204- Courage to Leap & Lead with Dave Sanderson

You've got courage to leap, courage to lead. Be brave and be bold. Whoa, let it roar. Welcome to the Courage to Leap and Lead podcast, where each of our guests share the stories of courage that helped them become powerful leaders. Before we start today's show, please remember to visit courage-consulting.com. Where you can find all the episodes and other excellent resources, all at courage-consulting.com. Now here's your host, Leadership Courage Coach CB Bowman.

Hello everybody. It is Tuesday and it is CB Bowman with Courage to Leap and Lead. And I know I say this every week, So you know what I'm going to say. Today I have a special guest. But listen, this guy is going to rock the chair that you're sitting in.

Hey.

Abe Sanderson is one of the survivors for the airplane on the Hudson, the Hudson landing. If you remember in 2009, There Was a Plane That Landed in the Hudson Instead of Crashing. And I am just so excited. I'll probably make an idiot out of myself during this conversation. But then you know CB is truly excited about this guest. And we're on the same page with so many thoughts around courage. But let me not go on. Let me introduce Dave. Dave, thank you so much for being on this podcast. Thank you.

CB, thank you for having me today. I'm honored to be with you today. Thank you.

You know, we started talking about courage and your books, plural, all lead to the same path as my one book, Courage to Leap and Lead. And we were talking about a particular aspect of courage, which I've coined microcourage. And Dave, coins the gap and the gain, the difference between the gap and the gain. So microcourage is an everyday action that you pause to accomplish. And when you do, you have reached a courage point. So for me today, my courage point was this interview. One, because Dave is an icon. 2, because I'm a little bit under the weather and I thought I'm going to be coughing and sneezing. But you know what, know that if I go like this, it means I might have to go on mute to cough and sneeze and all that kind of stuff. But I wanted to have this interview. For Dave, he explains the, the difference between the gap and the gain. Is the gap is the past, living in the past, which creates turmoil. You've had major successes, for example, in the past, and you expect that everything that you tackle, you can tackle in the same way and have the same kind of success. Ain't gonna happen. And the gain is the future where you take those steps in microcourage and you take a deep breath and you say, I've got this. And you go for it. Dave, tell us some more about your concept.

Well, I, I learned this concept, uh, from my coach, candidly. Is, you know, that's why I really help— I really focus people on, you got to have a mentor, you got to have a coach. That's how you really advance. That's why my second book, From Turmoil to Triumph, I was so honored that Tony Robbins even put on the COVID how he got to be Tony Robbins. He had a mentor. So I learned this from my mentor. And yeah, I You know, and I, I, so many times in my life I've lived in the gap where I thought, you know, I've done this, I've done this, I've done this, right? And I'm, I'm not seeing it. I'm not seeing the wins that I think I deserve. Instead of thinking about, you know what, this is how much I've really accomplished, right? Like you talk about the micro, the things, little things that I've accomplished. It's like, you know what, it gives me the energy to be able to go forward and be able to accomplish, you know, you know what, I've handled it before. It may not have been as smooth or as elegant, right, as I thought that I should be. But, you know, sometimes you just— when you accomplish something, something in your life, you got to step back, say, you know what, that's a win. That is a win. And the more all you do is start stacking wins, because we start talking about— you guys start talking today about what happened during COVID where it was COVID and social justice and police, and then we had the election and things that people got stacked on the wrong side. You can also stack things on the right side. Right? Whereas like, I won this, I did this, I did this. How much more can I accomplish? And that's why what I did a couple weeks ago, and we held a unique event in Modesto, California, where we actually took veterans and first responders through a firewalk experience to show people you have to face your fears, how to do this. If you can accomplish this, how much of a win is this? How many more things can you win in your life? To give them a hard physiological and, and mental and emotional reference on how to do this.

Wait a second. Did you say firewalking? People actually walk on fire?

Yes, we took, we took 2 groups, veterans and first responders, in Modesto, California, over a 2-night period and did 2 firewalks.

Dave, I gotta tell you, I wrote the book on courage, but there's no freaking way I'm going to be doing that. You have got to be kidding. How, how do you not burn your feet? And please don't tell me it's all psychological.

Well, I tell people, you gotta pay attention. There's— there is a strategy. See, one of the things I've learned in my life, CB, is there's a strategy for everything. Everything's got a strategy. You just gotta find the guy or gal who's got the strategy, right?

Okay, I'm buying it.

