180- Courage to Leap & Lead with Kristen Szabla, part 1

You've got courage to leap, courage to lead.

Be brave and be bold.

Whoa, let it roar. Welcome to the Courage to Leap and Lead podcast, where each of our guests share the stories of courage that helped them become powerful leaders. Before we start today's show, please remember to visit courage-consulting.com. Where you can find all the episodes and other excellent resources, all at courage-consulting.com. Now here's your host, Leadership Courage Coach CB Bowman.

Hello everybody. It's Tuesday, so it's your favorite, of course, self-pronounced favorite, CB Bowman, hyphen, Ottomanelli. And this is Courage to Leap and Lead. And we have an extraordinary guest today, Dr. Christine. I won't attempt to pronounce her last name. I'll let her do that. Because, you know, guys, I always mess up the last names. So, and I'm getting used to it with a hyphenated Ottomanelli, right? Dr. Christine, welcome to the show. Thank you.

Well, well, thank you for having me on the show. I'm glad to be here.

Great.

So how do you pronounce your last name?

It's Dr. Kristen Zabla, like the S is silent. Zabla.

So is it Russian?

Uh, it is Polish.

Polish. Okay. So, Doctor, is that your maiden name or your married name?

It's my maiden name. Yeah.

Your maiden name. You're like me. I really didn't take— although it shows Ottomanelli, my husband said, you can use your name because nobody will know how to pronounce mine.

I didn't add on the other name because I have publications in my name, so I'm not going to screw it up. So I didn't want to.

And that's what I'm running into. My book that was released in January has my husband's last name hyphenated on. And somebody said, but all your website doesn't have that. I said, well, it's too late now.

Oh well.

So, Dr. Christine, so you know this show is about Courage to Leap and Lead, and what we like to talk about is how did you— how have you experienced Failure and turned it into success. And I know that you've been involved with sex trafficking on the positive side, not on the negative side, but yes, a little bit about you and how you got into this arena.

Yeah, sure. Um, so as you said, I, I was a victim of commercial sexual exploitation. And I think—

wait, timeout. What does that mean?

It means human trafficking.

You were a victim of it?

Yeah.

So our audience doesn't know that. So let's start at the beginning. You know, where were you born and how did this all happen?

I was actually born in Buffalo, New York, and then shortly after I was born, we moved to Oklahoma because my dad got a different job, a better job. And so, um, yeah, so I was a victim of Human trafficking, incest and human trafficking since a very early age. There's not a time that I, in my young life, that I do not remember the horror of the sexual violence that I dealt with or I endured. So I think—

Is that with your father or a stranger or?

Both.

Tell us what happened. Tell us.

Um, well, um, basically, um, my parents had a, like, a room in the house that, um, it was exclusively used for sexual purposes when people came over and paid to have sex with me. Also, um, there were times— I mean, I'm just going the overview. And also there were times when, um, I'm sorry, dog.

That's okay, mine will jump in at any time.

And anyway, so I, and you know, when I got—

How old were you when this started?

Um, when the, when the sex trafficking started, I was 6, but, uh, I had incest occur, you know, 3 to, uh, my almost you know, my whole growing up experience, my whole growing up experience. And then, um, so, and my dad used to do business with people from international business and they would come and I, I would be offered as a, I guess, a gift or a, a, a promo, a bonus for them if they wanted to do business with his company. So, and I quickly learned that, you know, Asian cultures and, uh, Middle Eastern cultures really like blonde Girls, and yeah. So, so anyway, so courage.

Was your man? Was your mom aware of this?

