182- Courage to Leap & Lead with Yosi Kossowsky, part 1

You've got courage to leap, courage to lead.

Be brave and be bold. Whoa, let it roar.

Welcome to the Courage to Leap and Lead podcast, where each of our guests share the stories of courage that helped them become powerful leaders. Before we start today's show, please remember to visit courage-consulting.com. Where you can find all the episodes and other excellent resources, all at courage-consulting.com. Now, here's your host, Leadership Courage Coach CB Bowman.

Hello, ladies and gentlemen. It is CB in Courage to Leap and Lead. So, you know, it's Tuesday. Because I'm always here for you on Tuesday. And today I have a guest who, complete transparency, is a member of my association, the Association of Corporate Executive Coaches. And of course, we only have the best coaches, coaches who are willing to go and can go and who are qualified to go toe-to-toe with anybody in the C-suite. And today we have a special guest who's coming to us from Israel, and I am so interested in what coaching is like in the C-suite in Israel. So may I present my friend, my colleague, Yossi. Yossi, welcome.

Thanks, CB. So happy to be here.

Great. So Yossi, first tell us, were you born in Israel?

Yep, I was born in Denver and grew up in the Denver area. I don't know how far from where you live, CB. But we were in the west side of Denver. And then in my, in my early teenage years, my mom moved to Israel, and I didn't initially go with her, finished off high school in the US, and then spent some time with my, with my dad who was living in South Africa, actually. And then moved to Israel and then went to university in New York, met my wife there. We moved to Maryland, had all of our kids in Maryland, and then moved to Israel in 2000, in late 2002.

Wow.

This much I did not know. First of all, what made you decide to move to Israel other than family being there?

Okay. So there were a couple of things that were happening in the United States in 2002. So it was post-9/11. I was living in the DC area and there was the DC sniper going on at the time. And in addition, when the market crashed, I got laid off from my job and Did get a severance package and my wife, we had 4 little kids, oldest was 7, youngest was 3 at the time. And we were just contemplating on like a reboot, you know, little did we know in 2002 that the world wasn't going crazy. It was just the starting of the crazy. But we were looking for being closer to family and we have quite a lot in Israel. And another thing that's kind of, I think, misunderstood is the quality of life in Israel is great. And the independence that the kids get is also amazing. And I grew up in Denver and we did lock our doors, but it was such an amazing place to grow up. My wife grew up in Montreal, also really laid-back place. And we were actually finding Maryland not to be as laid-back and we were looking for something that was more What we had grown up in, and we found it in Israel.

So you just threw out a whole lot that I need to ask about.

Okay.

Denver obviously was very different then than what it is now. Yeah. What was insane about Maryland other than the DC sniper? So.

There was a lot of pressure on parental supervision. So our kids were little, and taking them to the park or even having them play out front, in the front of your house, you always had to have a parent watching them. And there was a lot of concerns if parents weren't in, and even neighbors would kind of not directly threaten to call parental services, but it was just not acceptable to allow your kids to be running around. And that just didn't feel good.

That's interesting. I didn't know about that. You know, when I grew up, your kids were never in the house. They were outside playing with each other. You know, just now I'm an introvert, so I didn't experience that. I was always inside with my coloring book or a book reading, you know. But when in talking to my cousin before she passed, she said, yeah, you missed a lot. You know, we used to hang out together and, you know, formed, you know, lifelong friends. And I said, really? You know, now she did grow up in a different part of the United States than I did, but not far away. And I was stunned to hear about all of this. To me, growing up was 4 walls. You know, and I stayed within that. And I was, I was good with that.

I know, I love— I'm one of 4 boys. We're all close in age. And we would be outside all the time. Rain, snow. Yeah.

I can't even imagine that other than through other people's experiences. And Marilyn, I am absolutely stunned at that. Because can I ask how old you were?

Don't you dare ask me, but can I ask you how old am I now? You're asking me? Yeah, I am 55.

