Law and Wit Episode 50: Turning influence into a Business with Brand Strategist Michelle Gifford - 50

This is Law and Wit, episode 50, Turning Influence into a Business with brand strategist Michelle Gifford. Welcome to Law and Wit, creative counsel for entrepreneurs. I'm your host, Brittany Rettell, mother of 4, entrepreneur, naptime lawyer, and attorney for creative entrepreneurs. I'm here to share inspiration and action so that you can tackle your business blocks and confidently own your business in every sense of the word. Thank you so much for being here. Hello listeners, and welcome back to Law and Wit. I'm so grateful to have you guys here to listen. Well, I want to introduce quickly our guest, and then we're going to get right into the episode because we've got so much goodness and y'all don't have time for anything less than that. So our guest today is the one and only Michelle Gifford, and she is a brand strategist and business teacher who specializes in launching courses and content management systems for influencers. She shares her business tips, strategies, and contagious laughter, which you'll hear some of today because Michelle's great and we have a fun time together, on her own Michelle Gifford Podcast, and is a nationally recognized photographer and a coveted main stage speaker who shared the stage with the likes Rachel Hollis and Nicole Walters, both, uh, wonderful ladies that I love to listen to who also have great podcasts in their own right. Michelle lives in Riverside, California with her 5 kids and handsome husband. So we are so excited to have her on today. So let's get to the episode. Hello everybody and welcome back to Lawn Wit. I am so excited to introduce our guest today and to have her on. She is the one and the only, the incomparable bestie that I love to giggle with at the back row of conferences, Michelle Gifford.

That is the truth.

Is that not the best intro ever for who you are and captures your personality? It is.

Oh my goodness, I have made most of my best friends from snickering in the back row. So I— it's not because I can't do two things at once. I have to listen to the speaker and also be making funny comments. So It's okay, it's good.

It's okay, there's room for all of it. And that's, and you know, and we can say that because we also speak at conferences and stuff, so we know like there's no disrespect to the person doing their thing. We just also, also like to talk and connect with people, and so we have to make room for both.

That's exactly right. And I love the snicker in the back when I'm speaking as well, as well as the front row cheerleader in the front. So we need us all, right? All the way around.

Well, you know, I gave a little bit of information about Michelle beforehand, but I'd love to kind of hear in your own words, tell us a little bit about your business kind of origin story about where you got started and, uh, you know, the arc that's, that's brought you to what you're doing today.

Yeah, perfect. So I got started, well, a long time ago. It's like 13 years ago this month, which is pretty crazy. So I graduated from college and worked as, um, worked in a city. I got into medical school, and so, um, we— I quit my job, which was great, and I was super pregnant. I was 6 months pregnant. We moved to Arizona when it was super hot. I was miserable and alone, and he always gone. And I'm not someone who sits still very much, which is also the problem with being in, like, listening to speakers and why I'm in the back row. So anyway, so I was like, I just didn't— I was like, I've got to do something. I've got to do something. I don't know what it is. And so the first thing I tried was cake decorating. And I started that. It lasted about 2 months, but it's fine. It led me to creating and selling things on Etsy. And I had a successful Etsy shop for a while. And then I moved into photography. Then I had a photography nonprofit, and then that moved me into coaching photographers in business. And then now today I get to help influencers and people with audiences learn how to build email lists and to streamline makeup systems so that you're not just growing an audience, but you're actually growing money, which is fantastic.

Yeah, because they are not one in the same, okay? You know, 100,000 followers does not equal $100,000, and It does not.

And I really found that a lot of people are, are like, a lot of influencers are really great at the influence part. And that's a hard thing to teach, right? Like how to build your influence. And it's, it's so astounding to me, like how well they do it, right? They're just naturally, or, you know, they pick it up along the way that they grow this huge following. But, but there's also all this, this other stuff, this business stuff that if you have it in place and systems created, then you can be building your audience and building a business and making money, which is so great.

Yeah, it reminds me of a quote I just heard of Brendan Burchard on his podcast, The Influencer. He was doing like an influencer series and he said, "An influencer without a business is just a popular person who's busy." It's very true though. And I love that and I was like, "Oh, isn't that the truth?" Like, you know, and if you're— and the other one that I've heard, and I think this was from Sophia, I want to say it's like Nasty Gal or something, she says that if you're not selling your own products, you're missing out. If you're not selling something for yourself, if you can sell things for other people, then why shouldn't you be selling something for you?

Making room for that. Yeah, and that's kind of what I found is a lot of influencers, especially my clients that I work with, they have spent all this time doing, selling big brands and their products and they are just getting a kickback and they're missing out on a whole huge portion, you know, you've already trained your— or conditioned, maybe that's a better word— but you've conditioned your audience to buy and to trust you to buy the product. And they know their audience so well, like they just, they know who they are, they know what they want, they know what they're gonna like, and that is a superpower. And so it's really a shame to not have your own product because you do know them so well, and then the margins are way better when it's your product.

And you get to make all the choices, you know. I mean, yeah, that, that's the truth, like what you said, when you invested in the psychographics so well and have curated this community of people. And, you know, where it's not like, oh, these are just all women who, you know, in between these ages. Like, you know, if we go back to like a traditional, you know, magazine publishing model, someone who read this magazine was maybe between these ages and maybe had some kids or not, but that was probably it. That, you know, they probably didn't know too much more in depth about it. Maybe some socioeconomic, like how much money they made a year. But now we have accounts that are like, no, these women like food, and they like this type of food, and they like to spend this kind of money. These women like to shop at Target. These women are obsessed with Disney and will buy all things here. These women like to throw parties. You know, we've niched down so much, and there's so many wonderful, you know, micro digital media agencies out there, which is really what an influencer is, that it's easy to see the potential for— because you know your audience so well, that you can design and then be able to pitch and be successful in really specific products that are going to solve their problems.