Um, I think denial plays a strong role in her life, and um, I can say denial still exists for her today. My dad's deceased now, so. And, you know, it's, it's so funny. I, I think I was able to survive because I was always trying to figure out what people were thinking and why they were acting certain ways. And I think it actually took courage to do, to do the simplest things when I was growing up, like, like get on a school bus, go to school. Uh, but once I was in school, I thrived because I really loved school and learning. And I was always the teacher's pet. So that was, that really helped me survive. But, but this, you know, the simple things like getting on a school bus, you know, it's kind of like, for me, courage is, you really have, it's courage that is, it's actually fear that has said its prayers. And then you go take action because if there has to be something that's not comfortable in order for us to have courage, because if it was easy for us to do, we wouldn't need that. So, and, you know, over time, you know, education helped me escape my circumstances. And again, courage, because, you know, I thought, you know, I thought every— growing up, I thought everyone thought I was a slut, like I had a scarlet letter S, you know, analogous to Hester Prynne in Nathaniel Hawthorne's book, The Scarlet Letter. And I thought I was dumb, stupid. Only made to serve others sexually, because I was told all those things growing up. And but I, I, I somehow had some kind of ambivalent North Star in my head. And, you know, I was very interested in the brain, ever, always had been since I was, you know, about 13. And so I went to, I got a PhD in neuroscience. And initially, I went there to determine the molecular weight of suffering. And I— so what basically—

You're throwing so much at us that our listeners are probably like in a state of shock. So no, no, no, you're good. But can I just break down a couple of things?

Oh, absolutely.

Yeah. Because first of all, I have so much respect for you. And you threw so much pain and heart out that I want to go— I want to know more. I mean, why were you afraid to get on the bus? What was happening then?

It's because nothing was happening on the bus. I was an inherently shy child, probably before anything ever happened to me. So that's one thing. And I had so much fear and anxiety because of what was happening to me that even the simple things in life were like overwhelming.

Mm.

And, and, um, sometimes it, you know, I, I, sometimes it can, can be that way for me now, you know, because it always seems like, um, you know, people, you know, the simple things that people do is like, those are the hard things. But getting a PhD in neuroscience, that was the easy thing, you know.

Not to me, it wouldn't be. I'm highly dyslexic, and I was like, oh no. Now, this started at the age of 6, the trafficking?

Yes.

Yeah. When you mean trafficking, do you mean that people coming from other countries and Your father sort of—

Yeah, yeah. So trafficking does not necessarily mean crossing state lines or international lines. That's smuggling. So trafficking is, um, when basically you're— somebody is used— is, is basically you're, you're trapped and this person is selling you for sexual purposes to other people.

I did not know that. I thought, and I'm sure many of our listeners thought, it meant Across state lines or into other countries?

I mean, I did go into— I did go across state lines and another country when I was older in that situation, but it doesn't necessarily have to be that way.

Ah, I see. Okay. So people coming into your home and taking advantage of you, and your mom, you said, was in denial. What did she think these people were doing when they went into that room with you by yourself?

Um, that's a very good question, and I've never found that answer.

Fair enough, fair enough. Um, what was your father's background that led him to do this horrific act?

Yeah, that's a good question, because you would think it would— there would be, you know, intergenerational trauma that would lead to this. Um, sure, I do know he was, uh, you know, a victim of Child abuse, like emotional abuse, verbal abuse, neglect, and physical abuse. But I don't know how that translated to to what he did with with me or to me. So I've always I've thought about it so many times that I don't know the translation. I mean, yeah, there was physical abuse too, and yelling and screaming because that's what he knew growing up. But then this other thing, I don't know where that came from.

Did he have a regular job or you were his source of income?

Uh, no, he had— my, my mom was a nurse. She became the director of nursing, and my, my dad, uh, was the vice president, uh, at a company in, uh, Tulsa, Oklahoma.

Wow. Wow. Your mom being a nurse just Did— chose not to face it or did not choose or whatever the term would be?

Yeah, I think with my mom, I mean, not that I'm here to talk about her, but she, she had different aspects of her. She was very kind, caring, compassionate with patients. She was very good at managing staff. But at home, things were different. She was Kind of just not there. Like, you know, she was there physically, but something about her was just gone, you know.

And tell me about her parents quickly.

