Managing Challenging Behaviour interview with Dr Stephanie Jen Chyi Ooi

Right, hello again. We're gonna give this another go, so welcome everyone. Hopefully some people will join again, but I'm going to be joined by Camilla from My Parenting Solutions, so we're going to have a little bit of a chat about challenging behaviour. As we know, all of our little ones can kind of push us to the limit at times, so Camilla hopefully is going to give us a little bit of advice. So here we go. Yeah, this should work this time. Fingers crossed she will pop up and then we can roll into it.

Ah, yay!

Okay, all right, it's working. Perfect.

Oh dear, I feel really hot and bothered now. There's nothing worse than tech not working.

I know, and Monday morning always happens, right? So anyway, you were here and actually we're only like 5 minutes after we said that we—

Exactly, exactly. I think people understand that, yes, pet goes wrong. Yeah.

How are you doing?

I am very good, thank you. Yeah, I had, I had a lot of people, about, um, I think 100 people on a webinar I was doing last night, um, and it was just, it was so great. I got so many questions, and that was just, yeah, it was really exciting. It was all about managing challenging behavior, so I'm pumped up for today. Good.

We've got quite a few questions to get through, but firstly, do you want to kind of introduce yourself a little bit?

Perfect. Yeah, yeah.

Okay, get into the question.

Okay, great. So I'm Camilla McGill, I run My Parenting Solutions. I have been working with parents for 20 years. I absolutely love the job that I do, and I also have 4 children who are really quite grown up now, so they're 16, Between 16 and 23.

Excellent, you have 4 children.

So everything I do is based on, on research, study, and also personal experience and working with parents, because I learn an awful lot from parents. And I have actually Wednesday night this week, I have another webinar like the one I did last night. So anybody could go to my bio and request to register for that. And I've also got on my website, myparentingsolutions.com, I've got some really nice free booklets that parents find really useful. So I tend to hone in on the two areas of, of Posh Training and also on managing this challenging behaviour, because I think it's something parents find so difficult. The thing I say all the time is, you know, how many years, Stephanie, did you train to be a GP? 7?

Yeah, so medical school plus GP training, that's 9 years, right? Yeah.

Okay, any other job we get, whether it's a year, 6 months, 9 years training, but parenting, we get help with the birth, we get help with the breastfeeding, maybe a little bit about weaning, and then I think so many parents expect to know what to do. Each child comes with their own temperament. And you might find that you've got one who is really quite easy to handle. I mean, this is, you know, you think, oh, I got this. And then another one comes along, or that child changes.

Yeah.

Because they go through stages of development. And then you think, help.

Yeah.

And, you know, and, and I just say, you know, that to learn about parenting, and whether you learn through books or through training courses or through one-to-one consultations, Give it to yourself, because don't expect to know how to manage it. So that's my big thing. And don't beat yourself up, because it isn't about being perfect. I love your page because, you know, you talk about the imperfections of life, and I think sometimes our stress comes from expecting them to behave well all the time, and they won't, you know. So does that give you enough of an intro there?

Yes, it is, and I'm like nodding away because I completely agree. I think that, like you said, parenting, it doesn't come with a manual.

No.

There is no textbook or anything that can prepare you for it. You're just kind of thrown into it. Yeah, and it's winging it.

Yeah.

And I think that that is— that's very normal. But it's nice to, you know, maybe when we hear the principles, the kind of advice that you've got, maybe it's something that we've heard before. But sometimes I think when you're in this situation, when you're in the thick of it, the kind of— and especially at the moment, every day is quite repetitive. It's really difficult. It's definitely harder than I think that just adds another layer of—

it does—

like exhaustion, stress as well.

Yes, definitely. And I've definitely heard much more from parents about, you know, really challenging behaviour that they weren't experiencing before, and I'm sure it's triggered by what's happening in the world.

Yes, definitely. Exactly. And we're all kind of living on top of each other a little bit.

Totally. You know, And no outlet, nothing fun.

Yes, yeah, exactly, exactly. Taking an hour to leave the house and then going out and getting cold and being a bit miserable and then having to come back again.

Yes, absolutely, same old, same old.