Yep, that's exactly right. And I, and so if you're not thinking about, if you're only thinking about getting more numbers so that you can have brands pay you, I, I would, I would challenge you to just think a little bit broader. Think about what you already do and how you could make that into some, like, a product, whether that's a digital product or a physical product. Like, I would say both if you can, right? So anyway, so I think that that is something that we all kind of need to think about because of the work that you're already doing. You just as well be doing something that's your own and also creates super fans, right? Because, because it's your product experience, how you serve and how you teach. And it also is like, hey, this is— yeah, I've been, I've been sharing these other things with you, but here's something that's me that I want to help. And and serve you in.

Exactly, yeah, definitely. So I mean, you, you know, you explained kind of a little of your stories and you've, you've done lots of different things, you know, from cakes to Etsy to photography, and which is great because it means that you understand people who work in the creative field a lot. You understand people who make products, who, you know, are selling actually a physical product, people who are doing one-on-one client services, you know, you understand all those niches so well. What do you think, or what do you think is hard maybe about when people get started in one of those? What do you see as some of the challenges with maybe either just being a maker and being on Etsy or being like a photographer? What are the things that you keep on seeing again and again as you're counseling and working with your clients?

Yeah, this is a great question, and I do, I think that, like I am a creative, you know, obviously, like I'm doing all sorts of things, But the thing about being creative is that a lot of time you don't value your own creativity, right? And I see that a lot, like especially since I work with women, a lot of them are mostly moms, you know, who are at home and doing this separate gig. And it's a weird place sometimes because you know you're creating it and you need, you want to make money for your family and whatever you're doing creatively, that's the word, and you want to do this, but then you think, well, I'm just making this from my home and so you don't see the value that you're bringing to other people. And so I think the biggest, the biggest thing is underselling yourself and not having confidence in that. And of course, there's the learning curve at the very beginning that you don't charge a ton, but, but to really understand that your time matters, your time is worth money, and your influence is worth money. So that's probably this— there's a hard thing about admitting that you're legit, right? There's the imposter syndrome, there's the like, this isn't a big deal, this is like just a little thing I do on the side, and you try to kind of hide it or you don't feel confident in it, and the reality is—

I'm just a photographer, I just have a little shop, I'm just a— yes, all day.

Yes, all day, all the time.

You've heard me, I've railed against this because I hear it all the time when I get on the phone with people and I'm like, you can be honest with me, you're not, you're doing, you're a business owner, you're doing the real thing, so can we just cut the bull, can we just talk real here? For a second.

But the problem is that if you admit that, then you're admitting a lot of things, okay? And I think that that's the hard thing. One, you're admitting that you're going to do something other than being a mom, and that is a really hard thing. And it's something that I think we all kind of deal with, and we have to deal with it in different ways. And as this is the appropriate time for my 3-year-old to come in.

Okay, so you said, yeah, your first was that you have to admit that you're doing more than being a mom, which comes comes with its own soul-searching existential crisis, you know, identity, all that stuff, all that hard work that you have to do, which is tough, right?

Yeah, it totally is tough.

And I—

and, um, but it's okay, right? Like, you can do it. And I think that we have to really take ownership for what we want our motherhood to look like. And like I always say, only you can receive revelation for your motherhood. Uh, we get really caught up in what everyone thinks about what we're doing, right? What our Aunt Cindy down the street or our neighbor or someone online, like whatever. You've gotta figure out what your motherhood looks like and for me, I mean from the very beginning, I needed something else, creativity. Like I needed to use my creativity in another way and for me it's business, very cool. So I think that you gotta figure that out. That's number one. I think number two is we've got to figure out, and when we say out that this is, that we're in, are doing a business, and we probably have to charge people. And a lot of time we're doing that with people that we know and our friends, and we really feel weird about money and we feel weird about asking. And let me give you just a little bit of a tip with this money thing, because this is something I put into practice as of late. Probably the last year, I've just said, like when dealing with clients, with dealing with family, I will just say out loud to them, we can talk about money, it's like money isn't weird to me. And at the beginning, that was only kind of true.

It was a little fake it till you make it.

But it works, right? If you say out loud over and over again, like I'm not weird when I talk about money. If you just like keep saying that out loud, And then you condition your relationships so it's like, oh, Michelle, we can talk about money and it's not personal, it's just like what it is. Then it's conditioning your business relationships, your family relationships, and it's conditioning yourself to accept money for whatever you're doing. If not, it's just a hobby, my friends, just a hobby. And I don't have time for many hobbies around here.

No, and to think about it, yeah, I mean, my husband reminds me that if I'm not good about turning on my thing to charge someone, you know, when I— after I finished a phone call. And he's like, hey, did you log that phone call that you had with someone? And I'm like, uh, he's like, look, he's like, if you're not charging them, then that's just a really crappy hobby because you're just— you're gonna go review a contract. And it's just really— and it's— I'm like, that's true, it is. It's a pretty depressing hobby to have in the whole panoply of things you can choose to do with your time.

So yeah, that's exactly right. And we gotta really own up to that and realize that if you're saying yes to this free stuff, you're saying no to other stuff. You know, a lot of people say that And that's true.

Essentialism at its best. You know, go Greg McKeown all day, every day. Yep.