Find the guy and gal who's got strategy. So, right, you know, if you read my blog this week, which I just posted yesterday, about pressure, I had a veteran who came to me during— before this experience, or After I spoke, before we did the firewalk, he said, you know, he's a veteran. He's a military veteran. He said, you know, I, I'm a little— I don't know about this. Plus, I'm feeling like I got a lot of pressure. I have to walk, right? And I said, you know, so I explained the strategy behind what I shared with him that day is about, you know, you don't have to walk, but if you do walk, you will get across safely. And this is how, how I approach things like pressure, right? And how when people give me pressure. how I approach that. So there's, there's a lot of strategies on how to do it. It's, it's been done for 1,000 years. But we— but a friend of mine, Dave Alvin, and I decided let's do something special, test this out, because there's so many people. As you probably know, having your father in the military, you probably know this. There's average at least a minimum of 22 people commit suicide a day in the military. A minimum. And it's like, it's something to me, it's unsustainable. It's unconscionable. So I've got to do something. My goal is things— I got to do something about it, CB. So one of the ways to help these first responders and, and also military, to show them there are other ways to get through this, there are other ways to get it done, is showing them through this experience. You know what, if you can, if you got— you can walk on fire, just think what else you can do in life. All the gains you've not only had, but how would the future gains you could potentially have.

Okay, Dave, you just threw so much out. And so I'm trying to make mental note everything I want to go back to. One is the comment about suicide. 2 is things that you gained in your past. Are you talking about pre-Hudson landing?

So let me talk about the first one first. So yes, when I did my first Hudson— so 3 years ago, I did my first SEAL swim in the Hudson River, back in the Hudson River where the plane went down. with the Navy SEALs, because what I heard and learned is the suicide rate for military is 22 people— military people, they commit suicide.

Mhm.

That's just, that's just reported. That doesn't even count the people that are not reported. So I've, I heard that number, I'm like, are you serious? They are our national heroes. What they're going through is because they, they don't know how to transition and adjust. They don't— they've had so much certainty over here in the military, they know what to do. And they get out.

And now it's like, so, so we're talking about really, uh, ex-military who have just gotten out. Okay, okay, that helps clarify. Okay.

Correct. Veterans who just transitioned out, who've fallen on hard times, right? And really became more evident, Stevie, during COVID when, you know, they're out and now you got COVID, you have no connection, right? You can't go out. You had jobs were limited, right? And a lot of them weren't at that point in time were getting their military pensions because they weren't of age. So many of them were lost. They were lost. So this, that's what triggered me to do what I did going back into Hudson, not only doing that, but also showing my kids and my other people, how do you face your fears? How do you go down in a plane situation in the river and you survive?

Hold on, hold on, Dave. Um, I want to get clarification. You said they were too young to get their military pension. Why did they transition out?

So I give you an example. One of my— the lady who was my lady, who was my wingman in the Hudson River, like, retired captain in the Navy. She's got out 25 years. She's still got a few years before she gets her full pension.

Oh, okay. All right. I—

the gentleman I was referencing—

Why did he leave? Why did she leave? Before she's—

she retired, she wanted to do something different. So after 25 years, she retired.

Okay, okay.

And the gentleman who I was talking about in this blog last week, he retired after 4 years. He got out after 4 years. So, and so he was— he's transitioned out, and now he's in the real world, right? So, so yeah, it's, uh, it's a— it's become a passion of mine. That's why when I saw it, saw the background, I was so enamored by your father's hat, because I know how— what these, these folks go through right now, now that I've been around, especially Special Operations and the Honor Foundation. So, so yeah, that's, that's that side of the fence.

So I want to ask you a question. And I know this is a naive question. So forgive me. Why are they transitioning out without being prepared For the transition when they know they're not going to get their pension? Why are they doing this?

I think a lot of them have— they all have different reasons. And that's why I think you and I discussed the Honor Foundation, how the Honor Foundation really came about, right? Is it to help train these people when they get out how to adjust and transition to a different environment? So I think a lot of them, like Suzanne, had 25 years in. She was in the military Went to the United States Naval Academy, 25 years in. She just wanted to do something different. This gentleman said he just didn't believe in what was going on with the military. I was with us, right? He had a different, different reason, right? And I think everybody's got a different reason for when they get out. But I think a lot of them are still having these, these, these, these challenges. I mean, I'm talking to a young lady who was a Marine, who is a drill sergeant, who's just got out, and she's in the same situation. In 20 years. She still got a few years to go, but she wanted to get out and start her own business. Now she's trying to figure this one out, right?

How does she do that?

How does she do that, right? And so, so I think everybody's got a different situation, but that's why I'm so passionate about this subject.

Okay, so, all right, moving. And I'm sorry I interrupted you, but I, I had a curiosity because, um, being a military brat My father stayed in until he got his full pension. I'm thinking there's so many benefits that you have given your life for almost. Why not get everything that's due you? I mean, I know I sound really weird, but looking at it from a military brat, you are definitely due and have earned—

That's right.

