How To Protect Your License As A Therapist Adding Coaching W/ Attorney Christy Westerfeld [Ep 4]

Welcome to the thriving TherapyNewer podcast. The show for ambitious therapists who are ready to unapologetically make more money, scale their impact and build their dream coaching business. I'm Carly Hill, therapist turned coach turned CEO of a seven figure online business. I created the Thriving Therapener podcast because I'm obsessed with helping big hearted therapists outgrow the office and build successful and sustainable online businesses. So if you are wondering how you can continue make an impact without sacrificing the life you love. Welcome Therapeneur. This is exactly the place for you. Think of it like the business school we never had. I am so excited to dive in with you. Let's get started. Hello and welcome back to another episode of the Thriving Therapeneur podcast. Today we have a special special guest, Christy Westerfeld. We have been working together for, gosh, I think a few years now on.

It's been a while.

Yeah, yeah. Helping therapists protect their license. So that's what we're going to be talking about today. Christie's going to drop some top tips. Answer your most burning questions on how therapists can ethically legally add coaching. Because it's not as hard as you think. It's very doable. I know it can be daunting, but I always say it's not an excuse to not expand your services. So Christy is an attorney. I think you've been an attorney for over a decade now. Tell us a little bit about yourself and how you even got into specializing in helping therapists at coaching. I know you work with online coaches, entrepreneurs, but tell us about this hyper niche because it's pretty specialized and there's not a lot of you out there.

Yes, I know. I love this little niche that we are in. Yes. I've been an attorney since 2012, so this is my 12th year in practice, which feels a little bit wild. And I started working in corporate law like, you know, many of us attorneys do, and just sort of, it wasn't fulfilling for me. I sort of checked all of the boxes that I was meaning to hit in my life, you know, and I was like, okay, I did, I did the things and here I am in my job and like, now what? You know, it just, it wasn't, it wasn't it for me. I loved where I worked. I loved the people. It just wasn't my end all, be all. And I started becoming curious about, like, is there a way that I could help people in a better fashion? You know, I was doing corporate law, so it was all big Companies, it was all people. And I wasn't really able to help people in a way that I. That I thought I could, you know, with. With my legal knowledge. So I went out on my own, and I started working with a lot of other coaches. And I came into that field because I was actually a health coach as well. I was a certified health coach on the side of corporate law, which, like, in all my free time, it was just something that I was passionate about, and I was trying to find a passion amongst. In the job, you know, that. That we do sometimes. So I ended up with a lot of other coaches, and they would find out I was a lawyer and say, whoa, can you help me with my terms? Can you help me with, you know, how to ethically provide health and wellness services? You know, and I'm not a doctor or I'm not this and that. And I started doing that just sort of on the side, and I realized, wait a minute, like, I love doing this. You know, I love being able to help other women who want to start businesses and.

And there's a need for it, too.

Yeah. And it. It felt really good for me, right, to be able to actually help someone move the needle in their own entrepreneurial journey. And that's really how I found the therapist and coaching world is somebody came to me and said, okay, I'm a licensed therapist and I want to do coaching. And I was like, oh, okay. And so I really, like, deep dove into all of the ethical requirements from a legal perspective and started really doing a lot of trainings on it. Started, you know, reaching out to other state licensing boards and really understanding the licensing piece, because I knew all the legal pieces at that point. And it just became fascinating to me of, like, this is a really interesting niche, but also, like you said, this is needed, right? Like, this is. Therapists are so educated. They're so well equipped to help people. Why do we put so much red tape on it to where they can't utilize their education in a more broad way? Right. Like, I started becoming fired up about, like, hold on, like, there should be a better way here. And so it just worked out that I, you know, I had something that could be helpful in assisting therapists with reaching a broader audience and. And doing a course or writing a book or. Or becoming a coach or adding coaching, you know, or whatever they wanted to do and to really help them see, as you said, that it's not a hurdle that can't be overcome. Right. A lot of therapists, as you know, think it's really Scary. It's daunting, right? They've just worked so hard to build their license and to, you know, to build their private practice and can I really do something else, you know, without getting in trouble? So it was just. It was a really cool opportunity for me to. To serve in a. A different way and in a way that I was passionate about.