Um, so her parents— she grew up in, you know, a middle-class neighborhood in, um, Kenmore, Kenmore, New York. Um, and her parents— my grandmother She was a housewife, and my grandfather went to work every day, came home at 6, 8. So my grandmother was the typical classic, you know, housewife. She, you know, after World War II, she didn't continue to work. She got married and decided to stay home, had a couple, had some kids, and then, you know, she made her work her home, you know.

But no abuse to your mom?

Not to my knowledge.

Okay. And so you went through elementary school, your teachers had no idea what was going on? No.

I was, I was, I was taught to not tell, and I was terrified to tell because I thought I was going to be the one in trouble. Um, so, and, and it's interesting you bring that up because When I was in kindergarten, I came home from school and I was so scared because I thought I said something wrong, meaning I thought I had divulged, and I was afraid the kindergarten teacher was going to come to our house and tell my parents what I said. Obviously, I didn't say anything, but that's how afraid I was.

And so what did you do? You just hid or prayed or—

I did. Yeah, I did all of the above. I definitely prayed. I cried a lot. Um, and I, um, as I got older, you know, I mean, I'm a scientist and I have a liberal view of, um, religion, spirituality, but, you know, I did read the Bible a lot of times and that really gave me hope. And, you know, there's, do not be afraid, I think is said about 365 times in the Bible.

Mm-hmm.

And I, I just really, uh, grasped you know, held on to those things. And I held on, and I also read a lot. I, and I held on, not only did it help me escape my circumstances, but I also, it also helped me gain wisdom and knowledge, like, you know, from Maya Angelou. You know, I was, I was also stuck in the 19th century with Emily Dickinson and, you know, Emily Brontë. So, you know, I would go back and forth. So, yeah. And I think Maya Angelou is, she was an amazing human being. So, uh, insightful, and I wish I had met her.

Me too. And she was abused as a child.

I know she was, and that's— that resonated with me. And she didn't speak for 5 years, and the woman who— the girl who didn't speak for 5 years became just the speaker for the, the whole world almost.

It's amazing.

Yeah, it's amazing.

I'm not even sure where to take this interview next, but tell me about your teenage years.

My teenage years, um, well, like most teenagers, my teenage years were horrible, except they were, um, probably more so than most teenager years because I was undergoing, um, you know, the trafficking that was happening at home. And I, but, you know, I was, again, school saved me. I was a good student. I was in honors and AP classes. And, you know, any little kind remark from a teacher, I really took it to mean probably more than they meant it. And I held on to that, like, like for dear life. Just like, you know, reading poems, I held on to that for dear life. You know, and it got me through. Until I could, you know, go to college, etc.

So let me ask you, you were— were you afraid to go home after class when you were in your teen years?

It really depended on the day. I mean, I— it was interestingly that my home life was very structured. You know, there was an expectation that as soon as I got home, I get my homework done because other things would happen later on. So, but there was that expectation of homework done, you know, that even though my parents never checked, they didn't ask about how school was going, you know what I mean?

Yeah. And how did you survive in high school? I mean, Shipped off to another country, was it during the school year?

It was in the summer. And, um, how did I survive during high school? Um, probably by the grace of God, because, um, high school is hard. I was not a popular kid. I was, I was shy again. I was quiet, shy. I was, you know, considered a nerd because I was smart. And so that's never an optimal high school experience. And—

How did you know? Sorry to interrupt you, Doctor. How did you know that things were not right at home?

Because I learned it didn't happen in other people's houses.

What age were you?

I was in elementary school and I learned that other people had friends go over to their house. I couldn't do that. And I was very rarely let to go over to— like, if I was invited to a friend's house, most of the time I was not allowed to go. And so over time, people stop asking, and that— you don't have friends. You have yourself.

How did you know that the sexual abuse was wrong? Because if you were raised from, say, age 6 with this and you couldn't talk about it to anybody, How did you start to learn that this was not the normal?