Every single benefit you can get. Yeah, and your family has earned it being there with you.

I agree, I agree. I think there's so many, so much things going on in the world right now, and whatever's going on with inside the, the United States military, a lot of people are, are getting out earlier than, um, than probably your father did, say it that way. And my father, I mean, my father was in the Navy. He wasn't a lifer. He was, you know, he was in during the Korean War, and then he got out. Right. So he had a different experience, right? So—

Right, right. Well, yeah, and for my father, it was really the— during his time, it was the only reputable job he could have where he could continue to learn as a Black man, be paid, take care of his family. And that's the path he chose. Was not an easy path by any stretch of the imagination.

Sure.

So, okay. So going back to talk about the things that you did that were successful before the Hudson event, which catapulted you into a different kind of— I don't want to say success— catapulted you into using a different kind of courage. Tell us about your past.

Yeah, I was so— I was very blessed. Um, when I got out of college, now I'll frame it this way. My father, like I mentioned, he grew up in the '30s and '40s. He was, he was involved with the Navy during the Korean War. So he had a mentality. And his mentality was, once you graduate from college, you basically got 30 days to get out of my house. Go find a job.

Yeah, I, I heard. That sounds kind of familiar.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, I mean, so I didn't have a job after 30 days, CB. So he, he found me my first job, right? Because I tell people one of the great things I learned about my father, he was a man of his word. He was a man of his word, right? Yeah. It was a great lesson he taught me too. You gotta live up to your word. And I, my first job was at a place called Howard Johnson. And I, I knew nothing about hotel and restaurants, but I was out, right? But here's, here's a long story short. My first, third stop was here in Charlotte, North Carolina, where I live. And I was— and being this low man on the totem pole, you're— that means you're working second and third shift. You're not working 9 to 5, right? But that turned out to be the biggest blessing in my life because there was a gentleman and his lady, his wife's name's Bonnie, would come in every night. They'd have ice cream and coffee and we'd talk. And this gentleman, uh, Stevie wore a flannel shirt, drove a pickup truck from North Carolina. All right, and so you got preconceived ideas, right? Preconceived ideas until you find out that he, he owned 80 movie theaters and restaurants through the Carolinas through his life.

He owned— say what again?

80 movie theaters and restaurants through the Carolinas. He was— his nickname in Charlotte was the Sam Walton of Charlotte. Where you would never know who he was, but he was a man of means. So my life was changing. And then where— when did I say exactly when it changed? It was December 24th, 1984. This is what I'm giving you, the background, so you understand how I got to this point. Um, when he drove up to the restaurant that day, he said, I want to show you what I got my wife for Christmas. It was a brand new blue Corvette. Now, I'd never seen a Corvette. I was, what, 24 years old? Never seen one, never smelled one, couldn't spell it, but it was the coolest thing I ever saw, man. Right? Cool. He threw me the keys and said, let's take a ride up and down Woodlawn Road. So we went up and down Woodlawn Road here in Charlotte. I came back, gave Bill the keys. I said, man, Bonnie's really going to dig this. He goes, you need one of these. I said, Bill, I'm making $13,000 a year. I can barely afford my rent. He goes, that's your problem. Let me show you what it takes to be successful. So for 13 years, he mentored me.

Oh.

He showed me things that I would never have access to. And one of the things he did for me, and I, I write about this in my, in my book, my second and third book, is he had his kitchen cabinet and they would eat barbecue at a place called Bill Spoons Barbecue. And you see all these, these titans of business in Charlotte with their coat, their ties on, tie stuff down in their shirts with a bib on, eating barbecue. And occasionally he would let me just sit in and listen to these guys talk, and I would just listen, hear these guys talk, what they're talking about, right? So I was always—

what were they talking about? What were they talking about?

They were talking about business, right? Talking about business in Charlotte and everybody. Basically, they were going back and forth, everybody's business, right? And it was amazing to just listen, listen to these people talk. So fast forward to May of 19— '97. He called me to his office. His name was Bill. He called. He said, I want to come, come by my office. I want to talk to you. And he was 77 when we started. Okay, so he was 90 years old at this point in time. He came over. He said, I want to share a couple of things with you. He said, first, I want to let you know I've got lung cancer. Now, Bill smoked unfiltered Camels since the '20s, so it wasn't a shock, but, you know, it's like, okay. He knows he's got lung cancer. This is not good. But then he went over to his desk and he had this big— I don't know if you've ever seen one of these desks. He had these, one of these big roller desks from the early 1900s. I mean, it was huge, beautiful desk with all these drawers. I mean, gorgeous desk. And he came and brought— he said he had these pieces of paper, put them on my lap. He goes, I want to leave this with you. I said, what is it? He goes, these are the handwritten notes I wrote down in 1929 on how I was going to be successful. I want to give this to you. But you gotta promise me one thing. I said, what? He goes, do not let it die with you.