Yeah, right, okay, well, let's get into the questions because there are a few ones that we wanted to get through, and we're gonna aim for about half an hour. Hopefully people can stick around for that. So the first question was, a 4-and-a-half-year-old gets quite angry at their younger sister and kind of seems to kind of attack her quite viciously. That's what the question says.

Yes.

Whilst playing, what kind of advice would you have for that?

One thing that I would say is, I don't know the age difference between these two, but, you know, a 4-and-a-half-year-old will have reached a stage of development where they're really kind of intent on their play, they've got a plan with it, and they know what it is that they want to do, and a younger sister or sibling will really interfere with that. Now, the thing to know about children is that they're very impulsive, they have big reactions to things, and they're very driven by their feelings. So they find it really difficult to sort of stop and get perspective and think, I need to be nice to my sister, or she doesn't mean to interrupt my play. They're in the moment, they're thinking, right, I can put the blinkers on, don't they? I've got the blinkers on, I'm going to do this, this, and this, and then along comes sibling and knocks it all over or just interferes. So it's not— it's totally normal that they would have that big reaction. I'd say two things. One is that the minute you start taking sides and blaming the one that's lashed out entirely, that gives the other one— it lets them off the hook, and it also kind of pits them against each other. The younger one will have been very carefully observing what happens, and so they will try and poke to get a reaction. And also, they're inquisitive, they want to join in that game because it looks more fun. You know, the older sibling's cleverer at doing stuff. So you've just got to be really careful not to always criticize and come down hard on the the hitter and let the other one sort of get away with it because they'll be crying and need comfort. So you kind of need to manage the game perhaps a little bit beforehand. If the older one is really interested in a game that they want to play on their own, perhaps you can raise it up a level, or you can, you know, engage the younger one in something different. But I would always say, as much as you can, try to just validate the difficulties that both have rather than leaping in and criticizing. And you can also train children— I mean, this takes time— but you can work with them to help them to manage their overreactions. That also slightly comes down to temperament. So you might— the older might have a very reactive temperament, which means like good and bad, you know, they'll be like so excited the fact that they're going to have a hot chocolate But they will equally be furious that their sibling has, you know, messed up their game.

Yeah, yeah, okay, all right. So kind of giving time to each one, like kind of even like stating what's happened, like, yes, you're upset that your little sister has interrupted your game, and just kind of acknowledging that as well.

And then very much— you're good at this. No, very much, yeah, no, acknowledging what's what's going on, because that helps them to understand that they're not a bad boy, they're not a bad older sibling, they're just incredibly frustrated by their younger sibling.

Yeah, I think that's what we've noticed is helpful as well, is kind of, yeah, is understanding that it's frustration, isn't it?

Yes.

And kind of helping them understand what it is that they're feeling, because sometimes the emotion can be quite big.

Yes.

It's too big for them to handle.

Absolutely. And that's when you get these big outbursts, when the emotion overtakes them. I mean, it's, you know, I'm sure you know, it's that sort of neurological response. It's that amygdala alarm going off. It's this huge trigger. And at that point, no amount of, "You need to be kind to your sister," will reach them because they're gone. It's, you know, it's literally like a massive alarm bell going. Yeah.

Okay. All right. Brilliant. Okay, well then let's go on to the second one. And this one was a 4-year-old who has started shouting when they want something or when they're being told off. Yeah, definitely experienced that one.

Yeah, I mean, again, the shouting is that overreaction thing. So it gets a reaction from us, it gets them noticed, it's quick, and Because, you know, it might be that they may have given an indication that they didn't like something or didn't want to do something and we haven't noticed. And it won't be at a conscious level that they'll be suddenly like, you know, shouting gets me noticed. So, I mean, definitely don't shout back. It's really, really tempting to shout back. Know that again, it's that alarm bell going off. Know that, I mean, I was talking about this in this, the masterclass I was doing last night, and honestly, if anyone wants to come on Wednesday night, you get some great insights. Who likes—

it's free as well, isn't it?

It's free, yes, totally free on my website or on my bio. Do follow me, guys, because there's, you know, there's, I put out loads of stuff. Now, where was I saying? Oh, I was talking about last night. Yeah, who, you know, if we stand, one of the big things I talk about is standing in their shoes. If you've done something that your husband or your partner or, you know, somebody didn't like, who likes being told off?

