Thriving as an Introvert Entrepreneur with Morra Aarons-Mele - 41

Law and Wit Episode 41: How to Thrive as an Introvert Entrepreneur with Maura Arendsmele. Welcome to Law and Wit: Creative Counsel for Entrepreneurs. I'm your host, Brittany Rettell, mother of 4, entrepreneur, naptime lawyer, and attorney for creative entrepreneurs. I'm here to share inspiration and action so that you can tackle your business blocks and confidently own your business in every sense of the word. Thank you so much for being here. Hello listeners and welcome back. And I am so excited to share our guest today. Um, I have on here Maura Arendts-Mealy and she is the author of Hiding in the Bathroom: An Introvert's Roadmap to Getting Out There. And she's the founder of an award-winning social impact agency, Women Online. She also hosts a podcast, Hiding in the Bathroom, and has created a successful influencer network, The Mission List. She was the founding political director for BlogHer.com and has written for Harvard Business Review, Huffington Post, Moms Writing, Forbes, Wall Street Journal, New York Times, The Guardian. She is just incredible. And she's a graduate of Brown University and the Harvard E. Kennedy School and lives in Boston, Massachusetts. So welcome, Maura.

Hi. How are you?

We're great. We're so welcome to have you on Lon Witt. And Maura is someone that I met at the alt.summit last year and had a chance to sit Next door, I think we were doing like our craft. It was like a craft time slash, you know, talking business time, which is really probably only something you could pull off at Alt, but it seemed completely normal, you know, to be making these really beautiful neon pink, like elephant-esque expired necklaces and also to be talking, you know, digital marketing strategy with people.

But that's why I love, I love the Alt community and, and frankly, you know, all the online content creator communities that I've been lucky to be part of for, oh my gosh, so many years, since 2005 I think it is, because we can craft at the same time as we're talking about our businesses.

Exactly. We're not afraid of just having something fit neatly on a business card. In fact, we, I think, embrace the and, and, and, and all the multi-passionate and everything that comes along with it, right?

Yes.

For sure. Well, I wanted to start out with, give us a little bit of your kind of entrepreneurship origin story. Because you, you know, you've run now and started, you know, several successful businesses, but you've had, you know, a different track in terms of the things you've been involved with and lessons learned along the way. And I would just love to hear a little bit about what kind of brought you to what you're doing now and how did you discover what it is that you really like to do.

You know, what's funny is I always— I mean, I'm like many women, I think, and men, an accidental entrepreneur. I became an entrepreneur because I quit corporate America. I just couldn't take it anymore because I am a major introvert and, you know, really a hermit. I call myself a hermit because I found working— I worked in very competitive environments in New York and then in London and then in Washington, D.C., and I was, you know, I was sort of an executive on the rise, first in digital marketing and then in politics, in political consulting, and I just, every day I went to work, I felt like I was going into battle, you know. I, it was very hard for me temperamentally. I just was not cut out for it. And I just, you know, I didn't have the support around me. I think maybe if I had had a different level of support or been in a different place in my life, maybe this story would be different. But I just couldn't do it anymore. I was unhappy. And so I quit my last corporate, you know, job working for other people in 2006 and just started freelancing like so many of us, you know, do. We, we don't know what we're gonna do, but we just know that we have to bring income in, so we use our skills and our Rolodex and consult. And I just found that I loved it. I was doing the exact same work I'd always done but doing it on my terms from my little kitchen table. And that consulting practice grew so that I started a small business, which is now Women Online, and we create digital campaigns that mobilize women.

We're a—

I say that we're a strategic communications firm. You know, we do 21st century communications, which is digital first, right? You know, the, the line between what is online and offline marketing and what is PR versus social media communications, it's all blurred.. It's about really strong content, good messaging, but it's digital first. So I feel like we're a 21st century communications company now.

Exactly. And really, who really cares what you label it? The question is, is it working? Is it getting the message out? Like, let's not get too hung up in terms of if the right department head, you know, has the right title versus is the messaging getting out? You know, is the content— are we meeting the needs and telling the stories that we need to be telling?

That's right. That's right, where people are, where our audiences are.

Yeah, exactly. And recognizing that there's a different audience or different platforms, and depending on what you're trying to reach and what your, you know, what your story is, what your messaging is, being very thoughtful about that. Yeah, totally. So I love, um, you know, just that you knew yourself, you know, not that you had to go through, you know, a hard time and challenging. And, um, and I think that there's— it's, it's hard to say like, well, is that— that is— that's a problem with the way that we do business, that we only reward, you know, the extroverted or the, you know, outer networking that introverts sometimes do have such a hard time in finding their place and using their gifts to be rewarded, and it seems an uphill battle. But I love that you got to that place where you were so self-aware that you could step back and say, "You know what? I'm good at what I do, but I'm not being served in having to do it maybe this way, and is there another option?" I wasn't self-aware at the time.

I was clinically depressed. I mean, there was not much no, no, no. Now, many years later, I can look back You know, I think it's not only about being an introvert. There are many introverts who go and run billion-dollar companies and become president, you know. And I think it's— it's part of it is, is people who are more introverted might struggle with a modern office culture. Bright lights, open-plan office, so much buzz all day, people always in your face, lots and lots of meetings, you know. So that's real. But I think some of us are just wired, you know, we're just a little bit sensitive, a little more high tone. And, you know, I think for me also, just the sense of having to fight a lot of office politics was very challenging for me as well. And temperamentally, I am much more cut out to do my own thing and make my own rules and manage my own time.

