Legal Q & A for Creative Entrepreneurs - Brittany Ratelle - Live IG replay

Hey everybody, thanks. Oh, that is the wrong way. That's my door. Nope, that's okay, we're gonna get it. Hey, one, two, there we go. Okay, thanks for your patience everybody. So, um, okay, the only thing I'm having trouble with is like where to, where to look because I have my phone up here and my computer over here. Um, so hopefully that's not— I feel like I'm in like a documentary, you know how they always have like this side on and then like I didn't know what to do. I was so confused. So maybe just pretend like if I'm not the one looking straight at you, just pretend like we're watching a cool documentary. So, hey guys, thanks for jumping on. So, um, I'll give my brief intro and disclaimer and then I'll jump in with questions because I got a bunch of questions tonight and then I'll open it up. So if anyone else jumps on, um, you feel free. Um, hey guys, thanks, thanks for coming on. Um, you can put a question, question box, whatever it pleaseth you. Or if you like something you're hearing or you want more clarification, or if you're like, slow down Brittany, you're getting too excited, um, that happens too. I would love to hear all that. Okay, so I'm Brittany Ratelle. I am an attorney for creative entrepreneurs, and I, um, I'm licensed in Utah and Idaho, and I love practicing law to help creatives get their businesses legit. That's what I do. So, um, my— I have clients from all different walks of life, um, in terms of product-based or service-based or content-based businesses, but a lot of them are what they self-identify as creatives or creative entrepreneurs, and they have some sort of kind of creative small business, you know, lifestyle or brand-based business. And that's who I like working with. So, but this tonight, this thing going on is a free legal, you know, Q&A for you to answer questions of me. But this is not official attorney legal advice, okay? Meaning like, I'm not your attorney, you're not my client, not how we're talking tonight. If that's something that you're interested in, in working with me one-on-one where I'm like your attorney and you're like, "Hmm, I have to talk to my lawyer," like that kind of thing, the way that you start that process is by getting on a free consult call with me. My calendar is on my website, BrittanyRatelle.com, and then we chat about your business and maybe what your needs are, where you're at, where you want to go, and then how legal might play a role in that, what you might be ready for in terms of adding and protecting and growing and scaling your business. So, so that's how you do that. Okay, that's not what we're doing tonight. We're just here, this is for informational purposes only. So, okay, um, so let's talk about and jump into some of the questions that I got beforehand. Okay, um, the first one that I got was, um, someone wanted to know, they, um, there's someone who teaches, um, is a, is a teacher who designs and does their own digital curriculum, um, and this is a growing market. I know a lot of people who are in this space who are former teachers who are now the ones providing and building their own curriculum out for specific subject matter areas. So this teacher is wanting to know, she works in history, what kind of quotes or sources can I use and include in my history curriculum? What is allowed? She says it always makes her nervous when she's seen online and seen stuff that she'd like to use. So, and this is a great question because I just did a podcast a couple weeks ago with the Grow With Us for the— it's kind of a teachers, a TPT, Teachers Pay Teachers, um, podcast for people who are growing and trying to sell on that platform, um, with April. Um, and, uh, sorry, I forgot her co-host's name. Anyway, um, but we talked at length about this because one of the issues I think that's hard is that, um, teachers, you know, obviously start out usually being in education, um, and having really broad use to use all kinds of materials because it's educational, you know, it's not-for-profit. It's— we're really lax, and which is a good thing in our society, that when people are using stuff to teach it for education-wise, we want to give them the benefit of doubt. And we certainly— we give them fair use as a defense to being able to use different materials because they're teaching. Um, however, when you start moving into the for-profit, as in you are making money and this is a business because you are writing curriculum and you're selling curriculum, even if it is obviously going to be used by teachers, um, you do need to be a little bit more careful and kind of have that business hat mindset on as you're looking at what can you use and what can you not use. So for curriculum, um, the general rule is that if there are things that you— you can't copy anything, um, wholesale that would be protected by copyright law, copyright or trademark law, okay? And now copyright and trademark protect different things in the US. Copyright protects literary works, musical works, artistic works. So these are books, paintings, sculptures, songs. You can even protect choreography, poetry. There's things in between. You can protect websites. You can protect workbooks. There's all kinds of things that you can copyright the actual thing. Now, if you're just using a portion of that, if there's a huge book, if you're quoting something by Michael McCullough on 1776 because you're talking about the Revolutionary War, and there's a paragraph in there that you just really love their description of the battlefield, you know, on Christmas Day with Washington is charging across to beat the Hessians, that's going to be fine. Okay, a paragraph from an entire book, that's going to be fine. Okay. Now, if you're quoting the whole book or trying to like rework