That what?

No, do not let it die with you. And that's why I'm so passionate about mentoring and coaching. He keep— so I promised him this. He passed away in September that year. And what did I do with these notes? I didn't do anything with them. But one of the lessons that came out of this, there's a couple lessons, big, major lessons. Number one, when one mentor passes on, Another one comes into your life. Because in December of that year is when Tony Robbins asked me to be his assistant head of security. And then, then about a year later asked me to be the head of security for him. So for 10 years, Tony was mentoring me and basically giving me distinctions, right? These distinctions. So I tell people, when I, the lead up to January 15th, 2009, I, I was very fortunate to have mentors around me to get, gave me guidance. And understanding and distinctions. So when I had to make decisions, I had, I was, I had a lot of understanding on how to make a decision because, CB, I tell people the 2 things you need in leadership is be able to, you gotta be resourceful and you gotta be able to make a decision. If you do those 2 things, you're gonna be, you'll be a leader that stands out. You'll be a leader because most people cannot make a decision. And most people are not resourceful. So, um, that's what helped me that day. My first book called Moments Matter talks about those moments in my life that I learned these things I had to do that day, that I had to employ. And that's why I tell people, all the moments in your life are there for a reason and a purpose. You may think that you're not there, they just go through life. No, no, no. Things happen for a reason. And there's times in your life that happen specifically to help you sometime in the future. And you can just recognize it. And you gotta recognize it. And so one of the things I talk about is awareness. You gotta stay aware. You have to stay aware because especially in the world these days, I mean, you're not aware, things are changing so quick, you're so far behind. So that's how it led me up to what happened on January 15th. I was very blessed to have mentors. I've got a current mentor and a current coach. Um, because I— because as you know, and you talked about Marshall Goldsmith, everybody needs to have somebody out there to give them that guidance. Tony Robbins has mentors. I mean, you know, I mean, the best of the best have mentors. Why do I think I don't need one?

So, um, I want to ask you a few questions here. One is because you, you just throw out so much that I want to unpeel.

Okay.

Okay, I want to ask you about awareness. I want to ask you about mentors. Okay, um, please show your book. We would talk about awareness. Yeah, can you pull it down and show the camera?

Sure.

Pull all your books down because we'll get to all of them.

These are my top 3.

Okay.

So I actually have a chapter in here about— it's called Moments Matter. This is my first book, 2016, and I talk about, you know, the power of awareness in this book, uh, because, you know, one of that thing about the plane and being on the plane that day, if you aren't aware of what's going on around you— and you gotta remember, a plane's going down in less than 6 minutes, right? And none of us train for this. And I talk about awareness in the book because If I, if I wasn't have my sensory acuity on and looking at everything and understanding and hearing and feeling, smelling, that's what I talk about. You can, your awareness comes in all the different senses. And so you gotta be attuned and see, one of the things I teach and talk about is everybody's got, uses all 5 senses unless they've got an abnormality, right? But there's one sense that everybody, everybody has a different sense they tune into. When stress hits— see, mine, I'm a visual person. When I, when I, when I get into stress, I go visual.

Me too.

My wife though is auditory. My wife, I mean, if you— she's all about ears, right? That's how she— so, but that day you could even smell the burning of the birds, right? You could smell that. So I talk about awareness. You got to be aware of all these different things going on around you when Because things are happening so quickly in this world right now. I mean, look what's happening right now in Columbia, New York, right? This is the campus. There's so many things happening. And if you're not aware of what's going on, you can get, you can not only mentally and emotionally get harmed, but you can physically get harmed. So awareness is one of the, one of the 12 things I talk about in this book because it's one of the skill sets that I learned growing up and having mentors teach me this is, you know, in business, especially in business. There are a lot of mistakes that I made early in business, right? Because I wasn't aware. I thought I was aware, but then you look at— you weren't even close, Dave. You weren't even close because you keep your eyes open, right? You're like, it's happening right here, but you didn't even see it because you're focused on something that's over here. So yeah, I learned that lesson from my mentors. I talked about it. It was a great saving. I mean, just think of the captain, the first officer. They weren't aware. Of all the different things that they had to do in a matter of a couple minutes, different options that they had, and narrow it down in less than 30 seconds. They were down, this is what we're going to do, and make a decision. Make a decision.

How did being able to smell the birds and that awareness help save you?

