165 - Courage to Leap & Lead with with Hortense le Gentil - part 2

You've got courage to leap, courage to lead.

Be brave and be bold.

Whoa, let it roar. Welcome to the Courage to Leap and Lead podcast, where each of our guests share the stories of courage that helped them become powerful leaders. Before we start today's show, please remember to visit courage-consulting.com. Where you can find all the episodes and other excellent resources, all at courage-consulting.com. Now, here's your host, Leadership Courage Coach CB Bowman.

So, okay, my other question is when you talked about The unlocked leader in your book here, um, just in case anybody didn't see it.

Oh, thank you.

We talk about leading with empathy. Now, since we've experienced here in the United States the 5 pandemics Yeah. Social justice, COVID, finance, social— I mean, I said social, economic, etc. Leaders are being told to be more real. To celebrate their employees, to have more empathy, to do this, to do that. At the same time, many laws prevent us from doing that. Right?

Mm-hmm.

So, for example, if an employee is out sick and you— for a long time and you want to know how they're feeling, you can't ask that question. Right? We've, we've come to a point here in our culture where the leader has to be strong, show no pain, no concern other than for the bottom line. And now people like yourself have written that they have to be empathetic.

Yeah.

They have to feel for their employees. They have to be able to step in the shoes of their employees.

Mm-hmm.

Leaders are afraid to do that because they are— been educated that that's not the correct way to lead. A couple of questions: how do they then Come to this new state of being, of having empathy. Are they afraid they're going to lose their ability to be seen as a leader? How can they unlock and still remain successful in the eyes of the board and of People that work for them. What's the secret sauce here, Hortense? How do they do that?

I'm glad you asked. So first—

Without telling the whole story, because we want people to buy the book.

Thank you. Yeah. So, okay, without telling the whole story, as you say, but okay, first, if I go back to A lot have been said about why leaders should lead with empathy, right? A lot have been said about the why, but how to do it, very little.

Yes.

And so this is a process that I know that works because it works with my clients and myself and others. And so if we go back to that, in order You're right. Expectation has changed. So now your employees, your customers, everyone, they want to connect with you. They don't need another hero, like Tina Turner said. We don't need another hero.

No, we don't need another hero.

She was right. We need a human leader. We need to connect. And if as a leader, you succeed to connect with people, to be this human people, this is what we talk about, we are talking about, everything change. Because anyway, the old model doesn't work anymore and you unleash people, you unleash the human beings, your teams, you unleash everybody in your environment if you do that, because they want to connect with you. If I know who you are, CB, if I can feel you, if I can feel, oh, okay, you are not this, sounds like perfect person, you have all the answers. If you care about me, I'm going to care about you. And this is how you connect with people. This is this empathy thing. So he's being human. And yes, you need a lot of courage to do it as a leader because you have to challenge everything. Everything you've been, you have to unlearn what you learned, like Yoda said, right, in Star Wars. Unlearn what you learn. But this is true. And this is true, but this is, and this is very powerful. The first Things that they are, of course, is to face your fears because you're afraid of failure or failing. You're afraid of sharing your emotions or facing the emotion of others. Like when clients, when they told me, emotions don't believe to the corporate arena.

I cannot fix that.

And I said, yes, it's not about fixing, but you're right. But now it belongs to the arena. So you cannot— we have mental health, we have a lot of people, and people, this is what they're waiting for you. And you cannot have all the answers, by the way, because see the crazy world we are living in? Every minute, every day, we have something new. We cannot. We cannot. That's not possible. So to go back to how you do that is, yeah, the first step is facing your fears. And the second step, we talk a little about 5 minutes ago, but it's about your trap. Where are you trapped? So where are you trapped? Where are you?

Where?

So what do we mean by trap? It's this feeling of, this is this feeling of you unhappy, you try again and again, it doesn't work, you cannot move forward, and you feel like you don't understand why, because you used to be successful that way and it doesn't work anymore. And so this is this feeling. So you can be arrogant also, or you can feel in the contrast the imposter syndrome. So all then there are clues that maybe you are locked somewhere.

I'm smiling because you remind me of my pickleball coach because I was whining because my serve just went from great to zero, right? And I said, I don't understand what happened. Oh, I'm so good at doing the serve. And then all of a sudden I keep missing my serves. It's going in the kitchen, it's going outside. And she said, CB, try serving differently. And I said, try serving differently? But I've mastered the serve. She says, no, you haven't mastered it if you're making mistakes. So try something different. Just relax. And once you try something different, it's okay if it doesn't work. But now you relax, you can go back to your original serve. And I said, oh, you're crazy. But I did what she said, and it worked.