that, you know, just change a couple words and pass it off as yours, that's not going to be okay. So a lot of the, you know, technically you're not supposed to take anything, but I'm saying like quotes are generally viewed as short quotes. Short excerpts are going to be okay, um, unless they're licensed material or like trademark material. And by that I mean that if you have curriculum and you are putting a mouse on there with black ears and red trunks on with little buttons, that really looks like you are creating and trying to co-opt a licensed character, a trademark character. Um, Disney is very good about protecting their property. They're very proactive about it. So I would not be putting Disney characters on your curriculum. So, um, so just something to keep in mind is just be thinking when you see something that you love, kind of be asking yourself, um, how much of this would I want to use? Um, is this going to hurt their business at all by me sharing this and putting this into this curriculum? What proportion of it, of the whole, am I sharing? Um, am I— is the reason why this is so interesting and fascinating is because I'm kind of you know, I'm kind of piggybacking the attention and the excitement that this already has, like using a Batman, you know, figure because he looks just like Batman and he has a Batman logo. Well, there's a reason why, because we identified that logo with Batman. You can't use Batman. You don't own Batman. You don't create Batman. You got to come up with your own thing. Okay, so anytime we're like, oh, but we love using that stuff, of course we all love using that stuff, but the reason why that stuff gets to be created is because people can protect it and make money off of it. So, you know, it's just good to be— when you're in especially the content creation space, it's just good to be a good neighbor about that and to be conscious of what can I do to make sure that I'm following the rules and I'm setting a good example for other people who are in that space. So, so that's, that's always really good. So, so really great question. And in terms of what you can share, and, you know, keep on sharing good stuff because certainly we all, we love our teachers and we really appreciate them. So, hey, and this is just something I'm going to address more in depth in my digital course that's coming out in a few more weeks. So I got a little behind with prepping for Alt Summit and stuff. So, but it's called Rip Off Resilient, and it's going to be all about how you can learn how to protect your content and what you're creating and what can be protected and copyrighted and what can't be, what you need to let go, what you need to like push for and draw a line in the sand about. All of that I'm going to dig into. So, um, stay tuned on Instagram for details. I'm going to have the kind of the resources for that coming up soon. Um, okay, next question is, okay, someone is using my— they said their business, their name. I assume they mean like the brand name of their business, not their personal name. That would be weird if someone was using your name, using your brand name on a site. Um, I filed for it, what can I do? Um, and I guess my follow-up question is, what do you mean by filed for? Because that Certainly depends on what you can do and what your options might be. So if you filed for it, meaning that you filed as like a sole proprietorship or that you filed an LLC under it or a DBA, which is a doing business as, sometimes also known as a fictitious name, in some states they're known as that, then those do not give you any legal rights to that name outside of your state. In fact, they don't even really give you the full legal rights in your state because it's not like it's a state trademark. They honestly just give you the right to use that name. It's not even the right to name. They clear the legal hurdle that if you're doing business under a name that's different than your own given name, what's on your birth certificate, then people need to know where they can find you. And so you have a legal requirement to make that clear that what your fictitious name is that's attached to you as a person, but you do not have any rights in your name. You have not eked out any real estate online regardless of whether you have a domain or social handles or anything else. Like GoDaddy does not talk to the Trademark Office. They are not on speed dial with each other. They don't care. So in terms of if that bums you out, if that name is something that's important to you and you want to build a brand around that name or you have built a brand and you're like, eek, We would be, we'd be bummed if we had to change it because someone else is using that name and they are the one who's sending us a cease and desist, or if someone else comes along, you know, skipping behind us and uses that name and is confusing in our same space. So if either of those things are bumming you out, then what you probably need to do is trademark it. So, which is something that I do for clients, and trademarking is a little bit of investment, so It's usually around $1,000 to do when I work with clients one-on-one with it because it includes a really comprehensive search. Then we have to be strategic about the filing. We do the filing in certain classes of goods or services because a trademark is not just a blanket, you get this name for all the things in all the world. No, a trademark is for a certain class of goods or services. This is getting to another question that someone had. That how close is a business name to something else? Well, if it's a trademark, which is how you would protect a business name, you don't copyright a business name, you'd copyright a book, you'd copyright a course, like the actual materials, but the name of it, the name of something, if that's your