181- Courage to Leap & Lead with Barry Posner, part 2

You've got courage to leap, courage to lead.

Be brave and be bold. Whoa, let it roar.

Welcome to the Courage to Leap and Lead podcast, where each of our guests share the stories of courage that helped them become powerful leaders. Before we start today's show, please remember to visit courage-consulting.com. Where you can find all the episodes and other excellent resources, all at courage-consulting.com. Now, here's your host, Leadership Courage Coach CB Bowman.

I'll ask an audience, how many of you like to be taken for granted? And nobody raises— nobody says, I like to be taken for granted. So it doesn't make a difference what country, culture, height you are, ethnicity, age, education. Nobody likes to be taken for granted. So you have to figure out then, how do I make sure that the, that the person or the people I'm working with don't feel I'm taking them for granted? So how I would recognize a 5-year-old is going to be different than how I recognize a 15-year-old or a 35-year-old or a 55-year-old. But so the challenge is how do I do that for that audience? So the people, back to my shoe store, people came into the shoe store, they didn't all want the same shoes and they didn't all have the same size and they didn't all have the same taste. So I had to figure out, well, what is it that they wanted that worked for them? You know, they wanted high heels, they wanted low heels, they wanted flats and I mean, what, what— so we had to, you know, we had to— I, I had to find something that would fit for them. And the same thing in then for the, for the 5-year-old or the 15-year-old or, or the, the employee that I have in, in, um, in Germany that's different than the employee that I, that I have in Belize is different than the employee that I have in California. And I have to figure out Okay, how do I, how do I recognize them in a way that makes sense for them?

But, but you're saying that within those behaviors, there is a common denominator.

Well, it's a, it's the principle, the, the, you know, you know, so what, you know, treating people with dignity and respect, that's an important leadership behavior.

Exactly. Yeah.

You know, giving people a great deal of freedom. in choosing how they do their work. That's an important principle. But once again, if I was working with somebody that was brand new in the job, I would narrow the boundaries. And if I was dealing with somebody that had 15 years of experience, the boundaries would be greater. But the principle is still the same. You know, they need to feel that they have the freedom to figure out what they need to do. in to do their jobs effectively. But, you know, and, and so that, that's my challenge, to act appropriately.

One of the things, um, I'm not sure that I heard you mention that I wondered how it fit in is acceptance of feedback or criticism. How does that fit into being a good leader?

Well, interestingly enough, one of the questions on our Leadership Practice Inventory is, you know, to what extent does this person ask for feedback on how their behavior affects other people's performance?

Oh, okay. So is there a difference between asking for feedback versus unsolicited feedback?

Nobody likes unsolicited feedback. We have a hard enough time liking the feedback that we ask for, let alone, you know, walking into a restaurant and somebody says, oh, you look ugly. I didn't even ask you. I didn't, you know, you know, if I ask you how I look, I'm not even sure then I want you to tell me. That's the problem. But unsolicited, you know, no, nobody, nobody, nobody likes unsolicited feedback. Of these 30 behaviors, this one that says I ask for feedback is, is at the bottom. That's the one that people indicate that is the, is the least likely of the 30 behaviors that they, that they engage in. And yet it's one of the most critical because if you, if you don't have a baseline, if you don't know how you're doing, then there's no way that you can improve on how, on how it is that you're doing. The challenge for us is that most, most of the— most other people aren't very comfortable giving us feedback, even when we ask for it. Um, so—

Is it— I'm so excited about this subject. Is there a way that a good leader or good leadership gives feedback as well as solicits it?