I knew that something was burning. Now, my initial thought, CB, was something's burning in the cabin. You know, fire in the cabin is not good.

Mm-hmm.

Now, I did see the, the, the engine explode on the left side cuz I was right behind the engine on the left side. So I saw the fire and explode. So I knew that, but my initial thought was, and then I smelled that, I smelled that smell of a something burning. It's like, oh man, if it's burning inside the plane, we, this isn't good. Right. But fortunately it was outside the plane, but with the air coming in, right? Yeah, you can smell it. So, I mean, you heard what was going on, right? You had to listen, right? You had to— I was watching the outside because I saw the skyline of Manhattan and a bridge. So I had all my senses were highly attuned because one of the things I learned in my time is, you know, how to use all my senses and how sometimes when you, you think you're going visual, sometimes you have to really tune in your audio. And that's the one in business. That helped me the most. That's what I kept talking about when I wasn't— like I said, you're not even close. I was looking at things, but I wasn't listening. I wasn't hearing, right?

Right.

I learned how to use each of my senses to become much more aware of the sensory acuity.

Okay. And so then how did that save you?

Well, number one, that helped me be able to make a game plan, which my game plan was aisle up out. So I played sports. And, and so when I played athletics, before you go into a game, you always had a game plan. So as we were going down, when all of this was going on, I said, if I survived the crash, the plane crash going down, I gotta have a game plan because now we're in the water. So that's, that's how I started thinking. It's like, all right, aisle up. I went visual. Like I said, I was a visual person.

Aisle up. Excuse me, what do you mean by aisle up?

Aisle. Get to the aisle, get up the aisle, go out the door. Okay, that was my game plan, and that was a visual game plan, but I auditorily kept telling that in my head. Aisle up, out. Aisle up, out. So, so when I was in my head, I, I was already ready to go. I knew my game plan. I could execute. Because sometimes when things like this happen so quickly, and it happens a lot in life, When things are happening so quickly, you get shocked. You don't know what to do, so you don't do anything. And when you're in a situation like this, you gotta do something. You don't have— no one has time to watch you and take you by the hand and say, okay, let's do this now. You gotta take action. You gotta go. You gotta go. That's what I love about first responders and military, because they're the ones— they know you gotta go. You can't stay around waiting for someone to tell you what to do.

Mm-hmm. Okay. So, all right, next. Then what happened next?

So once I got to the aisle, okay, now I'm executing game plan, right? But that's when something happened that changed that day for me, because what happened when I got to the aisle, CB, is I start hearing my mother start talking to me in the back of my head. My mom passed away in 1997, but all I could hear in the back of my head is her telling me when I was a kid If you do the right thing, God will take care of you. You do the right thing, God will take care of you. Which I tell people at that moment in time, I grew up in a small town outside of Cincinnati, Ohio, where everybody knew everybody and everybody took care of everybody. So my concept of doing the right thing was you take care of other people first. That was my, that's my model of the world.

Mm-hmm.

So instead of going out, I went towards the back of the plane to see if anybody needed help. And the back of the plane was about chest level deep with water because it was already submerged underwater. Back of the plane was. People were moving, and that's why I got behind the last person, started making my way out behind the last person. That's how I became the last passenger out of the plane. It's because I heard my mom talk to me. And you know what, um, you know, I think in those moments when you, you get those, I mean, those high-pressure, high-stress moments, that's, you know, I think probably the only higher stress at that moment on that plane was when the captain and first officer had to do what they had to do. I think that was number one. But second, each one of us had that pressure moment. What are you going to do? Now, you could have gone, I could have gone out, but my concept, my worldview was you take care of other people first.

And fortunately, behind the other people and guided them out.

Got behind everybody, got behind the last person and walked out behind the last person. And then I saw light because you got to remember, this is late afternoon New York in the winter, so it's already getting dark.

Yeah, yeah.