thing, your brand, you trademark that. You can trademark the brand name, your slogan, your logo, you can even do like trade dress or colors or smell, those are harder and more expensive, those more obscure ones that I listed at the bottom. The most common ones that people trademark are the actual name of their business and then their logo is usually secondary for like physical product businesses. But you do only get those in a certain category, meaning that there's a reason why Delta Airlines has a trademark in the airline industry, aviation, and Delta Faucets also has a trademark in hardware, bathroom hardware. It's because nobody confuses those two things. Trademarks are all about the consumer. Is the consumer confused? Are we making it clear for them? That's, that's who we're looking out for. That's our number one, is that poor little consumer in TJ Maxx. Okay, and no one goes and does a bathroom renovation and is like, I thought I was going to Tahiti, I'm really confused. So, so that's what we're always trying to look at, is how can we make sure that those are different and distinct and very clear in this space. So in terms of someone having a similar name to you, and is it okay, and can you do anything to stop them, if you have a trademark in your name, then you have the rights to that name. And if they have a related good or service, it doesn't have to be the exact good or service— note, I didn't say that— it doesn't even have to be the exact same name, okay? If there is a likelihood of confusion, that's the legal standard. Likelihood of confusion. Does that sound like a lawyerly word? Yes, it is. Does that sound like you could spend a lot of money having lawyers debate what the likelihood of confusion is? Yes, you're absolutely right. There are a lot of lawyers who make a lot of money arguing that. But generally, it comes down to, are people confused enough? Would they expect these things to be sold from the same person? Would they expect these things to be listed in the same SKUs in the same kind of store? That they go together. Oh, this place, they sell pet collars, so maybe they sell pet food too. I don't know. Or pet beds, you know, they didn't list for pet beds, but you could see how that would be close enough. Or someone sells, you know, Christmas decorations, well maybe they sell other kind of decorations too. So it's a really kind of case-by-case analysis, which is why I highly recommend that if you want to go down this road and you want to protect your brand in this way, you hire an attorney to do it for you. Because what What happens is that people, they hear this and they're like, "I gotta lock down my brand. I gotta do something." They'll Google it and they'll come up with something a whole lot cheaper on LegalZoom or one of these other online trademark filing, filing, R/S, or whatever. Those places, there's a reason why they're offering you that price is because it's not a real attorney who's helping you through this process. They're just filling out forms for you. They're not giving you any advice. They're not doing any research. They're not listening to what your business does. Does or what your business wants to do. Therefore, it's really hard to get a really good strategic filing that fits into what your business vision is and that will actually be of use to you. Because if you don't take those steps and you file it, then you, you paid your government fee, and then as soon as there's a blip in the road when they want you to change your specimen, or it's about to be abandoned, or you get an office action, like, there's no one there to back you up, and all goes to the trademark graveyard. So, and I see filings like that all the time. I see even like people who are making good money and who should have someone watching their back, and you know, I feel bad. And if I wasn't allowed to, I would, you know, I would reach out, I would email them and be like, hey, do you need any help? Can I help fix this situation for you? But, um, you know, attorney ethics being what it is, they need to come to me. But anyway, so, um, I don't like seeing that. That bums me out that people are trying to do the right thing and trying to help protect their businesses and and their money is getting wasted. So please, please reach out and work with an attorney if you can. If you try to build that into your budget, save for it, make it a priority if you love your name and you'd be heartbroken if you couldn't use your name anymore. Okay, um, so that answers kind of two questions there about the business naming thing. Um, oh, and also I want to recommend, um, so my podcast episode, I highly recommend, um, 6 Ways a Trademark Can Protect Your Brand. That's episode number 24, which will be really useful to you. The other one that would be really helpful in looking at this business name and protecting brand name and all that stuff is episode 10, Copyrights Versus Trademarks. Okay, so, and that's Long Wit is the name of my podcast, and you can find that anywhere you listen to podcasts. Okay, iTunes, iHeartRadio, Spotify, Google Play, Overcast, Stitcher, all the places. Okay, all right. Um, next question is someone wanted to know, um, can I write my own disclaimer and other— my other website legal docs, or does a lawyer have to do it? So great question, like all the questions tonight. Um, no, there is no legal requirement that an attorney draft these for you. However, I will say that the sometimes common practice that people have of going online and looking at a website and just copying and pasting one and putting it on theirs and being like, "Hey, see, I did it," can be a little problematic because I tend to see— and because I see these all over— ones that don't match up to what people are doing is the first problem. So it means they're— it's saying on there like, "Hey, don't