So we're talking about 50, 45 years ago.

Yeah, so I grew up in Denver in the '70s.

Okay, wow. Okay, and so now, now here comes the big questions, several. Why are we so misinformed about Israel as Americans? Because we, we only see it as a war-torn country.

You know, it's a fascinating thing. And I'm gonna— I think I'm probably going to maybe get some bleeps on your podcast from, from, from this. I have really come to an opinion.

So first of all, this podcast, we go real and we go deep, so you will not—

So I essentially have one guiding principle, which is do no intentional harm. And I don't know where I came up with it, but as long as I can remember, I've had this guiding principle. And I actually find that the media does intentional harm all the time. In my mind, I almost equate the media as evil. The— there is an option. Everybody has an option when reporting the news to be reporting facts versus opinion. And I don't know the motivation behind anybody who reports the news. But what I do see is not truth. And it's not only Israel, you know, reading the news about what's going on in the United States around the presidential stuff that's currently happening or around antisemitism is only partial information. Someone was telling me, actually a friend of mine in Denver, well, Colorado Springs, a couple of months ago there was like these Big rains that were happening, I think.

Big what?

Rains, rainfalls.

Yes, yes, yes.

And and and the and the news had reported that it was gonna be terrible. So this colleague of mine, she walked out of her house and she saw a whole bunch of people on their on her neighbor's lawn collecting debris and piling it there, and then filming it with a newscaster. Talking about how bad the weather was. But she saw them set the stage for what— to make it look like a disaster, but it wasn't. And that, that was in Colorado. So, you know, it's interesting that in this current state, for example, someone pointed out to me recently that you will never see, or you have to look really hard to find, a picture of The people in Gaza holding guns other than the Israelis. Now Israel's fighting a war, so who are they fighting a war with if nobody is shooting at them? And so I'm not saying that either side is not culpable and and and and and and things could be much better. But there's a dual story. And if we're only getting one side of any story, then we're not well informed.

Well, you've said a mouthful there, and you didn't say anything wrong. I remember when I was at the New School for Social Research, which is, I guess at the time it was considered a radical university. Because it taught you to think. And one of the exercises we had was to take several newspapers that had the same story headline, and one had to be a right-wing, one had to be a left-wing, and one had to be middle of the road. And just from the headline, You had as an assignment to talk about how it affected the minds of the reader. Same subject. Like, US meets with Israel. Israel is meeting with US. Why is Israel meeting with US? Why is US meeting? You know, it was just, it was all about a meeting. You know, no harm, no foul, but the twist of the type of newspaper you were reading led you down a different path.

Yep.

And I am convinced that it's like marketing. Good news doesn't sell. We want to live vicariously, and vicariously means living in safety through somebody else that is not experiencing the same thing that you're experiencing. And that's what sells. Because I have seen, like, you know, on the radio or even in the marketing industry, when moms were saying, you're putting too much sugar in cereal, we want plain cereal, we want healthy cereal. And I was working at a company that produced food, and we would produce cereal like that, and it would not sell at all. It didn't taste good. So you had to go back to the old with sugar, this and this and this, and then you get the complaints again. So you say to yourself, which is it?

Right.

And even if you just look at the weather report, Here in Colorado, it's like doom and gloom. You know, the snow is coming. The hail is coming. The hail is the size of golf balls. Blah blah blah blah blah. And I'm looking out my window, and I see sunshine. So where is this? Oh, it's in the foothills. Well, then they show a picture of the foothills, and it's sort of dark and gloomy. And I know you know you could change photography so that it looks. I mean, look what's on TV. You look at FBI versus, I don't know, some comedy show, and look at the difference on how it's filmed, right?

Right.

It's filmed to be dark and dreary and foreboding, right?

Yeah.

And so the same thing happens with world news.

Right.

I mean, I know that there's parts of the world that expect that we still have cowboys and Indians. Right? Because that's what they're seeing.

