Pricing For Creatives and Designers - 47

This is Law and Wit, Episode 47: Pricing for Creatives and Designers. Welcome to Law and Wit, Creative Counsel for Entrepreneurs. I'm your host, Brittany Rettell, mother of 4, entrepreneur, naptime lawyer, and attorney for creative entrepreneurs. I'm here to share inspiration and action so that you can tackle your business blocks and confidently own your business in every sense of the word. Thank you so much for being here. Hello and welcome back, guys. So it's been a while. It's been a hot minute, um, and you can probably tell a little bit why. Um, I am still sick. I have had the worst sickness I've ever had in my life in terms of length. I've been sick for almost a month now. It's like going on 3 weeks, and it is probably one of the most boring things in the world to talk about, so we're not going to belabor that point. But I did take a little bit of a summer break and just to spend time with my family and really just be present with them and enjoy the summer. That's why I a big reason of why we live where we live in the Pacific Northwest, and our summers are short and sweet and have to be savored. Um, and then of course that turned into being sick and not feeling up to podcasting, or physically not even being able to talk. So, um, that's brought us to where we are. But all that aside, I'm here, you're here, so let's get to it. Today we are going to be talking about pricing. Yes, all the money, honey. Um, and I hope that you can get excited about this, that you can wrap your head around. Um, we're going to be speaking mostly to my my peeps here who are in the creative services businesses, those of you who provide client services. But we also are going to talk about product pricing too, and there are a lot of principles that are very similar in terms of those. And of course, that applies if you offer digital products as well. So I hope that if you open your mind and really think about the questions and some of the principles that we're going to go over, you'll be able to apply those to whatever your business is right now and get some, some good takeaways. Okay, and I've got a lot of great links. As I was preparing for this episode, I came across some amazing material. I'm going to throw all of those in the show notes. They're also going to be— so they're going to be in the notes for this podcast and also on my episode page. So make sure you check that out. In addition to, I'm planning on doing a handout, a freebie that goes along with this episode that has these takeaways. So if you're on the go and you can't take notes right now, but you'd really like to have this to revisit, to, to look at and to make some of your own notes and adjustments and have things that you want to work through, the questions, Please take advantage of that. You will find that at BrittanyRattail/47, okay, for episode 47, alright? So let's get into it, okay? Pricing, okay, so sexy. Well, I mean, actually it is, guys, because it's about money and it's about value and like that's where it's at, okay? That's what makes you a business, that's what allows you to help other people, and for you to put out great energy in the world is to make the world go around, okay? So, um, the two common ways that people price, especially in the creative services field, are hourly and flat fee. Okay, those are the two basic systems, or some kind of combination thereof. I mean, I would even put things like retainers or packages— those are still kind of flat fee. Um, so what I want to do is first is go through kind of some pros and cons of using both of those systems, and then we're going to have some questions that will kind of dig into when you are pricing, when you're either setting your prices or looking at your prices to see if you need to adjust them. Um, some guiding principles that will help you with that process. So hourly, this is where a lot of us start. Okay. When you are starting as a creative, especially for my designers out there, my graphic designers, my web designers, um, my interior designers, a lot of you begin or maybe even stay for a long time in this hourly, hourly billing and pricing. Hourly, um, is could be fairly simple. It can have kind of minimal setup and information gathering because really you are just starting with the project. You know, you should obviously still have some scope and contract and stuff, but you're just going to track your time and then you're going to invoice the client accordingly. Um, it's great for when you're starting out and you do not have a great system, or it's very difficult for you to predict how long it's going to take you to do a particular project, okay? Especially if you are doing the type of work that has a lot of back and forth, has a lot of communications and creative collaboration homework between you and the client, and you don't know if that's going to be a 5-hour gig or a 50-hour, you do not want to have a flat fee on that, or else you can get burned, okay? And you can quickly be making nothing on a project, and in fact you're losing money on a project because of the resources or time, or especially if you're paying other people who are part of your, uh, part of your business. So, so if you— if it's hard for you to get estimates, or if you don't have a good track record yet for knowing what particular projects are, hourly could be a good way to kind of COVID your butt there. Like I said, it's really great for work that is heavy meetings, heavy collaborative back and forth. There's going to be a lot of phone calls, a lot of Skypes. Clients are going to want to check in. There's going to be a lot of rounds of revisions. Hourly can be a good fit for that. It also can be