Yeah, I know.

Nobody likes, you know, who likes being told off? Of course our duty to our children is that we're wiser, we've got to guide them, we definitely need firm boundaries, and sometimes tough love. Sometimes just, you know, we've got to risk our children saying, "I hate you," or, you know, "You're not my friend," and we're not their friend. We absolutely need to guide them, but it's sort of how we do it. And it is a skill, you know, this is why I talk about the fact that we need to learn this. It is a skill because it doesn't come naturally to us. It comes naturally to us to notice the negative. So they're not going to like being told off, which is why they will shout back. Yeah, they've got to figure out a way of having them stop the behaviour that we're doing, and whether that might be by intervening ahead of time or having some systems to help without making them feel upset. I mean, sometimes the shouting back is through fear, actually. Because, you know, it triggers a fear response for them, and that's why they will shout. Sometimes they'll put their hands over their ears, and that's really them telling us, you know, "You telling me off doesn't work." But it's about adjusting your language, and again, you know, it's a language that can be learnt. But that is one of the reasons. Another reason I would say is quite quite often they will shout, and we actually might pay attention and do what they've asked. So we've got, you know, so they might say, "I don't want my shoes on!" And you go, "Okay, okay, calm down, you know, I'll take your shoes off." But what we need to do is say, "Whoa, just a minute, I can't hear that voice." 'That's not a voice you would use for your teacher at school, and you need to say that to me in a calm voice.' It's what I call an action replay. So that can help, but you know, like I say, sometimes that scream will actually— because we're fed up, we're in a hurry— will actually do what they want, and therefore they learn that that works.

Yeah, I think you're right. I think it's And it's very hard, like you said, it's a skill that we equally— we're kind of both learning together in a way. Because yeah, your initial reaction is just to kind of, oh, kind of— yeah, your frustration as well, because you're also frustrated. So it's like expressing your frustrations at each other. So it can be really, really difficult. But really hard. Yeah, it's just kind of— it's trying, isn't it? But also not— maybe not feeling bad if you have. Yeah, because that's something that you can acknowledge afterwards as and think about it once things have, like, de-escalated.

Totally. I mean, I'm really big on saying, apologizing. Just say, you know, "Mummy made a mistake." You know, I over— I mean, my kids, my teenagers will still tell me, "You really overreacted there, Mummy." And I'm like, "Yeah, you're right, I did, I did." You know, "You left the milk out, it went sour, and I came in to make my tea, and I just and it was an overreaction. You know, I don't want you to leave the milk out, but, but yeah, it's— yeah, so, so it's— it is about, uh, we're human. So say, you know, we can— we, we will have these knee-jerk reactions, uh, but, you know, apologizing or trying not to react like that in the first place can help. And, and no, learning how to phrase things differently so that you're still firm But you're not telling them off.

Yeah, I found that the times when I've recognized that I need to take a step back or kind of use different language, actually using the different language helps me. Yes, it helps the little one. Yes, it helps me realize this is actually— this is what I need to say to kind of help both of us through it. Yeah, so that makes sense.

Yeah, it totally does. And I think sometimes we feel resentful that, you know, part of the reason why we get cross is that in our heads is, you know, they shouldn't be behaving like this. I shouldn't have a child that's overreacting. I'm being taken for a ride. And, you know, I've got sort of mug written across my forehead. And then we'll often overreact. As a result of those inner dialogue. But if we can think, my responsibility here is to react in the best way so that they will learn, and I still keep boundaries, but I don't antagonise by shouting. Yeah, yeah, sounds easy. It's not.

I know, well, that's the thing. You're like, all of these things are like, yes, that makes total sense. And then, like I said, when you're in the moment, it can just all fly out the window. So it's, yeah, again, it's also, I think, being easy on yourself.

Yeah.

Realizing that it is, it's very difficult at the moment, really challenging.

So yeah, being kind. Yeah. I mean, I have a course that I've just released, and the first module of the course is all about looking after yourself. Because if we don't, you know, it's that, that thing with the oxygen mask that on a plane they tell you you've got to put yours on first.