See? It works, right?

That fear that I had because I kept missing it was just drowning me. And so I tried something different.

Exactly. This is really, you know, this is really the notion of being, being locked somewhere. And it's Yeah, it's exactly that. And so because they are not— why are we locked? It's about, we talk about that a little before, but it's often where it's coming from. It could come from trauma or it could do that, that are not processed well. We have been through and are not processed well, or there could be voices. Voices that external voices, of course, around you.

You're not doing it well. What's going on? And then you just get worse and worse.

Yes, exactly. So let me share an example if you want.

Yes, please.

I had years ago, one leader was considered to be the next CEO of the company. In order to do that, he had to be in front of a bunch of interviews, fan leaders to interview him. And he completely freaked out. He completely, he talked, he became very, very talkative. I didn't stop. He didn't hear. It was absolutely not him. His behavior changed completely. So of course he lost it. He didn't get the job because this is not what they were looking for. Of course, everybody was very surprised. So we had this conversation together and he told me, I don't know where it's coming from. What happened to me? He said, I don't know. And revisiting his life, he remembered that 30 years before, 30 years before, he was a student. He had to take an oral exam in front of, of, uh, of, uh, you know, teachers.

A panel.

A panel. Yeah, panel. I was looking for the word. Thank you. A panel, uh, a panel of, of teachers.

Yes.

And one of the teachers didn't let him talk. He cut him off. all the time. So he didn't have time to express himself. He felt he lost his cool. He was shocked. And this teacher told him at the end, young guy, I can promise you something. You will never be a CEO.

Ah.

Because you cannot handle your emotions. So this little young guy, he passed the exam anyway and everything went very well for him and he forgot this event, right? Until the time he was in front of the panel of the interviewers and without absolutely not being aware of it, in fact, he compensated because he remembered Somewhere the trauma was still there and he remembered that, okay, I have to talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk because they're going to cut me off. And it was amazing because in that case you had a trauma because he was shocked, was not supposed to not be able, he prepared himself for hours, as you can imagine. And also there were another voice. the voice of his teacher who did like a commandment or something like that. And it became a commandment. It became true. So he understood where it was coming from. So now we understand. What should we do?

The chain was broken now.

So now we, yeah, Now we understand. So from there, so we move to, so now what should we do with that, right? How do you transform yourself? How do you free yourself? We challenged the belief, the voices and the trauma, and you challenge the voices and said, okay, is it true that you cannot be a CEO? Said, is it relevant? Is it helpful today? And he told me, no, no, no. I said, okay, so let go.

Free yourself.

Free yourself. And we worked on freeing yourself and let go. And it changed absolutely everything because So he was locked here without knowing. Now that he was aware of it, he could free himself. He could rewrite his own story because it's all about stories. Because this is a story that your brain is telling.

Yes.

It's making for you. It's a story. You're not going to be a CEO. So you live like that for years and you are absolutely not aware of it. And one day, wow, it just happened. Sorry. And one day just happened and gosh, it doesn't help you. And so, and he began, so challenging those voices, he rewrite his own story. We work on what is important for you, what drives you, and how you want to show up, by the way, as a leader and as a next CEO of another company. And he freed himself completely. And this is how you free yourself and you become this human leader because he had a lot of empathy, but he was afraid to show empathy and humanity because of this prediction somewhere and this trauma.

Yeah. Hortense, can you Unlock your own trauma by yourself?

When you get used, yes. So that's why I wrote the book, because it's to help people to free up.

Funny. Oh, you have a book about that? Hmm. Let me just see here. Okay. All right.

Sorry, we don't have to talk about it. But yeah, you can do, of course. And it's easiest with someone. But yes, you can unlock because CCB, in fact, we have big lock and smaller one. But in a day, you can be locked somewhere if you're aware of it, if you know what it is, if you recognize the symptoms.

you can say, oh, why am I acting like that? This is not me.

