To Degree or not Degree

Business Brain Episode 672 for Wednesday, August 6th finish your degree day. Or for those of you who don't celebrate National Root beer float day 2025. Greetings folks and welcome to Business Brain. The show where we take an idea or three, we crunch it, we dissect it, we use to tune our business brains so that we can each individually and collectively continue leading and enhancing our charmed lives. Our sponsors for today. Speaking of charmed life, our first sponsors, Mint mobile.com businessbrain where you can go and sign up for a three month unlimited wireless plan for just 15 bucks per month and stop overpaying for your wireless service. Something that I think both I've done and I'm pretty sure you've done too, Shannon.

Yeah, I'm a huge Mint fan and we can't say enough good things about them. Yeah.

The only thing I can say is I did not jump to them when they first started sponsoring us years and years ago. And I can't believe I didn't do it right away. I gave away thousands of dollars necessarily.

I did it. They gave us those packs, they sent us some test packs to see if it would work and I was really concerned about coverage at the time. This was, I don't know, it might have been five years ago. More than that. It was pre Covid. Yeah, maybe. Yeah. And my whole family's on it.

Oh yeah.

I think we have five or seven lines and it's awesome, man.

So we'll talk more about that in a little bit and we'll talk about eversight.com BB which is another service that Shannon's using. Another one, basically like having his own in house web team. So we'll talk about all that. For now, here in Durham, New Hampshire I'm Dave Hamilton and out here in.

Northern California, I am Shannon Jean.

So it's finish your degree day, Shannon. Uh, I, and, and I'm, I, and I, I don't celebrate that in that I never finished my degree. But I'm also like, that has never been an important thing to me when hiring someone. Is it important to you when hiring someone?

No.

Okay.

I, I, now there's some nuance to this.

Oh yeah.

Are you going to finish your degree?

You know, because I'm definitely going to be a hypocrite here in a minute. Yeah, yeah.

Like I, I can recall telling you know, my kids like, hey, you know, college is not getting your degree is not a golden ticket. But going to college is a wonderful experience and a great, one of the most powerful networking Occurrences of your life that can really accelerate your life, right?

It can. There are other ways to do that. Yes.

Oh, of course.

Yeah. Yeah.

That's not the only answer. And for many people. I don't know about you, but I live in the Bay Area, and it's very hyper, like, competitive. You know, my kids this, my kid that, and I can.

I.

My kids went to private school forever. I've talked about it on the show. Right, right. And we started a business to pay for that because I didn't have the money to do it. And so they went to private high school. And literally, I hate that. From day one, they were pitching, like, 99% of our students get into these, you know, all these great colleges. And that was part of their sales pitch. And I know, I felt, especially looking back now, in hindsight, we were kind of moved along this track, that this is the most important thing you can do. And that's part of the value of coming here. We get you connected. And it was important for my kids. They had a great experience, but it. It's not necessary for every kid. Matter of fact, I would say it's not recommended for every kid. They're all different.

Yep.

And there's a ton of tracks to take to be successful.

I. I told. Yes. I. I mean, I'm. I am a living example of that. I did a couple of years of college, and then I wound up going to the wrong school for me and didn't really like it and wasn't interested in engaging with it the way that probably would have been the right way to do it. And then I wound up starting businesses every summer. And when I realized I was making more money in the summer than my friends who graduated were making in their first years of their job, like, their salary, it was like, well, at one point I was like, why am I going back? What am I. What am I. Why, like, I can always go back later, but right now, in that moment, it was like, I already have, like, a job, which is the whole point of this college thing. They tell me, and I'm doing the thing, so I'm just going to do the thing now. And that that path has worked out for me. Have there been moments? I mean, it's been a few decades since I've had one of these moments, but have there been moments where I was trying to, you know, get a job or navigate something and it was like, ah, right, I don't have a degree, so I've got to, like, figure out another path? Yes. And were there moments where it Was like, wouldn't this be easier if. And of course you have those thoughts, but you. Of course I did. I don't want to say you did. You folks.

