What do you do if they jump on the sofa and won't put their coat on?

No, thank you, Gemma, for joining me. We've got quite a few people come on, very patient people who I think saw me go off and come on again. And maybe just tell, tell us who you are and what your— so your— what your kind of, yeah, family situation is, who you've got.

Yeah, no, absolutely. Thanks, guys. Yeah, and I appreciate your patience with kind of those issues. So, um, I gave a little intro before, um, so I, um, yeah, so I'm Gemma, um, I'm actually I'm actually a sleep coach for kind of like with parents antenatally to 4 years old, and we've got 2 young boys, a 4-year-old and a 2-year-old. And we came to Camilla kind of recommended through a friend actually, because we were really struggling with our eldest behavior predominantly. And we just, we, yeah, we just didn't really know kind of how to tackle it and how to kind of deal with it really. Obviously from the sleep side, I know exactly what I'm doing, but in terms of kind of like the toddler, the rest of the toddler behavior, it was hard. So yeah, no, I just was very frustrated and quite angry, and my husband and I just were at a bit of a loss about how to kind of, you know, cope with it and how to move forward and have a bit more like happy family dynamics rather than you know, a lot of nos, or a lot of everything you ask them, um, they just won't do, basically. Um, so yeah, so obviously we found you and then, um, yeah, started chatting to you, and yeah, we took it from there.

And tell me, because this— I'd love to know if you can kind of almost like summon up that feeling. Like, I think a lot of parents feel very alone They feel there's a lot of sort of shoulds.

This—

it shouldn't be this way. They, you know, I should be better, I should be more patient, or they should be better. And, and they will often delay reaching out because they kind of think, you know, oh, perhaps this is just a phase, perhaps, you know, perhaps I'd just be better away, or, you know, it's a bit embarrassing trying to get help. I don't know, you know, what was the feeling there for you?

I think as you You say it is a kind of, um, you have a better, you know, weekend and you're like, oh yeah, everything's kind of changed, like, you know, it'll be fine. And then, you know, the week goes on or whatever, and then you have another tricky few times after nursery, or you go to a party and it's very hard again. Or, um, some of the practical things that kind of will go into that we, we learned through, through you. And then I think it just kind of came to a point that we And for me, to be completely honest with you, like, ever since I've become a mum, like, honesty is number one for me. I don't think there's any— and that kind of translates through to my sleep world.

Yes.

Yeah, totally. And, you know, I speak to parents obviously, and their friends' children are sleeping loads, and they're like, what am I doing wrong? And like, you know, it can, it can translate to, you know, behavior as well. And if we don't talk about it enough, everyone just thinks 'Oh my God, everyone else's child is just an angel and I have a nightmare child. Like, how? What have we done wrong?' Or yeah, and then you kind of, kind of, you can start to go on like the self-blame, like, 'Yeah, what have we done wrong?' Or, 'Yes, what should we have done?' You know, and yes, there's no manual.

Um, did you find it caused friction between you a bit as well? Like, you know, if one was, was— you, you kind of said, 'Well, you know, you shouldn't have told them to do that,' or, 'You should have done this'? I don't know if you ever had that.

Yeah, we did, we did a little bit. I mean, on the whole, like, we're quite fortunate that my husband and I parent in quite the same way. Like, we've got quite the same views and we were brought up quite— well, I wouldn't say similarly, but we can see, like, the positives and the negatives maybe from our backgrounds. And so, yeah, a little bit, obviously. And just when you're tired and everyone's a bit stressed and angry, it's only natural, obviously, to kind of feel a bit You know, like you're clashing. Exactly. And, um, but it was more like we felt really clashing just like with our elders and we just kind of felt like it was, it was quite a hostile environment. Um, and neither of us are— we're both very like loving, as I said, honest, empathetic people. And we were kind of like, we— this doesn't have to be how it is.

Yes.

Um, Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And what were— um, because I know also you found that they were quite a lot daddy, daddy.

Yes.

You felt like you weren't, you know, like, what's wrong with me?

Yeah.

What would you want to just describe that a little bit?