Well, thank God, because I am so lucky to have found you, because you helped me back in the day when I was making the transition from therapist to coach and I called you and that's really how our relationship started, was, you know, Christy, can I do this? Like, I feel like I'm coaching already in my quote, unquote private practice. I was studying the online industry, seeing all of these coaches. What did they know that we don't know? How are they so successful? How can I take all of my clinical knowledge, leverage it, impact more lives nationwide, worldwide? We have the inner jurisdictional limitations with our license. And so you really helped me through that process. And of course, when I created the Therapist to Coach accelerator, continued to guide me through the process of helping other therapists, hundreds of therapists at this point, cut that red tape and protect their license. So let's just dive in and start to riff on some of these tips on what therapists need to do when they are in that point of transitioning or adding coaching. What would you say is some of the first steps that they need to make sure that they're taking?

Yeah, you know, it. There's a number of different ways, you know, that somebody could start branching out. But the things that come to mind for me are. Are oftentimes the ones that we get the most pushback on. Right. But it's. It's really creating that different business. Is. Is really where I would say it starts and, and before then, really I would say is. Is just envisioning what it is you want to coach on. Right. When you have that desire for a coaching business, you know, as a therapist, really flesh that out. Right. And I know that's what you help people do, so it's a nice transition. But what is it that you want to do? Right. How do you currently serve people in your private practice? And how do you see that fitting into creating an online course or coaching people or, you know, what is it that you want to do? And I think that really helps people sort of see the vision of, like, here's what I do in, you know, as a therapist. How can I do this sort of, you know, differently or, you know, how do I act as a Coach.

And I think that's confusing for people. Oftentimes that's like one of the number one questions I get is like, how can I differentiate myself as a therapist and a coach? And I think to your point, it comes down to really understanding what the difference between therapy and coaching is. So you can use your clinical discernment.

Yeah. And I think people. I know you, I know you talk about this a lot too, but I think it really comes down to exactly understanding the differences. Right. In a clinical practice, right. You're. You're treating people, you're diagnosing, you're treating, you're help. You're helping people really deep dive into things that they're struggling with or things that they're working on. Right. That's a different tone than acting as someone's guide, someone support, accountability, partner. Right.

As a coach, the situational, non clinical, less severe problems.

Yeah. It's someone that is objectively healthy. Right. And I'm using air quotes on that because that's a term that's so subjective. But someone that is. Is not in dire need of therapy, right. That there's someone that is. Maybe they want to work on achieving a goal. Right. Maybe they're struggling with something and they don't necessarily need treatment for it, but they're like, hey, you know what? I think I could make a difference in my own life by whatever, right. Developing better habits. If it's. If you're in the health and wellness space, right. Or learning more about certain nutrition elements or whatever. Right. Like you. It's someone that doesn't need treatment but could certainly use education and support and guidance and accountability.

They could be getting treatment elsewhere and still be a fit for your coaching program. Right?

Yeah, yeah. I think it just. A lot of the confusion really stems from all of that, right. Like how do I act as a therapist and a coach and can I do both? Right. And I think people need to understand, number one, not with the same person, right. You can't act as someone's therapist and their coach. And you know this. But it's really. Because the overarching principle in all of this, and we'll talk about, you know, the nitty gritty of like, what to do step by step. But, but really the, the forest, right, that the big picture is, is we don't want people to think that coaching and therapy are interchangeable. We don't want them to think that coaching is a substitute for therapy. That someone could come, you know, to the private practice website in need of treatment. Right. In need of Therapeutic services and think that coaching is, oh, I'll just do this instead, right? Or, oh, she has an online course, I'm going to do that instead. Now, there may be a, an opportunity where that does make sense. But by and large, we, we want to protect that therapist client relationship, right? If someone is coming to you in need of therapy, we want to protect that. We don't want someone to end up in your online course. We don't want someone to not get the help they need from you, the therapist, because they're confused about seeing all this coaching stuff, right? So we want to present ourselves to the, to the space, to the world, very clearly and very intentionally, right? When we are a therapist and a coach. And this is why I know I get a lot of pushback on this sometimes you probably do too, Carly. But this is why I always recommend the businesses are separate, the websites are separate, right? We, we separate the businesses and that's why, right? We need to protect that therapist client relationship so that somebody coming to you in need, right? They're severely depressed, they're severely anxious, they're having postpartum, you know, issues or whatever it is, right? That's top of mind because I just had a baby. But whatever the issue is that they really need treatment on, right? They're seeking treatment for the trauma, the anxiety, the depression, the whatever it is, right. We don't want them to get sidetracked with the coaching because that's not for them, right? So that's why my number one is always separate the business, separate the website. The other reason we want to separate the businesses is we don't want to give the appearance that we're practicing outside state lines, right? So we want to make sure that when we're looking at our bookkeeping, right. Our revenue, the private practice is not receiving money from all over the world, right? Because in the coaching space, you're not limited geographically, you're not limited to where your, your license is, right? And that's part of the appeal as long as we do it right. So we don't want to give the appearance that we're just practicing everywhere in the world. We're receiving money from everyone. We're creating an issue with that. So that's why it's always my number one to create two separate businesses. Your coaching business could be a sole proprietorship. It doesn't have to be expensive, right? You can do it in a way that saves money or that doesn't spend extra money and that you either have two separate websites or the way that your website is set up is very clear that the two services are not one in the same. It's not an either or. It's not, oh, look, you're coming to me for therapy. How about this online course instead? Right. We really need to protect that therapist client relationship. And if there is an avenue where someone comes to you for therapy and then they end up being a good fit for coaching, that's the unusual scenario. Right. We don't want to divert your private practice clients to your course. We need again to make sure that that's a clear and easy path for them to reach out to you for. For treatment. Right. And that the coaching is marketed to a different audience. Right. It's not. This is another thing I get pushed back on all the time. Right. Is people say, well, why can't I market my online course to my, you know, email list of therapy clients? Right. And it's the same answer. Right. Like, is there a chance that someone could be a good fit for it? Probably. That's not your market for coaching. Right. Your therapy email list or people who've worked with you as a therapist. That's not your target audience for your course typically.