Yep, that's exactly right. So we've got to really own up to that. And so, but I think there's an upside. Not I think, I know there's an upside to when you have to start treating it like an actual business. So that's where my friend Brittany Rettell comes into play, right? Where you can totally get legit with Brit, my friends. Hashtag that up.

I know, hashtag. We're making it a thing, okay? It's not like fetch. It's actually going to happen, guys.

But the reality is though, like when you start taking your business seriously, then you can set aside time to when you're actually doing your business. You can get legal, you can outsource, find people who can help you with your business, and you can make it a real thing. And there's a beautiful freedom in that because suddenly you've said, I don't care what everyone else thinks about me. Yes, I am starting and growing this business, And yes, I am accepting money. Yes. And that's when your business actually grows.

Yeah, so true. And it's scary because that means that you have to put yourself out there. It means that you have to walk into the arena and know that people are gonna look at you. Now they're gonna be seeing your posts and you, you have to give up the freedom or the control that you have of how other people are gonna react to you in this way because you can no longer manage that part of the relationship. You just have to let it go. You have to be total Elsa.

But just like Elsa, there's this time of starting a business where you don't wanna let it go, right? Like you just wanna like put yourself, like every time something else, I did not mean to make, to like draw out this analogy of Frozen, but here we go. But I just think that there are always these times, like especially when you're making big business changes or any kind of change, whether you're beginning or just like transitioning, 'cause let's just face it, we're always transitioning, and Once you make that decision, that big ice monster is gonna come in. No, I guess he's not mean to Elsa, but you know, like you just want to separate. You're suddenly like, do I really want to do this? Like, do I really want to put myself out there? And just know that that's gonna happen and accept it and make it a part of you and just say, you know what, this is gonna happen, but my dreams, my goals are bigger than this, right? It's bigger than that person with this dumb opinion. Like it's bigger than whatever. And, and also, I just think you have to know that your impact, the people that you can help and serve, that potential has to be bigger than the possibility that someone might say something bad about you.

Ooh, I love that, Michelle. Like, if you put the focus back on who you're trying to serve, and when those moments you feel the doubt creeping in, the imposter syndrome, the negative voice in your head, or whether it's imagined or it's real, you know, it's being magnified by something that you're reading or hearing. But if you quiet that down and focus on who am I trying to help here, and is that potential an opportunity? And somewhat, you know, a lot of people, we would say that obligation to help and to serve in the way that you feel called to serve has to be bigger than all of that.

Yes. And if you focus on that, like, that's actually— it's just a matter of a change of focus. Right? If you're focusing and well, then it kind of is like, well, that dumb comment that someone made doesn't matter. And believe me, I just need to tell you, I've had a year of dumb comments. Like, just know that I have— like, like, I from the bottom of my heart empathize with you. I've had so many things this year, like, said to me, and it's wonderful. Now I'm like, I— you just, at some point, you have to say, I can't, like, I can't do that, and it doesn't matter, and move on.

Yeah, and just rise above it all. Yep, easy to say, hard to do.

Yep, exactly.

Easy to say, hard to do. Um, okay, I love this all, this stuff. I think this stuff is so important, and I think it's, um, it's not— maybe not what gets the clickbait in terms of business and people working on their business, but I think that the mindset, especially I think this is a pernicious thing for women. It has to be something that we address, that we talk about, that we realize there's an elephant in the room, especially with regards to how we talk about money and about using money and creating value and exchanging value and talking about that and being okay that we're doing great things and we can share that with others and it doesn't have to mean anything about us that we don't want it to mean about us.

Yeah, exactly. So yeah, that was good. But do you want to get into some— do you want to get into some business stuff?

Yeah, I want to do. Okay, talk to us, talk to us about the systems, talk to us about the funnel. Funnels and the emails, girl.

Emails are maybe my love language. It's fine. But I love email marketing because of a lot of things. Because I am a mom. Like, let's face it, I have 5 dang kids. I got a lot. There's a lot of us all running around here. And what email marketing and funnels and that kind of stuff, systems do, is it allows me to be here with my kids and still making money and serving in the way that I want to. And so, yeah, can I tell you, I'll tell you.

Yeah, tell us about, because you've done, which is super cool, is that you are in direct sales and tons of people don't know that about you, which I would say, I mean, no, throwing no shade on those of you that are in direct sales, but you know, there's some people who, let's face it, they start selling and like everyone is like hit the floor, they are coming at us with their parties and their gimmicks and their free facials and whatnot and they get really nervous.

Oh yeah, that's why I was like, should I even say this? I don't know if I should say this out loud. But yeah, like 2 and a half years ago, I decided I wanted to see if like this whole email marketing system, like, 'cause here's the thing, if you have email, if you have a great email funnel, you can get that traffic in different ways, right? So you can get traffic to that funnel, paid traffic, so there's 3 ways, paid traffic, organic traffic, which is like Google, Pinterest, YouTube, just, you know, coming in 'cause people are searching, and then you can get community traffic, and this is through like Instagram, the traffic that you are creating with your community. And so I am not, this is not, I'm not a serial direct sales kind of person. I kind of was against it 'cause I'm a business, I've seen like how it can be good and bad, but I wanted to do an experiment, so I wanted to see if I could join an MLM and, or a direct sales company, and only do it with email marketing, blogging, and Pinterest, okay, just those 3 things. Could I build a successful business that way? The rules, I had rules. The rules were that I wasn't gonna do anything on my Instagram, I wasn't going to do an in-house party, I wasn't going to ask friends or family, okay? So those are my rules, I just wanted to see if it worked. So that was 2 and a half years later. Within the first year of just doing blogging, Pinterest, and email marketing, just those 3 things, I did it along with my sister-in-law, but we were top in sales in the company, one in like 35. We were top in recruits. I wasn't even asking people to join, but they were finding me through Google and Pinterest, and I think top 55 or something, I don't know, but we were the top in both of them, and we make thousands of dollars each month, still not talking to anyone. You know, we help them, but it's all through this email system, and so To me, that has been like a really fun experiment, because I've been able to prove that if, I'm sorry, but let's just say it, like if I can make money without indirect sales, without actually talking to people, this is a beautiful thing.

