190- Courage to Leap & Lead with Vered Kogan, part 1

You've got courage to leap, courage to lead.

Be brave and be bold.

Whoa, let it roar. Welcome to the Courage to Leap and Lead podcast, where each of our guests share the stories of courage that helped them become powerful leaders. Before we start today's show, please remember to visit courage-consulting.com. Where you can find all the episodes and other excellent resources, all at courage-consulting.com. Now here's your host, Leadership Courage Coach CB Bowman.

Hello everybody, it is Tuesday and it is Courage to Leap and Lead with CB Bowman, and I have Oh, gosh, I say this every week, a special guest. But you know what? The truth is, all my guests are special. And I have a lady today who's going to talk about mindset shifting, but not just in the normal way, in a special way. So let me introduce Vered. Did I pronounce your name correctly, Vered?

You did. Vered Kogan. That's right.

Okay, great. Very. Um, there are a lot of people dealing in the mind shift space now, and I'm not sure that people really know what mind shift means. Can you give us a great definition for it?

Yeah, absolutely. So a mindset is a belief, essentially. It's a feeling that we have about something that we're certain about, that we believe is absolutely true, right? Like, let's say somebody may have a mindset, a belief that the sun's going to come up tomorrow. Yeah, because they've had a lot of evidence proving that that is true. That is a program. Yes, it's something that they just automatically assume or expect to be true.

Mhm.

So that is a mindset. So now, a mind shift Is where we essentially shift our mindset. Yes, that is my interpretation of mind shift. Of course, it's just a word like anything else. But for me, mind shift means a breakthrough, a shift in a way of thinking that challenges our beliefs, because our beliefs oftentimes were formed at a very young age when we didn't consciously choose them. And so, you know, there were events that happened. We made certain decisions in those moments about ourselves, whether we're, you know, good enough, worthy enough, you know, we're, you know, you know, beliefs about our health, beliefs about our ability to reach our potential, and so on. And those decisions that were made oftentimes in very early childhood, sometimes even in the womb, are carried forward in our life unless we pause to challenge those.

Are you saying that we make decisions in the womb?

Yes. Yes, I am saying that certain feelings are felt and certain decisions are made. Correct. And sometimes that is even intergenerational. So what do I mean by that? So sometimes we carry these mindsets, these programs from previous generations Um, that have not, uh, released that program, that have not come to completion, uh, on that. And so what we call legacy burdens or intergenerational trauma, um, uh, is, um, something that is carried epigenetically.

Wow. Okay. So I, I don't even know how to process that. So I'm in the womb and I am making decisions.

So your unconscious mind, the— that part of you that essentially runs and preserves your body, um, helps you to stay alive, um, it has, uh, recorded every single event that you've ever experienced. Uh, it's like a recording device. That is why in hypnosis— I'm a board-certified hypnotherapist, and I use many modalities for very quick transformational change because we go to the unconscious system. We work with that protective system. So yes, in the womb, we— or during birth or after— we make certain decisions, and those decisions get— if our unconscious mind accepts them to be true, they get anchored in a way because it takes energy for the body to create new programs. And so what happens is that then we take those, uh, mindsets, those beliefs, and we, uh, put on a lens, almost like a pair of glasses or binoculars, through which we see the world filtered by those beliefs. So if someone has a belief that they are not smart enough, let's just say, because maybe they were in first grade and some kid made a comment, and so in that moment that little kid didn't have the resources to express what they needed to express, you know, stand up for themselves or self-regulate their body. So they made a decision, I am not smart, or I am stupid, or whatever. And so if their unconscious mind accepted that to be true, they're going to go through life looking at events in their life through that lens. So if, let's say, they don't get an A on a math test, you know, the next week, oh, it's because I'm not smart enough, or I'm stupid, right? And then fast forward to, you know, dating in high school, somebody doesn't want to date them. Oh, it's because I'm not smart enough, right? They don't get into the car. It's because I'm not smart enough. So that program grows and grows and grows. And then what happens is that it dictates all of their decisions. They may not even apply to jobs or to opportunities that require them to, to maybe take certain courses or to, to think, you know what I mean, to, to have more of an analytical ability because they believe that they're not smart enough, right? Maybe they're at a networking event and they may feel shy and not want to talk to people, or think that people may not want to be with them because they're not smart enough, right? You can see how that could play out and essentially limit them from opportunities in their life. So in terms of creating change in our life, you know, getting what it is that we want, it's really important to pause and say, what, what are my beliefs about this? And where do these beliefs even come from? And to challenge those beliefs. Because the reality is that any belief that is limiting us, that is creating a negative emotion, is not actually true.