Well, that took— I think that was, um, it took a lot of time. I— something, it felt out of— not normal to me. It— because, you know, it didn't feel right. And the secrecy, to me, it was, um, it was like a prison. Um, and I felt imprisoned, and I thought, surely You know, and for a while I thought other people felt the same and experienced the same. But then, you know, it took me until I got into like 6th, 7th, or 8th grade. I overheard, um, a girl talking about how she had, you know, given something to a boy that was sexual in nature. And I didn't even know at the time that what was happening was actually a sexual act. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, that's why I'm curious to know.

It was only when I overheard this, this girl talking about what she had done with this boy, I thought, and I, I like, I like panicked. I had no idea that that was the same thing, you know.

What had she— do you remember what she had given him?

Oh, she gave him oral sex.

Oh, okay. All right.

And this was—

you were in 7th grade?

I was in 8th grade actually when she— when I heard that.

Mm-hmm.

And, um, then, you know, you know, you, you have lunchtime, you walk around with people that are friends, you know, you have a little time. And in that age range, you know, people start talking about those kind of things. And, um, so, you know, I, I had some friends that were girls that started talking about what it was, what it might be. They were wondering what it might, might be like to have sex, and they would describe what they think it— thought it was like. And I was like, that even— that further confirmed the fact that I was having sexual activity with my father and others that I did not know.

Okay, so at 8th grade, what age were you?

I was 13. Yeah, I turned 13 in 8th grade.

And so when you found this out, how did you feel and what did you do?

I felt terrified and I felt like a slut because I was like, oh my gosh, I can't even count the number of times that I've done this. And so basically, you know, as a lot of us do, we take the negative feelings and put them on ourselves. And I just didn't know what to do other than just, I'm going to keep it secret until Like, I never thought I'd tell anybody. I never thought— I just thought, you know, once I got my PhD, um, you know, I would have a career, things would go on, and I would be okay. But that wasn't so not true, you know.

Okay, so then you entered college and this was still going on?

For a little while, and then it stopped.

What made it stop?

Honestly, I can't tell you that. I don't know the answer.

Wow.

So he just stopped bringing in these people and stopped sending you away?

Uh, well, part of it is, um, he lost his job around then, and, um, he, he was— he, he was— had— he suffered from mental illness, and it was getting more and more severe because He didn't choose to take the medications that were prescribed to him. So that's—

What kind of mental illness?

Uh, severe major depressive disorder, suicidal ideation, uh, anxiety. Like, he was intense, you know, just so anxious. And, um, so I think, um, things that were happening internally with him prevented him from basically messing with me. And that, that was Advantageous for me.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Although, you know, you know, I hate to see someone suffering, even though I was still suffering and I didn't even know it. Yeah.

Yeah. Did you ever talk to your mom about this?

I have attempted. It's just, it's on a subject that she will, she will, she will stop the conversation, block it down. So, um, I have had to learn to accept that even though I, I have a biological mother, I feel— I've always felt like a motherless daughter. And because I can't go to her with my concerns or fears or anything and really get, uh, an authentic response or authentic You know, reassurance. So I've had to. I've learned to, you know, find other mother figures in my life to kind of fill that need.

Right, right. So this stopped what? Your first year in college or something?

Yeah.

And did you ever talk to any relatives about it?

No.

No.

Do you have a sense that they may have known what was going on?

Uh, I do, I do. Um, some of them, especially, uh, uh, my aunt that my father's, um, brother married, the woman my father's brother married. I, I think she sensed something because, I mean, whenever they had kids, their kids were never with us. Alone ever. And so she sensed it.

For sure. For sure. So in college, I mean, when did you come to clarity in your mind that— I guess there's several questions. One is that you could handle this, what happened to you, You can turn it into an experience to help others. Right.

Um, is that— uh, so basically, um, that did not happen in college for me. I was, I was stuck dealing with the aftereffects of the— my protracted abuse, which was, you know, fight-flight responses to just normal, normal stimuli and Lots of depression, lots of anxiety. So for years, I struggled and struggled and struggled with that. You know, no matter what kind of medications I was put in, nothing worked. And then finally, it was not until my dad died that I was able to, you know, reach out to a therapist for the first time and say the words that I was abused. And it was a slow process, and I. did that. I took the leap, or I took, you know, I courageously leaped to the therapist and trusted what she told me to do, because if I didn't do that at the time, I would have died. And so it was a— I chose life, you know.