good for our Maybe we don't want to call them needy clients, but like, that's what they are. They're needy clients. Um, these are our high-touch, difficult, sensitive clients with lots of ideas and lots of energy and attention and micromanaging skills, and they are going to be up in your business. Um, you know, if you start talking with a client and they are giving you a thesis, you know, a long dissertation about their vision for the for the project and keep on sending you stuff, man, you, you gotta, you gotta set up that on hourly. That there should be a bunch of alarm bells going off, um, that this client is going to be a lot of work and you need to make sure that you will be paying and getting paid, um, well for all of that work. Okay. If the project is research intensive, okay, um, if you know that you are going to have to be doing and investing some time to get yourself up to, up to skills, um, if you're going to have to be spending time researching citing, collecting information, gathering, analyzing that information, hourly can be a good fit. Okay, so those are kind of the pros or why you should do it. Why should you not do hourly? Well, the cons are that, um, but you know, you'll need to still give some range. And if the— you know, you need to give some range in terms of hourly work. And sometimes the first time that some— that people see the ballpark number, um, if, if they don't see that number until it's on the invoice, if they are not getting kind of keeping tabs of what the project will be, if you're not kind of communicating and having some ongoing billing discussions of where we're at in terms of scope and project and pricing. If you guys just decide, hey, we're gonna do this project, and you just put your head down and you're worker bee, worker bee in your trench, and then you all finish, happy day, you send off the invoice, and that's the first your client has heard anything in a while about pricing, you are probably in a load of trouble, my friend. And it's not because you didn't do good work, it's it's because you had poor client communication and client management, especially of expectations. Okay, you cannot come up to the halfway milestone in your project and already have eaten up the whole budget. Okay, that's, that's not good. That's going to be bad news bears, and because you will likely not be getting double of what you originally quoted. Okay, that's going to be very difficult. It's going to put you in a bad spot. Certainly your client isn't probably going to feel like they've been heard and listened to and valued, and there's not going to be a clear exchange and a recognition of value in that conversation. So, okay, um, what's also hard about hourly— and this is a problem, guys, I find in my work, okay, because a lot of lawyers traditionally bill by the hour— um, is that you are penalized for being an expert and being efficient in your work, okay? Um, because normally the way people, as they grow in their career and their skills, is as they get better and better at what they do, They usually get faster. Okay, there's the amazing, you know, uh, little story about Picasso is that a woman approached him in a restaurant asking him to scribble something on a napkin, and she said she would be happy to pay whatever he felt it was worth. So Picasso complied, took him about 10 seconds, 30 seconds, whatever, scribble, scribble, scribble. He handed it, pushed it across the table. That would be $10,000. Um, that's my Picasso Spanish accent. But she said 'You did that in 30 seconds.' 'No,' Picasso said. 'It has taken me 40 years to do that.' Okay, so see what Picasso was saying there? 'Yes, that particular thing took me 30 seconds, but I could do it in 30 seconds because I've invested a lifetime in my skills.' And certainly you could probably go on that list for you. You know, do you— did you invest a lot in your education? Did you invest a lot in your career development? Did you do unpaid grunt work? Did you intern and, you know, make coffee and coffee for people, you know, have you spent a lot on you progressing with your skills? Have you been doodling with your, you know, your Tombow pens for hours and hours on end? And that's why when you sit down to do a project, you can do a good job out of the gate. Okay. You should be compensated for that. You shouldn't be penalized that because you're so good at what you do, you do it quickly. Okay. And hourly unfortunately kind of penalizes you because you have to leave money on the table because it's not being rewarded. It's not captured in this particular pricing model. Okay. The other problem with hourly is that it may not match the value to the client. Okay, this is the big one. And what do I mean by that? That's kind of an esoteric thing. I'm talking about, it's the distribution or the reach or the usage that the client is needing. Okay, so this is particularly true for my people who do brand identity, who do, you know, logos and other things, other packages for people. Is that a big question for you should be, what is this going to be used for? What kind of project is this just going to be on a business card, or is this going to be on airplanes and trucks and in Times Square someday? If it's the latter, then you are providing more value for a client, and the price should reflect that. It doesn't mean that you're being a greedy, greedy person of like trying to sniff out whether someone, you know, you're looking at whether it's someone's suit to see whether they have more money. It's an accurate reflection of the value exchange, okay? And, and that can be in your favor, okay? Okay, so that's hourly. So let's talk about flat fee pricing, okay? And this is having some