Yeah, there's hope for all of us. Yeah. And I just love that you, I mean, you treated it as an experiment, you created your own rules, and in the process, not only have you turned it into a profitable business that's worth your time and effort, but it's also giving you a lot of good feedback in terms of what's working, what's not working, and how do you replicate this system with different businesses and different models.

Yeah, right. So, so I took that experiment and now it's what I do is I help influencers or other people who hire me to create this system in their current business that's not about direct sales. But, but that was actually the whole point of the thing, that if If I can work here, you know, then I can make this work anywhere. And so it was a good experiment, really fun. But the reality is, is this can work for you. And I know a lot of people have an email list or they have like a newsletter. And I want to first tell you that if you're— this is my first of many tips, just kidding. But I'm just gonna tell you, if you have a button that says join my newsletter on your website, then you are missing out on so many people joining your email list.

That is— Nobody, nobody wants to join your newsletter. They don't care about your newsletter. No, they want, they want a freebie, they want a guide, they want a cheat sheet, they want instructions, they want, you know, swipe file, something.

They want something. So, so if you are— have built an email list or thinking about it, that is the first step, is to take that newsletter button off and offer them something great in exchange for their email. And then I know like a lot of people want you to do like this whole welcome sequence, which I do, but I believe the welcome sequence sells products, and the re— because I believe that one of my best ways to serve is through my products. Like the things that I create are really great trainings, right? And I hope you believe in your products enough to know that. So I don't want someone, because I'm not an influencer, right? I don't want you to just get to know me. Although you should, I'm so fun. But like, I want you to—

I'm really great, hair flip, hair flip.

But also, but also, like, but the reality is, is my best service is to the products I create and the services I provide. And I believe that's true about you, is that, and that should be true about you, that you've created these products or sell these products because another deeper way for you to serve. And so with your welcome sequence, I, I don't want you to just— it can't be just a get-to-know-you sequence, but it's like, get to know me and how I can serve you through my products.

Yeah, which I'm sure would kind of vary how— depends on how much of a personal brand you are, you know, and how, how does your story and your experience relate to what you're selling, you know. Because some people, you know, if you've set yourself up as the expert, or here's why you want to buy my products is because this this is part of my story and what I did, then that, you know, you're gonna need to go into that background. But that may not be, not everyone needs to know, you know, your, yeah, your Spider-Man story, if that's not relevant to what you're offering them.

I wanna know your Spider-Man story. No, but I, but no, no, I'm not saying, I don't want you with your welcome sequence to be sell, sell, sell, but it is exactly what you said, is your story, because your story of what you do should really lead people to what you sell. So like your backstory probably has something to do with your product. And even if you are an influencer, I work, you know, with a bunch of influencers, like are there specific products that you talk about a lot on your, on a blog post that really bring in a bunch of income for you? Cool, use those affiliate links in your, in your welcome page. As a way to serve, but also as a way to get people to purchase the products that you love the most. Because like, if I buy a product from— because of someone's recommendation, then I love you more, right? If I love it. And so it's actually just another way to serve.

Yeah, awesome. Okay, so you suggest we need to have that freebie, that lead magnet up, you know. And so if we have a boring button that's just saying subscribe to my list, ain't nobody taking action on that. We can do better. So Make sure we have a welcome sequence that is serving value and not just a travel log or, hey, look at me, aren't I interesting? Like, you're not a Kardashian, this is not Star Wars, we're not interested in your story, you know, if it's not relative to what we're talking about, you know.

Well, yeah, exactly. So your whole welcome sequence should be, should be about how you serve them. Okay, so for example, if if you have a podcast, then like maybe introduce like why you started this podcast. Like we can talk about you. Should we talk about you, Brittany? Let's talk about you. But like, you know, like, I'll take some free coaching.

Yeah, for sure. Sign me up for that.

No, but, but you know, like if you have your top episodes that you know people would be interested, then absolutely you should share that and say, hey, um, I have these great podcasts and you should listen to this one, this one, this one, because I know you have this problem, this problem, this problem, because you know your audience so well. Well, right? Like most people that come to me have, are wondering about social media and do they, you know, whatever. And then you could, um, you could give it to, you could point it to your podcast with Ana, right? From Ana's the Worst.

All about social media. Yeah.

Using it.

Gotcha.

And so you can think about your audience and the people who are signing up. You know, this all depends on what your lead magnet is, because that will depend on the kind of people that say yes to that lead magnet. And then, And then you say, okay, that person is wondering about social media. That person is wondering about email marketing. That person is wondering about— so you can say, hey, I'm so glad that you're here. This, um, I'm Brittany, lawyer for creatives, working with creatives. I found that these are the top 5 problems that people face, and I have the best resources for you, right? So then you can list your top 5 podcasts that answer the top 5 problems that those— that person is going to create, right? And that's like, oh my gosh, this is fantastic. And then you can keep going into that, into your welcome sequence/sales funnel, but always serving and always pointing them in a direction that serves them more.