Right.

These are people that already see you as a therapist. They've already worked to do as a therapist or they're going to in the future. They may, you know, that's how they see you. And people can't really unsee you as a therapist. Right. Once they let you in on that deep level as their therapist. Right. We can't really go back from that. And then they'll see you as a coach. Right. You're always going to be their therapist. And that's why we don't want people jumping buckets, so to speak, and being like, oh, you're my therapist now. You're my coach now. You're my therapist. Like, we need to just make a very clear line down the middle of your therapist clients stay over on the left, your coaching clients stay on the right. Right. And there's very few instances where it's okay to jump between the two.

Yeah. And ethically it's considered a dual relationship as well. Like you said, they can't unsee you as their therapist. Now here's a question for you. What if you're not actually doing coaching with them? So you have private practice and you create a psycho educational course, but there's no coaching component. You're not doing any one to ones with them. It's strictly psycho education. Maybe you do have a coaching program and separate business entity, separate bank account all the things to protect your license things, and you're actually doing coaching with those coaching clients. And so you're not going to take private practice client and plug them into coaching business. But could you sell a la carte? Now, this is maybe not something you market openly on your website or your Instagram, et cetera, but say you're working with clients, you find yourself maybe repeating yourself often. You think that some of the psycho educational components inside your coaching course could help them get faster results. Could that be something that you offer to them as long as you have in your coaching or in your private practice paperwork, that you're releasing the power differential that they don't have to purchase that product or services in order to get X, Y, Z therapy results?

You could. This stuff isn't. I mean, you know, this. But it's. It's not all black and white. Right. I think that's a scenario where it's. It could work again. We just want to really make sure that we're not confusing that person. Right. So if they're there for therapy and they need treatment, when we're offering other things, it's like the shiny object, right. When we're offering them, like, here's this other course, here's this other material, here's their stuff. I think there's a way to introduce it. Where it could work. Yes. Where we're saying, you know, we've been working together, I'm not becoming your coach, but here's an additional resource that you may want to listen to. Let's say it's a prerecorded course. Right. Could that be beneficial for somebody in therapy? I'd think so. Right. And it would be up to the therapist to, to know, you know, know this client, know what the resources are. And I think it goes back to again, just keeping that clarity around the relationship and not confusing the person. Because you as a therapist and coach and, you know, psychoeducator, you have a very clear understanding of your offerings. Right. But then when you flip it over and you are the client and let's say you're, you know, you're. You want. You want therapy. Right. When someone starts introducing other stuff, we don't want to muddy the water about it. Right. We don't want to say, oh, well, you know, now me as the client, I wanted therapy with Carly, but now she's saying she offers this course, well, maybe I need to buy this course. Well, now there's this. Maybe I need to do this. We don't want to create a scenario where they're sort of bouncing around and not quite sure where they need to be or what they're doing, you know. So I think it depends a lot on how the courses or materials are introduced to the client. Right. Maybe not like right out of the gate. Maybe people that have been in therapy with you for a while and maybe then we want to, you know, add one thing. Like, I think that could work as long as everyone is very clear about the relationship and we're not making it a confusing scenario where someone thinks, oh, well, now I'm. Now she's my coach. Or like you said, well, buying this course is part of my therapy. Right. Like it's not. It needs to be presented in the right way so that they're understanding it's not just a part of the treatment. It's a separate thing that's totally optional, they don't have to do, but that it's available if they want the additional education. Right. And leave it solely up to them. Make it very clear that it's education. Right. That may or may not work for them. Right. We have to just take a step back. When we're doing any sort of non therapy work with someone, whether it's coaching, whether it's teaching a course, you know, speaking, anything like that. Right. We have to just be aware of what we're. Who we're targeting, who we're speaking to and the limitations around that.