Sure.

But I do.

I understand.

Yeah. And. But I don't know that it would have been easier. Right. Like, I never. I never got myself into a position where someone said, you're everything, only.

Yes.

Now, that said, and this is where I'm gonna, you know, it's gonna sound like I'm a hypocrite here, but not really. My son has been in that position where he is working full time as a software engineer. He did a few years of college, a couple years, actually two. And then his school kind of the. The computer science program where he was going sort of fell apart. And so he didn't just have a place to go back to, and he wound up getting an internship while he was figuring out, should I switch schools? Or, you know, whatever.

Okay.

And then the intern. The internship was. Is at it. Or was at a company that doesn't hire engineers without degrees. And once he finished his internship, they're like, well, we want to hire you. Forget about the degree. We're already here. You're trained. Like, we'd be stupid to let you.

Walk out the door. Obviously, good for them.

I agree with that because they're. It's a. It's a larger company. So there's red tape that sometimes, even when it's obvious, it doesn't. Right.

Yeah.

But, you know, he has been told that it. Without a degree, he, you know, he's full. He has had that conversation that, That I never had. The one where it's like, you are everything we want. If only you had this. And so.

And that's good context to this. There are particular fields where the value and weight of that credential is very important currently. And. Yes, currently engineering. Yeah, that's a good, good fine point on it. You know, currently.

And it's not everywhere. Like, some places with engineering would. Would take him, but other places wouldn't without the degree. And so. And I know I mentioned this on a recent episode, which I'll link to, but he found. He was like, okay, well, I just want. Now they're just telling me, I need a piece of paper. I already have the knowledge. It's not about getting an education anymore. Now it's literally about. Because, you know, he's been told a few times, like, you know, everything you need to know, you are qualified. But for.

Yeah, they probably need the actual thing. The doctor files. That's insurance and everything. Right.

Who knows?

Whatever.

Probably not insurance, but it's probably some stupid thing.

Well, if he's an. I was thinking if he's like some kind of structural engineer.

Oh, no, software engineer.

Oh, oh, that's different.

Yeah.

I'm thinking like safety, liability.

Yeah. No, no, no, no. There's no need for it. But any. But they. But like that is where the gate is kept at some places. And so he decided, fine, you're not telling me I need an education. You're telling me I need a degree. Those are two different things. And so he has found a path. Where in. He's in the middle of it now, but it'll be about six or seven months of taking classes at night and on the weekends and.

Terrific.

And he will essentially race through what would be two years of college. And, and I believe the plan is by, certainly by the end of this year he will have that piece of paper from an accredited universe.

You know, that's great, but terrific.

But like that's the part of this software engineer.

I, I don't think there's any reason whatsoever.

No, it's just policy.

No way. Yes.

And there's a lot of jobs like that.

Crazy.

And yeah. And I, and again, I'll link to the episode. But when we did it or when we talked about that episode, it was right after he had found this opportunity and there's several schools like this and he, his classmates are nurses who want to become managers and already have again, same scenario. They already know everything. They just need a piece of paper. And people coming out of the military who have all the knowledge that.

But they have to have a piece.

But they need a piece of paper and they want it quickly. And so this is the path.

Yeah, yeah.

And I think it's the education bubble. I'll use the term bursting, but you know, I don't think, like, I don't think we're going to see a.

No, no.

You know, a moment changing. But it is evolving rapidly. Yes.

It reminds. I post about. I made a comment on X and I. It's. We were talking about stupid rules, right?

Yeah, yeah.

And how stupid rules. And I made it. I told this quick story about Ross Perot and how a stupid Rule cost him $378 billion.

Okay.