Gotcha. That makes sense. That makes a lot of sense. So, and then in terms of, you know, after kind of whatever your welcome is, we have a more regular— do you suggest that people try to do that once a week email, or can it be, you know, more like a couple times a month, or does this depend on kind of what your content creation cycle is?

Yeah, I think it depends, but you hit the nail on the head with the content creation part, right? I really think that we also need to be creating consistent quality content. And so if you're only once a month, then what are you going to email out to people? Is it something of value? Like, don't just email just to email. Don't do it just to check off a list. I would say that you need to, always, always be adding value. Always. So if you are creating a podcast once a week, then that makes it a really easy yes to let's email once a week because you could, like, from this episode, take 3 great things that you learned about from, from this conversation. There's going to be so many.

Oh, there's going to be so many gems, obviously. So we're going to be flush with content.

It's just going to be so great anyway. But you could take 3 things, say this, Here is some email stats for you, whatever, and say if you want the whole conversation, come on over to the podcast, right? So if you're creating consistent content, then create consistent content with your email list as well because you can spread it around, spread around that great content.

Spread that love around, so awesome. No, I love that. And then in terms of interacting, if people are finding that they're, you know, where they like to hang out is on other platforms. If people, you know, they like Instagram, for example, that's a lot, you know, it's pretty probably the most, the top one for our people that, you know, that we work with and serve. Um, how should they be tying in their Instagram back to their email and vice versa? How can those support each other?

I love this, um, because I think that this is a really missed opportunity. Something I see so many times is that we, especially with people who have that elusive, evasive swipe up feature.

You're almost there, girl. You are like, you're gonna make it by before we hit our next decade. Me, probably not so much. I have that on my goal on the wall, and unless you have 6,000 friends in your pocket, it's probably not gonna happen.

Well, we'll see what we can do. So, yeah, but the But a lot aren't even talking about their freebie or their irresistible lead magnet. Like they're not talking about it. Like what if you just said once a week, you said, I'm going to talk about this. And it could be in stories. Like it doesn't have to be a whole Instagram post, but like what if you just talked about it?

Because that's revolutionary. But yeah, I don't talk about mine. I have a free legal checklist, but I don't ever think to talk about it because I just assume everyone's already heard. But like looking at my download numbers, obviously they haven't because I mean, it's popular, but it's not that popular, you know.

Well, and then also like with you, when you go— because you go on your lives all the time, once a week, and answer questions. That should be your call to action every week.

I do, do. I do say it on my lives. I am good. When I close out my lives, I say get my legal checklist and listen to my podcast. But, um, but yeah, I still should be doing it in my stories because there's a lot of people who don't watch my lives. Or don't listen to the whole thing. You know, they get their answer question and they bounce, so.

Yeah, so just think of what you're already doing and put it in your schedule. 'Cause not everyone hears it. It takes 7 times for someone to act on it too. I had a client who like didn't have really an opt-in, and so I created one, and she talked about it like once and got like 5,000 subscribers. Like, you know, like where you're just like, You're just missing on this really beautiful opportunity to serve your people through email and to have that with your products and when you're ready to sell things. And really it's just a matter of like actually talking about it.

You just gotta do the work. You just gotta talk about the thing.

Well, it's not even that hard, right? Like on Insta Stories, like you should just be like, hey, oh my gosh, I don't know if I've talked about this week. If you're sharing some kind of, like with you, like you always share like the up-to-date legal things, right, that are happening and be like, oh my gosh, is your business up to date? Here's my checklist. Like it should feel pretty natural because it should really serve the audience that you're serving.

Yeah, for sure. So I love that. When you're planning, are there tools or software, what do you recommend for people for handling their email marketing or Does it kind of just depend on the best plan and tools, the one that you actually will use to get the job done?

Yeah, use what you have, but the 3 that I recommend right now, they're always changing, but Mailchimp is free, and so, and Mailchimp is free. So there's some things that I don't love about Mailchimp, but it is good to get started, and that's where I started. They just, this is since we talked about direct sales, they don't like people in they don't in their thing allow direct sales to use Mailchimp. So if you are an MLM, you might have to fork out a little bit of money. So ConvertKit is great. That's like, that's middle of the road. It's like $30 a month.

That's what I use. I use ConvertKit, and I probably am not using all of the features, but it was one that I heard about because Pat Flynn loved it, and that's who I started listening to with, you know, online businesses. So that's what I got started with.

Yeah, yeah, I I just like it because it's easy. Like, I think that it's a lot easier to understand. I think Mailchimp is a little bit clunky, but it's— but for free, it's fantastic. I use Ontraport, which is a bigger thing and it's more expensive, but it's also because I have online courses. Ontraport is like one, one system for everything. So it collects payments, it has membership parts, I can build my landing pages, and a bunch of other stuff. So if you're just starting out, I think ConvertKit is a really great place to start, an easy one. So yeah, those are the 3. There's a million of them.

Yeah, so Ontraport's kind of like Kajabi too. Like it's one that you can handle email and then you can build stuff on it as well as a platform, I think.

Yeah, so there's a lot of options, but yeah, those are the ones I love.

But don't be stuck in research mode that you don't actually start out right. Sending and writing some emails and getting them out there.

So just get going.

Come on, just get going. Don't, don't lie. You can't lie to Michelle, okay? You can't make excuses.

Don't tell me you don't have enough time, my friend, because you have— you can do it.

Yeah, you can't tell the mom with 5 kids and who's, who's had 7 different businesses in the last 13 years that you don't have time. She can't, she can't listen to that with a straight face.