Yeah. I always give the example, like if you have a brick and mortar, so therapy practice and you're selling essential oils at the front desk. Right. Like you can do that, but you don't want your clients to be confused or pressured or to jeopardize rapport or think that they need XYZ products, whether it be digital products or physical products, to actually yield results in the therapeutic services. So if you be careful about how you offer it, and if you do offer it, make sure that you have something in your paperwork that is letting them know that they don't have to purchase XYZ product or services.

I would have it in the paperwork. But also make it a very, a very clear conversation too. Right. Because that person is probably in a little bit of a vulnerable state.

Right.

They're trusting you as their therapist. They're trusting you with their treatment. They've probably told you a lot of personal things. Right. And so if you guide them toward another product. Exactly what you said. Right. They're gonna feel pressure to buy it. They're gonna feel, oh, well, this is how, you know, she's telling me to do this. So this is what I need. Right. It feels a little risky if it's gonna be a situation where it's taking advantage, even if unintentionally. Right. Taking advantage of the relationship where the client's gonna go, oh, I need, you know, Carly's telling me I need this, so I need this. She's my therapist, so I, I would approach it very cautiously. You know, I think there's scenarios where it could make sense. I do think that's probably the case. Would I suggest that as a business model? No. Right. I don't think, I don't think. I don't think you should market non therapy products and services to your therapy clients. Almost never. Is there a scenario where it could work? Yes.

Right.

But I think as a general business plan, I wouldn't suggest having that as like a source of revenue. I wouldn't say suggest that as a plan. As far as marketing to your therapy clients, I really think it needs to be separate.

When in doubt, everything the majority of the time.

Right, Right. And you never want to jeopardize your relationship with your clients. Right. As a therapist, you never want them to feel like they can't trust you or like they're being sold to. People can feel that, you know, when they're being sold to. And you don't want someone to say, well, I really like Carly as my therapist, but now she's telling me to buy all these courses and I don't want them or I don't know what they are. I don't quite understand. And now I feel a little icky about the relationship. Right. Like we don't want to jeopardize the comfort of our patients or clients. As a therapist. Right.

Yeah. Being in integrity using our clinical discernment. And also this goes back to what we were talking about the very beginning, like really understanding the difference between therapy and coaching. And when is the time and the place and the space for therapy. Treating medical necessity for when is the time and the place in the space for coaching? Sometimes people don't need therapy and they just need a coach. Sometimes people go after coaches and they really need to be treated for medical necessity. So I always say that you're the expert, you're the clinician, you can use your clinical discernment, take the lead. Client doesn't necessarily get to choose. Right. You get to point them in the right direction based on the assessment and what they're needing. Absolutely.

Yeah. I think that that's important too, you know, to realize you have the upper hand. Not in a. Not In a negative way, but just from an educational perspective. Right. Like we were saying, like when a client comes to you, they might not know if they need therapy or coaching.

Right.

They may just say, I'm experiencing xyz. You know, people aren't going to know the difference between therapy. I mean, it's what we do. So we know the differences between therapy and coaching very well. Right. But the average person coming in is probably not going to understand the differences. And so I think it is up to you as the clinician, not you, Carly, but you, the general, to understand. Here's what's going on. If you want to assess each person before you, you know, allow them to purchase a co. A coaching package with you, I think that's a good idea. And really, really keeping that clear line about it not being interchangeable. It's not one in the same, you know, it's not. Oh, therapy and coaching are pretty much the same thing. You know, like that's not where we want any client to be in terms of understanding your services. We don't want them to ever think it's. It's an either or or. They can jump back and forth. They can buy your course and then do a couple sessions with you as a therapist and then coaching package. Like we need to be very clear in how we are bringing people into.