100%. I remember when— so visiting my dad in South Africa, everybody thought that I was visiting the monkeys. And, you know, there was regular houses and cars and streets and roads. And it is It is the idea of perception becomes our reality.

Well said. Well said. Even I, when I was traveling a lot, and for example, when I landed in Italy to see the Colosseum and I saw it was in the middle of a highway, I thought, well, that's not the Colosseum. It's supposed to have, you know, land around it, no people around it. But here's what's interesting. When I was younger and I went to England and you saw Buckingham Palace, it was isolated. There was nothing around it. You had these roads far away that led out in like a radius, and it was just breathtaking. Fast forward to 2018 when I went to England, and I went— I said to my husband, let's go to Buckingham Palace. It was surrounded by Apartments, houses. The park had shrunk around the palace to like almost nothing. And I'm like, wow, I'm so disappointed. Now, which is the reality?

Right.

They were both realities. It was just different times, you know. But what would the news report?

Right.

What's coming? What they see.

And, you know, we have this challenge, which is what we perceive becomes our reality, and then we build on our expectations, right? And, and where we run into friction is that gap between what we're expecting and then what we experience.

Yes, exactly.

Right? You're telling me what you expected Based on your history of Buckingham Palace, and then you experience this new thing and there's disappointment. Why?

Yeah, because in my mind, the palace is supposed to be grandiose for miles and miles and sit on this beautifully manicured lawn the way it was. Right before I went, I didn't have any expectations other than it was a palace, so it's gonna be big.

Right.

And when I went and it was confirmed in my mind, not only was it big and awesome, it sat on magnificent manicured huge lawns and there were teeny little shops off the way. That, that I could buy. But when I went there the last time in '18, I'm like, yeah, this is not it. What a destruction. They destroyed this. I'm up in arms about it. My reality had changed. So to that point, so now I was going to ask you a very naive question, and now I don't know how I can ask it. I always wondered, with you being in Israel, how could you be an executive coach in a war-torn country? And now I'm hearing something completely different.

Yeah. It's, it's not a war-torn country. I would say emotionally, it is heart-wrenching. And it's heart-wrenching because of the things that we're talking about, our hopes, our desires, Our expectations, and the challenge of will and want. And when we want a reality, and that reality is not available to us, what do we do with it? And so some people shut up, you know, shut up, and then they just take what they're getting.

Right.

Some people make up a new reality. Some people fight it. And as a Westerner growing up in the United States, not even realizing it, I was taught the rule of compromise. You're not gonna always get what you want, right? As a little kid, you want a toy, you know, you can't always get that toy. You have to learn to share. You have to learn to do those things. And when I first came here and was trying to really understand why is there such conflict in this region, I read some, some information by, by some Palestinian scholars who explained that they're looking back at the history that the mindset of the local people that were here was they were being invaded. And it was not an option to compromise. The answer was no. And at every opportunity to compromise and say, okay, so this is now our reality is that there's other people here. Who I don't want them. Regardless, forget biblical facts or data, right? Data that we say, okay, you know, who, who, who was here when? If you just look at modern history, if you have one side that's willing to compromise and one side that's not willing to compromise, then you're never going to get agreement. And that's the challenge, is I don't think that Westerners understand a Middle East mindset. I don't think I fully understand a Middle East mindset. I'm really going off of what I've read by other experts. And, and that's, and that's a challenge. And so that's really heartbreaking because History has shown that, you know, Jews were living in Europe, and, and that became a very unsafe experience. And so they looked for a homeland. They came here based on the belief of, of, you know, of their biblical heritage. And again, was met with a great deal of resistance, but with nowhere else to go, then They settled and they fought for it with the hope that there would be a way to coexist. And I think that that still is the challenge. And I have never met, honestly, a person that I'm working with here who wants to fight, who wants to go to war, who wants to send their children to war. I just know people who want to live a life, go to, you know, do their day job, make the money, come home, be with their family. And that is not easily available.