Right, yeah, and to be accountable for you in terms of the productivity and having been able to be in charge of what the outputs really look like and not being stuck on what am I doing to be seen doing, which ends up being usually so much a big part of working in a corporate organization.

Oh my God, you'll appreciate this, Brittany, but I was at dinner last week with a law partner who's at a big firm and he said, you know, I have to sit in traffic every day for an hour and a half each way because That's what we do. We show up between 8:30 and 9 and we leave between 6 and 6:30. That's what we do.

So you spend 3 hours to be seen. I mean, that's ridiculous.

And he knows it's ridiculous.

Yeah.

Yeah. But, but the system is so entrenched.

Yeah. That, that's what you, and that's what, that's what a good work looks like. That's what a good attorney looks like or a good, you know, investment broker or someone, a hedge fund manager, whatever it is, or insert whatever your, you know, your corporate title might be, is it shows up in this, is this narrow way. And you know how silly that we're wasting our lives away sitting in our cars, right?

Not doing work.

Not doing work. Yeah. You know, until we get to like, you know, the self-driving cars, and I'm sure the commuting people will be the first on that to be like, sign me up so I can take a nap. I can get started on my day, write my blog post, listen, you know, read my emails, do all the things beforehand. But yeah, I think that that's, you know, it's a really good thing to call yourself on in terms of how much is it doing just because that's the way it's done. And certainly law is awful in that they are so, you know, so entrenched in terms of backwards thinking that, you know, we always look to precedent and how it's been done, and this is what you wear, and this is how you do work, and this is how you train new attorneys, that you're not able to really look at, is this how our clients need to be served? Is this the only way that we can solve their problems? Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. So, okay, so you started and you got your consulting gig going and it started humming along. Um, why, why did you decide to work with women? Why, why directing their efforts there? What was about that that spoke to you?

I had been a political consultant, but before that I worked at ivillage.com, which was, um, sadly is no more, but for many years was really, was technically the number one community for women on the internet, you know, and had these great message boards back in the day.

And I remember iVillage, I remember the message boards.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it was— and it was, you know, I was a— I was young when I worked there, but it was mind-blowing to me that strangers would come together on the internet and become such good friends and discuss such intimate topics, right? Everything from childbirth to divorce and everything in between. You know, anonymity plus intimacy was what the CEO of iVillage, Candace Carpenter, always called it. And so that just stuck with me. It was so powerful. And then, you know, when I worked in politics, I learned that women make all the decisions. Women are what count. And at the same time, I met Lisa Stone, the co-founder of BlogHer, which, you know, was again like iVillage, just revolutionary for its time. Around 2005, I think it started, in that it brought women who blog together in community at conferences and gave a revenue model, right, through ad sales. And I became a political blogger for BlogHer and just saw the power of what happened when you used the internet and digital media and what we now call social media to elevate women's voices. And I just thought, this is me. This is like, this is what I was born to do.

This is my jam.

This is my jam. And the truth is, as we all know, and I won't bore us with the statistics, but Most major decisions are driven by women, certainly household decisions. Unfortunately, large-scale societal and systemic decisions are still driven by men, right? The patriarchy. And that's where I wanted to work, that intersection. I wanted to help progressive organizations elevate what's good for women and what's good for society in women's voices, not around necessarily selling shampoo, but selling social change, right?

You know, where, where is the public and private meet and where is that intersection and how can we adjust that, um, in terms of greater social issues? Yeah. And change. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Very cool. Um, so in terms of working in that space and specifically, you know, making sure that we are cognizant of women's voices and what's impacting around women, um, what are the challenges that you've seen as just being, um, I guess, you know, even just working with that audience and then being a female entrepreneur yourself? Um, can you speak a little to that?

I mean, I think that the challenges are so many if you're a woman online these days, you know, physical danger and, you know, sort of the toxic culture of the internet is something I certainly probably don't have to talk about this audience with. You know, every time you speak up online, you're sticking your neck out and you're risking things, right? I really believe that. And women who do speak up are brave, you know. So that's very real. I think also the pace of change is really overwhelming, right? And trying to figure out a business model around digital content creation is always really, really hard. Getting paid your worth as a woman is really, really hard. So, you know, I think that online culture is reflective of our larger sort of societal challenges. Being a woman entrepreneur is hard because especially if you work in the women's space, um, you know, you can really fight to get paid your worth. And I've, I feel like I've fought that for many years, and it's getting better, but I wouldn't have it any other way, right?

Exactly. So, um, I, I love what you discuss— you mentioned about, um, just, you know, being— making sure that you're, you know, asking and getting paid for your value. Um, I find that a lot of, um, a lot of the clients that I work with, especially who are in maybe the beginning stages of monetizing their content and in turning what may have been a hobby or a side hustle or an interest into, you know, a larger business endeavor, um, have a hard time, um, making those asks, you know, doing those first few pitches, or, you know, um, feeling like, am I, am I selling out, or am I asking too much, or are my prices fair? And I'm usually finding that, you know, systemically they're, they're underpricing, they're not asking for enough in terms of what they're doing. Um, What advice would you give? I know you're usually on the opposite side, that you're the one hiring influencers and looking to partner with them. But what do you think that you can do as a content creator and influencer? What tips, mindset should they be working on to maybe help with some of that asking?