sort of predictable, more project-based, you know, a line item where someone sees the proposal, they see the invoice, and it is logo, this amount of dollars, branding package, this website, blank, okay? And you just go over to the side and there's the number. There's a number there. And that's just what the number is. Okay, and everyone's on the same page. Flat fee can be great for licensing and rights management. Okay. So on the reverse of what we just said, if you are unsure, or not sure that the, that the value to the client, the way that they're going to be using it is being captured, a flat fee can do a better job of that. And you can even, you know, parse this down that says, hey, up to this amount of printing on this, it's this, if you want print rights, it's going to be this price. If you want full digital rights of this, if you want website rights, it's this. If you want social media rights, um, these things are getting more developed and more nuanced as now we are having more specific platforms in the way that we're using digital media. So, um, where this obviously wasn't a concern decades ago because we didn't have this option, people weren't purchasing this as part of their graphic design or their design process, now it is. And now it can be a discussion in terms of What are you planning on doing with this? What is the usage going to be like? And that can— the price can be reflected for that. Um, so flat fee can be great, like I said, for identity work, for work that's more— that's also going to be work for hire. By this, we— I mean like a full buyout where you are creating something and the client is going to want to own all the rights to that. Okay, and as someone who has to ask this question to my clients all the time when we're in the trademark process, you know, we're going through my questionnaire and I'm like, okay, um, so we want to protect this logo. Awesome, love the logo, super cute. Now, do you own the rights to this? Um, and of course everyone usually says without missing a beat, oh yeah, yeah, it's ours. And I said, did someone else create this logo? Oh yes, oh yeah, yes, someone else created it. Okay, do you have something in writing showing that that person who created this gave all the rights to you? Okay, so they either worked for you as a as an employee, which then it's assumed, okay, but not, not always, it's assumed that that work belongs to you. Or they were an independent contractor, a freelancer, someone you hired, and they, they gave those rights to you and it's in writing. We have something in writing that says that agreement, that they did that logo for you. That logo now belongs to the client, not the designer, which is why the client can then go and protect that and put a stamp on it that says, hey, No one else can use this. This is ours. We are staking our territory to this. Okay, so a full commercial buyout is a very different business proposition than just a license to use something, and whether that's an element or a full branding package or a design, because when you— someone does a full buyout, they can use it any way they want, in any place, in any time. And in fact, when I write these contracts, the language is in any format available or not now available, which is a weird way of saying we understand that there will probably be media that we don't even have around that right now. Okay, podcasts didn't exist 10 years ago, or not like we know them now. 20 years ago, let's be— to be safe, podcasts didn't exist. Now they do. It's safe to say in 20 years there will be some other media that we will be using or sharing or consuming that doesn't exist now. We want to make sure we have the rights for this new Jetson media that doesn't even exist yet for us to use it. Okay, so that's what we're talking about. Full buyout, full rights. You get all the little things, you know, all the sticks in your cave that you can use. Okay, a flat fee is also a great choice considering the complexity of the project. Okay, because you can consider— and but with this, you're going to need to have more information up front. So a quick phone call or like an email, you know, people putting input on like, you know, an email form or survey is not going to give you the information that you're going to want. You're going to need to have a more detailed back and forth talk with the client about what the project is, what's the vision, who is it going to be for, how long, what are the scopes, um, you know, what other information are you going to be relying on to be able to fulfill and manage this project, um, are there any other pieces or players or stakeholders that are going to be considered in this process. All of that all needs to be considered when you're giving a good bid, when you're giving a good quote for your flat fee. Flat fee can also be a little bit more fair and ethical in terms of valuing your expertise and efficiencies. Just like we talked about, you get penalized under an hourly system for being able to do things faster. Okay, what if you've invested in software or systems that make you do work faster? Shouldn't you be rewarded for that instead of penalized for that? Absolutely. Okay, if you've decided to upgrade your systems, and now you employ a virtual assistant that makes things go faster, or you have a project manager, then those costs need to be captured and be actualized in your model. So, and the way you can do that is by using a flat fee, and you can make sure that you're still having fair, ethical wages at the price point that you want to for the people that are working underneath you and for paying yourself, okay? Which obviously you need to be doing. You need to pay yourself. Go read Profit