So let me ask you a whole bunch of naive questions as we go along. Is it safe to talk about things that you disagree with in terms of religion? There?

Sure.

Okay.

Israel is a full democracy. So there's complete freedom of speech. You can naysay the prime minister. You can— anything that you can do in the US in terms of saying your opinion, writing it, publishing it, there's complete freedom, complete freedom for women, complete freedom for, for everybody. And In our— in the region, that is a very rare thing.

And is it, um, is it like here in the United States when you go into what's called the ghetto? The ghetto is a pocket, but outside that ghetto is what we feel is safety and richness. So is the war zone like a ghetto? Is it like a— you know what I'm trying to say?

Yeah. So, okay, so before the war, before October 7th, there are areas that are Palestinian areas. And it has never been safe for a Jew to go into those areas. So there's big red signs that say, don't go here. And any Jew that has wandered into those areas rarely comes out. On the other hand—

And how big are those areas?

Yeah, you'd have to look at a map. I don't know the measurements of those areas. But there's what's called the West Bank, which is funny because it's not Israel's West Bank. Israel's East Bank. It's called the West Bank because it was the West Bank of Jordan. And all the people living there were, I guess, Jordanians. And then there was the war in, I think, '67 or whatever, and Israel captured that land, and it was still called the West Bank. So there's that area, and then there's the Gaza Strip, which was at the founding of the State of Israel part of Egypt, that when Egypt attacked Israel, Israel won that strip of land. So there's these 2 areas, and again, it's not a straight line. It's like a crooked line if you look at a map. And so you could easily drive into, into one of those areas and It is not safe for, for an Israeli or a Jewish person to go there. On the other hand, there is no— I have never met an Arab or Palestinian that said that they did not feel safe coming into Israel. Walking around, going into the supermarkets or the malls or whatever. So that was before the war. Since the war, nothing has changed except for in the Gaza Strip. And I've only seen pictures. I haven't gone there directly. Obviously, there's been a great deal of physical destruction that has been occurring for Israel to uncover all of the tunnels which have been used completely for terrorist activities. And because they're deep underground, getting to them has been quite a challenge. But that's what ultimately needs to be sealed up so that The events that occurred on October 7th can't easily reoccur. So I would say that nobody probably goes who's not either living in the Gaza Strip or the army goes into Gaza right now. And, and I imagine that won't change until the war is completed. Hopefully soon.

Okay, now I need to ask you a really ignorant question.

You—

not you— a Jewish person walks into the Gaza Strip or other areas that have red flags. How do they know that you're Jewish? You don't have a different skin color.

So, well, first of all, Middle Eastern people are usually darker than me. I mean, I'm white, white. So I would stand out. But also, I think you would have to be able to prove that you're either somebody with the press or, or no. And I don't think you can naturally walk into those areas without it being arranged.

But, but how do they know? I mean, for all intents and purposes, you are both white. Right.

So I honestly, I don't, I don't know the answer. Unfortunately, I do have people that I knew who accidentally went. I know a family that accidentally went in and, and, and they were in a car and the car was shot up and a few of them were killed. So I don't actually know how—

Was there a tag on the car that said I'm Jewish.

So, so the license plates are different. The license plates for people in the Palestinian areas are different than the license plates of people in Israel. So that's one, obviously, way to know. However, Israeli Arabs have Israeli license plates. So I don't really know what's the method that it would be detected.

So for all intents and purposes, if a Jewish person walked into these areas and Didn't say anything and just walked around and walked out, nobody would know.

I guess I've never heard of a success story.

So, yeah, the reason why I'm asking this is I'm comparing it obviously to here in the United States. People know I'm Black. I mean, there's no doubt about it, right? And I'm proud of it. But I mean, if I was to walk into like the Appalachian Trails or something, it would be pretty obvious that I probably wasn't born there. And, you know, so on and so forth. So I've always wondered if people, quote unquote, look alike, what's the telltale evidence that says, we don't want you here?