Can you share for our listeners what advice she gave you?

Oh, well, there's lots of advice, basically, you know. Number one, we had— I experienced a flooding of previous experiences, negative experiences after my dad died. And so basically learning to ground myself and contain those negative things so they don't intrude on my daily life.

Did you blame yourself for his death?

And, you know, there's just so many things, learning how to manage the anxiety and learning, you know, whether your emotional responses are congruent with what is actually going on in the world. Because so many times, I mean, this happens in workplaces, this happens wherever you are, you know, your boss asks you to do something and all of a sudden, you know, my anxiety is like greater than a 10. And I'm like, why? I know I can do it. I've done it before. What? Why am I getting so anxious?

You know? Yes, I understand that. Yeah, we've all got that. I, I think it's, uh, there's so many different names for it. It's trigger points, it is emotional reflux, it is, um, the imposter syndrome. It just—

oh yeah. Totally. Yeah, I, I know that imposter syndrome. Yeah.

Yeah, I think we both do for different reasons.

I'm sure we do. I think all women definitely do.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So, okay, so then you decided to go to college. Was that, was that as a result of the therapy?

Oh, my therapy wasn't until after I finished my PhD.

Get out of here. Yeah. Wow, you had that incredible strength to move.

I wouldn't call it— I wouldn't call it strength. I would call it fear of being found out that I was an actual slut, which I don't think any woman is a slut. No one's a slut no matter what they do. Um, but, um, and, and I, I thought that back then as well, but For me, it was somehow different, you know, in my mind.

So you went through your PhD thinking like this?

Oh, yeah.

How the hell did you get through your PhD?

Um, I was— because I, um, I was able to focus on, you know, something very technical, something very cognitive. So basically what that did was, um, you know, activate the prefrontal cortex. And when people are traumatized, the prefrontal cortex becomes less active. So I was able to do that. So I— those, you know, memories, thoughts of myself would go to the back of my— like, go— they'd be there, but they'd be in the background so I could focus on the, the task at hand.

That takes tremendous strength.

Um, I think it takes consistency.

Yeah. Whoa, consistent strength. Oh my God, yes, it took strength. I can't even imagine.

And it took courage because, like I said, I have fears. I, I had fears of things that were just not— were nothing to fear. And so it took courage to, you know, take a step in the lab and, you know, do what you need to do. And, you know, of course, that's true of all PhD students because in the sciences, you're there to sink or swim. But, you know, it's— yeah, I think I felt it probably more intensely than the average would. You know.

I just— I am having trouble processing the strength that you had to be able to move those emotions, feelings, or behavior to the back to allow this brilliance to come through and override that?

Yeah, I figured that out when I was in college. I learned that if I was able to focus on something like calculus, statistics, something like that, my anxieties, my fears, my I had phobias for a while. They went to the back. They just kind of disappeared, and I felt like, you know, like normal, whatever normal is, you know.

Did you date during this period of time?

No, no, I did not date. I mean, I had a couple dates in college because a friend set me up, but they led to no relationship. And I wasn't there in— when I was in Dallas, I wasn't there to date. I was there to get a PhD, although other people did other things. But probably because I couldn't date. And it was when I met this person here that in 2016, 2017 that I really needed— I knew I needed to seek help because A person who has unresolved issues in this area can't truly be in a relationship, an intimate relationship with a partner or a spouse, you know.

Of course not. So it was due to your husband that you were able to— he encouraged you to see a therapist, or did you just in yourself know?

I knew. However, I kept a lot from him for years because I was so ashamed. And I told him finally, because I'm a writer, so writing helps me. It's a release, you know, and that's part of how I also survived is by writing and also writing poetry.