Yeah, so, so absolutely. So kind of, um, a big part of it as well, it was that the fact that, um, my boys were kind of very, you know, wanted daddy to do stuff, and I, I struggled to you know, whether it be to get them dressed or, you know, to get them in the car. Um, and they would play up a lot more for me than for— than from them, my husband. Um, and I think, you know, it's like, it's really hard because like in society generally, as a huge stereotypical, more dads are working, so more mums are kind of with their children more and kind of become the primary caregiver and so on and so forth. And with my husband's— in my relationship we're both very— it's totally 50/50, you know. So my husband is around the kids and stuff just as much as, you know, I am and what we're doing. And, and I think it, it knocks on your confidence. So I think something that really helped working with you was to then build my, you know, confidence. Because like, kids are like sponges, so they can sense if you're feeling a little bit unsure, or, you know, they need to know where they stand and boundaries and, you know, kind of all of that stuff, which I was starting to struggle with a little bit, I think, because of the rejection, you know. And that's actually what, you know, that's what they need. And kind of like working with you had built my confidence again to put that in place. And then they know a bit more, oh, I know where I stand with mummy. Yeah. And, you know, and then that kind of helped. And I think on the— I speak to a lot of friends and it's kind of similar as well, just in terms of mums are often kind of the more sensible, you know, we're thinking about what clothes they've got, have they got in their nursery bag, are they doing football. Yeah, exactly. Whereas the dads are just like in there, like, rough and tumble, doing this, doing that, and it is really fun. And so I think also to kind of just bring back a bit of, you know, my personality into the parenting as well, like, has really has really helped. And, um, and I don't know, I mean, obviously, you know, I've got two boys. I don't know what it's like to, you know, have a girl or whatever, but especially with the boys, they're really physical. Yes, they really like all that rough and tumble play and everything. And, you know, some, to a certain extent, you know, sometimes I say with like my sleep work, like, obviously, you know, we're exhausted and actually you might not want to do that, but just give it 10 minutes.

Yeah.

And it makes such a difference.

Yes. Yes, yeah, no, it's so true, it's so true. And that confidence thing, I remember saying to you, um, because you said, you know, they'll often scream like, you know, go away, I want Daddy. And, and I said, look, just like act as if, you know, kind of just walk into the room, hi guys, I'm here, you know, with that sort of— even if you sort of fake it till you make it, um, I think that it, um— I mean, one of the guarantees that I have with my course, the Parent Survival Academy, is that you become A calmer and more confident parent. And, you know, I just think that that's so helpful. I mean, I think so many parents, it's that you just start, that sense of stress ramps up. Yeah. We, and I think particularly as mums, there's that kind of, they call it the mother load. You know, we hold so much information in our head. Yeah. And, and you, you know, you're absolutely right. We tend to be the more kind of sensible. So we're thinking ahead a lot more. So we're thinking, right, well, if they don't have their, you know, their lunch now, I'm not— I can't really play because if they don't get their lunch now, they need to get some protein and they need to get some carbohydrates and they've got to get the vegetables. So I better peel some carrots. And then, oh God, you know, right, get the bag packed for tomorrow and sign them up for the football class and reply to the mums in the WhatsApp because they're going to the party. You know, all these things that we've got in our head. And it can really be to the detriment of like having a bit of rough and tumble before lunch, even if lunch is going to be 10 minutes late. And, and that's where I think dads tend to be better about that sort of thing. I mean, it's funny, there's, um, many years ago I went to— there's a, there was a book called Men Are from Mars, Women Are from Venus. It's a great book actually, and Um, we— I went actually live to see him talk. It was amazing. And one of the things that he said is that— and he says it in the book too, um, but he said there were two things. He said, um, men tend to relax before— they need to relax before they get their jobs done, and women just need to have to get their jobs done in order to relax. Like I can't think of anything else until, you know, I've cleaned up and I've wiped down and I've packed the bag and I've made the lunch. And, and, and therefore that the sort of time, the kind of relaxed fun time with the kids, gets kind of gets compromised. Um, but the other thing he said is that women is— when we're all about preparation. And he said, he asked women in the audience, he said, you know, what have you got in your handbag? And women were like, well, I've got some ibuprofen, I've got a plaster, I've got baby wipes, I've got— and, you know, there are all these things. And, and And we love to help each other. Like, you know, a mum might say, you know, oh God, you know, my child's got a, you know, oh, here you go, I've got a plaster. And they're like, man, what have you got? They're like, wallet, phone, you know, not even necessarily these days, you know, don't even necessarily have a wallet anymore.

Totally, exactly.

And there was no helping each other out, or, you know, it was just like, you know, nope, because I'm kind of a bit more at the moment. So that's often also where a clash will come. But that, you know, that idea that if you can, you know, we're not going to change, but if we can just feel that bit more confident and a bit calmer and think, do you know what, even if lunchtime is a bit late, I'm gonna have a pillow fight or a bit of a cuddle, or I'm gonna do something silly. And I'm often encouraging parents you know, just, just be a bit sillier, like pull a stupid face, make it like, use a funny voice, go into song, dance about a bit. And, and you, it's amazing, you know, the other thing I talk about in the course is this idea of building on connection. And it's amazing when you feel more connected, they feel more connected with us, how much more cooperative they are.