He was offered 70% of Home Depot for 2 million bucks. 70% when they were starting out. So he meets with the co founders and they already have cars and company cars. They're getting it set up. And he goes, hey, you know, all my people drive Chevrolets and One of the co founders drive had a Cadillac. And he goes, well, I've already got this Caddy. It's used. It's going to cost you more money to go get a Chevrolet. So I'm going to keep the Caddy. And he goes, no, no, no, you don't understand. All my people drive Chevrolets. And the co founder, it's a Home Depot. Bernie. I can't remember. Bernie Marcus. Bernie Marcus walked out the door, talked, walked out the door to talk to the other guy and says, hey, we're not doing this deal with Ross Perot. And he's like, what are you talking about? We need the $2 million. He goes, if this guy's going to nitpick me over what car I drive, can you imagine what everything else he's going to hammer us on? And so they walked away from the deal. Ross was like, yeah, whatever. Okay, that 2, $2 million, 70% would be worth $378 billion today. Yep. Stupid, stupid rules make you poor, you know.

Yes, and it's arbitrary for sure. And yeah, it is arbitrary. I mean, I say arbitrary. I don't, I don't know the foundation of this story and why it mattered that people had Chevrolets or what may have been. He may have been burned by something.

I think it was, I can't imagine what.

But you know.

Yeah, it was a visual like Kate. Yeah, we're comment. We're the common people.

Yeah.

And it was, you know, and so it's, it's just interesting that like I said, if it's a structural engineer, even maybe a nurse. I get it. Maybe some safety reason, some insurance company saying hey, we want degrees.

People are already licensed nurses, by the way.

Yeah, that's like ridiculous. Yeah, that's ridiculous.

Yeah, it's a stupid rule. It is a stupid rule, right?

Stupid rule.

Yes.

Yeah, yeah, yep, I agree. Yeah, we'd love to hear your thoughts on it. You know, I'm going to title this episode Degree or Not Degree and let us know. Feedback at BusinessBrain Show. What do you think? Is it the right, you know, should we everybody have it, Everybody finish it or we just figure it out our own.

And do you care when you're hiring people like I, I, that I, I Want to know. FeedbackUsBrain show all we have. We have another topic to to talk about. The next thing that we want to do is talk about our sponsors because you know what doesn't belong in your epic business or summer plans getting burned by your old wireless. Bill Shannon and I have both been Mint Mobile customers for years. And between us, we've saved thousands each money we'd rather put towards growing our businesses. Or let's be candid, a suspiciously large stash of mint chocolate chip ice cream. Not so right. With Mint, you get the same coverage and speed you're used to, but for way less money. Right now, new customers can get three months of unlimited premium wireless service for just 15 bucks a month. That's high speed data, unlimited talk and text on the nation's largest 5G network. You bring your own phone, keep your number, keep your contacts, ditch the overpriced nonsense. The best part, you stop sweating over your phone bill and start focusing on living your charmed life. Because I mean, worrying about overage charges, it's like so 2015 this year. Skip breaking a sweat and breaking the bank. Get this new customer offer and your three month unlimited wireless plan for just 15 bucks a month at mint mobile.com businessbrain. That's mint mobile.com businessbrain upfront payment of $45 required. That's equivalent to $15 a month limited new time customer offer for the first three speeds may slow above 35 gigs on the Unlimited plan. Taxes and fees are extra. See Mint Mobile for details. Again visit mintmobile.com businessbrain and our thanks to Mint Mobile for sponsoring this episode. And hey, if your business website is outdated, clunky, or just limping along hoping no one notices, it's time to call in the pros. And that's where our sponsor, Eversight comes in. Eversight isn't your typical web agency. They don't hit you with a $10,000 upfront bill just to get started. For 399 bucks a month, you get what feels like your own in house web team ready to design, launch and maintain a professional site that works as hard as you do. They answer calls, reply to emails and texts the same day. And there are no long term contracts. They proactively manage hundreds of sites for entrepreneurs, keeping them updated, secure and running fast so you can focus on running your business. And if something breaks, they fix it fast. No drama, no nickel and diming, just handled. Shannon, that, that's, that's you. You are this customer, dude. Okay?