Okay. You've given us a whole lot that we need to unpack here.

Of course.

So let me think about where to start. Let's start with the sun setting. We know that the sun sets. Are you saying that we should challenge something as I'm gonna say the word concrete as the sun setting, that our mindset is making stuff up.

I'm saying that we wanna challenge, um, any beliefs that may be limiting us from what we want. So I might not challenge that belief because for what purpose? Right?

Right.

But let's say I wanted to learn a new language and I had a belief that I'm not smart enough or that it's gonna be hard for me to learn another language. that's when I want to challenge that. Now, let me give you an example.

Mm-hmm.

So a couple of weeks ago, my family was in Colombia for a family vacation, and we had the special opportunity to visit with a gentleman from an indigenous tribe in the Tayrona National Park there. They have 4 indigenous tribes that essentially live off the grid. And it was a special opportunity because we got to meet with somebody who also is a medical-trained doctor. Yes, he is. And so we, we asked him some, some questions through an interpreter about their beliefs. And, and one of them was, what if, let's say, there's somebody who is ill and they need antibiotics, let's just say, right? And yet the chief of the tribe says, nope, we're not doing that because they trust the, the head of the tribe.

Mm-hmm.

And, and a child or an elderly person, somebody passes away for that reason, right? Because that has happened. They've described that type of situation. And I said, well, you know, what happens in that case? That must be tremendous grief. They must be really angry with themselves that they didn't accept the medication. And what I was told is that they don't grieve. The people in this tribe do not grieve. Why? Because they truly believe that there is no death. It's just a transition to another form. So from the moment that they are born, just like we are taught the sun is rising and so we see that, right? They are taught there is no death. So somebody passes away, they have a ceremonial burial as a community, and then the spouse or the parents, they move on, uh, with the support of the community. But there is no crying and grief because There's nothing to cry about. So it's a completely different belief system. But because it was introduced to them, you know, pre-birth, it was epigenetic. They've believed that for many, many, many centuries, that it's so deeply ingrained that that is how they process information.

Right?

So there's no reason to feel a negative emotion if there's no loss.

So you're stunning me because I usually am not speechless, but you're giving me so much to think about. So let me just ask you this. If you were born, for example, into a family of poverty, Mm-hmm. in the womb, would your— would that poverty affect how you come out and interact with the world before you even know what the word poverty means?

I will say maybe. Of course, it depends on the situation. So what do I mean by that? A lot of it depends on how the mother feels. So if there's a lot of stress, that gets carried to the baby. Of course, those chemicals get carried to the baby. Also, from an epigenetic perspective and a cultural perspective, let's say the child lives in poverty in, let's say, an African nation where there is deep scarcity. Yes, there is true poverty for many generations, and the belief was in the culture that we don't have enough.

Mhm.

Um, then chances are that that child will grow, you know, will, will, um, uh, be birthed into that mindset. Now we have willpower, we can choose. That child can choose to reject that and say, that is not going to be me. However, that is more difficult to do because the momentum, the energetic momentum, is toward that belief. Yes. So they're gonna have to have either a really strong desire for overcoming that mindset, or, or maybe proof that it's possible. Maybe have a visitor into the village, let's just say, who's been able to overcome that, and they say, oh, they could do it. So then it births a program in their mind that says, maybe I can do it too. Right? But chances are, if it's not already existent, yes, in their external world, nobody has done, let's say, in this case, overcoming poverty or whatever it is that they wish to do, then they'd have to create that program for themselves to be able to do that. And it is possible through visualization and conditioning, reprogramming the mind. That's what I teach, how to do that, because I teach leaders, when you don't have certainty, that what you want, the change initiatives that you want are going to work, or that you're going to achieve your objectives because there are a lot of unknowns. How do you create certainty within? How do you create that sense of 100% certainty where you release the doubt even if the change hasn't happened yet? How do you do it within? Reprogram yourself so that you can then speak more confidently. You're radiating that confidence to others and they believe that it's true, even again, if they don't yet have the evidence in the external world. that it's true.

So what is it that you can do to change this mindset?