I think that there's two pieces. One is to do your research and know your value because you want to be within the margin of error in your space. And so I think finding a space where you can have open conversations about what other people are making and not being scared to talk about money is really important. So that's step one. And I think, you know, the more people you talk to, the more comfortable you get, both with talking frankly about money, but also in understanding your worth. You know, it's a process and it takes practice. I will be talking about this at Alt actually coming up, but no one is born being able to walk into a room and sell the room. We think that there are these magical salespeople and business leaders who are just, emerge from the womb able to stand up and command an audience and get paid gazillions of dollars, et cetera, et cetera. No, it's a skill that we all learn and it takes practice and it takes market research. Frankly, it takes rejection. Um, and that is the hard, honest truth. I think that one thing that's really important to think about as you're starting out, and I talk about this in my book a lot, is, you know, what you're going to go for almost as a loss leader to establish your credibility in the marketplace. Um, I have worked, you know, and I've been doing this work for decades, I have worked for free at times. I have really lowered my rates when I've worked for causes or clients that I'm I'm so passionate about or that I know will make me more desirable, right? Will sort of up my game and my credibility.

Yeah, that there's some social capital there, yeah.

That's exactly right, it's all about social capital. And then there are times when I've been offered a lot of money and I've said no, either because it will diminish social capital or it's something I don't believe in, it's something I would be embarrassed to tell people I'm working on, or you just get that bad feeling in your gut that this is a bad idea. So part of it also is understanding your personal boundaries around money. When you feel like, oh, I just gotta do this, I don't care about money, and when you also need to say, nope, you know what, you gotta pay the rent this month, here's what you need to do, and giving yourself that sort of reality check, because I think a lot of us tell a lot of myths to ourselves around money.

Right, exactly. No, I really like that, that, you know, to be, that there is certainly, there is a delicate balance there between your ideals and what your work means to you, and, you know, maybe some of those things that you've set out kind of in your own personal work manifesto, but also recognizing the reality is, hey, you need to be profitable, you need to have liquidity. You—

we all gotta pay—

we all gotta pay the bills, people. We all have to pay the bills. Um, and so are we making sure that we are putting ourselves in a place where we can be professional and provide value, um, even in places that maybe it's not our first choice in terms client or the service or the product or something.

Well, and also I think understanding that the time it takes to develop business is worth money. And so a lot of us, I think, also who work for ourselves spend too much time chasing things that are never going to happen. We spend a lot of time investing in a project that's going to end really soon so that we're right back at square one instead of investing in a project that will last for months and months or even a year, you know, so we have that cushion. So I think it's really, really important to what I call, you know, understand your monthly nut, which is how much money do I have to bring in every month, right?

And how can I like that?

Yeah. And ideally, this is from my perspective as someone who owns a service business, but I think it probably applies for influencers and content creators. You know, if you can have a long-term relationship client, that would bring in a certain percentage of your monthly nut that you can count on, that is worth investing in, right? Because that is collateral that will pay, and then you'll have more free time to go after those passion projects or the exciting short-term project. So really think strategically about the time you're going to spend on business development and how you're investing that time, and, and just frankly how much money you have to bring in every month.

Yeah, and you need to know that number. It's not so—

it's a number.

So it's a, it's a real number. So don't BS yourself with like, I'm not good at numbers, or like, you know, I mean, all the excuses that I hear if people are like, that's not my jam. And, you know, especially I think creatives sometimes fall into this trap, especially if they're, you know, you're a maker or, you know, someone who considers themselves a very creative person, um, that you just, you don't have the luxury of not knowing that number for yourself. So, you know, read Jen Sincero's books, you know, do whatever you need to, but you need to, you need to know that number.

You need to know that number and you also need to know where to invest your time to make that number happen. A bird in the hand is worth 3 in the bush when you're starting out.

Exactly, exactly. Amen. I completely agree with that. Which is also really relevant, especially if you're in a service-based business, that you need to be tracking your time too, which is another mistake I think a lot of entrepreneurs, a lot of creative entrepreneurs fall into is that they're not being cognizant of how much they're investing in certain projects or doing certain processes, and they're not considering that, oh, well, I just spent, you know, how many hours on this? And, you know, when I do the math, that's not a very good rate of return for how much I'm charging.

You should know your profitability per client or per project, because what some things— and I have found this, learned this the hard way in my business over the years— that seem like you're getting a big chunk of money, you spend so much time on that your profitability is really low, where you might get something that's a much smaller fee but you're not working as hard on it, right? And so I think that that's a really good metric to think about as well, is, you know, how profitable in terms of my time or other people's time that I'm paying for is this piece of work.

Exactly. Yeah, no, I really agree with that. That's such an important point. So, you know, tell me, as you've been, you know, as you completely, you know, you're immersed in this space of, you know, digital marketing and online and what's changing, What do you see as kind of big trends going into this new year, 2019? What do you see that's working for people and maybe what do you see that's not working as much anymore?