100%. And do you know what, like, on that basis, and that's a lot what I kind of talk to my toddler, you know, sleep clients about, it's the connection. And people are having bedtime battles, and I'm sure, you know, you work with your clients as well. And it's that connection and have that fun time, give them some control, like, give them— obviously we all give our children love, but just really emphasize it, you know, just have that one-on-one time. Have some fun, like you're saying, have a pillow fight. And, and I think one— I always remember like one of our conversations, and because we're not strict, but we kind of do really like our boys to be very well behaved. But then, you know, they were like bouncing on the sofa and we'd kind of get a bit het up by it. And I remember you kind of saying like, well, does it actually matter? And we were like, well, no, actually, you know, like if they go to Grandma and Grandpa's or whatever. And you know what, we actually had that yesterday. We went and they started doing it, and then we said, we don't do that here, do we? And they got off, and it was just— that was it.

Yeah.

And at home, you know what, it— no, it doesn't matter. Like, they're having a bit of fun, we're not getting stressed out by it, as long as anyone isn't getting hurt. Like, actually, just sometimes just let go of the small things that actually don't matter because it only stresses you out.

Yes, yes, absolutely. And another thing I'll often advise is like let them choose clothes. Like, you know, we can get really irate if they're not looking, you know, if they've got sort of horrible clashes or kind of they're inappropriate, you know, it's the t-shirt's a bit too small or—

yeah.

And I think we'll often think it's, you know, it's a bit of a reflection on us, like if they're seen when we're out and they're not looking all sort of nice and well presented. 'People are going to think we're bad parents,' but, you know, just like, so kind of who cares? And the other, like, massive liberation for parents is I'll say, 'Don't fight about the coat. Like, let them be a bit cold.' You know, I mean, sometimes they don't even feel it. Like, they're running around, they've just got so high energy, they just burn, they just run hot. But, you know, just take the coat. And if you're out and they're cold, 'Put it on.' Yeah, I mean, just like, and it, for so many parents, it's like, 'Oh my God, I have no idea.' Because it's a battle to get that on before.

I mean, I've even said, I mean, we did that exactly today. Like, it was sunny, so my boys were like, 'Oh, it's hot outside,' and I was like, 'Well, it's not, but that's fine, you know, we'll just go out.' I just put the coat in the bag, and I just thought, you can work out. If you then say, 'Oh, Mummy, I'm cold,' then I'll just put the coat on, you know, rather than have a fight at the door about it. Yes, there's just no— um, exactly. And the outfit thing again is just so relevant because I was, you know, quite like that. And I, you know, kind of superficially, like, oh, I had nice clothes for the boys and whatever, you know, we all do it. But then, yes, it's like today, my eldest Josh, he had like these like welly socks on that he really wanted, and he pulled them right up. And do you know what, I was like, you just go like you're happy we're out, like, it's great. And actually, and the judgment thing, other parents who will know and they see it and you kind of like, they kind of smile at you because they're like, okay, yeah, you've had the same kind of like, you know, they get it. Um, yes, yeah, yeah, it's just, it's just, it's just to try and take everything a bit more lighter than sometimes it can feel so heavy, you know, and it doesn't, it doesn't, obviously, like, don't get me wrong, it's not perfect all the time, obviously, because like nothing, nothing ever is. But I think it's, um, yeah, it's definitely a lot lighter. And, um, yeah, we can laugh about things a bit more than kind of we, we had done before.

That's really lovely. I mean, it's just, you know, what I'm often, um, telling parents is that the foundation— I don't work with parents of teens because I want to help people while they're still under 10. That's kind of my niche. And there, when we get this foundation right— I mean, like, not perfect. When I say right, you know, when we feel confident, when we feel skilled, when we've got a tool, like, and a situation pops up, and it might be something quite painful, like they didn't get invited to a party, or they're, you know, they're really upset because they weren't picked to star of the week, or they weren't picked to play in a football team or something like that. You know, there are so many situations like that will pop up, and when we've got this brilliant foundation— well, I call it brilliant because I just think, you know, it's just like, oh wow, I know what to do here. Exactly. I feel confident, I feel skilled, I can really help my child. And And, and as I say, you know, always say it's just really not about being perfect, but it is— this takes you through. Um, and you know, when, when our kids do hit those teenage years, um, we've got that really strong connection. We're also authority, you know, because I'm very big on, on— and I know you were like that too. And sometimes we can get a bit too much, too strict. Yeah. But you know we have their respect.