Our space and also not using it as a loophole where client is out of state and you're like, oh well, you know what, I'm just going to be your coach instead of your therapist. That's not being in integrity just because we have the inner jurisdictional regulations. Right. So are you treating them for medical necessity or not? That's what deciphers. Are you in a therapeutic relationship or a coaching relationship? So let's go back and kind of go through maybe like the checklist of things. So we talked about quite a few things already. We talked about understanding the difference between therapy and coaching. Keeping therapy clients, therapy clients, coaching clients, coaching clients, not switching the two. We talked about having everything separate. So separate business entity. So for example, if you have your private practice llc, you would have separate llc. Or you can make it easy like you said, and just have a sole proprietorship. I get this question a lot. Could you have just a DBA off of your private practice?

I get that one a lot too. So here's what a dba. I know you know this. Here's what a DBA is, right? A DBA just stands for doing business as it's also called a fictitious business name. You can call It a few different things. Right. But what that really is is you're saying this is my LLC name, and I'm gonna do business under another name, but it's still part of the same llc, right? So if I was coach legally, which is my llc, right. And I wanted to do business as whatever. Christy Westerfeld, Kristi Westfeld would be my dba.

Right.

But I'm not creating a separate business entity. It's just an. It's an aka, right? It's another name for the original business entity. So I. I get this email a lot, and that people say, hey, I just want to create a DBA from my private practice. Like, it's separate, right? It's not. Right. It's a different name. Um, but when you look at the paperwork, when you're looking, you know, at your actual business structure, you still only have one business entity that you then have this little arm of. It's a dba. But it's still like your contracts would be the original llc, Right. If you entered into a contract, you always want to use your business entity as the responsible party. Right. So all of your coaching contracts would then still have the private practice entity in them. Right. You could say dba, but it's still that original thing. So if your goal is to separate the two, a DBA does not do that. And I know it's easier, right? It's cheaper, it's easier, and I get the appeal. Right? They're like, well, but I'm calling myself Carly's Coaching instead of Carly's Therapy. Right? Like, yes, I understand that. And that does help the confusion with clients. Right. But legally, your. All of your coaching contracts would still say Carly's Therapy llc, because that's the only business entity you have, and that's. You need to enter into a contract with your business entity if you want to avoid personal liability, which we all do. So you're not really separating at that point. So that's where I like to sort of take people when they're like, oh, I just do a dba. No big deal. You still then are entering into all of your coaching contracts with your private practice entity, which is not where we want to be. Right. So I always say no.

Yeah.

Which I feel sad about because I know people want that solution. But if we're going to do it right, we really need to either do be a sole proprietor. Right. And then you would just be the sole proprietor standing alone in your coaching business, or you create a whole new business entity, and either is fine. Right. Like, there's Sometimes I feel like sole proprietorship has this bad rep because people are like, well, but I'm not avoiding personal liability. That's fine. Right? That's true. But you can always mitigate that risk, right? You can have insurance, you have great contracts and really that only comes into play when you're sued and there's a judgment against you. It would pull in your personal assets. Right. So we can do things to, to prevent that. Right. We can have a well drafted contract. We can have liability insurance, not your.

Malpractice, which we recommend anyways, regardless, is having those things in place.

So sometimes I think people don't think through. Okay, well, if I am a sole proprietor, it's true. It's not a personal liability shield. Right? That's not. I, I'm not trying to say it's not true. It is. But think about from a logical standpoint, like what that actually looks like and have I mitigated that risk enough that it's okay to do that short term while you build your coaching business and then later create the LLC when it's not so much of a financial burden or it feels overwhelming? Right. You can always do it later.

I get this one a lot too. With. Well, I talked to my CPA and my CPA says that I should just do it all under one.

I love those. My CPA says, yeah, I think you.

And I have had this conversation. It's like, well, your CPA is trying to make it easier for themselves.

We have, yeah. Everybody's always going to do what's more convenient for them, right? Does my bookkeeper love that I have two separate businesses? Probably not. I mean, I pay her twice, so like, probably fine. It's two clients, right? Same with my cpa. Does it suck that I have to pay them double? Yes. But is it worth it to me to keep my two businesses separate? Because I'm my law firm and I have my template business, right? Those are separate. I cannot give the appearance that I'm practicing with law outside of state lines. Right. I think that's also another reason, like going back to why this is so interesting and relevant to me, because I do it. I was thinking, right, Like I have my law firm, Westerfeld Law, I practice in California. Then I have Coach legally, my template business, two separate things. Two separate. I don't mix them ever. Right. Because I don't ever want to give the appearance that I'm practicing law outside of California. So I do I walk the walk that all of you are doing as well, Right. I have Two businesses with two sets of bookkeeping books. I pay the CPA twice. I file taxes with both.