Dark in the back of the plane. So when he saw the light on the right side of the plane, like, all right, time to get out of here, right? Time to go. I've done all— I've done all I can do. And then you start to get out and you look out and you look at the wing is filled up and the boat's filled up. There's no room. So that's why I was inside the plane waist deep in 36-degree water for about 7 minutes, because there's nowhere to go. And then you got people yelling at you. Because the boat's— a little lifeboat's floating out into the river because of the current. So I, I, I was holding on the lifeboat because I had leverage in the plane to hold on to the lifeboat so they could get out on the wing, start walking down the wing. And while I was inside plane holding the boat until I felt the plane shift. And what happened, I found out later. I didn't know at that point in time, but I found out later. A tugboat that was backing out for the next boat to come in As he was backing out, he hit the front of the plane and shook the plane. And that's when I felt water going up my back. I'm like, this thing's going down like Titanic. I gotta get out of here. And that's why I made this, you gotta swim. And I talked about that moment in this book. It's like, there's, I mean, thank goodness my mother, father made me learn how to swim. That moment when they, because you never know, you know, when you're, when you're a kid and you learn how to swim, no big deal. Then you gotta swim for your life in 36-degree water, right? Fully clothed and jet fuel in the water. So that's how I got outta the plane. I had to swim until I found, got to the boat, and then they're yelling to climb and I yelled up, I can't. And then the word my mom hated most in life was can't. When you grew up in my house, he used, if you said I can't to my mom, she said, you can do it. You're gonna do it. My mother always made us do what we said we couldn't do. To give us a reference point. It's like, there's not a, you can do anything. So I grew up in a worldview again that I can do anything, right? If I have, if I have my mind to it, right? So I got one arm up, the other arm up, and 2 people grabbed me. That's how I got outta the river. Someone, yeah, 2 men who grabbed me and pulled me cuz I couldn't climb. I did. I, I just, I didn't have enough energy cuz I've been in the water, 36-degree water now for over 7 minutes.

Wow.

Right. So fortunately, there's 2 men who had, had the courage and the strength to pull me up because I was dead weight. I'm waterlogged. I'm not a, not a small guy. And so that's how I got out. So yeah, it was. So we talk about, I think, all about all these things I talk about in this book about these skill sets that I had. I learned moments in my life when I learned them. And now it came back to that day, had to be employed for me and hopefully other people that we helped that day survive the plane situation.

You know, I love what you're saying because so many of us, including me, A, we don't realize what we learned when we were children that are helpful. We tend to remember the things that we did not like. Oh, my mom made me eat those damn peas.

Right?

Oh, my mom made me do my homework. Okay, fine, that's good. But look at you now, and where would you have been if, if that didn't happen?

And that's what this book's about right here. This book's about what I learned through this experience. I wrote every word of this book, and when I wrote this book, I got very emotional because I talk about my mentor, right? And that would He taught me, right? But what I realized in these chapters I was writing, CB, is this: my mother taught me the same damn thing. I just didn't listen. And I think that's what happens. I think our parents are so close to us, right, that you need that third person to give you a different perspective. I mean, every one of these things I talk about here, my mother told me the same thing.

Why do we do that? Why do we say hogwash?

I think it's a natural— in fact, I mean, my kids are the same way with me. I, I, I'll, I'll go, and I like it to this. I've said this before, and hopefully it doesn't get me in trouble. I said Jesus wasn't a prophet in Nazareth, right? I mean, Jesus was a little— Joseph and Mary's little boy in Nazareth. He was never a prophet. He had to go out, right, to be a prophet. I said the same thing. Sometimes, you know, your mom and dad are so close, all you think is they're coming at you all the time, right? All you're doing is coming, right?

Right, right.

No, I'm trying to teach you a lesson, but now you got to learn it a different way, you know, the hard way, the hard way.

And all of a sudden it sounds brilliant, right?

Exactly. You're, you're hated at 16, and all of a sudden you're a hero at 22, right? You know, so, so yeah, so I think this is what this book's all about, is say it's really meant for kids to tell them, find that mentor. Find that person because, you know, the same things your mom and dad are teaching you are the same things you're going to learn, right? Maybe in a different way, a harder way, maybe in a way that you could maybe be able to serve somebody at a higher level. So that's what this book's about, is that, that story about how do you turn a challenge into a triumph? And it's because you have somebody who takes enough interest in you, who wants you to win and gives you that insight and those distinctions. Right? Those little things. I mean, we all know the basic lessons, but those distinctions, right, that you learn, that's what this book's about.

Dave, how do you— I think the question is, how do you advise people not to accept what mentors are telling you versus saying to yourself— and this is even if you Identify the mentor. If you, if you say, this is the person I want as your mentor, and your mentor says something to you that obviously is right, and you just, you bristle and you say, I'm not gonna do that. How do you stop yourself from doing that?

I've had, I've had that happen several times, right? It was like, you know, the old man don't know what he's talking about, right? He doesn't understand my situation, right? Then you think back, like, you know what? And I'll give you a perfect example. I'll give you— this is the one I wrote. I wrote this in this book. This is one of the most powerful, one of the most powerful chapters. In 1990, we lost a son.

I'm sorry.