First, then come back, return and report, okay? Um, and the flat fee also can work really well for a recurring client, okay? For a client that's coming back that has ongoing work, um, clients love to have predictability and not a big open-ended. I know that's why I try to do as much flat fee in my own practice, my own law practice, as possible, because I know, I know that one of the things, one of the things of many things that people hate about working with attorneys is the billable hour. They loathe the idea that they will get on a phone call or send a text or talk to someone with a problem and there's going to be some big unknown, scary, big giant clock, atomic clock running in the background that just has dollar bills. That's just like dollar bills just like careening down some epic black hole, okay? And that's what they think will happen when you talk to an attorney. And sometimes it does feel like that, and it actually is that. So it's a completely valid fear, but that's why flat fees can be such a great way of shooing away from that and giving people predictability so that they can plan their budgets. So that they can take a look at their calendar, at their budgets, make friends with all their numbers and metrics, and be like, okay, we— what do we need to plan on this month? How much money do we need to make because we have these bills that we need to pay? How much money is this project gonna take to launch? Um, you know, let's make sure we're all making good choices and good use and allocating our resources there. Okay, okay, so that's kind of the pros and cons. Um, next I want to talk about our pricing principles. Okay, so if you've decided which one of those systems work for you, and now you're like, okay, but like, how do I actually price my thing? Here are some things that we should keep in mind. How long does a client want to license the work for? Okay, and we talked a little bit about this, but that's a consideration. Okay. And that's something that you can narrow down. Okay, licenses will typically be at least for a year. It's very rare that I see any kind of licenses for art, any kind of creative work that's under a year. And they could be longer. They can go to 3 years, 5 years, 10 years. Okay, they can be perpetual, but a perpetual license is pretty much like a buyout. Okay, so in what context is the artwork or the content of the work going to be used? Okay, what's the usage? Like we said, is it print, web, broadcast, full commercial use? Those would all be considered. If the job is going to be reprinted, will there be an additional fee for the reprint that will be going back to the original to be going to the artist or the illustrator? Do they want an unlimited license, or do they want to own the rights outright? Okay, like we said, do they want a full commercial buyout, like a work-for-hire situation? Are these rights transferable if the company is sold? Again, if it's the latter case, if someone is getting a commercial buyout, then those are their rights, and they can decide what they want to do with it, including packaging that up, you know. So if you design a logo for Nike, Nike's going to want the rights to that, And then if Nike decides that they want to sell off that whole division, they can do that, and the logo can be part and will likely be part of that brand and that brand identity and the business goodwill, and that will all be wrapped up in part of those, those assets that they're selling. Okay, what kind of company is this? Okay, and this is, um, I know sometimes this makes people uncomfortable in terms of they feel like they're taking advantage of people or they are you know, they're, they're cheating people just because they, they know they have money. Um, and I want to push back on that idea for you, and that, like we said, it's not about trying to fleece people when they have money, but it is a reflection of value. And that's all that pricing is, okay, is— and it should be a reflection of value, okay? You should price based on the value to the client, not the project, okay? I'm gonna say that again: price based on the value to the client. And if you don't know the value to the client, then you need to figure that out. Okay, so what kind of company or brand are you doing this work for? Is it a mom-and-pop business? Is it a small company? Okay, where the value is going to be significantly lower. If you are doing a logo for a local dry cleaning company, then the value is going to be lower to them. Okay, all the way around. They're probably going to use it on some things on the front of their store, maybe some business cards, and maybe on— they're gonna, you know, put it on some baggies that they put for their dry cleaning and stuff. That's great, but that is not going to be the same value, and nor should it be the same price if you are pricing for a new, you know, energy drink company, um, that has, you know, millions of dollars in sales, that hosts its own, you know, X Games, that's, you know, a sponsor, and that uses its logo and brand identity all over the world to promote its brand. Okay. That's going to be a different price. And because it's a different value, because the larger company has a lot more assets and also has a lot more risk, and they want to know that you're reflecting that value and that your expertise is acknowledging— because that, that project is also going to be a lot more work for you, okay? It should involve a lot more of research into what the brand is. You probably have to do market testing, probably maybe some focus groups. Like, that's the kind of level of skill, um, and product project management that would be expected when you're servicing a company like that and