, even in its origin way back in the day, is that it is a creative's platform to engage with their audience. There was a timeframe where it was taken over and there was a large amount of influencers who are just as creative as people. They get a lot of flack, but they don't get a lot of credit. But there was a lot of time where it was so you could use hashtags and certain tactics to find better rankings and feeds. But the algorithm, which is not bad, is a good thing. Helps that the user is in more control. So if I find like you've dropped out of my feed of the top like 5 posts or something, I go and I make sure I've liked everything and engaged on things. Are there stories I should have responded to? Because as a user, the people I want to see in my feed, I see in my feed. The people I don't engage with, I don't engage with, which is a little scary as a business owner. It can be like, well, what control do I have over this experience? The answer is not much. And for that, my tip is this, is check your hashtags. Are they in your first comment on your post? Well, that's one of the first things that the algorithm discounts. Do not look at that. Put them in your caption. If you need help with formatting, DM me. I can help you format your post. That's fine. But do some research. The people who are successful, what hashtags are they using? Create your own hashtag list. And then rotate. I was working with someone today who was telling me that they did the research over a week or two and found a bunch of hashtags, sorted them into a different daily schedule, and that curated personal research hashtag list has brought her so many new followers. Mm-hmm. It works. Ask questions, be invested in your platform. If you are not getting the engagement you want, One of my first questions is going to be, how often do you engage? Are you investing in your followers?

Do you know? It's supposed to be social. It's a social media platform, so be social.

The tool— you're the person, their person. Would you go to Relief Society— a Relief Society? Do you like that I just outed myself? I am LDS. It happens. Would you go to like a community event though and expect everyone to come up to you and you not go up to anybody? Like, how is that gonna be effective? Give a little to get a little, and usually get a lot. The other thing I would say is never let your Instagram story run dry. And if that means you have to share something like a quote, if you don't want your face on there, that's totally fine. You don't have to have your face on there. There are apps for that. Unfold, use it. It's free. Also, Planoly has stories now, which is fantastic. And Canva has stories to help you format. Love it. But don't let your story run dry. I've had it happen before and you just get better engagement, but you need to care. It's also a little scary because they just did a survey where people are not scrolling down anymore in their feeds, which is why Instagram has been experimenting with the sideswipe for a feed. They're just finding people are not using that physical tactic of going down a feed anymore. And if they don't go down the first 4 or 5 posts, then it doesn't really matter. But those posts are ranked based on what they want to see, not what you want them to see. So what story, what time do you post on your feed? Who cares? It doesn't matter. Be intentional about what you have to say. So actually invest in your people. That's what I would say.

That's what you would say. I think those are all really great advice, you know, and we were saying, you know, there's a lot of tools you can use out there, but, um, You know, don't be too in love with the tools and the gimmicks and, you know, really be thinking about, again, what's the story, what's the content behind it, and then just find something that works.

Yeah, honestly, fall back in love with your feed. Don't— if you're looking at it too clinically, you're looking at it way too clinically. That is the truth. I would also say post different images by each other, and if you need a breakup of your images, then post something clean. Everyone loves white. I don't know why everyone loves white. Sometimes it's not my favorite. But a blush quote then. It depends on your industry, but do something plain and basic. And also just be true to yourself. If you're a dork, be a dork about it and enjoy it.

Exactly.

You do you. Yeah. Jenna Kutcher, she loves grilled cheese sandwiches. And I have met her and we've talked for like 20 minutes about grilled cheese sandwiches.

So yeah, she does. She mentions it because I listened to her podcast too. And it is, it's like one of her quirky things, but a thing.

I love that though. Alice, um, from Alice Shoots People, she wears hats. And literally when I met her the first time, I was like, you always wear hats. And she laughed and she was like, I don't. That's the best part is I don't always wear hats. And I'm like, well, you always talk about it. And me, I'm in love with shoes. I won't wear them all, man. Give me all the shoes.

All the shoes. Everyone's got their thing. So No, I think that's good. You know, to make, just make it playful and make it fun. That reminds me a lot of the—

What's that?