Yeah.

If we don't If we're wearing ourselves thin and trying to be all things to all people and trying to have, you know, a perfect house, perfect diet, perfect exercise regime, be a perfect— we just wear ourselves down. And so, um, but it is totally about being kind to yourself.

Yeah, I agree. I actually had this moment— we're going off on a bit of a tangent now, but I feel like it's kind of relevant because I had this moment the other day where both of the kids were eating and I was kind of rushing around the kitchen trying to like tidy up after cooking. And actually my husband came and he was like, why don't you just sit down with them?

Yeah.

And just leave it. I was like, but I need to tidy up.

He's like, I know.

He's like, it's okay, you can leave it. And I was like, I needed to be given permission. Yes. To kind of sit down. I was like, you're right, that can wait.

Yeah. Yeah.

This, it's quite nice for them, for me, you know, to sit down. And actually when I did sit down, like my, yeah, my elder, she was like, oh, it's so nice that you're eating with us. You know, well, it made me feel a bit bad that I hadn't been before.

Yes.

You know, again, that you have those moments of realization where you're like, okay, yeah, that, that is the external stuff, which really annoys me. And you know, when you can see the mess and—

oh my God, learning to try and let go. I know, I know.

I'm trying.

It's so hard. And, and just to sort of think about, um You know, what do our children want more? Do they care whether those surfaces are wiped clean, or do they care about whether we're sitting with them? Yeah. And, you know, I get it because I can't stand it, you know, like it really grates at me if there's mess around, but I have had to just put my blinkers on and go, interaction, connection with the kids is just so much more important because they don't care. They're not worried. They don't care whether it's all perfect.

No, they don't, don't they? That's why they make the mess. They don't care. Yeah.

Yeah.

They don't care. Okay, great. Right, so next question was, I guess, well, kind of similar. There's a 3-year-old who's crying, who's not getting— if they're not getting their own way, is that they've tried ignoring it, they've tried kind of—

yeah, somebody was trying to phone me at the same time.

I was like, go away!

Not getting their own way. Yeah, I mean, part of it is about managing our expectation. 3-year-olds are egocentric, so are teenagers. They want life, you know, there's quite a big similarity, and it presses our buttons because, you know, part of our responsibility as parents is to raise children who are not selfish and demanding and, you know, little emperors. So, of course, we want them to understand that life doesn't all revolve around them and they can't dictate absolutely everything we do. But come from a place that it's normal for a 3-year-old to want their own way. And then when we do that, we can be much more empathetic to them. Because to just to think, yeah, you know, it's not surprising. But so we can do a few things. I mean, partly it's sort of managing something so that, you know, if they have been a little bit flexible and not had their own way over something, we can mention and praise that. Because you get more of what you focus on. So say, you know, they've said, "I want to play Lego now," or, you know, "play dollies now," and you say, "Right now I've got to sort the baby out and put her down for a nap, but I will come back to you as soon as that's done." And if they accept that, which occasionally they will, then you say, 'That was so great. You waited. You couldn't get what you wanted, but you waited.' It's really surprising how much impact noticing and mentioning the things that they are doing right will have. So that's one little trick. Another one is just adding in the empathy, you know, when it's also trying to catch them as it's building up. So, you know, try and get it before this massive alarm bell is going off, so that they're a little bit more able to reason. And at that point, you can say— go in with the empathy first— you can say, "I really understand you would just want it the way you want it, and you really wish that you could just, you know, play your game right now." It's so frustrating, isn't it? And when they feel validated and heard, they're much more likely to sort of calm down. The other thing is, it may be if it's reached that tantrum-y point, just try to help them through it. Because, you know, I don't know about you, Stephanie, but if I lose it, I really don't like myself. You know, I really, I feel awful.

Huge guilt afterwards.

You just feel— and but they're the same. Yeah. At that point when they're losing it, they don't like themselves, but they don't know how to stop.

Yeah.

So that's where the empathy will come in. And rather than looking at this spoiled little child, we're thinking, this child needs my help. Yes.

Yeah.