Right? And so if you're used to it, you say, okay, where is it coming from? Sometimes you don't know. Well, you take a little more time to think about it, but you will know. We always know. If it's not exactly, we have an idea. And this trauma thing also is very important because we think that trauma should be Something like a war, a war, something very difficult. Of course, of course, of course, this is a trauma. But also, this is how in fact your emotions reacted to an event. Because what is a trauma? Trauma is an event or a series of events that trigger your emotions. Very hard. So fears, shame, guilt, and trigger your sense of safety. So that could be something that happened to, for example, I'm sure that this teacher did exactly the same thing with the following students because it looks like maybe it was his behavior, his way to challenge the students. But maybe the next one he didn't even remember because he didn't care. But in this case of this other leader, yes, he cared. He cared about it. So he was shocked. And so I like this metaphor of thinking that, okay, your brain is a house. In your house, you have your rooms, right? So you have your bedroom, your living room, your kitchen. So you put your bed in your bedroom, And you put your sofa in the living room now and your fridge in the kitchen. Usually this is what we do. But now imagine that you have a car in the middle of the living room.

Yes.

It's not the right place. So you're here and imagine you want to watch TV and the TV You cannot. Imagine that you have friends, you want to sit on the other sofa. You cannot connect with them. And that's the problem. The problem is trauma is something that is not at the right place. So until you put back the car in the garage, you cannot have the big picture. You cannot connect correctly with yourself. you cannot connect correctly with others. And this is a mind trap because the mind trap is that, is you cannot connect with yourself and you cannot correctly, I mean correctly, it affects the way you connect with yourself and others. It doesn't mean that you don't connect, but affects is better. It affects the way you connect with people. And leadership is all about connecting. If we go back to leadership. So our job is to put back the car in the garage. And sometimes you may need help, of course. And it's all because it's a journey, it's not a destination. It's not one day you pop up and after it's finished. Absolutely not. For myself, for example, I continue to work on it every mostly every day because I have a routine every day. I think, you know, I work on it and with another person, you know, with, uh, I work with for a long time. And, uh, yeah, to unlock myself when I feel locked or where I'm afraid of something or where I'm afraid to fail or I'm afraid to talk with you, for example, because, oh, my English is not that good. So what should I do?

Exactly. Which is perfect. But, uh, you just said something that I don't want to skip over here.

Okay.

You said you work with somebody else. What are you talking about?

Of course, because, you know, myself also, it's a journey. So it's not finished. It's not because I wrote a book that, you know, or I have my age that it's over. Not at all. That would be over when I will die. And so I want to learn. I want to evolve. I want to continue to be better. And so I still have work to do and I work with a coach who is also a psychologist and I work with her for a very long time and she teach me a lot about neuroscience and everything. So that's why you will find a lot of neuroscience in my book. And yeah, and I think all of us, which I recommend, and all of us, we should, whatever the age, We should have somebody with who you can continue to learn, to grow, and to share. It's your safe place to grow.

So I find this fascinating, and thank you for sharing, because I feel like so many people are, and this includes me, afraid to hear You know, well, you're wrong here, or you could have done better, or you could have done differently. And, you know, I, I don't know, talk about triggers, if it's a trigger back from childhood or what, but the fact that you had courage, you have the courage to work with somebody every day, that is just— it's worth gold. for us to hear that. And so I want to ask you first, how did you get to the point where you were brave enough to, to find somebody? What triggered you to, to do that in the first place?

Yeah, it's, it's a journey. Um, so I have to go back to my story. But, um, yeah, so it was years ago in Paris. I was, yeah, 15 years ago or something like that. I was in Paris and I felt completely locked. I felt completely unhappy, unhappy in my personal life, unhappy in my professional life. And I felt like I could not move forward. I didn't know what to do. I didn't fit where I was. So something was wrong. But it was hard. I didn't know what to do. So at that time, everything went south and I felt locked in bed for months, sick in bed for months. So I really had to do something, right? I will understand later, it's because I was not courageous enough to listen to my own voice and I was always listening to other voices. No, you cannot be an entrepreneur at the age of 40. No, you cannot divorce. No, you cannot do that. You cannot do that. So I was sick there and I needed— I looked for help because I didn't know what to do.

How did you have the courage to— wait, wait, wait, wait, this is fascinating. Thank you so much. How did you have the courage to say, I'm going to look for help?