Is pink one of your favorite colors?

It is.

I love pink.

See, that's why it's all over my feed.

I love that though. Be true to you. I think that's so important. If you can't, if you find yourself lost in your feed, that's the problem.

Yeah. And yes, do you, does that, is that a traditional lawyer legal color? No, it's not. But you'll note that I don't have a lot of eagles or scales of justice or leather-bound books because that's not the kind of attorney I am. And, you know, I think maybe sometimes some male— some of my male clients might be a bit turned off by the pink, but if they are and they're not, you know, creative guys, then they're probably not a really good fit for me anyway.

But I mean, come on, like, it's just the color, but it's also just kind of your vibrant personality. I love that. Um, also now I really want to— I really want to find you a scales of justice. I think that could be a really fun styling piece. I love it.

All the things, guys. Yeah, let your personality come out. Well, thanks so much for being on here, Rebecca. As well, tell people where they can find you if they want to connect with you and get any of your help, you know, whether it's with their social media or they need some help creatively and would love to have you try to help them out and to breathe some life and some vision and kind of help some of these creative efforts come, you know, come to pass and actually come to life in all the ways that you can do. Where can people connect with you?

So the easiest place is my Instagram because I'm a nerd like that and I love it. It is @RebeccaM as in Mary dot creative and you can DM me. I have my DM open. My email is really basic. It's just RebeccaMcreative@gmail.com. You can also find me on Pinterest. My Pinterest boards are fun. I love them.

I bet you, I bet you kill it on Pinterest.

I— so my personal one I think is my preference, but my professional one is— oh, it is. I went and visited Pinterest last August to make sure I was doing it right, and yeah, oh, I love it.

So, and you love it, and, and moral of the story is you probably are, you're doing it right.

Well, thank you, but I love all the things. So I am all about building relationships and engaging. My Facebook page is fun. I just think that People should come and say, hey, why not? Let's be friends. Connect with you. I feel like my 5-year-old— my almost 5-year-old niece that way is, can we be best friends?

Okay, perfect. And yeah, and everyone would be better in the industry if they, if they took that more to heart. So, well, thanks so much for joining us today and sharing your wisdom.

Um, it was great to have you. Thank you for having me. This was so much fun.

Well, thank you, friends, for tuning in, and I hope that you enjoyed that wonderful episode with Rebecca. Um, you know, to be perfectly honest, I recorded this, um, months and months and months ago, um, an embarrassing amount of time ago actually. But I just— I sat on it. It was no fault of Rebecca, it was totally on me in terms of getting it out. And I know that it's a little bit tough, especially if you're in the event industry, especially I know if you're in bridal and weddings, um, just because we're still in the midst of COVID-19. But regardless of what you have on your calendar booked right now and where things are looking. Um, I think that you'll get a lot of good nuggets out of this episode of things that you can be working on to plan and prepare and think of and trying to kind of get your house in order and maybe take some of that time to do that right now. If you are interested in getting your business legit and what that might look like depending on where you are on your business journey, and make sure you are connecting with me and following me on Instagram. Remember, I'm @BrittanyRattelle on there. That's B-R-I-T-T-A-N-Y-R-A-T-E-L-L-E. Also make sure that you've signed up for my email list. I have my free legal checklist, that's my best-selling freebie— best-selling, we'll use that term loosely because it's free, guys— but my most downloaded resource that I have, and it's kind of the one-page power checklist for how you can get your business legit. And you can find that at BrittanyRettell.com/checklist. You'll also find the link in the show notes. And reminder that when you get on that, you get on my email list, and I only send emails out when I have goodies for you guys when I have useful tips about building your business, about the business behind your business, and how to make sure that I can help you with that. So, and I also have a sale coming up with my creative contracts. And so if you know that you— it's time and you've been meaning to get some of that stuff legit, but you'd really like to do it and get a good deal at the same time, I'm gonna be having a special birthday sale in May. So stay tuned for that.. So make sure you're following me on Instagram and sign up for my email so that you don't miss any of that goodness. Thanks so much, and I'll see you guys next week.