And it was, it was, it was a very tough situation for both my wife and I. And when that happened, my mentor Bill called me over to his office. He knew I wasn't— something wasn't right. Because you know what happened? I was going in business mode. I mean, I never had to do a funeral before. I never had to do all that. So I was just going, okay, you gotta do this, this, this, and this, right? So I was in business mode until, you know, now you're back in the real world. It's like, now you got a wife that's grieving and you got this. So he called me to his office. He said, I want to tell you something. He goes, you know, I had a son. I said, yeah. You know, yeah. He told me a story about his son. He had a son and his son went to Korea. And his son, you know, this is— and he said his wife, his wife and him thought about— this is peacetime, right? Late '40s, peacetime. What's going to happen, right? We just got out of a war. We're not going back to war again. His son, his son gets drafted, goes, goes to the Army. Then he gets called up to Korea and he gets killed. He says, you know what? I could have stopped that. I, I had enough resources that I could have. Stop that. But you know why? He said, everybody's got to serve. And and he he ran his race for God. He said, your son ran his race. Yes, he was young, but he ran his race, right? And it happened for a reason and a purpose, and it will serve you in the future. And it has. We have four more kids, four kids. We you know all of a sudden they they couldn't stop coming, right? Um, but it was a great lesson for me. It's like you know. I'm not the first guy to go through this. And that's the lesson I'm going to answer that question. You got to realize you're not the first guy or gal to go through this. Somebody else in the past has gone through this. And this, this mentor probably has gone through it or seen somebody has gone through what you're going through, right? Maybe I need to step back, check my ego at the door like I talk about on the plane. Check your ego at the door, right? That's what happened on the plane that day. You know, I tell people, I said, when you're going down and you're in a plane that's sinking, I don't care if you're black, white, purple, gay, lesbian, straight, everybody's the same. You got to check your ego at the door. Some other people may have a better skill set than you have. Let them do it and you do what you're good at, right? So I think that's the answer to the question is, you know, your mentor's probably been around the block a few times more than you have. I've seen it. experienced it. Why not just accept it and say, you know what, I will give it a run. If it doesn't work, change, change course. But that's the one that served me greatly because that's the one that happened in 1990. And all of a sudden I realized, you know what, I'm not the first guy to lose a son. God has a different purpose for him than me.

Hmm.

Same thing about why I didn't die that day on the plane. God had a different reason for me not to die that day. On the plane, right? Because the hardest interview I ever had in my life was approximately a month, about 6 weeks after it, when that plane went down in Buffalo. I don't remember that plane that crashed in Buffalo, the Comair. I had a client on that plane and I got called to do an interview in Montreal. And one of the first questions I got on that interview was, why do you think they died on that plane but you didn't die? And I, I was stunned. And all I could come up with, CB, was it just wasn't my time. I'm running a different— God's got me on a different race, right? So, so yeah, the answer to your question is, you know, your mentor's probably got more experience than you have, and sometimes you gotta check your ego at the door and say, you know what, maybe, maybe this person knows more than I know.

You know, I'm glad that you shared that story because, uh, that happened to me. Both stories happened to me. One is when I lost my fiancé, and then I almost died soon after due to a twisted appendix. And I said, okay, he died, I didn't. There's got to be a reason, right? The second story is Marshall Goldsmith. I was in a meeting with him and he said to me, CB, what do you want to be known as? And I said, why is this man asking me this stupid question? And I tell him this story and he just smiles. And I said, Marshall, I want to be known as the CEO of ACEC, the Association of Corporate Executive Coaches. Now, Marshall, when you say something wrong in a meeting, he will go, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, just like that. And you go, oh God, what did I do wrong?

Here it comes.

Yeah, here it comes. And so I got the— and I— and he said, no, CB. He said, you're like me. It doesn't work that way. You have to become known for you, not the association.

That's right.

Association is a byproduct of you. What do you want to be known for? And soon after that, I was asked to give a keynote on courage. And I said to the person, I said, I don't know anything about courage. And she said to me, CB, you're the most courageous person I know. Please write, please give the keynote. That's how this whole book started. And now I'm known as the Courage Guru.

Courage Girl. Courage Girl. Courage Girl. Yep.

Yeah. And so it's interesting that you said Well, you know what? Assume good intentions. Assume that they know more than you. That's why you're in their circle.

That's right.

And truer words were never said.

Yep.

Now, Dave, you spoke about— and I know it's in your book, but for those who haven't read your book, how do you One, increase your awareness, especially in selecting a mentor. No, no, I'm going to make it 2 different questions. How do you increase your awareness? We know where the awareness zones that you talked about, but how do you polish them? And do you only polish them through making mistakes? The next question is about selecting the best mentor for you. How do you go about doing it? Do you just say to somebody, can you be my mentor, which is what I've done, or is there a ritual that you go through in your head? Okay, 2 questions on the table.