You know, I've been involved with a bunch of old, old school bloggers on Facebook, you know, looking at old photos and it was actually beautiful, like when Senator Kirsten Gillibrand announced that she was thinking about running for president, someone I pulled up some old photos of when she came to the BlogHer conference in 2010 and we had this sort of moment. Then I think also when Babbel.com announced that it was closing a couple of weeks ago.

I love Babbel. Yes. I know, right? So sad. In fact, I remember Design Mom, I mean Gabrielle Blair, leader of the alt conference, that was one of her mainstays. She used to post on there all the time.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, a lot of women who we really look up to got their start. You know, thanks to Catherine Connors, her bad mother in large part, writing for Babylon. So there's these moments when, you know, someone like me who's been in this space for so long is looking back and thinking, I sort of miss the old internet where we thought and wrote a lot, and it wasn't all frankly just like a giant fire hose of constant content and ephemeral content, you know. And I, so I've been thinking a lot about that, like what is the value of thoughtful long-form content? And I think that that's why podcasts frankly are so popular, because people want to have more intimate and thoughtful conversations. The other thing that I think is, is a trend but has real implications in society is that Facebook in particular, but all the social platforms are not our friends, right? They are not our friends. We are their products. We are learning that the hard way, right?

Cambridge Analytica and all the stuff in between, right? Unless you— unless you had any myths that, you know, they're doing this out of the goodness of their heart, which, that's fine, they got to make money, but let's, let's just call a spade a spade, okay?

Exactly. Like, we use them, great, they use us. Fine. But, and we love them, we love them, we're addicted to them. Fine. But let's be honest about that and let's not be overly dependent on them, you know. And this also comes back to the old school days. I want to see a world, and this is why I'm telling everyone I know to invest in their own platform, right? Whether that's an email newsletter, whether that's a podcast, a website, a blog, you know, own your own platform because we've seen too many friends and big media companies and governments fall victim to the whims of, you know, of the platforms. And they're not our friends.

No, they have a mission and a purpose, and it may align with yours for a time and a season, and it may not. And so And people can rail against the algorithm as if it was some person. It's not. It's all about improving user experience. But that might be at the expense of what it is you're offering. And that may be in your advantage. And then the, you know, the winds will change and it won't be. And you always have to remember that you don't own that. You don't own that access. And if you don't have an email address, if you don't have people who know where to find you, then you really don't have them.

I'm still bullish on email. You know, I mean, we all love to hate it, but The truth is, it is, um, I think that and your SMS are the most reliable and intimate way to reach your audience. Um, and so I'm, I'm, I really believe that you need to have control and invest in your own platform.

Yeah, I, I agree with you there. So, which is why obviously we're such bright businesswomen that we have our own podcast. So, you know, we're fine.

Well, you know what, I got fired, so my podcast wasn't my own podcast. It was, um, with Forbes, which is an amazing brand. But then they fired me and that sucked. And so, you know, I also had to learn the lesson the hard way last year that was like, okay, you know what, invest in your own content. So we're always learning lessons, right?

Yeah, it never, it never stops. We just hope that we're learning more interesting lessons and have more interesting problems, right? And not the same ones, hopefully. That's, that's, that's the rub. So I love that, you know, the long-form content, going back, you know, to the good old days of thinking before we're writing. And, you know, how are we writing is what we're serving up, you know, really serving our audience and not falling for maybe cheap tricks and cheap thrills.

Yeah, that's right. And you know what, that's not only writing. I mean, I know a lot of people, and I wish in my next life I'm going to be a visual person. I want to be a designer. But, you know, it's thoughtful design, it's thoughtful, thoughtful content. Thoughtful content, slowing the pace, I think would be a blessing, especially as mothers. I'm just like, oh my God, can we just please slow the pace of everything?

So, so yeah, exactly. Okay, well, now that you've, you've, you've broached that, talking about, you know, being a mama and what that means, you know, in working in this digital age, what's working for you? You know, talk about kind of— I know we all hate that word of like balance, but what's working for you in terms of, um, doing a good job where it matters to you with the people who you care about?

Oh geez, isn't that the question? Um, so, so I many years ago met a woman named Kali Yost who is my, you know, one of my personal sort of gurus and mentors, and she coined a term work-life fit. So I don't believe in balance, but I do believe that finding your work-life fit is the key to everything. And what Kali will say is that work-life fit is like snowflake— is like a snowflake. Everyone's is different, and you can't judge anyone else's work-life fit. My husband is a little bit of a workaholic. Like, he loves to work, he loves to be out and about, he loves board meetings and all these crazy things that I would rather die than do. He loves cocktail parties and networking events. That's his work-life fit, right? Like, as Oprah would say, that is him living his best life. My work-life fit, I'm very clear about, is I like to be sort of a couple days, you know, I don't mind being out and about in the world schmoozing and, you know, talking and selling But mostly I like to be in my home office. I like to have many hours alone every day to think. I like to stop work sort of in the afternoon and hang with my kids for a bit and then work later at night or early in the morning. Like, if I, if I had my dream, I wouldn't ever work sort of core work hours, right? During the day is not when I want to work.