Yeah, many things. So first of all, I'll start by saying it is possible at any age. So we know from neuroplasticity that we can change essentially the brain. The brain is malleable. It's plastic. It can evolve and change, meaning that we can reprogram any belief that is no longer serving us, no matter how long We've had it, even if it's for our entire life. It is absolutely possible. And using certain techniques, it's possible to do it in about 10 minutes.

Get out of here.

No, absolutely true. Using techniques like timeline therapy and other modalities where we work with the unconscious mind, it is absolutely possible. Yeah, because we're going to the root, the first time that that person made that decision. And the moment that the unconscious mind gets the learning, the positive learning, the fact that they'll be safe if they let that decision go, if they Let that burden go, then the protective system will, will give permission to release it. Um, and that's where we have an integration of parts, if you will, inside of us.

This sounds very suspicious to me.

That's a belief.

Ah, I've been busted. But seriously, so, so how do you start Because it relates very much to courage, right? Having the courage to start to change your mindset. So where do you start if you can't afford somebody with your skills, which are massive? Can you do this by yourself?

Yeah, you absolutely can. So, um, uh, you know, you absolutely can if you're willing to make the effort to do, to do the work. So let me explain, because it takes intention and attention to reprogram. Now, sometimes I, I say, you know, sometimes there's a major event that happens in our life that really shakes us up, and, and there's an immediate belief change. Um, you know, there's just so much momentum for change that the body says, all right, I'm, I'm going to let this go, um, you know, in, in pursuit of, of a new belief. Um, that can happen, right? I'll give you an example of that. So my grandparents were smokers for many, many, many years. And when my eldest daughter Maya was, I wanna say, maybe 3 or 4, I don't know, young, young age, I remember visiting in Israel. And, you know, and they had, you know, of course, the smoking is related to beliefs, right? They had a certain dependency on and so on. And she, we had trained her, you know, that smoking is bad. And so I remember she walked into the kitchen and she said to my grandparents, she said she saw them smoking. She said, you're going to die.

Oh my God.

And she started crying like, I don't want you to die. I don't want you to die. I mean, it was just a child response having believed, right? That was her belief that smoking can cause death.

Which is true.

We wired that in. But I guess we mentioned smoking is bad. And so she somehow got that and they stopped smoking. That was it. They immediately, years of smoking, just Cold turkey. That was it. Never had another cigarette.

Out of the mouths of babes. Yeah.

Because it was so— it had so much meaning to them.

Yes.

So anytime we have an intense emotional event, you know, with intense emotions, like very positive or negative emotions, either way, the body is in a place of choice. Right? It shakes us up and it releases us, at least momentarily, from the attachment to the old program. It interrupts the old circuits.

How did you get into this?

Happy to answer that. And if you want later on to go back to how do we do this, because I didn't actually—

I do, I do. But I am fascinated by anyone who challenges beliefs, mindsets, and says, snap, we can make the change.

Yeah.

I want to learn from.

So, so I'll first answer your question very quickly about how did this start for me personally, and then, and then I'll redirect to how people can do it. So for me, the, the big introduction into the world of mindset was when, when Maya, the same daughter that I spoke about a moment ago, when she was in 7th or 8th grade, Her English teacher said to them, you know, I'm gonna give you extra credit if you watch a TED Talk with your parents. And that—

What grade?

She was in middle school, 7th or 8th.

Okay.

She's almost 23 now. Yeah.

Okay.

So really wise teacher for doing this because she got the fact that the parents need to get this more than the children because parents have a huge impact on the mindset of their children.

Yes.

So, um, the, the TED Talk was about growth and fixed mindset. It was based on Carol Dweck's work, which is fantastic work. Uh, there's a book that she wrote called, uh, Mindset: The New Psychology of Success. It's fantastic. Um, and, and so I watched that TED Talk and I went, oh my gosh, like, this is it. Because I'd already been coaching for a few years, but I never really thought so much about beliefs. Um, so then I, uh, did a some more work on this. I spoke with the International Coach Federation about concept of mindset and then went and got highly trained. So I became a, a trainer of neuro-linguistic programming, which took, you know, several years. I, you know, got trained, certified in many modalities for, for rapid change, of course, like hypnotherapy, timeline therapy, EFT tapping, Havening techniques, Psych-K, rapid transformational therapy, and the list goes on and on. So now that was the beginning of it for me, Because it had such a, uh, such clarity, right? It's intuitive guidance where oftentimes when we feel something, right, it's like, uh, it's almost like those goosebump kind of moments where it's like, you know, it's divinely guided. It's like, Vered, pay attention, there's something here for you. And I thankfully listened to that intuition, and it led to a beautiful path, um, of, you know, that led to our conversation today. So now, um, going back to how do we do this? When we talk about belief change, first of all, we want to have goals in mind because—