You know, I'm smiling because Whenever I get really pissed at my husband, it's like I have different degrees of being pissed. The top is I write him a letter, and he lets that letter sit on the desk for days because he knows— I love it. Such deep trouble, he just doesn't want to deal with it. So I'm smiling when I hear that.

I actually wrote a letter to my husband for the first time this weekend, and he was like, what is that? I go, it's for you. He had no idea. So he read it. He was like, but why are you giving me work to do? I'm like, because, because you're part of this house. You have to do it.

I love it.

You're part of this house. I'm not doing all your work.

Good for you. Good for you. I keep a honey-do list with magnet back on the refrigerator, and he crosses out everything he does, right?

That's amazing.

Yeah. So, so you met this fella and you decided that you wanted to seek support at this point and that you were able to communicate.

Yeah. The problem is finding You know, I think you mentioned, alluded to it, uh, on a previous podcast of yours regarding trauma and mental health, is, is finding someone who is actually experienced enough and is able to, to actually help you. Because a lot of times I went through a lot of like, um, consultations, and when I told them the overview of what happened, they're like, I can't help you, I can't help you.

And it's like, at least they admitted it.

Yeah. And or they say, I can't— I don't— the one was really kind of crazy, and she was like, I don't believe you ever got a PhD. So I snapped the photo of my diploma, sent it to her, and said, this won't work.

Oh my God. I wonder if she's going under therapy herself.

Oh, she should if she's not.

Yeah.

Oh my.

But so, yeah. So it's really hard to find People who are really trained to truly help a person and not just pathologize them or think of them as just a client. I mean, people who have been through severe trauma like myself, they really need a relationship of some sort. I mean, obviously, there's boundaries, but it is relationship that heals. Yes.

So truer words are never said. Oh my God. Yeah.

I mean, you also have to— I mean, first the relationship starts to heal you, and then you have to learn— I had to learn how to heal myself.

Um, that's an interesting statement. Yes, tell me more.

Because, because first of all, I've— in my experience, whenever you're in crisis, there's not always going to be somebody there to like pick up the phone and help you calm down. that's not going to happen in life. That— and so you, as a person, all of us need to learn how to self-soothe. Um, and it is harder for people who have experienced trauma or, or like other mental illnesses because, um, it's the way our brains are wired. Um, they're kind of not wired correctly. So, um, I had— I did a lot of things. Um, you know, I— you know, the brain has an inherent negativity bias.

Mm-hmm.

And, um, so I had to do a lot of—

I did not know that.

Yes, uh, it's evolutionary. It's from evolutionary perspective. We used to be hunters and gatherers way back when, running from predators. So that's where it comes from. That's when it's— that's where scientists think it's come from.

So that is the negative. Uh, relate to survival? I mean, does survival have to be on the negative side of the brain?

Not necessarily, not at all. And in fact, if you stay in the negative too much, you're not going to survive, in my opinion. So, you know, I did a lot of things to, you know, kind of, um, enhance my brain's positive positive aspects. Like, for example, no matter how bad I felt, I wrote 10 gratitudes daily. I still do this. I wrote 10 affirmations daily.

What's the difference between a gratitude and an affirmation?

A gratitude is, um, I am grateful. Like, I am grateful that I have a house or I have a place to live. I'm grateful that I have a job. I am grateful for my My kitties, that kind of thing. Because, and, uh, an affirmation is, I am strong, I am powerful, I am a warrior, I can do this, that kind of thing.

Okay. Okay. So go ahead. This is really good learning.