I can't. I'll say turn off The Bachelor and get it done.

Oh, oh, too close.

Is that—

was that too harsh? You know what, but somebody, somebody out there needed to hear that, and we love you. But also, um, you know, businesses sometimes are made between, you know, 7 o'clock and 10 o'clock, 11 o'clock every night, and you decide.

That's when my businesses have been made.

Yep, just, just saying. You know, you could be watching The Bachelor or you could go on a trip and take your hubby on a trip to the islands because you are a boss babe and are making lots of money. So I'm just saying, just saying, just saying. Um, on that note, I wanted to get your thoughts on, um, kind of being working mama, mama boss from home, and what's working for you. Because I don't, I don't like the question when people ask me, how do you balance it all? Because I'm like, well, first of all, I don't balance anything. I have rabid squirrels, I have no ducks in a row. Like, this is, this This is my life. But what has worked for you or what has not worked for you?

Well, I think what works for me is that it— to allow myself to always be changing, okay? Because I started this business when I had one little newborn baby, right? Which is a much different thing just sleeping in my arms, right? Then— and I've had 5 kids as I've had a million businesses. And so it just has always changed. And I want you to— that is actually my biggest advice is to assess your current needs because there are— there's so much advice out there that I remember getting and I was like, well, that's great, but my child doesn't sleep like that. Or like, that's wonderful, but I still don't know that you have to be aware of your boundaries. That's my first step is create your boundaries of when you will work and how much you want to work. Create those boundaries and then figure out how you're gonna do that. So is it through nap time? Is it that they get to watch a show every day? It's not the worst thing that's ever happened that they watched a Disney movie. Okay? It's not. Or is it because you have like a someone who come and watches your kids? I did most of my business. My husband was in medical school, so he was never home. And so my kids would go to bed at like whatever, and I'd stay up till way late into the night doing whatever I wanted, sewing and doing all that stuff. And that worked then because my husband was never home. Now my husband is home at 6, okay? So he's home. So that time I also have older kids. I have a 13-year-old who doesn't go to bed till 10, you know, so I don't have that time anymore. But I do have more time maybe in the day. I have my preschool, so I do have 6 whole hours to myself a week.

Just flush, flush with time. Look at you. What do you do with your 6 hours?

I don't know. I don't know. It's crazy. Um, but so I think you just have to really assess where you are. So, and like practically speaking, so that was like kind of broad. Broad view of what you do. But what I do is I make sure that because when I'm with my kids or I'm just doing mindless things, that I have a list. I know exactly when I do have a half hour to sit down. I know what I'm going to do when I sit down because that is the biggest time waster is that I'm sure your listeners are nodding with me like you are like, okay, I finally have my baby to sleep. I have things ready. Dinner's cooking in the crock pot, whatever. And you sit down and you spend 20 minutes trying to figure out what to do.

So you get on your phone because you're gonna post something, and then you look up and you're like, it's been a half an hour, I haven't posted anything.

Yeah. What I do is at the very beginning, usually on Sunday night, I will sit down and I just map out my kids' stuff. Like, and when I say map out, I just need to know I'm not very detailed. Like, this is not just— this takes 15 minutes. Like, this is me like being like We have soccer this day, we have soccer this day, we have soccer this day, which we do have soccer about every day. But you know, just saying, okay, this is what's happening, these are the 5 things in my business I have to get done, and this is when I'm gonna go grocery shopping, this is when I'm doing this, and just map that out on Sunday night before the week starts so that when I have that half hour, I can go back to that list and be like, okay, my top priority is emailing these 5 people clients and getting this done, then I can do that and check it off. And I'm not wasting the time, the very, very precious 6 hours— I'm just kidding— that I have. And so I think that's number one, is just being prepared to not waste any time when you do have the time to do it.

Amen. I think that that's so important. Yeah. And, and I like— you've been sharing on your Instagram, that's been really helpful, your meal plans. And you were like, hey, is this useful? And I think like I saw your poll and people were like, Yeah, this is super helpful because guess what? We— everybody's got to eat. Everybody. And a lot of us still, you know, we can, you know, raise our arm to the patriarchy or whatever, are still— you share— have the lion's share responsibility of getting food and feeding our family. And so having a plan and mixing that in of like, what are my meals this week? Do I have a plan? Do I need to start thawing stuff? Do I need to like get, you know, what do I need to get at the store to make sure that all happens smoothly? 'Cause then you can buy back your time.

Yeah, exactly, and that's, I do that on Sundays where I just am like, okay, these are the meals we're gonna have, and I'm also not super detailed in like this day I'm doing this unless it's like soccer day, you gotta throw something in the Crock-Pot. But Sundays, like really just prepare your meat for the week has been a huge thing. Chicken in it, and now I have a bag of shredded chicken in my fridge I can use for like 10 different kind of meals, right? And then anyway, it's simple things like that. And who knew we were gonna go from email marketing to thawing meat?

It's fine, but it's fine. This is, this is a modern woman. It's 2019, okay? You know, this is, this is real life, okay?

Yeah, it's exactly it. So, so that's why I really, if you take half hour on Sunday. And oh yes, guess what? Do you know what I'm doing? I have my planner. Why are we— like, I have been talking about this because this is— I was like, no one is doing this. And so I have a planner coming out. Okay, say that.

No, you haven't said that. Okay, if that of course makes sense because you're a good planner and we all need this from you. When is this? Tell us about this.

It's coming out on Black Friday.

Oh my gosh. Okay, is this happening?