It'd be, you know, different time. I, yeah, I feel you. You know, I had a client call at 9:30 last night and I could tell that the person was a little on the other end was like, and I'm like, is this an okay time? She's like, yeah. And I'm like, sorry, not sorry, but I've got young kids at home. And so for me, I gotta work unusual hours, but sometimes that works for other people and they're busy and those times during the day don't work for them. So, you know.

Right. I mean, it's honestly about having open conversations, you know, and I think also having strong communication between clients or team members so that we all know how each other like to work. That's another dream that I have that we can all understand. Like, you know, I'm like really bad if I have back-to-back meetings for 5 hours. So could I have, you know, maybe 2 hours of meeting-free time so I can actually do my work, and then I'll come back to you and I'll be fresh? Imagine a world where we could actually talk about that, right? Um, so work-life fit, not balance. And then you can really think about when you know your work-life fit, how to build it, right? And so I think another thing that I'm, I'm really big on, and my kids are, you know, they're getting a little bit older and they don't need me in the same way, is I sort of want to be selfish in my career again and, um, get very ambitious in a way that I wasn't able to when my kids were all in diapers. And that's kind of fun and scary to think about. And so It's always an evolving process, but I'm very, very big on— sorry, that's my daughter.

That's all right. That's, that's a great segue. Maybe she thought her ears were burning. But, um, but yeah, I think that that's great to recognize that there are seasons. And I think that's particularly true for women. And, um, you know, that's, that's a blessing and a curse of just being a woman and being the role that we have and being a mother and what that means. And And by listening to ourselves, and like you said, being thoughtful about when do I work well, what do I need to do my best work to be fulfilled in all the different areas of my life that are important, and then what does that look like. And then hopefully we're in a space where we feel like we can advocate and get that for ourselves, and whether that's a balance of working for ourselves and working with other people or finding some combination thereof.

Well, and I think also, I mean, what I would say to every woman out there listening who has financial responsibilities is you need to protect yourself, right? You need to, you know, we all talk about burnout, we talk about self-care. It's a long game. And so the thing about Work-Life Fit that's so amazing is I almost see it as preventative training, as if you were an athlete, right? It's like, it's like stretching and yoga. It is so you can go the long haul, you know? Right. So many of us don't build in protections for ourselves and then we break and we wonder why. So I'm all about building in every single day the buffers for yourself so that hopefully you can keep it going and put those kids through college.

Exactly. Have, have those little release valves in your life, you know. Yeah, for sure, all the way around. Now I think that that's, that's really wise advice. I love that work-life fit.

So yeah, yeah, Kali Yost, check her out, she's amazing.

Okay, well, definitely look into that. So, um, well, um, and you talked a little bit about, you know, that you've worked in politics and you still work with some political clients in, um, in some of your work online with, uh, with Women Work and Women Online. Um, tell me about, um, you know, I would love to hear more about, because I know you worked on the Malala campaign and, and helping, um, share her message. Um, is that one that you can talk about, or there's another one that you have, a favorite one that I, I will accept a substitute? But that's one that I would love to hear a bit more about.

Yeah, I mean, we worked with Malala Fund a few years ago when Malala— she hadn't yet gone to university, and there was a documentary coming out about her life called I Am Malala. And, you know, I think one of the things that was most rewarding about that work was the chance for a lot of women in our community and parents everywhere to talk to their kids about this brave, brave child.

Brave with a capital B. Yeah.

Oh my God. You know, and I think that one of the things I would love to see more of is content, digital and broadcast, you know, that parents and kids can have thoughtful conversations about. All the data supports helping our kids become critical media consumers. You know, we all get scared that our kids are getting addicted to media, but the truth is media can be great.

It's just a tool, so we just need to see it as a tool. It's not a toy. Let's have boundaries. Let's keep the doors, you know, open lines of communication. You know, no reason the kid needs to have a phone in their room after 10 o'clock. Like, no good can come of that. But, but yeah, let's Right.

Yeah. So, and so another favorite client of mine is called Amaze, which is amazing. And it's a YouTube channel. Hi, JJ. It's a YouTube channel, and it is meant for young people sort of aged, I would say, 9 to 14 right now. And it's sex ed and puberty education and when will I get boobs and do— why do my friends not like me anymore and all all the tough questions around puberty, and they are funny and they are animated videos, and they've had almost 18 million views on YouTube in a very short time because kids need this information. And we're just about to launch something called Amaze Jr., which is a series of videos around questions about your body, even early consent questions for younger kids, so parents can watch them with their little kids, right? So a little kid comes home and she says, I played doctor, and you're like, uh-oh, Oh yeah, you know, when you're talking about—

yeah, which are— it's so important for people to have, you know, uh, even just a starting point to have that conversation that you can, you know, read a good book or watch a good video and then be able to talk about it with your kids and have something that, right, you know, I, I hope that if you, you know, child, you have questions, you come, you come talk to me, because we certainly don't want to let a kid be at the whims of Google or just whatever people are saying on the school bus. I mean, I remember some of the sex ed I got riding the bus. And yeah, not great, not great conversations, you know, to have my face beat red. So yeah, it was, and so I think that that's an amazing, amazing mission to have is just to try to, let's open that dialogue between parent and child.