Because when you are locked, I wanted to continue to live my life and I knew that, you know, a part of me knew that I should do that, knew the path, but a part of me was, I cannot do that. I cannot do that because 1,000 reasons. But at one point I just wanted to, okay, who is going to help me to think correctly? So I looked for someone and it took me a little time to— no, in fact, I met 2 or 3 different persons and everything, and everybody helped me at the right time because I believe that, by the way, it's always like that. If you're waiting, if you want help, If really you want, you are honest, you will find. And the right person for you at that moment is going to arrive. Maybe they will not be the right person for the next move, but this is the right person. So it's exactly what happened to me. And I learned here and it helped me to work on my fears, in fact, what I was afraid of. And so it took me a while. It took me 1 year or 2 years or 3 years, I don't remember. But the wine, and after that, I just thought that it was so interesting that I met Maud that I talk about in the book or so. And she was, you know, her story is amazing, absolutely amazing. And she is a psychologist and neuroscience, and she learned, she learned. It was like we were sisters. So she she just wanted to learn, to learn more and more and more. She's very bright and she's very smart. I told her, teach me, teach me, and please continue to help me. And this is what we did, and I learned so much. So I don't talk to her every day. What I do every day is my daily routine, that's for sure. But I talk to her very, very often, like Last week, I think I talked to her. And I would, you know, once a month, twice a month or whatever. If I want more, I would talk more. And yeah, and it becomes like, I hope we're going to continue until, I don't know, I die because it's very helpful to find someone who can help you, who can listen, who knows how to listen. And if you want to learn, who will teach you. Or if you are locked somewhere, it will help you to unlock yourself, to give you confidence.

You said that you have a daily routine. Are you willing to share?

Oh yeah, it's very easy. It's— and this is something that I recommend also to everyone and to my clients. Every day I do my yoga. And meditation. And I go back to the questions. I like to say it's a daily rendezvous with yourself. So you have to have your rendezvous to yourself to check up how you are, your body, your emotions. And also, if you decided to work on something, Okay, take five minutes to think about how did I do there? Am I better? For example, listener not not better. I'm better at that. Not better. And it's perfectly okay if you know the answer is I forgot today. But your brain is going to remember because if not, it's like you know first of January you decide you know to be on the diet and the fifteenth of January you forgot. because you don't do it every day. So it's exactly the same with routine and decisions.

I'm keeping it in my head someplace.

Everyone is the same. So yeah, so this is what we are talking about is really this. So we talk about how you unlock yourself. So after how you write your own story, it's What drives you, how you want to show up as a leader, how you want to be remembered. And also that story, you write it down. And in order to achieve this story, for example, if you want to be a better listener, because if you want to increase empathy, you have to listen. It's obvious, but you have to listen. Write down everything. Write down and check every day. How did I do there? Oh, I forgot. Okay, that's okay. Don't blame yourself. Did you do your best? That's all. Did you do your best? Okay. It's just to remind you. Oh yes, I decided to do it. Okay. So that's okay. I forgot today. Tomorrow I will do. Okay. So that's one thing. And also you add your drivers. Why I'm here, by the way, what message I wanted to give, what is my why, your driver and how you want to show up. So this is what I call your daily rendezvous with yourself. It's like a muscle because it's a new muscle. If you don't work on your muscle every day, if you broke your arm or whatever, even if it's not broken, Of course, the muscle is going to be weak, right? This is what we talk about. We are talking about—

I am writing this down. Daily rendezvous. I love this. I love it. I know we're way over time, but I don't care because this is such an amazing conversation. I cannot thank you enough. You know, people who reach your level in life often forget how they got there.

Mm-hmm.

Often forget how important their message is to people who are working to get there.

Mm-hmm.

People who are struggling to get there. And there is a difference. And they take where, where they've gotten to be for granted.

Mm-hmm.

They don't stop to applaud themselves.

Mm-hmm.

For being where they are now and their potential for continuing to develop. So I want to thank you Or tense, because I admire you, and there's not a lot of people I admire at this point in my life.

Oh, CB, I do the same for you.

Thank you. And thank you so much for your integrity, your empathy, and your courage to share The parts of your life that were challenging and what you're doing about it and how you live every day in examining and questioning and celebrating what you've done and what you will do. That just takes an awful lot of guts, pure guts. And you are one gutsy woman. I love it. Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you so much. And audience, I know I'm not supposed to push books, but this is one that links to courage and will help you. It's not just— it says The Unlocked Leader, so immediately you think about this as only a business book, but each one of is a leader, if only in leading our own lives. So please do me a favor. Get it, read it, absorb it. This is CB. Thank you so much. And I'm going to see you guys next week. Have a successful, unlocked week. And thank you. Thank you so much, Hortense, for teaching us how.

Thank you so much, CB, for having me. You're amazing.

Thank you.