It's happening. I was like, where do I put this down? I do it in a planner. I plan out my week in an actual— say, this is what we're gonna— this is what we're gonna eat. And I am not, again, a detailed person, so I know what we're gonna eat every day, but I have all the ingredients for like 5 or 6 different meals, and I can put them together because most of the work is done on Sunday, so— or on the weekend. Yeah. Anyway, so that's kind of That's how I do things.

It's awesome. No, but it's all, it's all super helpful stuff, and it helps us, I mean, to get our heads in the game and get this plan so that we can, yeah, serve ourselves, serve our family, and make use of our time, you know, and just be good stewards of it, of our energy and time.

I think we can get a lot of guilt because we're like, hey, we aren't eating dinner as a family, or we're eating out too much, or whatever. And actually, if you just do a little bit of planning up front, then it takes care of the rest because you're not wasting time and you're not, you like have made a decision and then there's a lot of peace in that, right? Like because we all know the witching hour of 4 to 5:30, it's the worst and you're like, and set to die. But, but if you have a plan on Sunday, you're like, oh, these are the 5 meals I have, then you could just choose one and make it and don't waste any time. And then we have a 13-year-old, you pass over the recipe and he makes it.

Oh, those are, those are That's a good day, man. Those are dreams. Okay, someday.

Goals.

All the things. So, well, I love that we got— yeah, I, I think it's great to talk about a balance of like the work-life mama stuff and how, practically speaking, that handles and how we can get our businesses on track, our email, all the other branding things. Um, you know, you talked a little bit about, and I appreciate the tee-up, that it's good for us to take our businesses seriously. Um, and especially when we're in the business that now we should be making money, we should be charging what we're worth, and we should be comfortable with that. Um, you know, have you seen in your business or have seen any of your clients that you've helped with where legal has helped? Or, you know, what problems happen maybe when people put off legal for too long and not investing that in their businesses?

Yeah, I think the hardest thing is that most of the— most creatives start out really small, right? And so small means that they are bringing in all their resources around them, right? So it's like family or friends or whatever. And I just have seen that, that it is really best if you create clear boundaries. And there's something really wonderful about being like, hey, I have, I have this— you can blame Brittany, I would think.

You say, totally blame me, guys. I can handle it.

Okay, it's like what my mom would say, like, if you're at a party, you can always blame me, right? You can always be like, my mom would kill me. My dad would send me to detention, it's fine. So like, I think it's great to have that and be like, you know what, my lawyer would kill me if I didn't have a contract. And it really, what it also, what this forces you to do is really set some really clear boundaries because you just don't want to lose a friendship or any kind of relationship because you did not take the like 2 minutes to create a contract 'cause that's, I use Brittany's contracts and they do take 2 minutes to customize. So like, so like just to take that extra time and thought because that's actually part of the problem is that you're, when you're just starting out or maybe you're into it and you don't think about what those lines are gonna be and then you get into it and it becomes a little bit hairy. And so that's actually, I guess, That's my advice, is to really, really make clear boundaries. And I think contracts are a really nice way to do that because, like my friend Sarah always says, to be clear is to be kind. Yes.

Oh, I love that. Well, Sarah's, Sarah's brilliant. But yeah, I agree with you. It's not only that, like, that a contract will save you or solve you time and money, although it will, but the actual process and exercise that you have to go through to to have that and to have thought through all these things. Oh, well, what happens if this event does get canceled? Because we're all assuming and we're making plans like this event's going to happen, but what happens if it doesn't? How are we going to handle that? And who's going to pay for stuff? Or what happens if, um, the product comes back and it's not good? And now who's going to pay for that? Is that my problem? Is that their problem? Or have we talked about that, about that contingency? And I found that it's, um, it's rare the person who thinks about all those things and talks about it without being prompted to and having to, because some of those can be like you said, a little bit weird or awkward conversations until you've had them a lot, you know? And you could just say, hey, can we have an awkward conversation for a second about some of this stuff if things go differently than what we planned?

And then you say, remember, I'm not weird about money.

Just keep saying that phrase. I'm not weird about money. I'm not weird about money. So can we talk about the money so we just are on the same page? Sure, sure. And then you talk about it.

Yeah, it's better an awkward conversation than a mean conversation.

Yeah, and so much better than lawyered up and emails and arbitration and litigation. And all the other things that I see happen, guys, because we didn't— nobody— people were weird and so they didn't talk about the money. And now guess what? We're really weird about the money.

Don't be weird.

Don't be weird, guys. So moral, the moral of your business story. So, well, I've loved all of these tips. Okay. You've given us so much of that. Like, I mean, I don't want to take, take, take because obviously you guys, if you've heard what you've liked from Michelle, you need to hire her and she's going to change your business and change your life. And certainly change your email inbox. But what else would kind of be your parting advice for people who are, you know, maybe they've gotten started in something in their business, in their influence, and are looking to kind of finish and have that system put in that they can really, yeah, kind of build the business they want to?

Yeah, I think a lot of the biggest problem I see is that people are so busy in the busy of their business that they don't take a minute to really create the systems that actually work their business. And so I would, like, I think take a break from content creation. And you know, keep your Instagram up if that's your main source or whatever, but just take a minute, evaluate your business and say, listen, I know, 'cause the reality is, is I bet most of you guys know what you need to do next in your business, but we're so on this like hamster wheel of, well, we gotta do this, we gotta do this, but those things are just keeping the wheel moving, it's not making you money. And so I think just like self-evaluating and saying, listen, I know I need a really great email sequence. I know I need whatever automated. I know I need to outsource whatever. Like if you just take a second and write your list of things that you need and really like write it down, be like, I need an assistant who does this. I need an email list that points to, I mean an email funnel that points to this product. Like write down specifics. You'll be super shocked at how you can accomplish it, accomplish these things and find that just like 90%, what is the quote? A well-written problem is 90% of the solution or something like that. But if you can like write out exactly what you need, then that's actually half the battle because you can get your things solved.