mind this if we're collecting this information," which they're not collecting, Or they're making promises that they cannot keep and then they should not be putting into their policies, which are basically mini contracts you're making with the users of your websites. And that's what you want. You want these clubhouse rules so that when people come on to your property, when they come on to your website, come on in, take your hat off, can I give you a sip of water? You know, you want to make people feel welcome. Also, here are the rules. Just in case over here, let's just sit down on the ground rules so we're all on the same page here. That's what your website policies are. And so I'll see people all the time, like by their opt-in, you know, they'll say like, I would, I would, I would never, I would never sell your information. I would never sell your email address. Really? Like, what if you sold your company? I bet you you'd sell your email addresses. I bet that would be— oh, thanks, thanks Natalie. You have bad reception but just wanted to say hi. Oh bummer, I hate that. That's the worst when you glitch. I always save these though, but So thank you for saying hi, I appreciate that. But yeah, if you sold your website, if you sold your whole business, your website would probably be part of that. Your email list is probably going to be an asset that's part of that. So don't say that you wouldn't sell it, you would. Someone gave you the right price, you'd be like, bye people, there you go. Also, what if you were doing like a joint collaboration with somebody else? You would probably sell it. Like if you said, hey, we're going to do an event or like hold a conference together or we're going to do like a new product. Line or something, um, let's share and make sure that we're co-marketing and sharing email lists and stuff with all of our audiences because we think it'd be a great fit. That can be viewed as also selling your list. And so, um, yeah, just want to make sure that you are not fronting, that you're not putting promises out— thanks guys to the hearts— um, that you couldn't actually deliver on. Okay, so don't do that. Just don't state it like you're not going to spam, you're going to follow the CAN-SPAM Act. That's good because that's That's the law regarding email marketing that you need to follow, which you probably are if you're following— you have an email service provider that's doing its job. Yeah, you don't want to be sketchy there. So, so that's what I tend to see, the problem when people go online and they don't pay for an attorney to draft it, or they go to like one of these free privacy policy generators. I see these all over the place, and they'll be like, hey, just put in your, your stuff here, and you'll notice— and you'll notice they have a giant disclaimer on it that says like We didn't have an attorney actually look at this. Like, we actually have no idea if this is covering your butt, if this complies with GDPR, if this complies with COPPA, which is the Children's Online Privacy Act, which all of you need to be aware of and make sure that you are defining children under 13 and making sure that they don't have access and you're not collecting their information. That's against the law. That's a big deal. You also want to make sure that you're complying with California privacy laws. So GDPR You know, is a bigger deal if you're selling to people in Europe. I know a lot of people here aren't, and that's not a huge concern, but you probably are selling to people in California, and so that is a concern. California law gives a private right of action, which— that's the lawyerly way of saying they can sue you if you're not complying with the law. So if your website is not compliant and you are collecting information like Google Analytics, so probably like you all are, or if you have Facebook pixels or if you're running AdWords, all of that stuff runs analytics, all of that stuff collects information. That's how it does the magic that it does. Then you are collecting information, you need to disclose that. It's not a big deal, but you just need to be upfront about it. Otherwise, you can get in trouble and people can sue you, and you could also lose some of your privileges with those third-party providers. So when you sign up to be and go do Google AdWords or be like an ad partner, you click a box that says that you have a privacy policy. So if you don't, then that's a problem. Okay, so, so if you don't have one of those yet and you're like, yikes, Brittany, I didn't know. Sorry, sorry, not sorry. I'm just, I'm helping you guys out here. I want to, I want to set you on the right path, okay, towards redemption. The cheapest way to get these from me is, you know, don't pay me to draft them one-on-one. That's too expensive and it's not in your best interest. Buy them on my template shop at creativecontracts.co. Okay, go on and you can buy my website bundle. You get both of these policies. You get— comes with very clear instructions on how to download them, get them up on your website, um, one episode of The Bachelor and you're done. Okay, you're done, you're outie, you're good. So, um, that's what you should do about that. Okay, um, and the next question was, how do I price canvas reprints of original paintings? Um, So this one's a little tough to answer. Thanks, Natalie. Um, so this one's a little tough to answer if you don't— without more information about what your pricing is like normally. Like, if you do commission paintings, what does that look like? Or if you just do like original works, um, because that's certainly going to determine what, um, canvas like reprints are going to be. Also, I'm— I would be interested in to know. And so these are just some questions that maybe you can walk through as you are going through and deciding on