It's a good question. And I would be speaking out of ignorance if I tried to guess without Looking it up.

Okay, so this this red line. This fascinates me for this red space that says don't go here. What if you're a little child and you cross that line? What happens then?

Happened.

A little child can't read or. You know, may not really.

So first of all, there's— I think that for the most part there's fences around the area.

Okay.

So I don't think it's a wandering area. However, there have been many, and I am saying unfortunately, many reported cases of children, um, because— so Israel doesn't really have contiguous cities, right? They've got a city and then it's Barren a little bit, and then there's cities and barren in between. So there's a lot of nature where people can walk. And where I'm currently living, I think it's pretty safe. Not a lot of stories or news about people disappearing. But in, in, in there are areas of what I consider Israel that a lot that are also called occupied territories that Um, you have to be careful if you are not in your city, uh, and you go wandering. Um, you, you, you might be set upon and not come home. And that has happened many times.

Hmm. What— tell me, in Israel In the area that you're in, are the challenges for an executive coach— the challenges for the clients is what I mean— the same as they are here in the United States?

I think by far and large, yes, in the sense that we are all facing the human condition. I think that people are very adaptable. So we get used to whatever environment we, we, you know, are sitting in. There's, there's, I think, cultural mindsets that are different between Americans and Israelis.

Like what?

But then again, so I think by far, once again, I'm making, you know, an overall statement, so it's not going to apply to everybody. So Israelis grow up, there's mandatory national service, whether it's army or volunteering.

That's for men and women?

For men and women. And so when you hit 18, you all of a sudden get exposed to a reality that I never was exposed to growing up in the United States.

Are your children Cypriots? Faced with dealing with this?

Maybe they all did. My children now are all over the age of 20. They all went through either the Army or national service. I see.

Okay.

And my kids that were in the Army saw real action. My kids that did national service, you could do lots of things in national service. They worked. One of my daughters worked with cancer patients, and the other one worked in a kids' ER. And at the age of 18, they were really exposed to life in, in, in its full breadth. And I was always amazed at how they dealt with it and their resilience. So people here grow up with a, with a level of resilience that wasn't— I wasn't called upon to, to, to develop early on. And it, it builds, I find, overall a tougher outside shell. And so there's, there's a mindset that gets shaped about decision-making, about the speed at which you need to act and respond. And I don't know why this kind of came along with it, but there's also a mindset of If I don't do it for myself, then I might get taken advantage of. So the often the idea of coaching in Israel is, is, I think, met not with the same level of openness as I would find in the US. There, because of that toughness and that self-resist, that self Preservation. Preservation and responsibility. So people are not necessarily by default thinking, oh, I need to get a mirror, I need to get advice, and of that nature.

So what time— sorry, I keep interrupting. It's so fascinating. What type of executive coaching— I'm debating whether to say issues or opportunities— do you face, do leaders face there?

So what's interesting is I don't actually find the challenges and the opportunities that much different. The biggest challenge that I find with almost everybody that I coach is perception.

Tell me more.

And what I mean by that is I don't understand the, the brain science behind our inclination and our desire to assume motivation and reasoning for other people, but I see it Everywhere, everywhere that I coach, whether it's US, England, Germany, India, is the assuming intent, assuming I understand the other person's reasoning and motivations. So it has a cultural, you know, flavor to it here. But I see it in the US as well. And, you know, you can imagine You know, I guess I'll ask you the question is, have you ever had somebody do that for you? Which is, you did something, they saw your actions, and then they made the assumption about what your motivation was?

Absolutely. All the time.

How often are they right?

And it makes me so angry.

How often are they right?

Well, of course, I'm going to be biased, but I'd say never.

Never. Okay.

Or so, if I'm really fair, maybe 1% of the time. Wow.