Like, and when you're in flow, it's not that hard. It's so worth the peace of mind.

The times that it's a headache. Happens like three times a year, maybe once a year when I do taxes, I'm like, hmm, this is upsetting. I have to pay twice. But, like, it's so worth it to me to keep them separate. Right. I would pay whatever it takes to be very clear that I have am keeping them completely separate. I am a million percent ethical because as you guys all experience as well, right? Like going to law school, passing the bar, getting my license. That's important to me. I don't want to do anything that's going to make someone think I'm being unethical or I'm practicing outside of state lines. Like, that's the most important thing to me. And I know all of you listening feel that way as well. Right. So is there an administrative headache when you're setting up two businesses for maybe a couple hours? Absolutely. Right. Like, because you're having to do things for twice, and you're getting your bookkeeper set up with two different businesses, you're trying to do all that, but once it's set up, like, it's not even a thought. Right. Like, you have two separate businesses, you have two streams of revenue. They're very different. There's never a question about, like, which business is this for, Right. Is it my private practice? Is it my coaching? Very easy, very clean. Right. Two bank accounts, two bookkeeping QuickBooks accounts or whatever you're using, right? Like, it's very simple to keep it separate. And I think sometimes people get a little lost in that moment because it feels like a hurdle, but the hurdle's not as high as you think.

Exactly.

Right.

It's.

You have to just start climbing. And it's not as. It's not as hard as you think. You get over it pretty quickly, and then you're like, oh, I did it. You know, and then. And then onward we go. And it doesn't have to be this big thing of like, well, I don't want to create another business. I don't want to do this, that and the other. Like, it makes it easier. And I think for the cpa, that suggests you not do it. I think that's one of those moments, and I don't mean any negativity towards CPAs. Right? That's one of those moments where, you know, law is not their Specialty. Right, right. Legal. Legal elements are not their specialty. You don't want me as your cpa. That's not my specialty. Right. Like, I wouldn't know. Thank you. I'm not going to do anyone's tax as well, but I can tell you exactly what you need to do legally to make these businesses ethical. And I think that's why it's great to have a lawyer and a cpa. Right. Or a bookkeeper and a lawyer. Right. Because they're going to have different specialties. They're going to have different values in terms of the value to your company. I would probably give tax advice. That would not be the best. Right. Because I. That's not my area of expertise. Just like a CPA telling you it's way easier. Just do this all together. Yeah, of course it is.

Yeah.

But does that mean it's the ethical thing to do? Absolutely not.

Right.

And you can tell them, thank you so much. I really value your expertise in the tax field. However, it is important to me to keep it separate. I had to tell my CPA that because he was like, well, hold on. Why do you want to create two? And I was like. Because I explained it. And then he was like, oh, I get it. Makes perfect sense. Like, yes, keep them separate. Right. Like, there's just a little bit of education in that piece. Just like a CPA would have to educate me on the tax stuff. Right. Like, I'm not saying they don't know what they're doing. It's just in this very specific hyper niche of being a therapist and a coach. Right. Sometimes you're going to need to tell people, this is the way I want to do it. Right. I know it creates two files for you, but treat me like two clients.

Yeah.

Right. It has to be two files.

Yeah.

And once you say that, they're like, I get it. Okay, great. Sounds good.

Let's talk about. Do you have to hide your credentials for a minute?

Good one.

Can you still advertise that you're an LCSW when you're a coach? You were talking about how we worked hard for our license. Right. And that's what made me think of this is like, yes, we worked hard for our license and the coaching field is saturated. And this is a one up for us where we have a clinical background and knowledge. So how does anyone who's listening go about this?

Yeah, I love this question, and I'm gonna be very candid here. Are therapists more qualified to be coaches? Personally, I think yes. Right. I think therapists are Very qualified to be coaches. So I very much understand the appeal of. Can I talk about that? Right. Like, am I more qualified to sell legal templates as a lawyer? Right. Yes. No one is going to say that's false. Right. The part that we want to be clear about, and this is a little bit of getting into the weeds, but there's a reason you don't want to market your credentials as the reason somebody should hire you as their coach. You're not saying, hire me as a coach because I'm a therapist. Right. Now, from a practical standpoint, is that valuable? Is it valuable that you're a therapist? Yeah, absolutely. Right. So that's why it's a little bit like, well, wait a minute, I get the sort of oddity of it, the irony of it. Right. But from an ethical standpoint, we don't want any of the marketing material to come across as saying, hire me as a coach because I'm a therapist. And that's where you want to avoid it. Now, I, you don't have to avoid, you don't have to lie. You don't have to say, I'm not a therapist. Right, right. You don't have to take any drastic measures to like convince people you're not.