All right, I want to interrupt you because I want to come back, but you're, you're triggering so many questions. Why is mindset change and the investigation of neuropsychology so prevalent today? It's like all of a sudden it's sprung up like the new thing and everybody is doing it. Everybody's talking about it. You know, I'm talking, when I say everybody, I mean professionals. There are so many people that are focused in mindset. Clearly not all are as accomplished as you are, but why this, this big focus on mindset itself and then the shift of it? What triggered this?

Because we know that lasting, you know, sustainable positive change requires a shift in the level of consciousness, in the kind of unconscious system, because we're— there's a kind of a collection of parts, if you will, that each of us are made up of. We have our own kind of true self, which is this kind of higher part of us, this all-loving part of us, and there we have different parts. So we've got parts of us that maybe made certain decisions when we were little, like the example that I mentioned about the little kid that felt not smart enough. Or let's say if a teacher made a comment when someone speaks in class, and then the little kid decides, I'm not, you know, I can't speak in public, or I'm not a good public speaker, or something like that. The idea here is we've got this collection of parts that are essentially frozen in time at different ages. That is who you are. That's who I am. I have a collection of parts. There are many variants If you will, that are active right now, if you will. Some, some not, some are active, but they're there. Um, and, uh, and they are essentially driving my life. So if I wanted, um, the courage to do something, okay, so I'll give you an example. Back to Colombia. So, uh, we were doing some rappelling, um, you know, rappelling when you go down a mountain and, you know.

Yeah, that's why my eyes are wide.

Yes.

Like, are you crazy?

Yes, a little bit. Yes, my husband's the crazy one. I'm crazier For following along. Uh, so the— so we were kind of doing 4 different segments. The 4th segment was a 90-foot, almost 100-foot drop, um, and there's a waterfall, right? So it's slippery as you're trying to go down, right? You can't even see the bottom, you know, because of the trees. And so you're at some point, you can't see the people at the top and you can't see the person at the bottom. You're, you're on your own. So there was a lot of fear. So I'm sharing this because In that moment, there were parts of me that were like, go very that you can do this, right? You you've overcome other things, other fears. You've rocked on fire. You've done da da da da, right? I've repelled before. I've done other things. And then there were other parts of me, CB, that were like, no way, Jose. Not doing this. Not happening. But there was no choice, first of all, because you know there was no other way down, you know. But in addition to that, like there were there was this fierce battle. Literally, I was like, I was shaking. And so I had to go inward and be with my inner system. I literally connected with those parts. I said, all right, what's happening? What am I scared of? Okay, I'm scared I'm gonna die. I'm scared.

That would be real. Yes.

I'm gonna— all this stuff, right? And then I had to essentially calm my body. So I got coherent and I spoke just like a, a, a very loving kind of parent to these parts. And I said, you're gonna be all right. You know, you're not going to die from this. There's the security rope and blah, blah, blah, blah, right? There's, you know, there's all these measures and you've got support and all of these kinds of things. And I calm myself down and then I was able to get the courage to do it. So the idea here is that we've got these different parts, CB. And so going back to why is everybody talking about this? Because for us to create lasting change, these protective parts of us need to, to, to know that we'll be safe. Otherwise, we may make a change and then like a rubber band revert right back, right? We may lose the weight and then plop it, you know, get it back. Or we may make a change in our career and we'll find ourselves in the same type of situation, you know, different team, different boss, but essentially the same situation. Same thing in relationships. So sustainable change comes from knowing what we want, having clarity about what we want and why it's meaningful to us, like what emotions we're going to feel when we achieve it, and releasing any resistance to those changes. So if, let's say, I want a new job and I have some parts of me that are holding on to extreme beliefs that say I'm too old, or it's going to take too long, or what if I fail, or what if I do get the job and then, you know, I won't have time for my family or something, right? Like kind of a fear of success, or I'm not worthy. of, of, you know, having good things or of abundance in my life. If I have some parts that are holding on to those burdens, which may also be intergenerational, remember, it might not be a different situation in my own life, then those protective parts are going to limit me from accessing what I want because they're protective. They're loving. They're trying to keep me safe. They don't want me to get hurt like the first time I got hurt when the teacher made the comment or the kid in class made the comment. And I felt shame, or I felt sad or disappointed, right? They're trying to protect me from feeling those feelings again. So they're saying, uh-uh, we're gonna keep you small so that you don't get hurt again, right? Or we're gonna protect you in some other way. It's a very loving mechanism. It's a, a very, like I said, protective system. And this is why we wanna work with the protective system rather than just willpowering our way. and going against the current. You know, sometimes they say courage is feeling the fear and doing it anyway.