Well, I mean, there, yeah, there's, there's, there's clearly rules for giving good feedback. It's, it's, it's timely, it's, it's specific, um, you know, it's, it, I mean, it's, it's, it's tied to something that people, you know, people can under— can understand. The, the knack in, in, in asking for it Is, is at least twofold. One, one is, um, you have to prepare people to give you feedback. You know, you have to, um, because, because they're not, because they're not used to doing it. And particularly in a power, in a power difference. I mean, it's one thing maybe for, for a colleague to be able to say, so, you know, how, how did I do then? Um, but if you're, if you're there, if you're their supervisor, then they have to be very careful on what it is that they're going to say because there's a concern about then, well, how will you view them? So, a couple pieces of advice that I give people is one is you have to ask for it a lot. You know, you have to ask for it a lot before people believe that. So, when I was the dean of the school, I would say that, you know, I would say in a performance appraisal, for example, I would say, so what What is it that I could do better that would help you do your job? Oh no, you're doing a great job, Barry. You know, it's really great. You know, no, I know I'm not that good. I know that there's things I could be doing. What would they be? Oh no, I can't think of anything. You're just, you know, you're okay. So fine. Thank you. I'm perfect. Great. So great. Not very helpful because I really would like to do, you know, I really would like to do a better job for you. Um, so I have to ask, I have to, I have to spend a lot of time with that. Um, what helps to get feedback is to be asking for something more specific. So, you know, so, so asking about something like, uh—

Oh, I'll give an example. I just had one the other day. So I have somebody that I work With who is in the Philippines, and we're just— we're bringing him up to speed on things that need to be done. And, you know, he has a project list. He's an amazing young man, and he keeps asking me— he kept asking me questions that I felt like at this point he should know the answers. And I was getting upset, and finally something clicked in my head and I said, You're upset at the wrong thing. What you need to do is ask him how you could have better worded it so that he understood. What we found out— this was really interesting— I was using the word— I was saying to him, create a post, and he kept asking, you know, well, I don't understand, what do you mean? So it turns out that the word post in, in his language, in his experience, meant a short, like, paragraph or words. In my world, in my views, a post was something you put on LinkedIn with a photograph and a, a description and everything.

Mm-hmm.

And so I said, oh my God. What a— what an easy fix. And so I said, I showed him a picture of a post in LinkedIn, and I said, this is what— and he said, oh my, now I understand why you keep using that word post. And then I said to him, okay, the next assignment, reword it for me so that you would understand it. And I learned how to communicate to you. It was such an eye-awakening experience that I think that it just, it just showed that it opened the doors of communication. Now, was it hard for me to do? Oh, yes. Because I'm thinking, well, wait a second. I'm I have to keep saying to you what I— I know I already like the person, so I had to figure out what was going on that was troubling me and therefore making him nervous.

Sure. Well, you know, look, the big, big part in any relationship is communications. Um, I'm I mean, that's, you know, that's— and particularly when we're trying to do it virtually or cross-culturally, you know, words just have different, different meanings in the context. You know, the other, the other thing that might have happened in that situation is the other piece of advice that I give people is, is to in fact not, not ask for feedback, but to ask for advice. advice doesn't seem to be quite as evaluative, uh, from an assessment point of view. Feedback seems like good or bad advice. So sort of, sort of asking, so, you know, in that, in that meeting, you know, how, how good a job did I do in that meeting when it comes to A or B? But rather to sort of say, what advice would you have for me about how I could be better at soliciting feedback from, from people in, in, in meetings? What, what advice would you have for me? And see, I think, I think people are willing to give advice. They're not willing to give feedback, but they are.

I love what you just said. I absolutely love it. Because in my culture, when somebody says to you, I want to give you some feedback, you— mine goes, it's negative, it's negative, I'm going to be fired. Advice means that they're taking you under their wings and helping you. I love it.

Yeah, yeah, I think you're right. Feedback seems, seems like they're going to tell us something we don't want to hear. Yeah, and advice seems like, you know, you've got my, you got my back, you know. You want—

I'm taking it to the bank. I love it. It's, it's my new word now. Thank you for coaching me. I love that.

Make it, make it your own and pass it forward then.

Um, Barry, first of all, show us your book because we're running out. I know that you have, uh, another appointment. Show us your book, The Leadership Challenge, in the 7th edition. Audience, can you believe? I'm so jealous.

Well, here's, here's, here's, here's a, here's a piece of advice.

Yes.