I— they need my help to calm down. And when they've calmed down, you know, that's if it's gone over the, over the hill. So when they've calmed down, then we can look at, you know, might ask the question. That's another really good tip, but not when they're right in the middle of it. Are you always able to get what you want? Can, you know, can you— you saw Mum was really busy, can we go out right now? And they'll know, they'll say, you know, no, you can't. But it's developmentally appropriate for them to want life to be revolved around them and them to want them to, like, you know, to have their own way.

Yeah, absolutely. I think that's so— yeah, that's such a good way of saying it. It's the reframing. And also, I think something I said to my husband the other day as well, I kind of had this light bulb moment.

Yes.

When you're trying to get out of the door, that's the kind of a point as well where a lot of people will, um, struggle. Or if you're in a rush and you're trying to get ready to go to nursery Yes. I said to him, I was like, actually, they don't, they don't have a schedule.

No, they don't care.

They could do, they could stay in their pajamas all day. They could play and do all of this. They don't, they're not looking at the time. So I agree that kind of trying, you're trying to get them to slot into a routine.

Yeah, totally. It's not their agenda. Yes, it's something I also, something I teach, you know, It's their agenda, our agenda.

Yes.

And we're expecting them to respect our agenda. They're 3, 4, 5, you know, they don't. They're in the moment. To them, you know, you're late for work, you know, they don't know what that means. So, I mean, I'm not saying it's easy getting kids out the door. It's, it's very hard. I have some systems. So one of the one of my freebies is called My Great System for Avoiding Challenging Behaviour, and employing that can be a really good way of managing it so that it's more successful. It won't always be because life isn't always like that, but it is definitely our agenda, their agenda, and they are in the moment, we're thinking ahead. So when they're playing and we're thinking, right, well, Dinner needs to be at 5:30 because then they have a bath, then they've gone to bed, and then I've got rid of them.

Yeah.

And they're thinking, I want to play, or, you know, I want to watch my screen. And that's why they'll scream when we say it's dinner time, or they'll run off.

Yeah, yeah. No, do you know what, we've started doing that more, like signposting.

Yes.

Kind of giving, like, warnings.

Yes.

Um, which— not like Not like this is your last warning, but as in, yeah, no, no, absolutely.

In 5 minutes again.

Does she understand the concept of time? Not necessarily yet, but even, I guess, you know, she understands that's what we will— that's the sign that signals we'd give. And sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but it's just trying to be a bit more consistent with that. Because again, I said to my husband, if I came along and you were watching football and I just switched off your match, I was like, you would be livid. You would not be happy with me at all. So I was like, let's just think of it like that. She's watching a football game that's really important to her.

Yes.

It's like, yeah, that's true, actually.

It's really true. It's a great point. And the other thing to know is that that screen, match, or whatever it is, is very addictive.

Yes.

So therefore, you're kind of cutting off their drug. So it's even harder. Sometimes I'll put alarms on, 5-minute warning, literally an alarm so that that they can hear it, even, or pause the program and say you've got 5 more minutes. That's a really good tip.

Yeah, you're right, because sometimes they just don't hear you. Paw Patrol is just, you know, Paw Patrol is addictive. Right, okay, so maybe we'll do one last one, which is the running off. So there's a 4.5-year-old who runs off without looking for cars in the road when they're out, despite kind of repeatedly telling him to.

Yes.

Any point?

Okay, so part of this is also about mentioning and kind of, yeah, mentioning when they're doing the right thing. So what we— and engaging them. So I would say, you know, hold their hand, walk to the— close to the edge of the pavement. As you're walking, say, "You need to tell me what's safe," so that you're kind of engaging them. And then when— if they— you know, I used to use— you know how there's the kind of bricks if you're in the city nearing the edge? So this side of the bricks is the safe bit. 'Um, so you need to tell me, uh, when— where it is that we need to stop.' Right. And you're much more like— so then they're a bit more— it's a part of it.

Yeah.

Um, rather than this sort of push-pull between us.

Yeah.