So that's pretty low still. So now the challenge of our perception is once we have determined a reasoning, then that all of a sudden shapes the way we see the world, the way we consider our options on how we interact and interface with people and what we do.

Sure.

So if I am making an assumption about you, based on something that I saw but don't really understand, and then I want to approach you about it, I am not approaching you open-minded. I'm approaching you with the preset story and idea about what— why you did what you did, and that's how I'm going to talk to you. So that plays out the same. What's a little different is The energy behind it. The US is very deeply ingrained in customer support, customer service attitude. You walk into a store—

Oh, no, they're not. No, I disagree with you there.

All right.

Gosh. I would say there are a few companies that hold that mantra. But for the most part, and sadly, we have lost that, that old expression, the customer's always right.

Gone, huh?

Gone with almost mom's fresh-made homemade apple pie.

That's sad. So maybe it's, maybe it's less different than I would imagine.

I can think of only 2 brands Off the top of my head that outwardly express that. One is Apple, and the second is Costco. And that's not necessarily in order.

Right. Okay. I was more referring to when you walk into the supermarket, if people are pleasant.

And No, no. Okay, define pleasant to me, because my, my interpretation of pleasant is customer-oriented. In other words, if I say to you, where do you have this item in the store and where is it? Please don't say to me it's over there.

Okay.

say to me, we have it in Section 4, and let me take you to it.

Okay. So no, that's not— that's rarely happening here too. I think that it used to happen to me in the United States. So I guess what I experienced here is more because of that That tough exterior is often on display. And so it can often come out with that tough exterior. Now, what's—

Is it— it's more of a matter of figuring it out myself?

So it is figuring it out yourself, but it's more about, you know, I'm never going to escape being an American by nature or by culture, growing up most of my life there. And so when I'm here, I always recognize that tough exterior as being not the same as me. But my kids, on the other hand, who did grow up here, I think that tough exterior is just natural. They see it and they don't respond to it differently.

I hear what you're saying. Yeah. Right.

So when I'm coaching in the US, um, it's not that there's not resistance to self-awareness, um, but the way that someone will offer that resistance is more soft. And here it gets— it's often received more brusquely, right?

Yes, I, I understand what you're saying. When I first started traveling outside of the United States, I think I experienced culture shock in every country I went to. And I'm like, wow, that's interesting. That's not how it's done in the United States. But I— and I get it because just even— I was just talking about this, moving from New York, New Jersey area to Colorado. I had culture shock because I'm not used to people saying, how's your day going? Any plans for the rest of the day? Plans for the weekend? Did you have a great holiday? I'm like, what the crap is this? Now it's like if somebody doesn't say it to me, I'm like, don't you care how my weekend went? Because in New York, New Jersey, you don't ask that kind of question. It's like considered rude almost.

I remember when I was when I was almost 20. So I was living in the New York area, and I went back to Denver to visit, to visit family. And I'm walking through the airport, and I'm like, all of a sudden realizing that I am flying ahead of everybody else, just walking. And I'm like, what is going on? And I realized I was doing my New York walk, and everybody else was doing the Denver walk.

Yes. I remember when I was— I I knew the manager at Costco pretty well in New Jersey, because that Costco was near me, and I told him I was moving here, and he said, CB, one piece of advice: be quiet and relax. And I said, why? I'm not loud. He said, by Colorado standards. Just chill out. And I— now I understand exactly what he meant. And it took me a long time to get used to it. I mean, 4 years and I'm still trying to get used to it. It's like, I don't get it. I will go into a store and see lines from the front to the back. And they have like 2 registers open. And I'm having a cow immediately. Where's the manager? Manager, do you see what's going on here? Will you please bring people up? Other people will stand there. Oh, how's your day going? I'm like, the clock is ticking. Let's go.

Yeah.

So I understand what you're saying about the differences and the unique qualities of different cultures. Right. For you, when you were terminated, was it in— from your position, was it in Israel or here in the United States?