So the first one, where— so what I do every day is I, I read every day, and I, and I, and I have my little, my little book over here where I've got my Top 20 in my farm club. This is how I do it. And the top 20 gets called every 2 weeks. The farm club gets called once a month.

What's a farm club?

Farm club is my next 40. My top 20 is those top 20 people I want to earn my circle, that I want in my circle, all right, that I want. I need them. I have my circle. Like my next call coming up in a few minutes, it's one of those top 20 people. He and I talk once, once every week or 2 weeks. The farm club is in my next 40. It's like, you know what, These people are close to me and I want to talk to them, but they may not have as much influence on what I'm trying to do. So number one, I, you know, I listen to a book every day, so I work on my mind. But second, I have my awareness as I get the opportunity to talk to these people and understand what's— how they start thinking and what's their— what are they looking at? Like in the financial world right now, right, with the interest rates, are they going to go up or go down? All these. So I talk to these people, so I'm aware. Of how I'm going to make my first or next move. So that's that's how I do it. I mean, there's a lot of ways I guess you can, but that's how I start trying to just elevate just a little bit about one percent like the one percent thing. Just one percent a little bit here, a little bit there. So all the different areas of my life, even gustatory, right? I mean, talk about olfactory, right? That you smell, but gustatory how you even the things that I you know I test things out when I taste because you know if I taste something it is ranker. It's like ugh. You know, also I got association. So that's how I do it. Now, a mentor— fortunately for me, my first mentor came into my life, and when he said that, he said, you know, when he told me, he said, you know, yes, I'll show you how to be successful. And what did I have to lose? I'm 24 years old, I'm making $13,000 a year. Somebody's going to give me the opportunity to be around them, right? So I, I tell people, all people, I tell people, all you gotta do is call. This is so much easier now than it was in 1984. We, now you got the internet, you know, you got the internet now. I mean, I even have virtual mentors and I have like Abraham Lincoln. I've got like Ronald Reagan for communications. And I, I read everything about these people because they can mentor me even when they're not here. Right. And I can learn so much about how did Reagan, how was he known as a great communicator? What did he do, right? How did Lincoln become a leader, right? When he lost every election up to the president, he lost everything. He never won. He goes for president, right? So he always, he always lost up, right? Duh, right? So that's how I, I come here. And so for somebody personally, right, my personal mentor right now, Don, he's an entrepreneur down in Atlanta, and he's, he's amazing how he sells companies and how he does this, right? And so I just said, Don, can you teach me how to do this? You know, just show me. He goes, yeah. And so, and Don is 55 years old, he's younger than me, but you know what, he's got a skill set. All I did say, you know, because I know now there are people out there who would die to mentor somebody. I mean, I leave every talk, one of my talks is, you know, one of the lessons my mentor taught me. If you're going to be a leader, it's a must that you mentor somebody. You have to mentor somebody. You've got to leave it for somebody else. Do not die with it. Like he said to me, do not let it die with you. So there's people out there. All you got to do is be aware, you know, someone who takes some interest in you, who wants you to win, and just ask them, will you show me how you got to be who you are? I mean, I got— I'll give you an example. After, after, after the Miracle on the Hudson, Tony Robbins was the only guy that called me that night in the hospital. Only my company didn't call me, but he did. And one of the things he told me, he said, listen, when you get to LA, because he lived in Palm Springs at that point, he said, when you get to LA, call me. I want to talk to you. I want to tell you what's going to be going on, right? So I was going to LA for all these TV shows and I called him and he gave me a 3-hour doctoral on how he basically became Tony Robbins, what he, how he looked at the world and what I should now be looking at in the world. Because my life's changing now. It's going to change dramatically, right? And people are going to come at you positively and negatively. There's always somebody out there coming after you, right? So for 3 hours, he and I had this conversation. I learned so much about how— what I've got to start thinking about now, because I never had to think this way before. He gave me a doctoral mentoring session in 3 hours. So And he was very kind to offer that to me. But then I travel— I've been— I paid it back. I traveled with him and supported him in his mission. So it's a 2-way street. I tell people, you know, you have a mentor who's going to give, you got to give them something too. You got to give them either the energy or, or thought process, something. And once you have that, watch what happens.

Um, you know, I know we're running out of time. Can I ask you to come back?

Sure. Yeah, we haven't even talked about my new book yet.

I know, I know. We haven't talked about that. We haven't talked about, you know, your relationship with Tony Robbins. We haven't talked about how people come after you, positive and negative, and how they— okay, we have to talk.

Yep, we'll do it. Thank you very much for having me.

Don't, don't go away now, audience. I hope you come back for part 2. I'm so psyched. I, I Thank you for tuning in. We'll see you next week. Thank you, Dave.

Thank you, CB.