Mm-hmm.

If there isn't unconscious resistance, then yeah, that, that could work, and that's great. However, if a part of me believes that I may not be safe if I do this, boy oh boy, that's going to create some real chaos in my body, which is not healthy. It's going to create some negative emotions, and chances are that that change will not last.

But why is society focused on this now versus yesterday? And I, and I wouldn't— let me just add to that. I said society. It's not all of society. It's kind of like if you were to layer society, it would be the top layer of the cake and maybe the middle layer of the cake. And eventually it's going to filter down throughout the cake. You know, it's like putting the syrup or something in. But why are professionals now focusing on this subject more than ever before?

So I can give you my hunch of the answer. Of course, I don't know the answer. My— because this stuff has been around for some time. I mean, you've got books like Think and Grow Rich and things like that that have been around from the '20s and '30s, right? So the concept of the power of the subconscious mind and reprogramming and, you know, you become what you believe, kind of, you know, as a man thinketh, kind of, you know, it's been around for a long time. So now there is more research. So number one, there's neuroscience research proving that we can in fact do it.

Mm-hmm.

And, and there's more research about how to do it. So for example, if I'm wiring in a new belief and I combine that with Havening techniques, which is another modality that I teach, it accelerates the neuroplasticity, you know. So there are ways that we can essentially hack or, you know, accelerate the rewiring process. And we also have research on the energetics of change. So I'm a trainer with the Institute of HeartMath, and we talk about the field, the energy that is radiated from our heart to the field, this electromagnetic energy, you know, into this field. And it's made up of electrical energy, which are thoughts, and magnetic energy, which are emotions, right? So what I think and how I feel gets radiated, and then it essentially impacts my life because it has an effect on the nervous system of other people, number one. So if I wanted, you know, you to— let's say you were interviewing me for a job, and I want you to trust me and believe in me, but I don't truly believe that I'm the best candidate or a good candidate or that I really want it. That unconsciously is going to get radiated like a TV or a radio transmission tower, and your nervous system will pick up on that. That's gonna come in through your heart, go up the vagal nerve to the thalamus in your brain where it will become conscious. And you may not know why you just don't feel it with this candidate, but you will just have that gut feel that I'm not the right person for the job, even if my resume and LinkedIn profile are perfect. Right? So the idea here is—

But, but Okay, I grant you that there's a lot more research now. We have a lot more tools to do that research. But I don't believe— this is my belief— that the fact that we have more scientific evidence is a causation for this to blow up. I don't want to say cult, blow up like a trend. You know, it's everybody is involved in mindset. Now, I have a theory that it might be the result of COVID Somehow I'm linking the— you know, before COVID we— We were— we believed in terra firma. COVID came and just shook our world and united us and separated us at the same time. And people who were working said, wait a second, there's a new alternative, and started from an office and started to reexamine their beliefs And what they felt they could accomplish and how they felt they can accomplish it. And they started to talk to their children about it. And they started to say, why do I need to be a puppet? What's making me— what made me feel comfortable as a puppet for some company? And organizational leaders, don't take this negatively. I'm speaking metaphorically. And so people started to examine the way they were thinking. They interacted with people on Zoom. And while many people said, oh, Zoom is causing us to not connect with people, I firmly believe that we connected more with people on Zoom because all of a sudden now I could see how you live. I could see you have a justice scale in your house. And why do you have that? And what What's going on? Why do you have a globe right next to it? And my God, she reads a lot. You know, so all of a sudden I'm connected with you on a personal basis. And now I'm thinking, well, you know, she has time to read all those books. I'd like to have that time. And she's doing well in her firm. What has been holding me back? So you see, there's a whole roller coaster that starts in your thinking. And I believe that this pandemic, and now we went through 5 pandemics, caused us to all of a sudden examine closer.