So I've been terminated 3 times, so it depends on which position you're—

I'm way ahead of you. Way ahead of you. Yes. Were you ever terminated from a position in Israel? versus terminated from position here in the United States? And was there a difference?

Yeah, funny enough, there is actually a difference. And, and it shows up in lots of interesting ways. So this is where Israel flips to the other side. When you are experiencing a tough time, whether or not it's by life or by design, like being laid off, Israelis get really all parenty-like and they're like taking care of you and HR comes and says, listen, we're sorry this is happening. How can we help you? How can we support you? And there's a lot of reach out when things happen here, where when I was laid off in the States, it was just by the book. You know, you sign your things, see you later. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Yes, yes.

So that's— it's, it's, it's one of these really interesting things. Like, if anyone's ever stuck on the side of the road or stopped, people will— tons of people will just pull over and find out how they can help. If you know, the things that I kind of grew up like this in Denver where If there's somebody crossing the road and they look like they're struggling with a package, you know, people will run across and see, how can I help you?

Yes. Yeah, yeah.

And so that happens here regularly.

You know, as you said that, I am remembering when I lived in New York and a neighbor of mine lost her husband, and she was Jewish. And I said to her, how can I help? And she said, I'm good. People in my synagogue come and take care of me. And I said, what? Yes, they bring me meals. They take, take me out. They take— I'm like, really? I was stunned. It's that, that taking care of each other.

Right.

That is important. And I wonder if that's because Traditionally, if you come from an area of conflict, you value life differently.

Yeah. So again, the roots of it, I'm not 100% sure. I will say that the play out in today is the same. Judaism is very deeply ingrained in charity, like Christianity. And so There are always causes that people are donating for. If anyone is sick, like, you know, in our neighborhood, if somebody is sick and somebody finds out, like, all of a sudden there's a whole WhatsApp group that gets created. How do we provide meals and support for this person?

Yes. Yeah.

Right. And if God forbid it's worse, like you, you lose somebody, it's, it's even more so like everyone kind of like pounces on it.

I gotta try. They started trying to fix her up with other men. I'm like, whoa, ho, this is a system.

It's a system.

Yes. So tell me, how did you start your own company? You are one of the most successful executive coaches I know.

Thank you.

How did this all happen? And did it happen while you were— did it start when you were here in the United States? What triggered it?

So the story is kind of interesting. So I started off my career in IT and technology and then did a very brief role in sales and then switched to an engineering—

I knew it. I knew it. Okay, go ahead. Yeah. Yeah.

And then switched to an engineering job. And it was in that role Then I started getting feedback when I started, um, doing a team lead role that I wasn't doing a great job on the people side. And I thought I was great with people. I thought I was intuitive, insightful, great communicator. And the feedback I was getting was not in lockstep with that.

Um, I'm stunned.

Well, Me too. And so my, my, my, my, my technical brain said I need to do root cause analysis on human behavior. I need to understand what's the mechanics of the people, of the brain. And that led me, in short, to study neuroscience and emotional wellness therapy. And that taught me a lot about triggers, response, reactions, perception, the fallacy of communication happening and being understood. Um, what, what is— what, what in the sense of the systems triggers conflict, triggers the, the biochemistry of, you know, of stress, uh, cortisol and stuff of that nature. And I was fascinated and I was informed. And so now when I started interacting with people, I was much more aware of What were my triggers? What were my motivators? And being really aware of what I said to you before, which is that I really didn't know what anybody else was thinking or motivated by. And so that really triggered curiosity in me to be wanting to understand why did you, you know, act that way or show up that way or respond that way. And that started really changing my whole set of dynamics. Uh, and that's what led me to ultimately get—

Hold up, hold up. Okay, I just realized we're running over an hour, so I'm going to break and continue. Ladies and gentlemen, stay tuned for part 2 of my interview with Yossi.