A therapist or take it out of your signature or your, you know, it can be part of your bio. What I'm hearing you say is you.

Can have the letters. Yeah.

Leading with service population problem solution outcomes that you're providing, but then maybe when they're going to do their due diligence, as one usually does, when they're about to hire and they're like, well, what are her values, what are her beliefs, what is her background, etc, then they would see those things.

Yeah. It's not, you don't have to hide it. I oftentimes, and you know this, Carly, but oftentimes I suggest to people, instead of saying, you know, that you have 10 years of experience as a therapist, you can say you have 10 years of experience working with people in XYZ field. Right. If you're a therapist that specializes in anxiety. Right. You can say as a mental health professional with 10 years of experience in, you know, this field or, you know, as a, an expert with this many years of experience in this, you know, working with people with anxiety. Right. You don't have to hide your experience. Right. Because that's what makes you qualified in a sense. Right. And again, I get the irony here. Yeah. Because I'm telling you, don't do what is valuable. Like, I get that it's sort of like a confusing thing. But the ethical element is that you don't want to use your license to sell your coaching.

Right.

That's where we need to differentiate ourselves and not say, because I'm a therapist, I would be a great coach. Is it true? Yes. But we can't lead with material like that. We need to just market ourselves as a coach with experience, working with people with anxiety or whatever your specialty is. Right. You can let people know about your experience without saying it in such a black and white way that would cause them to hire you because you're a therapist. Because that again, then we're. We're sort of intertwining the two and we're selling our coaching based on our license, which is what we don't want to do.

And then maybe they're confused. Right. Well, do I do their therapy or do I do their coaching? They offer both.

Right.

We don't want to confuse our clients.

Exactly. Or they're going to think, oh, sweet, she's a therapist. I'm going to get a two for one here. Right. I'm going to hire her as a coach, but she's also going to give me therapy treatment. So I'm going to get coaching and. And therapy for the price of coaching. Again, it's all about educating your audience. Right. You need to come to the table as the leader of your world. Right. What are you offering? You're offering therapy very clearly to these people over here. You're offering coaching very clearly to these people over here. And you don't get pushed around by people that come into your space and think, well, I want both, or I'm going to choose what I want. Right. You have to stand your ground as these are my offerings. This one's not for you. Or, you know, based on my assessment, I think you go here. I'm not going to sell you a coaching package. And that's hard sometimes. Right. You're turning down a client, you're turning down money. I get that. It's kind of like going back to when somebody is outside of your state, can you sell them a coaching package even if you think they need therapy? Right. And that's on you ethically to not do that. Right. Because it's not. It's not the right thing for that person in that scenario.

And it goes back to you.

You have to stand your ground behind your services and not let people decide what they want in the sense that, you know, it's going to ethically cause a problem for you.

Yeah. And I think that People will get confused. Even if you're taking all of the steps to be super crystal clear. And if you're a clinician listening, know that when you get somebody on a consult call prior to them actually signing up for services, which usually happens whether you're doing coaching or therapy, that's going to be your time to clear up any confusion if this is overwhelming you and you want to make sure that you're not breaking any rules or not confusing any clients to have the peace of mind that you will have that opportunity if somebody was confused, to clear it up. Let's talk about paperwork for a second coaching contract, because this is one of the most important things I would say that therapists need to have when they're adding coaching, because we are still held to our ethics. Yes.