Well, yeah. And I mean, I think it's also, I have a client called the Center for Parent and Teen Communication, which is also a web resource for parents of teens and tweens. To keep having the conversations because again, you know, we, we, we, we think that teens are going to leave us and go learn from everyone else but us, but of course they want us in their lives even if it doesn't feel that way. And so, I mean, I think that the biggest lesson I get from my clients and why I feel so blessed, frankly, it sounds like a cliché to do this work, is to see how we can use media and technology to to make the world better and also to make parenting easier, frankly.

Yeah. Because we— Yeah. Which we all need. You know, we, we, we need some wins there because it's a, it's a tough world out there and it's tough to try to navigate. And are we giving our kids the skills they need to be, like you said, be critical consumers and be looking at ads and being like, huh, what, what's be really being sold here? You know, what's the messaging? Who's the target audience? Um, what's, what's real and what's not? And how to sort that all out. And so people aren't internalizing messages that could be so damaging to themselves. That's right. Yeah, yeah, for sure. So, well, awesome. Well, I love to hear that, that you get to work with organizations which I'm sure are so great even just to see in tools as a parent. So yeah, so you said that you kind of like having kind of a break with your day. So do you break out in terms of the, your workday and then interacting with kids, or what's working for you in terms of scheduling?, you know, making stuff happen in the time it needs to happen.

I've always worked from home, so I don't know how many of you— Brittany, you work from home, right?

I do. I'm a nap time attorney.

Yes. I love it. Yeah, half-time attorneys. So I'm different in that I have a nanny, um, because I do travel a lot. And, um, you know, I, I like the nap time thing. I just couldn't squeeze it in. I don't know how you do it. So I have always worked at home but had a caregiver in my home as well, which, you know, is not for everyone.

No, but I've had some of that too, so I've had, I've had ebbs and flows for sure.

Yeah, I just love it, you know. It allows me to work full-time and, you know, be the breadwinner I want and need to be, but also, you know, I always try to be sort of off, like when the bus comes, because when kids get off that bus, oh my God, and they want you, they need you, they have a million stories about the day, they want to tell you about Minecraft, and you need to be ready to listen. You need to be ready. Like, one of my sons came off the bus yesterday and he was literally shrieking, and I had the worst day ever! And you're like, okay. And so not every day, because, you know, I'm at meetings some days, I'm traveling. Like, I'm very real to my kids that Mommy Mommy works and I know that it's hard for you. I get so much, Mommy, you're never home. Mommy, I miss you. I was working, I was gone for 18 days straight this fall between speaking gigs for my book stuff and client meetings. And that was really hard and it was hard on my family and I felt miserable and like the worst mother ever. And I heard it from the nursery school and I got a lot of you know what for it. Yeah, but, but I just said to my kids, and they may be too young to know this, I don't know, like, this is what mommy has to do, you know? Yeah. And I'm luckier than most, so I want them to know that too.

Yeah, you know, and it's, uh, and it is, it is even just a privileged position to be in that you kind of have some control and autonomy over the work that you craft. It's not saying that you can avoid all of the pain points on people in your family because that's a bit of a pipe dream that, oh, I can do really fulfilling work and contribute and do the mission that I want to and yet no one will ever miss me. Like, come on, let's be real because kids are loving and greedy and they will take and take, take from you.

They will. That's their job. That's their job. That's their job. Exactly. Our job as adults is to draw boundaries and I feel like that's to me the hardest lesson of parenting.

Yeah, to draw boundaries. Amen. I think that that's really smart. So, um, okay, and the other thing that I wanted to talk to you about, just because you've been, um, like I said, you've worked in the political realm, is, you know, what, what do you think we can work on, or what responsibility do we have as people who are in the space of creating content, um, of engaging online and discussing things, in terms of trying to help, um, you know, build constructive conversations and maybe help some of the divisiveness? I don't think that you could talk to any American in now 2019 who would be like, oh yeah, things are good, you know, in politics. I mean, I don't think any— anyone would agree with that in terms of being able to have reasonable conversations, whether it's around the dinner table or the Thanksgiving extended family table or even online. Um, what do you think we can do to try to help that, even as we talk about things that are— people are passionate about, that's controversial?

It's It's tough. I don't think the internet is the place to have those conversations. In fact, I have a rule in my life and in my business where if things get tough, you have to take it off email and pick up the phone, you know, or have a personal conversation. I think that part of what's happened is that we talk too much about politics and tough issues online and not enough with each other. And I think that that's one of the amazing things, frankly, about being in a community of women who ironically have a lot to say online but are willing to come together offline and talk, you know, is that we're able to connect around our common, our common humanness and listen more. I'm angry, angry, angry. And I think A lot of us are angry and we're frustrated and our government doesn't work and we don't know what to do, but I am trying not to rage on Twitter and frankly to read less Twitter because it's not good for us. And coming back to the media consumption thing, like, how can we model for our kids good habits if we— I realized that every night I was just consumed by Twitter rage, and that my kids would come into my bedroom and see me swearing at my phone. Like, that's no good for anyone, right? So I'm all for— I'm all for speaking out, but I think that we've got to take it offline.

Yeah, I think that that's really wise advice. And that's— and that seems hard for people because I think too often, I think people they wanna protect themselves and they wanna have boundaries and maybe that gets mistaken of like, well, I don't allow negative influence in my life or toxic relationships or people, but that can easily stretch into the area of I don't talk to people who disagree with me.