Absolutely.

And then they'll ask us for advice, or we can kind of say if they've stepped out of line, we can kind of, without making a big drama, kind of go, you know, my, as teens, they kind of go, I need a lift. And I go, oh, interesting way of asking.

Yes, exactly.

And then they go, oh, sorry, can I have a lift, please? Can I have a lift, please?

But it's Yeah, no, it's definitely— and we, we really found that kind of, um, kind of empathetic, um, yes, just as you say, like, I want my boys to be able to come to me and I don't want them to ever feel like, oh, I've done something wrong, I can't tell mummy or daddy, you know. Yes, we will always— it's the empathy and the understanding, but also exactly kind of holding the boundaries at the same time. Like, we'll give them space, yes, to have those feelings, to you know, if they messed up or whatever it might be. And as they get older, as you say, if they don't get picked for the football team or they don't go to a party, you know, to have that— I understand that that's really disappointing and you might be feeling angry, you might be feeling upset, you might be feeling all this stuff, and that, that is okay. Yeah. Um, you know. Yeah, but yeah, exactly. So that's, you know, that's like again what we've really, we've really, really learned. Um, especially, yeah, with kind of toddler frustration and anger. Yes, you know, it's okay to be angry. Yeah, um, let's try and maybe do this next time when we're feeling, um, feeling like that.

Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. And so, um, I haven't even mentioned— I always mean to mention this, um, as, as people join. So I have two, um, free masterclasses this week, um, which are called Beyond the Battles The Three Insider Secrets to Managing Tantrums, Rudeness, and Kids Who Say No. So anybody that's watching, I'd love you to join, and it's a free masterclass and you'll get lots of value. And I also will invite you to join my course, the Parent Survival Academy. It comes with group calls. I know, Gemma, you did individual calls with me. And in fact, I was going to say to you, we can talk about you if you wanted to join those group calls as well. It might be fun. Um, but, um, it's just I am so passionate, and I know you are with your sleep work too, you know. That's why we're so aligned. I'm just so passionate about helping parents feel calmer, have a happier home life, feel more confident, and, um, The course is, um, I think it's like gold dust. I think it's just, you know, such a great investment, um, to learn. And, and the, the format, um, which I know you really enjoyed, is like the, you know, you watch videos and then you come together, um, with my, with my support and coaching. Um, and so that's actually only open for a few days. So if anybody is watching this and, um, wants to join, I actually don't even know if it's the link. The link in my bio is definitely to join the webinar, but I'm just thinking that there's so little things. I think the link to join the Parent Survival Academy is not up, but I'll put it up. But if anybody is interested and wants to send me a DM, I can send them, send them the information. So, um, but I know, I, I know it's your Sunday evening and I don't want to keep you. I could talk. Yeah, wherever.

Yeah, me too. Absolutely. Exactly. And the link between the sleep world and all sorts and the behavior and everything that we've learned. But yeah, no, it's been, it's been great and and, um, yeah, like if anyone's kind of struggling with their kids or just think, yeah, feeling they need some other ways and tactics and ideas, or yeah, if you're just like lacking a bit of confidence, you know, as a parent, uh, which is totally natural, you know, we've all kind of felt like that. Or if you're feeling really, yeah, angry, or you're like, you've shouted a few more times than actually you really want to, you know. And again, there's no shame in that, like it happens and we move on. But, um, Yeah, no, I would highly recommend it because, yeah, we've come a long way.

Yeah, yeah. Well, it was, it was an absolute pleasure coaching you guys, and, um, I know that, you know, we had— you had tears in some of the sessions.

Absolutely.

And, you know, it's just— yeah, I, I always say it is the best and the hardest job you'll ever do.

Yeah.

Um, and no other job in the whole world would you do a really hard job without getting some training. Yeah, why do we think that we should just be able to just do it? Um, yeah, so anybody watching, um, do book on to my free masterclass. You would get a replay if you can't. I recommend you coming live, but you would get a replay if you can't. And also I will pop in the course, the Parent Survival Academy, because I'm taking a group through, um, and we have Sessions together and you'll learn tons. So Gemma, thank you so much for your time, and I'm sure I shall speak to you soon.

Absolutely. Thanks, Camilla. I'll speak to you soon.

Cheers. Take care.

Bye.