charging thousands and hundreds of thousands of dollars for brand identity work, okay, for a logo. Okay, um, so the other question in terms of looking at who you're servicing and make sure that you're reflecting that value is, um, and this goes into when you are asked to give discounts or to give some sort of special deals and trying to press back against that, um, Is there any other reason that you'd be willing to decrease your fee or would make sense for pricing? And be careful about this because this is all too easy to get in a trap where you are giving discounts and discounts and lowering your prices for this project and this project. And everyone has a Sally Sob Story about how they can't pay and they're super strapped for cash. And, um, you know, or can't, can't you just do work for exposure? They're going to give you amazing exposure— huge air quotes to that on exposure. If someone tells you that you're going to work for exposure, run to the hills, okay? You know, give them the middle finger. No, you don't need to give them the middle finger, but, um, but yeah, be super skeptical of exposure all the way around. Because guess what? You know what you can't pay with for exposures? You can't pay your internet bill, or, you know, you can't pay for your laptop, you can't pay your people, you can't, you know, settle your PayPal invoices or the IRS with exposure. Those checks won't work, okay? So you need to make sure that you're making money and looking at your numbers. And sometimes that means being being honest and being better on top of your numbers because that will give you the confidence to price the way you need to. Okay. If you know what bottom line you need to be hitting every month, if you know what your profit needs to be and what you need to do to cover your expenses, and then you're adding tax and then you're adding your salary on there because you need to be paying yourself, then that's a starting point, not the end of the discussion, a starting point for where you should be charging. Okay. That doesn't mean that you only look at that and then you say that's the amount because that's the absolute bottom floor of what you need to be charging. That's just information for you to start that conversation, okay? Um, so, but like I said, maybe it's something for a passion project and you're willing to discount your fee for that, okay? That's okay. That's up to you because you're the boss, and that's part of the reason why you work for yourself is you get to make those calls, okay? Maybe it's a nonprofit and something that you care about and you're willing to, um, to negotiate and give them a different rate. That's also okay. Maybe you want to establish a connection with an ad agency or company, and you are willing to take a discount for that. Again, I'm not trying to be insensitive that when you're— especially when you're starting out, whether it's a new product or service or industry, or whether you're just frankly new to doing what you do, you're not likely going to be able to collect top dollar of what you'd like to in the beginning. You sometimes will have to do some work for free, some work discounted. I totally understand. That's, that's part of the hero's artist Bohemian journey. Okay. But my point is, you have to be careful not to stay there, okay? Because it can be easy and comfortable to stay there and not to push yourselves and to advocate for yourself with other people, okay? And advocate for your value. Because the first time that you send out an email letting people know that your rates are increasing, there might be some backlash on that. People might be like, really? Or I'm surprised. Or, huh, I don't know. I don't know about that. And you have to be in a good place, okay, to manage all of that. Because there's a couple things that are going to happen. Your brain is going to tell you, okay, that you're a bad person, you're a greedy person, um, you don't deserve that, you're an imposter. Um, that's where it's likely going to go, okay? So you need to make sure and do the work mentally so that you yourself are in a good position that you, you don't go there and you say, nope, I am, I am good at what I do. I have great skills, and I am getting better. And the reason why I'm charging this new price while I'm raising my prices is because— and you need to have an answer there, okay? There needs to be a reason. Because I'm increasing my value in this way, because I've just taken this new course, and I'm now offering these services, or because I've, you know, I'm now doing things in this different way, I'm optimizing my systems and able to care for my clients at a higher level than I was before. And now this price is reflecting that. Okay, so, you know, that's going to be very personal to you and what your service is and what your client, what your product and offering is. Um, but the point is, is that you have to do that mental work and you really need to be ready. And ideally, I would have you write that down and put it somewhere where you can see, especially if you are getting into these conversations either on the phone or by email or wherever else that you're doing your pricing, um, discussion, so that you're ready. Because these questions will come and you want to have a good answer to them. Okay. The thing of like, I'm raising my prices just because I've been doing it 5 years instead of 2 is not super compelling, okay? And most of the time, okay, clients are going to be fine with it. All right, they're going to be totally fine with it. They're not going to love it. No one loves it. No one loves paying more money. But that has everything to do with them and nothing to do with you. Okay, you can't take it