I think that, you know, if, uh, if, if, uh, if, you know, to, if to leap and lead is, is good for a first edition, it ought to be good for a second edition. And one of my criticisms for authors is that, you know, we, you know, too many times we flit from one topic to another topic to another topic. As opposed to coming back to what we thought was really important and continuing to— I mean, the 7th edition of our book is better than the 1st edition. Each time we write the book, we get clearer. Each time we write the book, you know, we have to, you know, look at new data and we have to contemporize it. But if the, you know, if the principles made sense back in 1987 when the first edition was published, you know, either, either they make sense today or they don't. And if they don't, then don't write another edition. But if you still think that what you've said is still valuable, um, then, then you ought to— then you, you ought to write a second edition. So good luck, write a second edition. So do all those books on your shelf and write a second edition.

My, my publisher said— I was telling him what I what I was thinking for the next book. And he said— he was very, very quiet— and then he said, you know, CB, it seems to be taking you into a different direction. You might want to stay in the same frame. And I thought, bull. And now I'm hearing it from an icon. Okay.

I mean, if you have something, if you have something, if you believe you have something really important to say about courage, then I mean, rep— the repetition. I mean, it's just an important— talk about community— just an important principle. If you want people to, to get it, you have to repeat it and repeat it and repeat it and repeat it. Yes, I get it. Um, so that's not to say that you can't do other things, but But don't get off this. If this is a good soapbox, then stay with it.

I love the soapbox. Yeah. Barry, before you go, I want to go back to another thing that you said about courage and practicing. I'm sorry, leadership and practicing. That's the same thing, right? Leaders— that question, are leaders born or are they made? How often— I mean, do you have to practice leadership day in and day out? And when is it that you really get good at it?

Every day. Every day you can get better at it.

When do you master it?

Talk to any Talk to any master and, and they will tell you, you know, Yo-Yo Ma practices the cello 5 hours a day. He's already better than everybody else. And he, and he— Steph Curry, you know, spends hours a day in the gym shooting and then shooting baskets, and he already is better than lots of other people. So, you know, part of, part of what's said— there's an old frame about You know, you know, amateurs make it look hard and professionals make it look easy. And, and, and they, they make it look easy because in point of fact, they've, they practice it and they enjoy it and they, and they kind of continue, continue doing it. I think that when it comes to leadership is that there are every single day and, and really not, not unlike courage, every single day there are opportunities to exercise courage. There's a opportunities every single day to exercise, exercise leadership at. Too often, I think, courage or leadership, we think about them— can't make this big enough on the screen— about them as big kinds of things. But, but in point of fact, courage and leadership, you know, may happen when, you know, you, you, you stand up, you know, you, you speak out in a meeting, you, um, You know, you let somebody, you let somebody in on the traffic. You, you, you, you pick up, you know, you pick up some debris on the golf course, not because it's your job, but just because it's one of the, you know, because you believe that, that, that shouldn't have happened and you take responsibility.

Barry, God, I want more time with you. Leaders that have failed in the public's eye. I mean, we just had this CEO commit suicide, that CEO commits suicide, and it's hidden under some other ailment. Are they failing at leadership and therefore don't have a way of Coming back?