pricing. Um, How much are your costs with that? How much is your canvas going to be? Because there's a big wide difference in terms of reprints in the art world of how nice your canvas is. You know, if this is like Costco quality or if this is like artisan, you know, really nice, you know, glossy— wherever you pronounce it with the E and the flourish— um, uh, prints, um, and, you know, archival quality or whatever. Um, I'd also want to know like how How big of a run is it? You know, if it's a limited edition and it's more of a special, you know, run, then they should probably be priced higher, and that's what you should do. If you're doing a lot and you're not sure about demand yet, then— and your typical price that you're selling it on Etsy or on your own site or whatever is lower, um, and that's kind of what your competition is in that space of where you would, you know, comparatively put yourself, then maybe it needs to be priced lower. So, um, so yeah, that one is— sorry, I can't give you numbers just ballpark without knowing that more information. But that's what I would look at. Um, I would also ask around. So look at people who are in your— a similar space. It doesn't have to be exactly the same style as you, but if you can get at least a ballpark of what are, you know, artists in your general genre, what are their works going for, um, and then you can kind of back out the price for there, building in, okay, well, there needs to be a cut for whoever your fulfillment person is. There needs to be that, um, you need to, you know, for shipping Is there going to be any inventory or carrying costs, so like warehouses anywhere? Um, you know, what's your marketing costs in terms of, you know, thinking about website or ads or, you know, graphic design or social media or content, any of those other pieces? So think about all of that in terms of the cost of goods sold, and then think about what your profit needs to be to make this worth your time. Um, also counting your time, which a lot of creatives have— tend to have a hard time doing. They don't count their labor in there, which you absolutely do. Okay, time is money, and your time is money if you create content, if you create beautiful creations or artwork, if that's what you do, then making sure that you're, you know, backing out that price and you're not, you know, paying yourself $20 an hour, which, yeah, you should be higher than that. You should be worth more than that, okay? All right, okay, those are the ones that I came with, so I will open it up to any other questions from my Facebookers, from my Instagrammers. Anyone else? I got a couple more minutes before I said I'd jump off. I said I'd call my parents back. They're in Hawaii, so thoughts and prayers, guys, because they're in Hawaii. It's rained for the last 3 days here, so I'm not bitter. I'm okay with it. Totally cool with it. Love the rain. Go Northwest. Okay, I'll give you guys a second because I know sometimes it It takes a bit. So, um, on that, I will mention a few other free resources that I have. Is, um, I mentioned my podcast, Lon Whit Creative Council for Entrepreneurs, which I got all kinds of episodes about legal tips, kind of running the back end of a creative business. And I have kind of origin stories and business, um, kind of dig into their business story of successful entrepreneurs. Um, I had Anna's The Worst is on there. People have been loving her episode, Anna McFarlane. From Kids Are the Worst, Ashley's Fresh Fix. I have Elle from Sully Baby coming up, a couple other fun— okay. Creatives, what's the biggest problem you see people having, creatives specifically, with contracts? So yeah, I definitely— hey Rachel, um, good to see you. Um, so the, the biggest problem that I see, um, with creatives and their contracts, um, well, I mean, basically is creative in their contracts and they don't have them Or they are not reviewing them and making sure that their, um, the intellectual property rights and the specifically like the rights distribution is the way it should be that allows them to hold on to the property and grow their business in the way they want to. So, um, so for example with creative, so say, um, if you are in the field where you're creating original work and you're licensing and working with other partners, um, I've seen some people get like really excited and kind of Twitterpated that like, oh, I'm going to be licensed, or like I'm going to get a licensing agent, or like, I've arrived, and big deal. And that is, that is like something to celebrate. Like, it's, it is, it's so cool. But, but, um, you also just need to be smart. And then, you know, there's time to celebrate and there's a time to put on like your business girl hat, you know, get your boss babe mug out, and then think about, okay, so what exactly, what cut am I giving them and for what? Like, what are they doing for me that I couldn't do for myself? Because these days You know, you can have like complete vertical integration, which is a fancy way of saying you can do it all. Like you can be Jay-Z, meaning you could do all the different parts of your business. So because you can hire out someone to do fulfillment, you don't have to be down there with your stamp layer and like your box tape cutter. That doesn't have to be you. You can pay somebody to do that. You know, you don't have to be doing the warehousing. Like, you know, you can pay all people to do that part of your business. The printing, you can find someone to just pay for that where they're not taking percentage per se. You're just giving them like, hey, this is what it costs to do a run of your stuff. So, um, you know, and even to do like the marketing. So, um, so I just always try to push back and get people to think about what parts of their business are they really excited about, are they