Totally. And I needed them to help. I needed somebody to help me. It was like trying to get through help desks, other companies opening tickets or whatever. And I just, you know, reached out and got a, you know, really fast answer and they stepped up and they helped me on a week, over a weekend and got my sites back up and Running this. Awesome.

That's how a company proves its value. I love that. Yeah. Well, they can and I believe will prove their value to you. Visit eversight.com e v e R-S-I t e.com bb to get started today. And our thanks to Eversight for sponsoring this episode. Shannon. While we were talking about our sponsors, we got a Note from a LinkedIn user that's watching our livestream. That said, regarding our first topic there about is it important to finish your degree? Another strong value I have been hearing about is study abroad programs. I've heard executives say it can demonstrate a person can be successful outside of their comfort zone. That I could totally.

I agree with that.

I do agree. Yeah.

I love it.

Yeah. Yeah.

I think they should have. I think when you go to college, you should have to go door to door and try to sell something. You know, banging on doors, man, that's.

Yes.

It's, you know, brutal. But it teaches you so much.

Yeah.

And this, this is exactly right. This kind of study abroad, you're going to get out, you can, you know, problem solve, figure things out. Yes. Be on your own, meet new people you don't know. I agree. I think that, you know, it's hugely valuable.

And I never thought, I never thought of that as, as something that, that, you know, would be a. A differentiator. But I absolutely. It makes sense.

Yeah.

Yeah. Totally love it.

Yeah. Awesome.

The other topic. I need a little business therapy, Shannon.

Yes.

Because I'm here for it. Thank you. I. When I play music, I. I assume the Persona of Dave bang drum. Right. And that is.

Why is that, Dave?

Well, because, I mean, sometimes there's a lot of drama, you know, especially if I'm doing like theater work or whatever. And, and that's really where that came from, is like, look, I'm not in. I'm not interested nor involved in your drama. I'm here to play the drums. And when it's. When that's over, I'm happy to talk about the music or even become friendly, but as soon as the drama starts, you're going to notice that Dave's gone. Right, Dave bang drum. I don't care about any of that stuff. But it also embodies a decision that I made a long time ago, like decades ago, perhaps even when I was a kid that I don't. And I know why. I mean, I ran. Helped run a band and I hated it. I never take a leadership role. I never start a band. It's. I'm always the, you know, I mean, I might be an equal member of a band. Right. But if. If there is a leader on the project, I don't endeavor to be that. Ever. And it's.

And this is in contrast to the rest of your life.

Exactly, because it's. It'. Intentionally in contrast to that. It's. It's because I. I am that person everywhere else, and I. I like to just be the one playing music. And generally, I'm certainly not the best drummer on the planet, but generally speaking, my skills are good enough to get hired and, you know, there you go. Not by everyone. Like, I've certainly not been hired before. Like, you know, but. But that's the value I bring, is I will play and. But. But it's really hard, though, Shannon. Even again, it's my decision. I could change it at any time, but I don't want to. But it's really hard to be a team player when it's not my team.

Well, yeah, I think it's. I've. I've been in this position before where you maybe get frustrated with having to make decisions all the time and being the leader all the time, or, you know, the. The person trying to get everything together and make. Make it happen. Yeah. But then when you step back and let someone else do it in your head, you're like, man, that's not. There's a better way.

Yes.

Yes. And you want to. You want it both ways. Right. You want the. I love collaboration. And if.

Yes. And that's what it always is. Right.

The. The best situations are when you really have some great collaborators and everybody has different skills that kind of move things forward. But a lot of times you don't have that. And so. And you get. I get it. And it's frustrating that you can't have it both ways.