That's right. Now, but what I wanna say though, and why I believe that the work I do is a little different is storytelling and speaking your truth is different. So we did some work with Planned Parenthood that was very, very sort of human, and it was around women telling stories of how Planned Parenthood came into their life, right? That's really different than hurling an invective and judging. It's like, this is me, this is my truth, end. And so the people that I follow on Instagram, all over the place. I, I really admire that they bravely tell their stories, invite commentary. I don't engage in that commentary because that's where I think it all breaks down. But I think that if you're brave enough to use the internet to speak for— speak your truth, then that can change things.

Oh, I really like that, you know. And yeah, as in, and to concentrate on what is What is your story? And then to let people make their own, to let that, you know, let it wash over them and they're going to make their own judgments and assumptions as everyone does. And you hope that maybe as people get more used to that and letting things sit with them before, you know, giving themselves some space before they start assuming things or making judgments, that that's maybe how it gets a little bit better.

Yeah, that's right. I mean, stories, stories change lives. And those of us who are content creators, I think we have to Like, we have to remember that, you know, and everyone has a story.

Everyone. Yeah, I love that. I was listening this morning, I have a friend who's got a podcast, Brianna of the Life Beats podcast, and that's something that she talks about. Her, her kind of mantra is that everyone has these life beats, these common things in humanity that tie them together. And, you know, she has people on her podcast who are dealing, you know, with, you know, everything from divorce to losing a child to, you know, you know, being special needs parent, you know, some heavy, heavy stuff. And, you know, talks about that it's— there's so much that we have in common. And if we could just look for that and how our stories connect and how much we have in common, you know, like you said, your common humanness, your common humanity, it makes it so much easier to listen to someone, even, even if you're in a different space, on different sides of the aisle. Yeah, it's so true. Yeah. So, well, that's beautiful. So, so there you go, guys. We fixed it. So just do what what we tell you to do and just to speak your truth and then listen. Both parts, both really important. Then I wanted to finish today that you— I was stalking you on Twitter obviously because you're amazing and you did a great little bit with Guy Raz who I got a total podcast crush on because I love all of his work that he does with NPR. Interviewing entrepreneurs and how we built this. But you talked about how to thrive as an entrepreneur as an introvert. And you know, you've spoken to this, you've written about this. I know this is something that you're really passionate about is kind of spreading the love for those of us who I, you know, admittedly will probably not put myself in this category that I am. As you could probably assume, I am an extrovert and I love that.

But I know that when you put the video on our podcast, I'm like, oh, she's an extrovert. Extrovert, because introverts do not like video.

They do not like video. And even though I don't, I don't use a video, I, I do do video. Um, but I get that there's a lot of people who aren't, and I'm always trying to do a better job of understanding those people and how can I help them with their work and how, you know, and what they want to accomplish when their businesses— um, and I know, so I know introverts would love to hear kind of your tips for how to, how to do that, especially as an entrepreneur, you know, in this modern age. How can you do as an introvert.

Sure, and you can see the video that Brittany's talking about if you go to my website, which is womenandwork.org, and it's on, I think, my writing or speaking page.

And we'll link it in the show notes for sure.

Oh, awesome. I spoke at the first ever How I Built This summit with Guy Raz, which was incredible, and I did talk about what it takes to thrive as an introverted entrepreneur, but it's relevant even if you're an extrovert. The first thing that I want to highlight is being strategic about your time. When you become an entrepreneur, the first piece of advice you'll get is to network, right? What does that even mean? What does networking even mean? I think for many people, it feels so overwhelming, so scary that they say yes ask too many things and end up wasting a lot of time, spinning a lot of wheels. And if you're an introvert, really taxing yourself, right? Or if you have social anxiety. So time is money, right? You wouldn't just randomly spend money on anything as an entrepreneur. So you need to be really surgical and strategic about your network and network niche. As I say, network with a purpose. If you want to get new clients, if you want to build your pipeline, of business development, you're going to network in a very different way maybe than if you were looking for funding or, you know, you were growing your database of influencers, right? You're going to network in different ways. You can also network with one person versus going to a big room. So be strategic and think about your goals. Think about your time. Say no more than yes. The other thing that I think is really important is sort of preparing yourself before you walk into that room. A lot of us get very, very anxious, and so you really need to think about breathing. I always rehearse the first line of whatever I'm going to say, whether I'm, you know, frankly saying hello to people or giving a speech or whatever. I know that first line because once I've talked a little bit, then I'm okay, but I have such anxiety around the first line. I wear the same lipstick. I sort of have a look that I'm going for. It's, it's about preparing yourself like actors do or athletes do when you're going into a situation.

And then you're putting on your armor and it just happens to be a great shade of red.

Yeah, totally. Or your costume, whatever. The third thing is, um, thinking about networking, um, as an annuity, right? Not a one-time thing. And this is where content creation is amazing, and probably most of your audience knows this, but you know, if you can write or publish content that burnishes your professional reputation no matter what you do and drives people to want to hire you, that is way more valuable than going to a million, you know, rubber chicken dinners or networking events or meetups.

So some lame, you know, Rotary Club meetings at the Best Western.