personally. It's just business. Okay, doesn't have anything to do with the way you are as a complex, empathetic, human being, okay, who loves other people and likes to connect to other people. It's about you providing value to other people in the world. And you can't do that. You cannot provide that kind of value if you're not taking care of your bottom line, if you're not taking care of yourself. The buck stops with you, with you, okay? You are a business owner, so you have to do the work on the front end and the back end to reflect that. And then you have to communicate that value to other people. All right? That's not on someone else. The onus is not on the client for them to get that. You are in charge of communicating that to them. And if they aren't getting that right now, if they don't get the value, then you haven't done a good enough job and you need to do better. Okay? I believe in you. I know you can do it, but you can do better and you should do better. Okay? All right. So, um, let's kind of close with this. Um, our kind of overriding principles, our takeaways for today. Number 1, we are going to price based on the value to the client. Okay? And again, this comes with both our all kinds of offerings, products, digital offerings, and services. And we're going to— based on the values of the client or the customer, okay? Not what your competitors are charging and then take off a dollar, okay? I'm not saying it's not useful or helpful to see what market rates are for whatever people are in similar spaces to you, but that, again, that is the beginning of this discussion, of this taxonomy, of this research and process, not the end, okay? It's not one step. Oh, 'Someone else is charging $50, so I'm going to charge $49 or $51.' Okay, that has very little to do with what kind of value you're giving to your people, okay, your audience members and your consumers. Number 2, pricing is a signal. We touched a little bit about this, okay. It's a signal of the value that you're communicating and you're giving for the problems that you're solving to your people. So what signal are you sending about your brand and you and your work, okay? Is this a $50 product and solution to their problems, or is it a $500? Okay, a lot of that, most if not all of that, has to do with the work that you've done. Have you made this into a $500 product? Okay, because of the work that came before, because of the way that you're delivering services, because the way it's being marketed and branded and the systems that are supporting it, um, and the, the little indicators that are telling other people what kind of value they're getting. All right, that's the difference between a purse that's at Walmart and Louis Vuitton. Okay, at the end of the day, it's still a purse, but why are they so different? Okay, well, you could say, well, Louis Vuitton stitches it by hand and it's got, you know, uh, intellectual property that goes behind this that people can't recreate, and it's all done with real leather, um, and Walmart is not. Okay, um, so why— what have they done to indicate that value and communicated that value to their customers? Why does Walmart go after customers that they want and Louis Vuitton go after the customers that they want. Okay, and what does pricing signal to people in terms of this is what we believe in and if you believe in these things too like we do and if you like the story and our story of how we're going to solve your problems like we do, then this product is for you, this service is for you. Okay, so you got to kind of dig, you know, a lot into the psychology, into your why and come up with some good stuff there that's going to help you reflect that pricing because pricing is way more than just a number, okay, on an invoice. Okay, and the third principle here, um, takeaway is that pricing will shift and evolve, as will you. Thank goodness, okay? Thank goodness that whatever you started at the beginning of your career, um, of your career track is not what you're going to be charging at the end, okay? Things will evolve. You'll know better, so you'll do better, and that's okay. You don't need to beat yourself up or put any shame about it. It just, it is what it is and you're, you're knowing better and so you're doing better and that's all great, okay? It's all part of the human experience, business entrepreneurship journey. Ding! That's such great news, okay? Remember that pricing does have a domino effect and does affect other things. It affects how you feel about yourself and your business and the offerings that you have. It has an effect on how you treat your employees and you train your employees and the helpers that you have in your business. It has an effect on your customers and how they feel when they get to be part of your company culture and your brand and your business and offering. Okay, someone who just launches a $10,000 website that they purchased from you is going to feel different than probably someone who just bought a $100 template from you. Okay, and they're— I'm not throwing any shade on people who are selling $100 templates. That, that can be a great business and a great fit. But it's a different value proposition, okay? It's a different kind of client. It's a different story that you're solving for, and you need to know and figure out for yourself what business you want to be in, okay? But don't undercut yourselves, your skills, or your industry, okay? When people take work for free, when people say, okay, I guess so, I'll take some money off, when they don't push back when someone says, hmm, or are you— can we come down on that number a little bit? And someone says, no, in fact, for this value and the type of project that