So two things here. Number one, your intake paperwork as a therapist and your coaching paperwork are not the same. They cannot be the same. You cannot kill two birds with one stone. In this instance, I get that a lot, too, where people say, well, can I just use my intake paperwork? And it is a capital bold, no giant font, never. I know you want to. I know it makes it easier. I know you want to just upload one thing and have it work across the board. I feel you want. But it's not going to work in this scenario. And. And that needs to be okay. Your coaching documents need to be very clearly written and very clearly outline, right. That you are not providing therapy. They need to have all of the intentional language in them around the differences between coaching and therapy. The fact that while you are a therapist, the coaching services are not therapy, do not provide therapy, are not a substitute for therapy. Right? Things like you reserve the right to terminate the coaching relationship if at any point in time you decide they need or you realize that they need therapy. Right. Like, the paperwork here is really important not only to protect yourself, but for the client to also understand. Right? So there's various checkpoints in this relationship. Like Carly was saying right on the phone with them or however you're talking to them, the paperwork is another way to provide that clarity to the client, to make sure they're truly understanding what the relationship is and is not. Right? So I would encourage you, if you're coaching with somebody, right, when you sign them up to a coaching package, you send them the paperwork and then you allow them to go through it, ask you questions, maybe you take the initiative and say, hey, I really want to direct you to just this part where, you know, everyone is very clear that, yes, I'm a therapist. This is not therapy. Right. I'm providing with coaching accountability, education support, guidance. Right. There's no treatment element here. We're not doing any of that. Making sure that they're really understanding the differences between the two. And then after they review the contract is when they sign it and then they pay your invoice. Right. The contract has to be the offer. Right. It has to give them the opportunity to understand what's going on.

Mandated reporting, informed consent. Right. That needs to be on there as well.

Yeah. So the other things within the coaching document, right, they're going to have the same ethical obligations as some of your intake paperwork. And I know the question is coming, well, can I just repurpose my intake? Still no. Still no. Still separate. But you are going to have some of the pieces because as Carly's touching on, right. Your ethical obligations follow you as a coach. And I know that's confusing, Right. But it just means that within your coaching contract, you need to have some elements of informed consent, mandated reporting, things like that that are part of your private practice that has been deemed, you know, necessary to be in coaching paperwork because that follows you ethically. So it's just something to keep in mind. You need to understand it. But then it also just needs to be in your contract and that you review it with your potential coaching client. Right. So I think the walk away of this is it's important to separate the businesses, it's important to separate the websites or if you want just one website, like, make it very clear that the services are separate and, and somebody can't accidentally divert into the course when they're wanting private practice services. Right. And then I really want to land the point of the importance of the coaching contract and the paperwork there because that is where all of the, all of your liabilities are limited, all of your disclaimers are there, all of your, you know, mandated reporting, all of your ethical obligations are being satisfied. Like that is the piece that you need to get, right? So separate business, separate website, or very clear differentiation of services. And your coaching contract has to be done well and correct. When you have those three things, you're well on your way to operating an ethical private practice and coaching business. Right. You're clear on the separation of services. And then, you know, we can talk about more of the details around marketing and things like that. But those are really the, the three key points, right? The separation and then making sure that your coaching contract is well drafted. It's not just a different version of your intake paperwork. It's clear, it's well written. It's written by an attorney that knows this space and that we have, we have covered all of our basis in the contract so that everyone is clear on what the services are and are not. I love it.

It's such a good recap and I'm sure we could continue this conversation for forever and ever. So for anyone who's listening, just let this be a glimpse into, on a high level, overarching things that you need to do to protect your license. More importantly, letting you know that this is possible for you. If you listen to this episode and you're even more overwhelmed, just know that people like Christy and I exist to help you actually take the action steps. We're just giving you the education right now. We're giving you a glimpse of what it is. But as far as actually taking the steps, getting your actual paperwork, knowing what insurance you actually need, being that sounding board to answer your questions, we're here to support you. So thank you so much. Christie. Where can everyone find you?

Yeah, so all of my documents, I have legal templates for everything we talked about. That's all@coachlegally.com I have a specific bundle of templates for therapists who want to offer coaching. So it includes all the documents you need to offer coaching as a therapist. I also have documents for private practice, website documents, things like that, that you may need there. So all of that is on coachlegally.com.

I'll link it in the show notes. Yeah, I have the link.

Perfect. So it'll be linked below. If you want to follow me on Instagram, it's at Coach Legally. And those are really the two main pieces or main places to find me. Coach Legally, for the templates, for the free resources, for the info, more education on this and then at Coachlegally on Instagram.

Amazing. Well, thank you so much.

Of course. Thank you for having me.

Yeah, I'm sure we will talk so soon.

Awesome. Sounds good.

Thank you so much for listening to the thriving therapy podcast. I hope that this episode has inspired you to reduce burnout, work smarter, and see the freedom potential you have as a therapist. We would love to have you inside the therapy Therapist to Coach Accelerator Facebook group where we have live trainings and cheat sheets on all things marketing, sales and adding coaching ethically and legally. I am here cheering you on and I'll see you around.