energized about, what are they finding that they're really good at, and where do they— where do they want to grow, or where do they want help. And if that mix makes sense for how the contract is being split, then that sounds like a good deal. So, and there's going to be some give and take there. I mean, a good deal means that everyone's pretty happy, but they're not like ecstatic. If one person is like really, really happy, then it usually means like the other person's got a really bad deal. So you usually want to have like, it's somewhere in the middle, like it's a good compromise, right? That's, you know, ultimately usually what most negotiations end up being. So you just want to ask some of those, you know, more critical thinking questions about that. And especially you want to look at the term. So, you know, I'd always shy away my creatives from getting into contracts that are lasting too long, especially with someone that you haven't worked with before, or you're just kind of not sure. Like, don't, you know, don't sign a 5-year agreement. Yikes. Like, 5 years is a long time for your business and the market to change and grow and ebb and flow. And for things that were really exciting and Twitterpated and honeymoon stage and hustle to then like dwindle to nothing. And if you've granted exclusivity, meaning they're the only ones who get to represent you or get to print this stuff or get to deal in this merchandise or sell this product or whatever, then, then that sucks if it's not working anymore because now you're just tied up with that and you just gotta wait it out. So, so always look at term, always look at exclusivity, always looking at that rights of how is that going to work out. Are you, you know, if other things are going to spin out of this. Like, um, I, I've reviewed contracts for people, for like agents or people who are like representing them, like talent agents. Um, and I'm always making sure we're looking at the, like, the residuals. Um, which that means that like, say, so the way it works if someone represents you as an agent, like they represent you for a term, like say it's a year or 2 years. Um, well typically if they have renewals from deals that happen in that term even after they don't represent you. Like you— so, um, so with that, you need to make sure that like, hey, if you had a deal beforehand that was like pre-existing, like that was your deal, like you were the lioness who brought that kill home, that you don't have to be giving a cut of that to your agent. So, um, things like that, like you just got to watch out for and carve out because typically a lot of agreements won't have that in together. Um, and I'm seeing a lot of bloggers and influencers and content creators being treated like talent, and they are being given more traditional talent agreements to sign in some of those sponsored content deals. And so you just want to be a little savvy and make sure that you're looking out for you. And sometimes agents will be looking out for you, but sometimes they also will be looking out for the short-term interest. And so I think it's a great idea to have an agent. Like, I understand the role of agents in a lot of fields, like have a book agent or a licensing agent, or it's you know, talent agent, whatnot. But there's also still a space for an attorney, for you, for someone who knows what you want to do big picture and is making sure that this contract and what you're negotiating is still part of that vision, um, and that it's not going to— you're not closing doors. Okay, we don't want to be closing doors on our dreams. We want to be leaving lots of doors open for things to ebb and flow. So, okay, okay, that was a long answer to that. Um, I do want to recommend The podcast that talks a lot about this— oh, Long Wit episode 13 is 10 contract terms you need to know. Okay, and that one also has a handout that comes with it, a freebie, a little upgrade. So if you listen to the episode and go to the episode page, that you'll have— you'll see the links to that. So that's Long Wit episode number 13. So BrittanyRatelle.com/13, or wherever you listen to podcasts, you can look it up there.. You might find that to be super helpful for things that you know you should be looking at for a contract. So, okay, all right, I'm gonna jump off because that's probably enough for tonight. So, um, thanks so much guys for joining me. So I mentioned the podcast, um, oh, my newsletter as well. So if you're interested in hearing more of this kind of stuff of what I share, um, if you want to have all the replay links to these, these lives, I put them on YouTube and I share the links. And so, and I give a little recap of what questions we covered, and so that way you can know, like, oh, does this apply to my business or not? And if it applies later down— so good to see you too, Natalie, thanks— then you can sign up to be on that at BrittanyRatelle.com/newsletter. You also get my free legal checklist for creatives, which gives you a bird's-eye view. It's like a step-by-step legal roadmap of what things should you be looking at legally to protect your business. Okay, this is a great sheet to work through on your own before you talk to someone like me or someone else, or start down like the Google rabbit hole or the Facebook group rabbit hole, um, just to try to wrap your head around what are some things that maybe might be right for my business and what things like what questions should I even be asking. I always get that a lot of people like, I know I need to be using something but I don't even know where to start. That's where you start right there, okay? BrittanyRatelle.com/newsletter. Thanks so much guys, have a great night and Just remember that you are a real business owner, so you should own your business in every sense of the word. Hey, have a great night!