Well, there perhaps are greater mental health issues to talk about here than just about courage or leadership. This notion of bouncing forward is that I think that those who have been able to lead the most productive lives are those who are able to have a sense of perspective. There's a sense of understanding that like the baseball player, you don't hit 1,000. And so, I mean, I'll tell you for myself, it's easier to write about leadership than it is to do it. You know, I'm now chairing the Management Entrepreneurship Department, and I doubt whether the 45 people who are in that department all love me as much as they should. Uh, uh, and I, and, and I know that I'm not always as good as I should be or would like to be. Um, I think an important piece of all of this, you know, CB, the book, the book that I've always wanted to write and probably never will is a book on forgiveness, because I think that, that, that sense of grace is really important for us to be able to bounce forward, to be able to see that when we make— psychologists talk about it as psychological hardiness, the ability to somehow say, well, look, when these things don't work out the way that we thought, it's not necessarily personal. I didn't plan on— I didn't plan to be late for the meeting yesterday, and yet I was. And so I can either, I can either blame the traffic or I can accept responsibility for not leaving soon enough. And then, and then, and, and then try to learn from that experience so that next week I leave a little bit earlier so that I don't continually blame the traffic or somebody else. I take responsibility and then do something and do something about it. Because if I don't, then eventually other people lose their faith in me. You know, they, they believe that I can't, I can't, that I'm, that I'm not self-aware. Talk about kind of emotional intelligence. I'm not self-aware. I don't really know what's going on, and, and I'm not taking responsibility. Um, when we're trying to teach, you know, uh, uh, middle school age kids, high school kids about, about leadership elementary school on leadership. And they took, they took our book The Truth About Leadership, and they took all those— there's 10 of them. And so 10 months, kind of 10 months in the school year, they took each one of those principles. And they didn't talk about it, they didn't talk about it as, um, um, as, as Model the Way. They said, you know, uh, this month we're going to focus on setting an example. They didn't talk about encouraging the heart. They, they talked about, you know, uh, the principle that month was, uh, letting others know they're doing a good job. Um, so, you know, a large part of, if you will, learning leadership has to do with, with again understanding who you are and then kind of, and kind of then getting comfortable in that and then accepting responsibility. Accepting responsibility then leads to taking initiative. And certainly one of the most important characteristics of people that we know that have been courageous or have been leaders is that they, is that they took initiative. They were, they were typically not the first person to notice the problem or the issue, but they were one of the first people to actually be willing to do, to do something about it. And so it's, it's, it's, that's why, that's why I say there's no, there's no shortage of opportunities and leadership is, is, is in the moment. I said to you earlier that we started to write a book ourselves on courage, and so we took the same methodology and we asked people, so tell us about a time you've been courageous. And once again, everybody that we talked to could tell us about a time in which they believed that they acted courageously.

Uh-huh.

And they weren't again the big things. They were oftentimes You know, I think you talk about kind of, you know, micro kind of courage. Uh, they were, they were just a lot of, they were just a lot of the, the, the little things. Um, but they were the little things that mattered. Um, I spent, I spent a week at West Point, uh, trying to understand sort of, so how does the military go about training young men and women to be to be courageous. I mean, you know, to put their lives on the line.

Yeah.

You know, so my question was kind of, how do you teach courage? And I came away from that week realizing that in some ways you don't teach people to be courageous. You teach them to be successful, to be prepared so that when, when opportunity knocks, you know, when they have to go into battle, they don't have to somehow say, hmm, I wonder if I should be courageous here.

Yes.

You know, this is— the firefighter doesn't, you know, the paramedic, I mean, you know, gee, this person looks like they're dying, I wonder what I should do. Um, rather, that's what they— that's what they're— they've been trained to do, that they practice doing it. Um, in the classroom, we, you know, we practice, you know, we, you know, we practice. So here's here's a— here's an opportunity to think about, you know, what it means to color outside the lines, and how do you feel about it, and what helped and what didn't help in, in doing, in doing that. Or, um, so, so I think both, you know, courage, or, uh— We're, we're just writing— we're just— Jim and I are just, just beginning to write a second edition for a book we published almost 20 years ago called Encourage the Heart. And in the— one of the first things that we say is that, uh, encourage and courage have the same root of the word heart.

Yes, that's right.

And, uh, and, and, and, and then that's where it's— and that's where— and that's where it's got to come from.

So, Mary, thank you. Yes, it's been— I have so many more questions. I I hope you'll come back.

Sure. Sure, we can.

That's exactly what my husband said when I proposed to him. Sure.

What took you so long?

Barry, thank you so much for your wisdom and insight and for helping leaders become better leaders. helping leaders understand what's inside of them over so many years. Thank you.

My pleasure. Thanks for the opportunity to chat. And, you know, and like your husband, I'll keep coming back. So, okay. All right. All right. We'll see you now.

Okay, everybody. I'll see you next week. That's all I could say to end this wonderful conversation. And I won't say the end It's a series. Bye now.