Yes, I agree. And I believe that it's a combination of different things. So when I talked about the science, that has helped for a lot of people that are very analytical thinkers that may have been very skeptical because when you see the science, and then of course the science encourages people to, to practice the tools, and then there's results, and then you see your friends and others making changes and doing these things. And of course, that has a ripple effect because you believe it when, you know, people in your circle have, you know, are giving you the evidence that it's possible, because that means it's possible for us too. And I know in my trainings, I've been training this for many years, and I can tell you that pre-COVID, um, you know, there was already kind of an interest and mindset, uh, in the executive kind of circles, right?

Yes.

Um, because, you know, people know that our old way of thinking is not enough. And so what COVID did do, in addition to, you know, reminding us of, um, the fact that we are worthy of having meaning and joy in our life, right? So it created an impetus for change and, you know, again, that momentum. And of course, rewiring certain beliefs about our ability to work from home and da da da, right? There are all kinds of beliefs just from experience that we proved ourselves what's possible, you know. But there's, there is this movement in the world, right? This momentum in the world.

Mm-hmm.

And, and it's, it's a whole global shift towards higher consciousness. Because we are at a, at a point where we could go up or we could go down. And if we individually, which then shifts into collectively, change our level of consciousness, which, which requires a change in our belief systems, it's a must. Then we will be able to access new solutions to our problems. and change the trajectory of our world, right? We've got wars, we've got AI, we've got all this, you know, climate stuff, right? All of these shifts that are happening in our world threatening humanity. So I believe that there is— it's multiple factors that are leading to why people are talking about this. But absolutely, there is a, there is a global shift. It's not just me and you and others. There's something happening that is helping us to Helping us to, if I may say, it's emergent. It's calling us towards something.

It's releasing us. Correct.

From our shackles, from these old ways of being which are just not serving us anymore, not serving humanity. And what it's— this polarization, CB. So polarization on the inside where I mentioned, like, a part of me wants it and a part of me doesn't, like in the rappelling example. Yeah. And that polarization is also in our teams. This is why I teach— when I teach with teams on how to manage the polarization. Some of us want to centralize, some want to decentralize. Some of us want to focus on short-term, some on the long-term, right? There's so many polarizations, right? So it's in the inside, we've got polarization. On the outside, we've got polarization in our teams, our families, our communities. And then globally, there's polarization. My goodness, the wars that are going on. And the only way out, so to speak, out of that. Uh, the only way to, to soften those, you know, this dynamic tension, um, is through love. Is through love. Is through— and all the techniques that I teach are about essentially soothing these parts of us that are very afraid, um, of letting go of the old programs, um, for fear that we may be overwhelmed with these old emotions. That we felt at the time that we took on those burdens. You know, so when we're able to soothe with love, just like I said, like a parental spirit, like I did on that, the top of that cliff, you know, saying, it's all right, Verid, you're all right, everything will be okay. I'm talking to like almost like a mother to my little ones. You're gonna be safe. What are you scared of? And this is all in my inner world, right? I was doing this kind of just sitting and essentially talking to my parts, you know, soothing them, you know.

Mm-hmm.

Activating my heart, radiating ease, ease, ease, calming my body, calming my nervous system, getting into a synchronized, you know, state where my sympathetic and parasympathetic branches of my autonomic nervous system were synchronized. I'm able to think more objectively, right, and see the truth, which is that chances are I'm not going to die. Chances are it'll be fun. I know, and here's what I need to do and da da da da, right, to get myself ready. But I wasn't able to access that when I was incoherent, when I was overwhelmed and, ah, right. So, um, so the idea here is, and, and, you know, CB, I call this, um, the name of the book that's going to be coming out is The Heart of War. Um, really, it's a, it's a path to, to peace in a polarized world, because the only way is through compassion, through listening, curiosity. Because when we have polarization, both sides, even when, when they're extreme, they're operating out of fear, always. And that fear is in some level love-driven, right? It's trying to protect their own, trying to attach to some certainty or control or safety in some way. It's not bad. You with me? It's not a bad part, even if it's doing bad things, bad behaviors, right? If somebody drinks, if somebody hits their spouse or their child, it's a protective mechanism. Yes, it's not a bad part. So when we come in with love and understanding, why are we doing this? What is it that we're trying to protect? What is it? And, and giving our body evidence that we'll be safe by letting this old program go, then it can let us do that. It can transmute that energy. And then we can access guidance and elevate, elevate what I call upward momentum.