Um, and you can hold— you hold my hand. Um, we, you know, we— where do we stop? We stop at the edge of the bricks. Tell me if it's safe. Is it safe? Is it clear? Okay, we can go across. 'You can let go of my hand when we're perhaps closer, you know, in the park.' So again, it's slightly about that signposting— when they can and when they can't. Because what's happening often is that we're overreacting. They feel trapped. They feel like, 'We're never gonna be free of you. I'm never gonna be free of you.' And we're often like slightly overreacting, holding the hand that bit too tight because we're worried about the anticipation. But teaching them road safety is much more effective than telling them off when they're not being safe.

Okay, so kind of, yeah, giving them a bit of responsibility.

Giving them a little bit of responsibility. You tell me. And also kind of a good consequence, like you safely hold my hand as we cross the road, and then when we get to the park, you can run. But if they don't, you know, perhaps there's a little bit more 'No, then I hold your hand until we've gone right into the park.' That's the consequence if they were struggling or trying to pull away. So, you know, kind of positive consequences and negative consequences. They may still have to hold your hand a bit longer than they want to if they've tried to pull away.

Yeah, that is very, very helpful, actually. It's a nice way of kind of, yeah, looking at it and kind of approaching it. Great. Maybe actually we do have time for one more, which is— so I think a lot of people again will be able to kind of resonate with this one. So, 2-year-old, they've noticed that they whine and moan a lot. What would you say is the best response? Do you acknowledge their need or kind of what they're saying, or do you ignore?

I'd say it's a bit of everything. I've done a few reels about this, so people should have a look on my reels that they find quite funny. So I do these reels about 3 ways to address it. Sometimes it's a question of completely trying to change their focus. So, you know, coming in and saying something like, "I forgot to tell you something." That can be quite good to sort of snap them out. Sometimes the acknowledging, "I know you feel really upset, it's really hard." And sometimes it might be to say, "I just can't hear you." When you use that tone of voice, a bit like we were saying with the, you know, we need to rewind there if they shout. I would do that with the whining, you know. When you use that tone of voice, it's like a saw in my head.

Which is not too far off.

I can't listen to it. So you can, you know, you just— I'm gonna— you can even get a remote, pretend remote control, you go, I'm gonna rewind and you can ask me. And so, you know, other times it might be also might be not to think about, you know, they maybe they've been trapped inside a bit too long, maybe they need to do some star jumps or, you know, some form of physical activity and that can kind of snap them out of that. So, but if there isn't— and sometimes we need to walk away. Go into another room because it is that deep breath. Yeah, because it is the most annoying noise.

Yeah, yeah, I think that's, um, yeah, that's a good one as well. Like, to have is a, like, a plan B, right? Yeah, trying things. If it's not working, sometimes, yeah, it's removing yourself from the situation, isn't it? Because again, I'm sure we've all had those moments where you don't remove yourself and then and you get caught. Yeah, you get caught up in it and then, yeah, and then you get frustrated.

Yeah, and then you do things you don't want to do. Yeah, yeah.

Um, great. Well, those are kind of all the questions. I think they kind of covered quite a nice range of things.

We have covered quite a few things. Yeah, so just to say, um, do follow me, uh, My Parenting Solutions. Um, have a look at my website, myparentingsolutions.com, or my bio Lots of free resources. Wednesday evening at 8 PM, there's a webinar, uh, how to— the secrets to managing tantrums, meltdowns, and misbehavior. Uh, and, um, and thank you so much, Stephanie. It's, it's— I love chatting to you.

Welcome. Yeah, no, it's always, um, very insightful. And I think it's, um, yeah, definitely give Camilla a follow because she's got lots of kind of good little, like, digestible nuggets of, uh, like and tips. Um, I think it's nice to kind of go through, um, what we should be aiming for, reframing, but also understanding that we are all going through the same thing. And it's not, you know, it's not just your child. Everyone knows the similar challenges as well. So I think just knowing that you aren't alone.

Yeah, yeah.

Trying to arm yourself with those skills, but also it's okay if it doesn't go well. Yeah, because again, that is normal.

Yes. Yes.

Well, thank you so much for your time as well, and I hope that you all have a good day. Um, I'm going to save this on my IGTV as well, so if anyone kind of has come in at the end but wants to see what happened at the beginning, you can go back and rewatch it as well.

Great. Thanks, Steph.

Thanks so much.

See you.

Take care. Bye.