Yeah, you can get your people to help you. And, um, yeah, you can find your VA, you can find someone, a friend, and Upwork. You could hire out what you need to hire out. You can focus on what you need to focus on and maybe let some other stuff go and not fall prey to shiny object syndrome and be like, oh, everyone says I have to be doing video, or I know I need to start a podcast, or I need to be on TikTok now, or whatever, whatever it is. There's always going to be something that someone's going to be selling, but it doesn't mean that you have to upset other things that are working, or that you shouldn't finish the task at hand and do it well, um, before you, you know, allow yourself to get distracted and move on.

So exactly, we don't have time to waste, ladies. Come on.

No, we do not. Daylight is burning. Okay, all the things. So, um, well, this has been, um, wonderful to talk to you. Yeah, well, if people want to hear more about you, about what you're offering, about the problems you're solving and the ways that you're helping. Where should they look to find you?

You should find me at michellegiffordcreative.com or on Instagram, Michelle Gifford Creative. Be good, come find me, come hang out.

Come hang out. And like Michelle said, she's offering— she has these amazing planners that she's gonna be telling us more about that are gonna be available on Black Friday. And Michelle and I are also doing a super cool sale that's before Black Friday for all of our business people. So I'm gonna get this episode episode out before then because we realized that for all of our people that we're serving that are business owners, y'all are busy. And so we want to make sure that you— because on Black Friday you're managing your own shops because you've got money and hay to make. So we don't want to be messing with you then. We want to make sure that you have what you need beforehand so that your business can run the way it needs to run and be all shipshape and ready for the new decade.

That's right, it's gonna be a good 2020.

2020, baby. 2020. Isn't that some way— that makes me feel like so old because I'm like, I remember Barbara Walters and watching 2020. Yeah, all the things. Well, this has been wonderful, Michelle. Thank you so much for coming on and chatting with me today. It's always a pleasure to get to spend time and chat with you. Thank you. Wasn't that just an awesome episode? Thanks so much for tuning in, guys. And like Michelle and I talked about, as this episode is going live right now, our sale is live that we talked about. So the Better Than Black Friday sale that we have, and Michelle's got a cool landing page set up for it that gives you information about my offerings, about the contract shop and the discount, what she's offering, along with some other friends that we've roped in. We have an accountant for creatives, we have a really cool, um, Amy Northard, we have a Pleasant Pictures Music Club, which is a stock music library that offers some really great tunes at a really great price for anyone who's creating content and needs needs royalty-free, you know, commercial-free music that won't get flagged, that will be fine, that you will, you know, outright own like you should and not have any problems. You know how I love getting— steering clear of all that copyright music drama. And then the last person we have is the amazing Kirsten Tyrell, who is a podcaster master in her own right, and she has a course all about how to start a podcast with like a challenge, like 28 days or less you will have your podcast started. So if you are interested in doing what I do, what Michelle does, what Kristen does, um, jump on in, or any of these other offers. So please check them out. I'll have links in the show notes, or you can head to my Instagram page. I'll also have links and more explanation on there. But I really hope that you guys take advantage of the sale. If you've been eyeing anything that's in my shop or wondering like, oh, I maybe need to grab that, and, you know, hesitating because frankly it's just not something that you wanted to spend the money on, I get it. Totally get it. No offense taken. I know legal is not the top of the sexy list of things to buy for your business, but, but I can promise you that all the templates that I offer are the best at what they do. Okay, they have been carefully drafted by me, reviewed by other attorneys. They are tested out with creatives, with real clients in the industry. This is something that you can put together as part of your business and send out with confidence. So that means every time you click send or publish or send it through your Dubsado or HoneyBook or whatever, um, when you are booking people, when you're hiring people, when you're making deals with other people, um, you can just know that you're doing it the right way and that you are presenting yourself on your best foot forward and your best chance of having a really clear collaboration, deal, project, relationship, um, that will really serve your business and also serve your people really well. That will match up with the great kind of business that you already are. And this contract is just the cherry on top. This just gets to be the piece of paper, the literally same page that you both get to be on. So make sure you check out the links there and go to creativecontracts.co. I'd love to see you go ahead and review all the stuff that's there, and especially would love to see you taking advantage of the free quiz I offer. So if you are not sure what exactly you need, um, go to creativecontracts.co, and I have a free quiz that I've developed, a little decision tree that will take you through, that will show you exactly what you need to buy and exactly what's a good fit for you based on your business, okay? So you just answer the questions and the results will pop right up for you. You don't have to enter your email, you don't have to play any of those shady marketing games. Like, I'm just laying it all out for you guys. I'm here to serve you. So thanks so much for tuning in. I'm wishing you a happy time of year as we go into the busy holiday season. I'm wishing peace with you and your business and the loved ones and those you find close to. And I hope that you're, you're taking time to take care of yourself and to, you know, push hard where you need to push hard in your business, but also take a deep breath and give yourself a break. Because I know you're doing a really good job, and I know that you're doing your best, because aren't we all? We're all just doing our best, guys. So I just— in case you needed that little pep talk and some love today, just know that it's there for you. So thanks so much for tuning in, and remember that you are a a real business owner. So you should own your business, okay, in every sense of the word.