Yeah, yeah, 100%, right? Put a blog, you know, see if your local paper will accept a column, write a blog, do anything, respond, do a Quora Q&A. There's a million different ways you can now write content on LinkedIn, which I'm really into because I think that LinkedIn is a great, great tool. So one of my vows in 2019 is to use LinkedIn more. So think about annuity networking, networking that works for you while you're, you know, doing your own thing on your own time, but people can still find you online.

That's it. That's all I got. Well, those— I think that's all we need. Those are all 3 great tips, so I just wanted to review those. First was to be strategic about your time. You know, Maura talked about find that network niche, make sure you have goals for what you're doing with your networking, say no more than you're saying yes. The second was prepare yourself before walking in. Think about that costume. What is it that you that you can do beforehand so that you know your opener. Because yeah, you're right, as soon as you get over that first line, the second one can usually come a lot easier.

Yeah, it just happens.

It just happens, and it has a natural flow to it. So yeah, have something. You know you're gonna need to talk, that's the whole point of this, so be ready. Be ready to talk and have something to say that serves your needs because you've talked about your needs and your goals. And the third is think about that networking annuity. What can you put out there? What can you create that has value and that can serve you, um, even when you're taking a break?

That's right.

Yeah, that is right. Awesome. Um, okay. And so where can people find you if they want to work with you, if they want to hear more about you and what you're doing and who you're helping? Um, where's the best place to find you?

Well, if you're a content creator and you would like, um, to sign up for compensated opportunities that are also driving social good, please go to themissionlist.com and sign up at themissionlist.com. And, um, you can also keep up with me and all my various escapades at womenandwork.org or hidinginthebathroom.com.

There you go. All, all good things. Thank you so much, Maura, for being on here. This was just wonderful. Okay, everybody, I hope you enjoyed that interview. Um, I thought it was so helpful to hear from Maura, and I loved, as I reviewed this interview and released seeing it and working on the show notes and, um, before it came out that I love her, just the way that she approaches being an introvert and having a different experience as you relate to being an entrepreneur and to connecting with other people. And, you know, I, I think sometimes we get a little, um, a little crazy with the personality tests and the labels and the boxes and the categories that put ourselves in. And because it can sound— it can make things nice and tidy when I think most humans, um, you know, pretty much all humans are really complex, nuanced beings that have a lot of sides to them, and I think that's good. So, you know, whether you identify as an introvert or an extrovert, I hope that as you've listened in today and gotten some of these tips, and definitely hone in on those 3 tips that, that Maura talked about, that you, either way you fit on that spectrum, that you say, okay, so, so what? So I'm not that great at this, or I struggle with this, or this is a challenge or a fear of mine. So what? What can I do now? What can I approach? What can I work on? What can I delegate? What can I do to put good proper boundaries around my space and my time and my talents so that I can take better advantage of the opportunities and grow my business and my passions and my platform the way I want to, in a way that actually impacts change in the way that we want to, to put good out in the world? So I was listening to a podcast yesterday, which I know very meta talking about podcasts and podcasts podcast, but, um, because I am a big podcast junkie. And, um, and they were referencing that it's, um, you know, sometimes we have a hard time, I think, as women, it's, you know, putting ourselves out there and saying, yeah, I do want to make money. And we feel greasy or slimy about that, or that's too much of an ask. Um, and we, you know, sometimes have some hang-ups about that. But the reality is, is that when you have a healthy business, when you are looking at your bottom line, when you're making friends with your numbers, and when you're being thoughtful about your decisions and being strategic in those, then it allows you to do the good that you want to do in the world. And if you can't have a business that survives, then it's not going to be able to affect that much change, even if you have, you know, you have smaller dreams. If you like making homemade earrings and, you know, handcrafted earrings, and that's your greatest passion, that's amazing, and I would love to see you do that and do that well and do that in the way you want to. But it's going to be hard for you to do that if you're not making a profit, if you're not being smart about your time and your resources. And how are you differentiating yourself? And how are you competing against other people when, you know, sometimes a lot of the goods and services that we may create may be in a me-too market? So anyway, just some closing thoughts to think about. Um, if you're loving the podcast, which I hope you are, um, I'd love to hear about it. Send me a DM, uh, you know, connect with me on Instagram. That's where I am most of the time. Let me know what you're liking, what— let me know what you'd like to see more of. If there's someone that you want to hear from, if you want to hear more about their origin story or what they're doing and what's working and not working in their business, then let me know. Make sure you're subscribed to the podcast and that you're not missing out on any of these episodes that come out. We've got more amazing interviews, we've got more great solo episodes that dive into something strategic and foundational that's going to you on the business side of your creative endeavor, whatever that looks like. And if you haven't left a review yet, that's another really great way for you to say thank you and for me to allow me what I want to do with this platform, which is to reach more female creative entrepreneurs just like you. That's my jam. That's what I want to do. I want to help more women be more confident business owners, and I can't do that without your help. I really need you. To. So please tell a friend, share this with a friend, leave a rating and review, give me a screenshot, give me a DM, whatever you can. I appreciate all of it, and know that it all really helps unfold and allow me to do my mission to be able to reach out and to help women achieve their dreams, which is my, my biggest dream and my biggest joy, that I get to be a small part of your dreams and your aims and ambitions at achieving what you want to. So thanks so much for being here. Thanks for your time, and I hope I hope you have a great week and remember that you are a real business owner, so own your business in every sense of the word.