you have, this number would be more in line with my services. Okay. When you hold firm, it helps everyone else around you. Okay. Hold firm and make sure that they can make an honest living and they can take care of themselves and their families and kind of live the kind of life they want to live and achieve the kind of goals they want to— they want to achieve. Okay. So we all have a responsibility as creative entrepreneurs to help each other out. Okay. And that doesn't mean that, again, you can't be kind and to give a discount if and when you want to, but I would, you know, try to push back on that, on the urge to do that for reasons that don't— are in line with your values. Okay, I would say be true to yourself there and to just be thoughtful and know that it's okay for you to protect yourself and your business so that you can serve more people. Okay. And if you undercut yourself enough that you get spread too thin, if you get burned out, then guess what? You can't give that value to anybody. If you can't take care of yourself, if you can't make money doing this, then no one gets to have your cute earrings anymore, or your blankets, or your t-shirts, or your interior design services. Okay, so now you, you have— your value goes down to zero that you're providing in this particular way. Not your value as a whole human being, obviously you're worth cannot be touched by activities like this. But I'm just saying that the ability you have to impact people's lives and to— and the exchange of value that you get to have, which is what money really is, is recognizing that value, um, is diminished and that capacity is diminished. So don't do that to yourself, okay? If you want to be able to help people, then you have to protect yourself so that you can be in a position to help people, so that you can keep your lights on and pay your bills and pay yourself and pay the IRS and pay your helpers and do all the other things you need to do and pay for your babysitting and your house cleaner. And, you know, do the math, guys. Do the math and add tax. All right. That's where I'm going to end on that. All right. Thanks so much for joining me in this discussion. Again, if you want access to more info about this, check the show notes. Also check my link at BrittanyRettell.com/47. And I wanted to share a quick review with the plea please go write a review for the podcast. Um, I know it probably seems like I talk about this all the time, but I don't have very many reviews. And I know you guys are super busy, and so I, I get that. I totally get that. But if you can do me a huge favor, and after you listen to this episode, if you have not done so yet, jump over to iTunes. Okay, it means you have to pull it up in iTunes, either on your phone or on your desktop. Um, you have to just log in and give me a quick review, whether it's some stars, you have something to say really quick, take you 1 minute or less, I promise. I'd really, really appreciate it. So here's one from Little Miss Green. She says, one of my favorite podcasts. Brittany's podcast helps me to feel more confident owning my business— that's in caps— and helps me clarify where I need to grow. She takes a topic that can normally feel dry and intimidating and makes it both entertaining and approachable. I recommend this podcast to every creative entrepreneur and small business owner that I know. Thank you so much for sharing that. So And if you guys have been— your interest has been piqued in our pricing discussion today and want to know, okay, well, how can I— once I have this number, how can I make sure that I'm getting this number? The answer is in a good client service agreement. Okay, if you are doing client services, one-on-one people, and you want to be protecting that revenue stream, protecting that relationship, clarifying these expectations like what the things that we've talked about today, making sure people understand What is the process going to be like? What if the client has changes or revisions? What if our scope gets out of control? Okay, and we want to protect against scope creep. What about if they cancel? Okay, what, what do they have to pay, or how are we going to kill this project, and how do you make sure you get the money you need out of it so you're just not totally hosed? Okay, all of that is covered in my client service agreement template that I sell at creativecontracts.co. So if you don't have a decent one of those or in business, or if you have one that like maybe fell off of a truck and from your professor or from a Facebook group or from a friend who doesn't exactly do what you do and it's been a few years and you're not quite sure what's in it, then you should get mine. Okay? You should get mine and have a really clean attorney-drafted creative industry-tested version. And it also comes with training. Okay? I do this, which is I ScreenFlow and I walk you through paragraph by paragraph so that you feel really comfortable that you know what's in your contract. Okay? And what you can change, what you can modify, what you can take out if it doesn't apply to you, and what you should leave in even if it starts getting long. Okay, I'm looking at you, my typography graphic designers who don't like looking at ugly contracts and then just start deleting things with wild abandon. Please don't do that. And you won't do that because you're going to understand why this stuff is important and what it's doing to protect you and your bottom line. Okay, and that's what we are here for. So thank you guys so much for joining me today on Lawn Wit. Remember that you are a business owner, so you should own your business in every sense of the word. Thanks so much for joining me today.