No, And I know I can't have it both ways. Like.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yes. I'm not coming here asking, but. But you're. As. I'm sitting here thinking about the projects that I'm involved in, where I get pleasure out of them, versus the projects that I'm involved in, where I get frustration out of them. The ones where I get pleasure are the ones where it is an extremely highly collaborative environment where everyone's skills and input are valued. I don't want to say followed because. Sure, because part of collaboration, like, sometimes you get, you know, two or three people with ideas or more, and the end result is a combination amalgamation of those ideas. Other times you get two or three people with ideas and just the way that it works out. One of those needs to be chosen in favor of the other two. Right, but. And that's fine. And it's fine.

Could be the best. Could be the best method.

That's it.

Correct.

Yeah. And oftentimes, you know, somebody will have an idea and then somebody else will kind of have an evolution of that idea and the third person will have an even better. And then suddenly it's like, well, your idea is the best one. Like obviously.

Yeah.

But even if it's not obvious to me, if whoever is in charge, here's everybody's ideas, we discuss them, you know, whatever. They go through the process and then it's like, okay, well we're going to go this way. Well, yeah, okay, but fine. But everybody's like, everybody's an active participant. The collaboration and I think you hit the nail on the head there.

That, that is the thing here to. In my experience, it's easier because I like to. Hey, I'm a pretty good leader. I'm not a great manager because I don't. I'm not that detail oriented. I'm a better than I am a manager.

I feel like I've heard this line before.

Yeah, you have. But I'm also a pretty good follower. You know, if we have a good collaboration and, and the leaders listening and taking things into account and I like those, those situations as well.

Exactly.

But in like you're saying it's, it's frustrating when I get frustrated when I'm involved in a project and things start falling through the cracks or deadlines are missed or our accountability is called into question or reliability is called into question. Because I'm a freak about that stuff. I just cannot. I mean it's. If we're starting at 10 o', clock, I'm ready to go at 9:55. You know, I mean, let's, let's. And, and we're not showing up at 10 and strolling around and doing whatever. Yeah, that. It drives me insane. I can't handle it.

That stuff. I don't work with people like that. Like, like that one and done not for folks like that. Right. Yeah, exactly. Where, where the frustration comes in for more often is the, the vision of something is not fully. And no vision is fully fleshed out. But there's gaping holes in the logic of what we're going to be doing. It's like, yeah, we have like two rehearsals to do a thing that we all know needs eight. You know, like this is on. We're biting off more than we can chew. So let's talk. That's the thing. And because. And I think the reason that, that really gets to me more than kind of other leadership failures. Because we all have leadership failures, but that one in particular, the natural result of it is that whatever the performance is, the end is going to be less good because we bit off more than we can chew.

And you know, promise.

Right. We've all. Yeah, we've over promised. Exactly. And, and that's, that's where. Yeah. Frustration often sets in for me. I mean, you know, varying degrees. None of us are perfect like all of that. But it's like, you know, when there's habits that aren't re. Aren't evaluated throughout. Right. You know, it's like, oh, we bit off. Let's.

Yeah.

And if, let's talk about that, you know.

Yeah, yeah. And if you're just going to be Dave Bang drum, you just kind of, okay, I'm gonna go with the flow. I show up and I play the drums, but if it reflects poorly on you, forget it. That's where you have to bail. Bail out.

Bail out. Or be like, don't take it the next time. That's right.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Take. Don't take the next time. So, yeah, I agree. Yeah. Drive you nuts.

It'll drive you nuts. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just one of those things again, I know that it is. It's a choice I've made and continue to actively make. But.

Yeah, but you can, you can adjust over time. You can adjust to be involved in those groups or not. It works out better. Or not. That's right. Yeah, that's right.

That's right.

Yeah.

Or you're right, involved in the leadership more to nudge things without suddenly holding the bag.

Yep. Yeah. I find myself, like, wanting to speak up really quick and be like, oh, no, no, do it this way. And then I shut up. It's like, don't. Don't look at me.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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See ya.