And then I also, uh, the hardest thing I had to do was learn to kind of remother that hurt metaphorical child, little girl that lived and still lived inside of me. And so to do that, I, I did a lot of— it was creative, but also it was very internal. I created a metaphorical room and I called it the heart room. So it would be a safe room where that little girl could go when she was scared. And I filled it, like, in my mind, I filled it with, like, heart-shaped pillows and, you know, blankets, etc. I painted a huge rainbow. We painted sunflowers on the walls and a big, huge tree. And those things that I painted were symbols for me. And basically, it was like talking to myself, yet talking to a younger part of myself. Like when I was in distress, thinking of the tree. I mean, I do yoga. Thinking of the tree, doing tree pose, and thinking, you know, how the, how the tree— trees weather so many storms. They're so deeply rooted into the ground, and, and they have their branches of possibility going up into the sky. And so I tried to be a tree, and I imagined my feet having roots just like a tree. And then everywhere I step, my root goes up, and then it goes right back down again. So I am on the ground, I am grounded. And so that's one symbol I used. Another was like the sunflower. So when I felt hopeless or I wanted to die, I looked to the sunflower because sunflowers for me symbolize hope. And because they always point to the sun, they point to the light. So it's not— there's not all, you know, in my brain, there's been a lot of darkness. And I needed to find the light. And so, you know, I, I, you know, I, you know, metaphysically, metaphorically taught the little girl that. And, you know, we would, you know, draw suns and pretend, you know, practice pointing our sunflowers to the sun so that that can be instilled. And I actually did a lot of drawing like that, like kid-type drawing, but with myself. I knew I didn't really have a little girl with me. And I also taught her the importance of gratitude, and I also taught her about the rainbow. Um, I said, um, although there may be many things that are dark, um, dark clouds, each cloud can contain a rainbow. And similar to, similar to what Maya Angelou has described, similar to what, um, you know, probably a slave in the 1800s wrote about a cloud in the sky and put a rainbow in the cloud. And those are the things that remind you of the people or the situations that got you through. So you remember gratitude. You have to be grateful for what you've been given and gotten so far. And Slowly, it's a very slow process over time. Things change in for me at least.

I'm mesmerized by you, and it takes a lot to mesmerize me.

Wow!

Because I when I do an interview, I'm just flowing, flowing, flowing. But everything you say is just locking into my brain in. and traveling to different parts of my brain. It's— I, I'm having trouble concentrating enough to ask you the next question because I'm sorry.

I'm sorry.

No, it's good. I'm locking into what you said. And it's— so it's a new experience for me. I just— wow is the only thing I could say about you, young lady.

Well, thank you. Well, and you know, it took a lot of internal self-working. So it's really hard work. It's the hardest thing I've ever done in my life is to overcome what has happened to me. And I mean, I still have some healing to do. It's a process. It's not like it doesn't— it's like a destination. It's not a destination. It's a journey, not a destination. So, you know, and, you know, I still You know, see therapy, a therapist and all that kind of stuff. And I, um, I need that sometimes because I, sometimes I overreact to things and I need her, her to, you know, give me the feedback and bounce back things to me like, well, maybe you're thinking about this wrong, you know.

Mm-hmm.

But, um, yeah. And so I would say for me, the most courageous thing I ever did was Uh, continue to recover from that which was done for me— done to me. That was the most courageous thing I ever did. And the reason I did it, um, is because I knew if I didn't, I would kill myself because I was that suicidal at the time.

So what age were you at that time?

Uh, this was like, um, 7 years ago, 7, 8 years ago. So I was, I was—

This was after you finished your PhD?

Oh, yeah. I was like in my 30s.

And your PhD is in what now?

Neuroscience as well as pharmacology. But neuroscience, neuroscience is the basic.

Oh, I, I'm still I'm still trying to figure out, and I, I heard what you said about being able to put things in different compartments in your head and move them around. I still can't even phantom how you're able to do that given what happened to you.

Yeah, it's, it's really difficult. And when you can't, obviously there's like tears. You're on the floor convulsing in tears and holding on to anything you can find so you don't kill yourself. So yeah, if you— if, if you— for me, if I couldn't have done that, I, I fell apart. And there were times I always— I fell apart, you know. And I was like, you know, probably wailing and the whole apartment building heard me, you know. It's like, who is that?

Anyways, audience, this has been an incredible experience that— I don't know what to say. Come back for part 2. Okay.